Master Mode Balance Changes

[onemoreround]

It's time for a 4th mode of difficulty, HM has become far too easy with too bigger gap to nightmare. Making nim easier is totally the wrong approach & just makes the game boring again. If veteran stacks can be manipulated so easily then just release two modes of nim, same mechanics one with some stacks one without, everyone happy & a much more gradual step up between the modes. Should also help retain people in the game during the quite content times with more progression available. Edited March 7, 2020 by onemoreround

[JulWolle]

nim without stacks is pretty balanced actually except a few fights were (mainly) adds do a bit too much damage to raid. it was not really a dps issue or hps issue but that certain things hit harder than even when these were released.

 

bw never does things subtly though so if it was on one end after they got rid of stacks, now it will be somewhat too easy again if they blanket buff our stats back.

 

but base line is that it is old content so who cares.

 

If nim is pretty balanced why is noone running "my challenge" or in other words is running without the op classes? balanced means (for me) that "almost" everything is viable. I don´t expect double sabo heal + 4 assa dds to be viable, but make more classes able to realistically run the content

[Atzibob]

Great! I might be able to play "non meta classes" after that patch again in NIM.

I really like the upcoming change!

 

As long as this game has no balance between its classes (PVE&PVP) its not doable for non meta classes without that stacks - unless youre raiding with the best 0.2% best players in this game!

 

But even this 0,2% dislike this patch. You guys seem not to realize, that this 0,2% are a very small piece of the game, even tho, that you 0,2% are even that important for the game then everybody else but PLEASE understand, that "WE" want content to raid on like you!

 

I think, if you want to try harder then ever, the best option for it would be, that we could remove the VET stacks on our own - if we want. So if you guys want to have a very hard experience, you could remove it by yourself!

Ofc the devs could put archievements into the game, for finishing a raid without stacks i guess.

So you guys could show everyone, what a beast you are on this game^^.

 

But i think thats oftopic.

 

Back to topic:

Me and my guild are really excited and we cant hold much longer to continue our progressing in NIM without the optimal classes.

And i gotta say, iam not a casual, i got alls ops clear in nim unless gods and dxun, several timesruns wich i completed earlier days, without stacks. I think casuals shouldnt be able to do kind of OPS like this but guys,casuals are wiping in SM, some of them in HC, some casuals finished Nefra Nim, 99% wiped on draxus, 0% finished a NIM op as casual yet.

 

This upcoming changes wont make casuals doing NiM ops!

But it will make me and others like me to do a progress in NiM´s. I think im in the top 5% of players ingame and i think clearing NiMs should be doable for me! (even tho its doable without stacks but not on all classes) !

And i really dont want to be forced to play classes i dont want to play! Thank you for realizing, that the removal from the stacks was a bit too fast without balancing classes and stuff around this removal!

 

I really look forward for the upcoming blancing patches and after its balanced maybe a removal of the stacks!

Thank you devs!

[Ubarave]

Great! I might be able to play "non meta classes" after that patch again in NIM.

I really like the upcoming change!

 

...

 

Thank you devs!

 

I mean... hats off to the devs! They managed to take 30 stacks out of NiM and then re-insert 2 stacks to placate the whiners.

 

Somehow, theres a big group of people out there that thinks this tiny change is gonna take us back to 6.0 or late 5.x difficulty.

 

If you cant kill draxus right now, this aint gonna change that.

[ZolanSilverspear]

I mean... hats off to the devs! They managed to take 30 stacks out of NiM and then re-insert 2 stacks to placate the whiners.

 

Somehow, theres a big group of people out there that thinks this tiny change is gonna take us back to 6.0 or late 5.x difficulty.

 

If you cant kill draxus right now, this aint gonna change that.

 

30 stacks correspended to a nerf of about %20 in dps and healing. Power being what it is, should be a rough direct boost, thus an increase of %5 power, should reflect as about %4. Of course this a very huge generalisation that doesn't take into classes and abilities. With the changes to classes it is very difficult to say where the actual balance will be, it will take time to see that.

 

In essence, and burrowing your crude anology, They managed to take 30 stacks out of NiM and then re-insert 6 stacks to placate the whiners. I would think it is an attempt to balance things, clearly you disagree.

 

If it works similar to theory in reality (difficult to predict with the multitude of class changes and some yet to be seen), yes it will allow you to kill draxus, if you can't kill it now. It will still be more difficult though.

