Don't hold the rest of the playerbase back coddling your system's inadequacies

[FlameYOL]

I made a post saying the game shouldn't cater to ancient machines, mine included.

 

While shaming the people concerned about the graphical updates. Because how dare we complain about it? Please, SWTOR was never cutting edge graphics even when it released, it'll never get that treatment nor does it need to.

 

One of the good things about it is how accessible the game is. So again, I would like the game to remain accessible and I will complain about people requiring obligatory graphical upgrade, the game already looks decent enough for a 2011 game, if you want better graphics on an MMO go play a game where graphics are the focus. I would have no issue with it if the game was:

 

A) Properly optimized, I don't mind playing it in lower graphics if it means the game is properly optimized unfortunately this is not the case for this one. I have a better time running games I shouldn't even be able to run with my outdated computer than this game.

or

B) If it was an optional graphics patch. This means players who want better graphics could get it while the rest of us don't get screwed over having to deal with even more lag.

 

Unfortunately neither is likely happen. And I'll continue to complain about your complaining of my complaining, because I don't want to get left behind nor any of the people I know who can't afford an upgrade.

[xordevoreaux]

I don't want to get left behind nor any of the people I know who can't afford an upgrade.

 

Including the people on integrated graphics on 2008 machines. You call it a strawman point. I call it holding the game back because someone somewhere is gonna scream that their machine can't handle it, to hell with how old their machine is, and how dare anyone say they may be forced to play a game with updated graphics.

Edited July 30, 2020 by xordevoreaux

[FlameYOL]

Including the people on integrated graphics on 2008 machines. You call it a strawman point. I call it holding the game back because someone somewhere is gonna scream that their machine can't handle it, to hell with how old their machine is, and how dare anyone say they may be forced to play a game with updated graphics.

 

Yes, a strawman point. But good to know you have no empathy for the people who might be left behind just because you want a graphics upgrade, guess I'm done with you and your BS. Yes how dare they, I'm glad we could agree on something.

[xordevoreaux]

Yes, a strawman point. But good to know you have no empathy for the people who might be left behind just because you want a graphics upgrade, guess I'm done with you and your BS. Yes how dare they, I'm glad we could agree on something.

 

I'm on a fixed income. I can't afford to upgrade either. That doesn't mean I selfishly want the game held back for everyone else.

[Tsillah]

Yes, a strawman point. But good to know you have no empathy for the people who might be left behind just because you want a graphics upgrade, guess I'm done with you and your BS. Yes how dare they, I'm glad we could agree on something.

Sounds a bit selfish. Pot calling the kettle black.

[Ardrossan]

The virtue signalling in this forum is so lulzy. iirc we have a forum bingo / drinking game, and we ought to add "selfish" and "empathy" to the squares.

 

Just...step back for a second and imagine how you look from a disinterested pov: We're on a videogame forum and you're judging each other for perceived character flaws based on scant evidence compiled from...conversations around videogames.

 

We're not allowed to discuss politics here but I have to wonder how many people who bemoan lack of player empathy GAF about actual human suffering, not just their petty first world problems. I tend to assume that the more that x person drones on about character flaws on the forum, the less involved they are with irl stuff, which is why they lack perspective.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Ardrossan

[anakkinvadder]

:eek:how this ppl can get droines updates dont theyare so damn god from swtor

[JennyFlynn]

Yes, a strawman point. But good to know you have no empathy for the people who might be left behind just because you want a graphics upgrade, guess I'm done with you and your BS. Yes how dare they, I'm glad we could agree on something.

 

I absolutely sympathize with players on an old system, my own isn't top of the line either. However, I don't believe that's a valid reason not to upgrade the quality of the game. Can you imagine game designers discussing "Well we should lower the quality of our game so those with a 10-year-old PC can enjoy it as well"? I get it, it sucks, and I used to be in a position where I'd have to scrape bits and pieces from 2nd/3rd-hand or trashed PCs together to build my own and at least have something but no developers team should bear that in mind when deciding on the engine and quality for their game. That's just bad business really.

 

Now I don't think SWTOR is in a dire state and while opinions on this forum vary, I've also heard in the past week with new and returning players that they're impressed with the graphics and the way it looks despite how old it is. That they enjoy the ease of access. So that's a plus and for myself, I'm fine with things as they are but I'll never discourage an update either. At least not from the point of "but my PC can't handle it!". I just don't believe that's a good enough reason not to.

