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Return Veteran's Edge stacks to NIM Raids


theJudeAbides

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From reading your previous post it seems you're the main one trolling the entire thread. Good job. And it's broken.

 

I mean when there is legit a lot of people including my team being able to kill bosses in old nims & even gods without any stacks, people are pugging the raids with ease & then you're claiming to have nim(old school) raiders unable to heal/clear things with the massively overpowered VE stacks including not being able to see that in 3.0 you actually out level the operation & could clear it with less than 8 raiders easily & then you are trying to compare those raids? that clearly shows lack of understanding from your part.

 

Just because you claim that you could clear those raids in 3.0(which would be sad if you wouldnt be cuz everyone literally could do that very easily) that simply doesn't mean that the raids was in its proper state & difficulty at that time you say you did those raids, which everyone knows or at least that it was I thought until now, this is the first time i actually see someone even trying to compare 3.0 to pff.. anything else actually.

You don't see the advantage when you are being several levels above the bosses?

 

The only thing broken here is the people crying just because the raids is not a massive faceroll anymore & actually requires something from the players to be able clear, just like nim is supposed to be.

 

Did 4/5 TFB with a pug today. Still had an hour on the timer at Terror but had to stop do to people having to go for other raids. Still found plenty of time to meme on bosses. So whoever was claiming TFB without stacks was impossible that was very cute.

 

I saw that stream & yeah it seemed very impossible indeed to clear tfb nim including timer, not lol.

Edited by dready_tv
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When you say pug... Some select group from a select discord? Or some regular Joe's from fleet...

 

I mean, you do realize anything outside of your main raiding group is considered a pug, right? It doesn't matter if it's a select discord or fleet, it's a group of people that don't usually play with eachother, hence the name 'pug'... That's a weak attempt at showing that no VE raids are hard.

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I mean, you do realize anything outside of your main raiding group is considered a pug, right? It doesn't matter if it's a select discord or fleet, it's a group of people that don't usually play with eachother, hence the name 'pug'... That's a weak attempt at showing that no VE raids are hard.

 

 

No it's showing a reference point and you're giving a weak attempt to discredit my statement. If you're that confident that your average Joe's will have as much success as your select group from your select discord. Please, show the public. I mean it's really hypocritical saying on the one hand you need to be hardcore nim raiders to clear **** now and then no literally everybody can. So what is it?

 

 

And before you try to think of a clever comeback, let me just say this is petty. all of us here want the game to be an enjoyable worthwhile experience. There needs to be challenge in the game I agree, what I don't agree is how the Devs handled this mess. Rebalancing should have been done before 6.0 hit and not as a stealth change mid new expansion. Only reason why this is such a hot topic, is because nobody is even remotely focusing on the real issue: the lack of content, how long before dxun nim comes? And then what doing the same opses over and over again?

Edited by Anyaka_Jedi
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No it's showing a reference point and you're giving a weak attempt to discredit my statement. If you're that confident that your average Joe's will have as much success as your select group from your select discord. Please, show the public. I mean it's really hypocritical saying on the one hand you need to be hardcore nim raiders to clear **** now and then no literally everybody can. So what is it?

 

 

And before you try to think of a clever comeback, let me just say this is petty. all of us here want the game to be an enjoyable worthwhile experience. There needs to be challenge in the game I agree, what I don't agree is how the Devs handled this mess. Rebalancing should have been done before 6.0 hit and not as a stealth change mid new expansion. Only reason why this is such a hot topic, is because nobody is even remotely focusing on the real issue: the lack of content, how long before dxun nim comes? And then what doing the same opses over and over again?

 

You're average Joe can have success if they try. No need to hand them the completion, not everyone gets a participation trophy. It can be done without the stacks, its already proven it can, so its basically back to a "Git Gud" argument. Learn to now complete them without the stacks.

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I mean, you do realize anything outside of your main raiding group is considered a pug, right? It doesn't matter if it's a select discord or fleet, it's a group of people that don't usually play with eachother, hence the name 'pug'... That's a weak attempt at showing that no VE raids are hard.

 

What chipequssmlgpro said. Everything outside your main raiding team is actually considered a pug & always have in every MMO out there.

 

No it's showing a reference point and you're giving a weak attempt to discredit my statement. If you're that confident that your average Joe's will have as much success as your select group from your select discord. Please, show the public. I mean it's really hypocritical saying on the one hand you need to be hardcore nim raiders to clear **** now and then no literally everybody can. So what is it?