Edited March 8, 2020 by ZolanSilverspear

[DarthEndonae]

In my opinion, the fights as they currently are on Live are closer to how the raids should be than they were with Veteran's Edge. I think the biggest issue right now on live is that things hit a little too hard. Some things that used to be fine with a single DCD now take two and the tanks are more prone to getting killed due to just regular damage. I will say it's a bit unclear how much of this is just from tanks and healers having it easy in 5.0, but I think at least for now it would be good if things didn't hit quite as hard. I don't mind the adds hitting as hard as they do, I like that they're often enough of a nuisance to force us to hard swap to them instead of just waiting for DoT spread and other built-in AoE to kill them and I like that they have enough HP that it still takes a moment to kill them. I think there should be a greater distinction between specific adds though as to which are supposed to be killed by burst (and not by DoT specs) and which are better served with AoE.

 

I would prefer that the DPS classes were balanced such that you aren't forced to bring the FOTM. Every single class should have at least 1 DPS spec that is viable on every fight and each spec should be viable on many fights. I think it's reasonable to make the DPS learn both their burst and DoT spec and demand that they use a specific one for a specific fight, but I don't think anyone should have to fully change classes to clear any boss. A lot of that really comes down to just restricting the spread of DPS and making sure fights don't favor a specific capability of a specific class too much.

 

I also think that you guys need to make a decision on how impactful you want the debuffs to be in determining class compositions. Right now, the armor debuff has a much larger impact than any other debuffs. Either the other debuffs should be made as impactful by reducing the damage dealt by each damage type and increasing the percentage by which the debuff makes the affected target take more damage, or attacks that are affected by armor need to deal more damage and the armor debuff should provide a proportionately smaller amount of damage. I'm personally in favor of the latter.

[Kanci]

I think the biggest problem we have now with operations is the missing level between hard mode and master mode. You can play master mode with crystal, but that's like cheating, call it baby master mode or even harder hard mode and most people would be fine with that. And people have a chance to learn something in this master mode with stacks.

 

The other problem is the class balancing, I always feel bad in company of power techs and lightning sorc, apart of the moments where I also play those classes.

 

Focus on those two things and skip bouncing from one extreme to other, or just announce that you're doing A/B testing and everybody has to calm down :-D.

[Rion_Starkiller]

SM>VM>MM>NiM?

 

We can dream can't we?

[thedogwentmeow]

SM>VM>MM>NiM?

 

We can dream can't we?

Or instead of adding a new difficulty mode, just give us the ability to click off stacks. everyone gets the difficulty they want and ideally doesn't take weeks to integrate.

 

Not to mention that any player who wanted a challenge could have just taken off their gear, or agreed as a group to not cheese the mechanics

 

These MMs are, with or without stacks, the hardest content in the game. they're so "easy" to some players because those players have had literal years of practice on them and know absolutely everything there is to possibly know about the mechanics. Naturally that knowledge leaks out to everyone else and makes the operations easier for everyone else as well. After cheeses and strats have been developed for a fight, no reasonable damage increase or reduction will add any real difficulty bump because 8 years of experience can't be beat with just some bigger numbers

 

the real way to increase difficulty would be to add more mechanics to a fight, but that takes dev time. Dev time that could be going towards NEW operations with NEW fights, that benefit more people than just the 0.5% that play nightmare ops. Let old operations be old and not designed for classes that we play today. if an operation is too easy for the current meta, work on one that challenges your players while still offering the option to play the now broken content. Even if that operation takes 6 months to complete, its better than players still playing the same 10 operations for another 10 years

[Erdling]

I think the main problem is the lack of communication with the players.

Another problem is that the dev's don't play the game themselves.

 

how do I get it?

Well, as I wrote in another thread, there is a massive healer problem, which you seem to ignore here.

 

the sets are usually more than just laughable, and even if there is a super set, it is very difficult to get.

 

you have doubled the life pool, roughly doubled the damage, but now it comes, healing only increased by 20-30%. seen from level 70 to 75.

 

outside we leave the sets or enhancements all the time, just modded items with good mods.

now you just go to a 70s area, as a healer, look at all the skills, then to 75 and do the same.

 

The result is that all skills at level 70 heal around 8-10% of maximum life, at level 75 you stand at 4-5% of maximum life

 

so was the healing halved? Why ?