[phalczen]

1. It is unlikely that the game will get an overhaul that would rise to the level of requiring SLI-linked cards, multiple cores, DirectX12, or any of the latest technologies that are part of the latest triple-A releases. However, it is likely that smaller graphical improvements and optimizations will continue to occur, because they have in the past. Denying this is just as irrational as insisting that "the only thing that can save the game is an engine upgrade."

 

2. It is an unreasonable expectation to think that a game you play, with ongoing support, will work on your old computer indefinitely. If Microsoft cannot even continue support of older versions of its operating system (because those machines were incapable of upgrading to windows 10), why would you expect a video game company, with far less resources and a far smaller user base, to do the same? Security and performance are only two of many reasons why old tech cannot be supported indefinitely. We've already seen serious issues with expired security certificates for SWTOR on older versions of Windows no longer supported by Microsoft.

[DarkAnnmarie]

If Microsoft cannot even continue support of older versions of its operating system

 

I don't agree or disagree with your post, but the next bit just popped in to my head while reading it...lol

 

It's not that they can't, it's that they won't. If they don't support the older versions, people will be forced to upgrade, more money for them, less to worry about, etc. There was a very good video on youtube about it. (sorry slightly off topic)

Edited July 30, 2020 by DarkAnnmarie

[AceMasterSoul]

• Fixing longstanding bugs
  
• Fixing more recent bugs
  
• Solving longstanding problems
  
• QoL improvements
  
• Restoring *Man with the Steel Voice NPC*
  

 

All these things should be prioritized before a graphical update.

 

I Agree with this.

[FlameYOL]

Sounds a bit selfish. Pot calling the kettle black.

Ah yes I am the selfish one here, totally.

 

The virtue signalling in this forum is so lulzy. iirc we have a forum bingo / drinking game, and we ought to add "selfish" and "empathy" to the squares.

 

Just...step back for a second and imagine how you look from a disinterested pov: We're on a videogame forum and you're judging each other for perceived character flaws based on scant evidence compiled from...conversations around videogames.

 

We're not allowed to discuss politics here but I have to wonder how many people who bemoan lack of player empathy GAF about actual human suffering, not just their petty first world problems. I tend to assume that the more that x person drones on about character flaws on the forum, the less involved they are with irl stuff, which is why they lack perspective.

I can't speak for others but I do at least try to help people in need IRL, unfortunately I don't always have the money for it but whenever I have something extra I'm more than willing to give. And first world problems definitely don't apply to me, more like third world problems.

 

I absolutely sympathize with players on an old system, my own isn't top of the line either. However, I don't believe that's a valid reason not to upgrade the quality of the game. Can you imagine game designers discussing "Well we should lower the quality of our game so those with a 10-year-old PC can enjoy it as well"? I get it, it sucks, and I used to be in a position where I'd have to scrape bits and pieces from 2nd/3rd-hand or trashed PCs together to build my own and at least have something but no developers team should bear that in mind when deciding on the engine and quality for their game. That's just bad business really.

 

Now I don't think SWTOR is in a dire state and while opinions on this forum vary, I've also heard in the past week with new and returning players that they're impressed with the graphics and the way it looks despite how old it is. That they enjoy the ease of access. So that's a plus and for myself, I'm fine with things as they are but I'll never discourage an update either. At least not from the point of "but my PC can't handle it!". I just don't believe that's a good enough reason not to.

 

I can understand wanting graphics to be better but like I said I would also like not to be left behind and have to upgrade just for an 2011 game, I can't even afford used stuff for a completely new PC so if they were to do a full HD revamp of the game that made the minimum system requirements be that of a modern gaming PC I wouldn't even be able to play the game anymore. If they made the game better optimized newer better graphics wouldn't concern me at all because at best I would have to settle a few things lower but the game would still run well despite the upgraded "look" but every time they've upgraded the graphics in the past lag gets worse and worse, hence why I said the focus should be on optimizing what we currently have before we add yet another layer of things on it, especially when it comes to multiplayer content. If they're able to make so older system can run it on low at stable frame rates then great, go ahead and make the upgrades but unfortunately that's not the case, so I will defend not doing massive graphical upgrades until they prove they can properly optimize them before going live so people like me don't get the short end of the stick. We deserve to play the game as much as everyone else, and to voice our concerns about possible graphical upgrades.

[Ardrossan]

I can't speak for others but I do at least try to help people in need IRL, unfortunately I don't always have the money for it but whenever I have something extra I'm more than willing to give. And first world problems definitely don't apply to me, more like third world problems.

 

Dude, unlike all the other "big personalities" in this thread, I actually like and respect your pov. So, with that being said...how do you miss the fact that this is a troll thread? That it was clearly designed to be a troll thread from the getgo? Does it make any sense to you that we're having this argument now, instead of after they do the thing? The only reason to talk about it now is to start a fight.

 

Also, are we really taking seriously that BW will be doing any sweeping graphical changes? They can't even fix emp slots without requiring three patches. If we have anything to complain about it over this in the future, it will be that none of us can play because they broke the drat game, not that only some of us can play. And not coincidentally, OP made a thread about that exact point:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=982510

Edited July 30, 2020 by Ardrossan

[FlameYOL]

Dude, unlike all the other "big personalities" in this thread, I actually like and respect your pov. So, with that being said...how do you miss the fact that this is a troll thread? That it was clearly designed to be a troll thread from the getgo? Does it make any sense to you that we're having this argument now, instead of after they do the thing? The only reason to talk about it now is to start a fight.

 

Also, are we really taking seriously that BW will be doing any sweeping graphical changes? They can't even fix emp slots without requiring three patches. If we have anything to complain about it over this in the future, it will be that none of us can play because they broke the drat game, not that only some of us can play. And not coincidentally, OP made a thread about that exact point:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=982510

 

Poe's law, I've seen people legitimately asking for graphical overhauls to make the game look more modern, though yeah looking back this is an attempt at starting argument... I guess I completely fell for it didn't I:tran_tongue:.

[TrixxieTriss]

Okay, since some people are confused by my post, I apologize. It comes down this:

 

1. I do not have God's gift to gaming computers. Any update that occurs may hamper me to an extent, whatever that extent may be, just as it would other players.

 

2. That does not mean I want to see EA halt or abandon plans for updates because people with aging, underequipped, underpowered computers scream on the forums for them not to make the changes.

 

Wouldn’t you prefer they fix the game first of bugs and then prove they can release a few patches without any bugs?

Because if they start messing around with graphics updates, imagine the bugs we have will quadruple and then quadruple again like Tribbles

We’d end up playing Star Wars.: Invasion of the Tribbles (bugs)

[Lhancelot]

Okay, since some people are confused by my post, I apologize. It comes down this:

 

1. I do not have God's gift to gaming computers. Any update that occurs may hamper me to an extent, whatever that extent may be, just as it would other players.

 

2. That does not mean I want to see EA halt or abandon plans for updates because people with aging, underequipped, underpowered computers scream on the forums for them not to make the changes.

 

I see, that's why it was confusing you presented it as a solution to improve the game yet say you'd like it to happen even though it would make the game worse for you. Not an intuitive read, haha.

 

NP though generally speaking your posts are always very concise and excellently written! So don't think I was trying to criticize your writing, that's not the case at all.

 

Don't worry, BW isn't going to do any large changes like this, anyway haha. The costs alone will keep them from doing it, but in reality they have done nothing to make the game better graphically that I can tell so 10 years into this, I don't see it happening.

 

Also, anything that could potentially cost them subs like having a game that is too advanced for aging PCs, they are not doing that. That's part of a game's success is how compatible it is with the technology gamers are using and have available.

[xordevoreaux]

Wouldn’t you prefer they fix the game first of bugs and then prove they can release a few patches without any bugs?

Because if they start messing around with graphics updates, imagine the bugs we have will quadruple and then quadruple again like Tribbles

We’d end up playing Star Wars.: Invasion of the Tribbles (bugs)

 

I'm reacting to BW's thread about possible upcoming world design changes.

 

Considering that means attention to some bugs may take a back seat to plans to update playability on starter planets, don't expect a lot of bugs to get fixed elsewhere.

 

So, with that expectation (or lack?), my motivation for posting about any upcoming plans to change world design now was so that we might get our voices into the mix ahead of any such changes, BEFORE devs decide to put a lock on whatever they're going to do, because we all know how much EA pays attention to PTS posts once changes are in place.

 

It's a matter of getting ahead of that momentum.

 

Yes, in many posts, I say let's get the bugs fixed first. But the dogwhistle from the world design post to me says the investment has swerved toward an update, not bug fixing, so let's put our energy toward what they've stated that they're going to do, not what we hope that they're going to do.

 

I don't believe I've ever seen a post from Musco saying hey folks, we're gonna fix every single bug logged in the bug tracker since the dawn of time. It's a crap shoot, then, a wait-and-see game, to wonder when bug fixes will drop.