 

it doesn't matter which class you look at.

 

Really speaking, someone has to have level 75 with 306 equip, then maximum values ​​at level, i.e. quasi 258 values, everything that should be totally easy to 70.

Unfortunately, fact is, does not fit either.

have now tested enough to make this statement and enough confirmation from other players.

on 75 everything has to be relatively easy, since you wear the highest equip, after that nothing comes!

So only masters should have a certain claim for this equipment stand, namely the implementation of the tactics.

 

So adapting the master modes is completely unnecessary!

 

 

it may be that some sets have to be reduced a bit, but it can't work that way. as a healer you only feel fooled that even some self-healings from non-healing classes are stronger than what a healer can do in time.

 

So dear programmers, please go the right way and take a look at all the values!

there is a lot going on, be it healing values, or some boss fights etc.

thank you for reading . hope for a quick recovery.

[mrphstar]

I think the main problem is the lack of communication with the players.

Another problem is that the dev's don't play the game themselves.

 

how do I get it?

Well, as I wrote in another thread, there is a massive healer problem, which you seem to ignore here.

 

the sets are usually more than just laughable, and even if there is a super set, it is very difficult to get.

 

you have doubled the life pool, roughly doubled the damage, but now it comes, healing only increased by 20-30%. seen from level 70 to 75.

 

outside we leave the sets or enhancements all the time, just modded items with good mods.

now you just go to a 70s area, as a healer, look at all the skills, then to 75 and do the same.

 

The result is that all skills at level 70 heal around 8-10% of maximum life, at level 75 you stand at 4-5% of maximum life

 

so was the healing halved? Why ?

 

it doesn't matter which class you look at.

 

Really speaking, someone has to have level 75 with 306 equip, then maximum values ​​at level, i.e. quasi 258 values, everything that should be totally easy to 70.

Unfortunately, fact is, does not fit either.

have now tested enough to make this statement and enough confirmation from other players.

on 75 everything has to be relatively easy, since you wear the highest equip, after that nothing comes!

So only masters should have a certain claim for this equipment stand, namely the implementation of the tactics.

 

So adapting the master modes is completely unnecessary!

 

 

it may be that some sets have to be reduced a bit, but it can't work that way. as a healer you only feel fooled that even some self-healings from non-healing classes are stronger than what a healer can do in time.

 

So dear programmers, please go the right way and take a look at all the values!

there is a lot going on, be it healing values, or some boss fights etc.

thank you for reading . hope for a quick recovery.

 

Sorry but imo you totaly missed the point here.

healers where overperforming in 5.X, they are absolutly fine now. i know some players hit a wall right now, cuz they are used to 5.X output, but i see the really good healers adapting pretty fast and still manage to put out enough hps/ehps even w/o stacks.

 

the real problem are some rare occasions where certain boss damage profiles can literally one shot your (sin) tanks, operator X in asa i.e.

but no hps buff will help with that. most of other spike dtps are caused by bad played mechanics and people are forced to play them correct again w/o stacks, which is a good thing imo.

 

but as i and many others said in all these threads about stacks, the real problem is that you A) kinda have to play meta classes to clear some bosses and B) many players who could clear 6.1 legacy nim have been playing this content for more than 5 years and could adapt quickly.

 

people/groups who are bound to unoptimal class compositions or are new to NiM raiding will struggle and certainly hit a wall when progressing through legacy NIM w/o stacks at some point. that has a huge impact on the raiding community already by losing players out of frusttration and beeing unable to "train" new group members or find random pugs for 5 year old content when your main group takes a day off i.e.

but as i said, healers arent the main problem here.

 

as mentioned in previos threads i would like to have the skill gap between HM with stacks and NiM w/o them shortened, either by removing HM stacks as well to give people a playground to get a feeling for NiM dtps/hps/dps checks again, or by letting people chose their difficulty by adjusting stacks manually.

 

BW again chose the easiest way by passively nerfing NiM again, which certainly is a step in the right direction, but from the wrong point imho.

anyway, i think players who where able to clear 6.1 legacy NiM have done that already, so they had their fun and i like that the old content will be opened to a wider range of players again.