 

But they've stated out loud an intention to update the world design of starter planets.

 

SO, my point to them in making this post is don't break two legs on the horse just because some people don't have a big enough saddle. Encourage EA to modernize all they can while they're motivated to do it.

Edited July 30, 2020 by xordevoreaux

[phalczen]

Wouldn’t you prefer they fix the game first of bugs and then prove they can release a few patches without any bugs?

Because if they start messing around with graphics updates, imagine the bugs we have will quadruple and then quadruple again like Tribbles

We’d end up playing Star Wars.: Invasion of the Tribbles (bugs)

 

I would prefer that we get everything: content, bug fixes, performance optimizations.

 

For example, I recently took an agent through his story and then through SoR prologue up through the class-specific quest on Rishi, and then started KOTFE. Lana Beniko then and now is markedly different, Theron Shan is not. I would like to see them update the textures for Lana to match the KOTFE-and-beyond version. I mean, they acknowledged that was an issue but left it implied that some day they would try to fix it.

 

I would love to see the performance issues resolved on the Huttball maps you so frequently malign, because I enjoy Huttball.

 

I would like to see the Avalanche Heavy Tank's extreme knockoff protection fixed, the missing datacron decorations restored to champion mobs in planetary heroics, the missing Conquered Exarch bracers from Paladins in heroic star fortresses, the missing cutscenes from just about every heroic restored, and countless other bugs that have been catalogued over the years.

 

Weapon-outfit-designer, saved utility choices, and other such QoL additions are hoped for as well.

 

And lastly, I'd like to see a balanced Infiltrator class and an escort-style GSF map, or capital ship assault, or any new GSF content that adds some variety to one of my favorite parts of the game.

 

It's unreasonable to think these things could be accomplished in 1 month, but in 6? 12? That's not so unreasonable. You have not because you ask not.

 

And yes, I'm aware of the fact that it took 3 patches to fix the Emperor's Grace slots, as well as the reported-on-PTS broken daily missions. I am disappointed in that. I think its terribly sloppy, especially since the daily mission was known prior to going live. I expect better.

 

I think they should send out a poll question to all current subscribers and all preferred/FtP who have logged in and average of once a week in the past 24 weeks, opened ended, asking about a variety of these hopes.

[Tofu_Shark]

1. It is unlikely that the game will get an overhaul that would rise to the level of requiring SLI-linked cards, multiple cores, DirectX12, or any of the latest technologies that are part of the latest triple-A releases. However, it is likely that smaller graphical improvements and optimizations will continue to occur, because they have in the past. Denying this is just as irrational as insisting that "the only thing that can save the game is an engine upgrade."

 

2. It is an unreasonable expectation to think that a game you play, with ongoing support, will work on your old computer indefinitely. If Microsoft cannot even continue support of older versions of its operating system (because those machines were incapable of upgrading to windows 10), why would you expect a video game company, with far less resources and a far smaller user base, to do the same? Security and performance are only two of many reasons why old tech cannot be supported indefinitely. We've already seen serious issues with expired security certificates for SWTOR on older versions of Windows no longer supported by Microsoft.

1. I know this is probably hyperbole, but no game should require dual GPUs to run at max settings. Dual GPUs, should only increase performance on max settings.
    
    
   
2. Microsoft chose to not support the latest hardware on their older versions of Windows, even though the manufacturers wrote drivers, so they could run it. It's because Microsoft wanted to push everyone to Windows 10, so they could monetize all the personal information they're vacu-sucking on everyone. Just look at how you can get Ryzen CPUs working on Windows 7 with a USB workaround, because Microsoft refused to provide USB drivers for the new motherboards that support the new CPUs.
   

 

I Agree with this.

You edited my quote. Man with the Steel Voice is covered under "restoring all removed content." Even though we seem to be in agreement, I don't appreciate that.

 

I'd also like to add:

 

 

• Performance Optimization
  

 

To my list, as a few thread participants have mentioned.

 

It Could be worse...

 

BW & EA may decide to just transfer everything to new servers and force us all to start from square one even though the important things like collections and subscription service would stay the same.

That's not how server migrations work.

Edited July 31, 2020 by Tofu_Shark

[AceMasterSoul]

You edited my quote. Man with the Steel Voice is covered under "restoring all removed content." Even though we seem to be in agreement, I don't appreciate that.

I mean, I did put star keys in front and behind the words I edited... Next time I'll put brackets.

[Tsillah]

Ah yes I am the selfish one here, totally.