[RikuvonDrake]

lots of comments about everything without any real substance

 

with healers being nerfed on the pts, sorc changes doesn't improve output to a massive degree and operatives gets a pretty heavy nerf as well as hopefully some merc changes coming as well, it seems Bioware thinks that healers are overperforming. so if you are a healer now and having issues keeping up, you might need to improve a bit more if you wanna continue raiding nightmare after the changes

[AllisonLightning]

with healers being nerfed on the pts, sorc changes doesn't improve output to a massive degree and operatives gets a pretty heavy nerf as well as hopefully some merc changes coming as well, it seems Bioware thinks that healers are overperforming. so if you are a healer now and having issues keeping up, you might need to improve a bit more if you wanna continue raiding nightmare after the changes

 

Wouldn't it be ironic if healers perform on the same level as they do now or worse, with the Master Mode buff and everything. I really wouldn't care as long as it didn't lead to the exclusion of any of the healer classes (they can't balance worth a damn so I'm making noise for my main class) but anyone raiding on NiM currently? If healing pre buff is easier than healing post MM buff, then there would be a problem given their supposed intention, at most it should equalize out. I'm going off your statement and haven't touched PTS (I'll be doing that tomorrow night) but it'd be kinda strange for them to make healing more difficult than no stacks healing- kinda like they should give us the 'mathmatically impossible Dread Guards'... for science.

 

Guess they really want people to die in PvP.

[MaximusRex]

The recent removal of Veteran’s Edge stacks has caused a bit of commotion in the community over the proper balancing of Master Mode content.

 

The problem with the current discussion is that it is mostly overlooking multiple issues that the game is facing in the Ops space and mostly focusing on is Master Mode content too easy or too hard.

The current biggest issue is Ops rewards are severely lacking. With best in slot gear being obtainable almost everywhere, which I personally think is a good change, doing ops and killing a boss really doesn’t get you anything. Many of the drops aren’t even 306, maybe you’ll get lucky and get a set item someone is interested in, but otherwise there is no reward other than the thrill of progression. Dxun Veteran Mode is especially bad as there don’t seem to even be decorations to help make the loot table more interesting. BioWare needs to take a serious look at rewards for Ops content at all levels, even if they are mostly cosmetic, like unique mounts, decos, and visual gear sets.

 

Already mentioned in this thread, the gap between Veteran Mode and Master Mode is too extreme. Some have suggested a 4th mode, but this comes back to the discussion about Ops rewards, more modes require more rewards, otherwise there is no point to running higher tier content. The other issue here is how much dev time do we as players really want to be spent on old content that could be spent on new content? At the end of the day BioWare has to decide which group it is better to cater too, likely based on how large and loyal each group is. Should they favor Master Mode focused groups that already find that content to not be very difficult, or should they focus on catering to players that fall in between Veteran Mode and Master Mode by making Master Modes a bit more accessible to the top end of the Veteran Mode curve? Which group is larger and more likely to stick around if their needs are catered too? I can guess, but only BioWare has that data, they should use it accordingly.

 

The real bantha in the room is stat capping vs stat scaling old content. As long as older content is stat capped it forces two different gearing strategies for old vs new content, and it devalues sensible gear improvements in favor of a system were DPS and Healers wear Tanking Mods and Tanks try to stack power. While you obviously don’t want to allow the full stats on level 75 gear to be used in level 70 content, hard capping stats just doesn’t seem to be a good answer. In my opinion stats should be scaled down based on the percentage of change of the base stat allocation, allowing improvements in player gear stats to directly matter in all content. As a theoretical example not using actual in game stat values, say level 75 base values are double those of level 70, then when doing level 70 content our stats should be scaled down by half, with a floor value instead of a cap value, so that players that aren’t 75 or are still gearing don’t wind up with worse stats then they should have for the content.

 

If BioWare doesn’t look at the full gambit of problems that the community faces in ops content they are asking for a population drop to occur, and that isn’t good for anyone.

[Erdling]

@mrphstar thank you for not even reading my answer. I was generally referring to the group content.

the healer and dds were very strong is completely clear, since the equip was increased again by the completely unnecessary increase to 258.

only that is no reason to reduce the healers to about 50% of their healing power.

that some can do it does not mean that it is right at the moment.

I could go further, but that was already up there.

 

it's about the whole group content, so pvp, fps and ops.

no idea why you are against bringing the healers back to their original state.

I would have a guess, but let's leave it. we are talking about high-end equipment that normally comes from master mode. everything else should be easy.

 

regarding the subject: was already in my other answer