Putting your needs above the needs of others makes you a selfish person. I find it an exaggeration to instantly going to THE selfish one as if you'd be alone.

 

If the game benefits from a graphical upgrade would you be against it? We have an influx of Steam players now and well some of them comment on the graphics feeling dated. So perhaps a scenario might be that BioWare feel it would be a good thing for the future of the game to upgrade it. That'd be the greater good in essence. You would be against that then?

 

By the way, I'm not saying that the above scenario is true but I'm trying to ascertain how far you would take your opinion.

[TrixxieTriss]

I would prefer that we get everything: content, bug fixes, performance optimizations.

 

For example, I recently took an agent through his story and then through SoR prologue up through the class-specific quest on Rishi, and then started KOTFE. Lana Beniko then and now is markedly different, Theron Shan is not. I would like to see them update the textures for Lana to match the KOTFE-and-beyond version. I mean, they acknowledged that was an issue but left it implied that some day they would try to fix it.

 

I would love to see the performance issues resolved on the Huttball maps you so frequently malign, because I enjoy Huttball.

 

I would like to see the Avalanche Heavy Tank's extreme knockoff protection fixed, the missing datacron decorations restored to champion mobs in planetary heroics, the missing Conquered Exarch bracers from Paladins in heroic star fortresses, the missing cutscenes from just about every heroic restored, and countless other bugs that have been catalogued over the years.

 

Weapon-outfit-designer, saved utility choices, and other such QoL additions are hoped for as well.

 

And lastly, I'd like to see a balanced Infiltrator class and an escort-style GSF map, or capital ship assault, or any new GSF content that adds some variety to one of my favorite parts of the game.

 

It's unreasonable to think these things could be accomplished in 1 month, but in 6? 12? That's not so unreasonable. You have not because you ask not.

 

And yes, I'm aware of the fact that it took 3 patches to fix the Emperor's Grace slots, as well as the reported-on-PTS broken daily missions. I am disappointed in that. I think its terribly sloppy, especially since the daily mission was known prior to going live. I expect better.

 

I think they should send out a poll question to all current subscribers and all preferred/FtP who have logged in and average of once a week in the past 24 weeks, opened ended, asking about a variety of these hopes.

 

I don’t disagree, I’m keen to have everything too. I’m just pointing out the obvious. Bioware won’t do everything. They’ll pick one thing and focus on that at the expense of everything else. You know that and I know that because we’ve been here long enough to have witnessed it over and over.

 

So logically it would be better to follow a course that first stabilises the game of bugs and performance and make sure their current coders have a handle on not making more bugs when they release any changes to anything,

 

Once they can prove they can do that and the bugs are mostly squashed and system performance improved, then I’m all for the next steps. Wether that’s upgrades to graphics or new expansion or what ever they deem players want (even when we don’t ).

 

You just shouldn’t build on a faulty foundations (it’s common sense) and it’s what they’ve been doing for so long now that we have more bugs than ever and they can’t even release a bug patch that doesn’t have bugs in it.

 

When that’s done, bring on the updates to everything. But do it step by step and make sure any bugs are fixed along the way and not abandoned to move onto the next project. A solid foundation will allow a faster pace of development. A rocky base just slows them down cause they are always having to plug bigger fixers more often.

[Lhancelot]

I wish they would just shock the world and redo the game's entire engine, update it even if that meant gutting the monster they have in now and totally replacing it.

 

Imagine the freedom and ability to grow if this game had a competent engine driving it.

Edited July 31, 2020 by Lhancelot

[DarkTergon]

I wish they would just shock the world and redo the game's entire engine, update it even if that meant gutting the monster they have in now and totally replacing it.

 

Imagine the freedom and ability to grow if this game had a competent engine driving it.

 

What's the best engine out there?

[JediQuaker]

1. I do not have God's gift to gaming computers. Any update that occurs may hamper me to an extent, whatever that extent may be, just as it would other players.

SWTOR is very CPU bound. Any 'engine' update should make older computers work even better.

Graphics updates should mostly only affect those who have very bottom end graphics such as integrated graphics or very low end graphics cards. In most cases, graphics levels can be set, so improved graphics seldom results in the inability to play the game.

 

For example, you often see game reviews these days where they set the graphics to 'max' or 'ultra' on an RTX 2080 or whatever, but you can get away with a much lower tier graphics card if the graphics are just set to medium or low and some goodies are turned off (like "Bloom" or "Shadows" in this game.)