 

You do know that nim is the hardest raiding content in the game? It is not supposed to be easily accessable for everyone & most people probably won't be able to do it (due to the lack of dedication), which is the design for the highest difficulty of end game raiding content & that concept exist everywhere.

 

Nim content requires both time & personal dedication to get the experience/competence required to do it.

Learn the respective fights & how every single mechanic work (which ppl claim they already know do but honestly they don't) that also includes learning to play your class to its full potential instead of just randomly pressing buttons.

If you decide to do that? Then you will instantly see good results.

 

Everyone(average Joe) can probably do Nim if they decide to do what is required but if people don't want to spend that time to actually do it or even care to evolve as a player? Then maybe nim is simply not for you or that person.

 

No you don't need to be a hardcore nim raider to clear it either, nor have anyone actually claimed that. A few of the people who have cleared it already just log every now & then for some pug raids without being part of any raiding team so i would not call that hardcore, they have just decided to dedicate a little time to actually learn their class & fights nothing more.

 

It have also been proven over & over again that every nim ops without VE stacks are being cleared by multiple teams & pug groups on both youtube & streams every day. So it is clearly not impossible as people claim? Stop whining.

Edited by dready_tv
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When you say pug... Some select group from a select discord? Or some regular Joe's from fleet...

 

Pug= pick up group. People from various discords of course as you said. NiM was never meant to be pugged by just regular joes/ anyone from random from fleets with zero coordination and little skill, that would be silly and defeat the purpose of NiM as that’s what Group finder is for those groups. You don’t see Mythic raids pugged by randoms in Boralus and those fail epically so why should it be different here. My point is If a competent group of people who normally don’t play together can coordinate to kill a bosses then yes it’s doable, and my point is that people saying NiM TFB especially DG is an impossible heal check are just wrong. What your average Joe can do is be on a team of average Joe’s and if they decide they want to be better put it in the work like we all did to improve. It’s going to take a lot more effort than experienced people but if they keep grinding at it’s doable if they are serious about NiM raiding and the dedication needed to understanding it.

Edited by FerkWork
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I mean, you do realize anything outside of your main raiding group is considered a pug, right? It doesn't matter if it's a select discord or fleet, it's a group of people that don't usually play with eachother, hence the name 'pug'... That's a weak attempt at showing that no VE raids are hard.

 

Actually, it does matter. In fact, it matters a lot, when you're discussing running NiM, or it's equivalent anywhere. Hardcore raiding is a thing, it's a thing that's industry wide, and it's a thing that has players that don't do anything else once they get to where they can do it. Pulling a party for an op from a raider discord would be the same thing as pulling a party from your guild. Can you pick that guy that hasn't done it before? Sure. If you have a choice, are you going to? Nope, not if it's going to interfere with your completion. This is a weak attempt to justify "but you shouldn't have an easier time of it than I did".

 

Again, I agree, it should be hard, and to that end, in any content where set bonuses and tacticals weren't a thing, they should be disabled, and the required gear score for the raid when it was made should be where you're bolstered to, so that we can separate the wheat from the chaff. I mean, you shouldn't be able to do it any easier than I did when I did it, right? This is the "pet peeve" on trial here, right? "But stacks make it easier for them, and that shouldn't be a thing". I don't have a dog in this fight. I quit raiding before some of the people posting here even started raiding, presumably. But I really don't care how someone went about getting their completions. With VE, w/out VE, taking full advantage of set and tactical bonuses, I don't care. But if we're going to pick the "but it's too easy for x now, and it shouldn't be", then we need to be removing all advantages, not just the ones that suit one argument or the other.

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Actually, it does matter. In fact, it matters a lot, when you're discussing running NiM, or it's equivalent anywhere. Hardcore raiding is a thing, it's a thing that's industry wide, and it's a thing that has players that don't do anything else once they get to where they can do it. Pulling a party for an op from a raider discord would be the same thing as pulling a party from your guild. Can you pick that guy that hasn't done it before? Sure. If you have a choice, are you going to? Nope, not if it's going to interfere with your completion. This is a weak attempt to justify "but you shouldn't have an easier time of it than I did".

 

Again, I agree, it should be hard, and to that end, in any content where set bonuses and tacticals weren't a thing, they should be disabled, and the required gear score for the raid when it was made should be where you're bolstered to, so that we can separate the wheat from the chaff. I mean, you shouldn't be able to do it any easier than I did when I did it, right? This is the "pet peeve" on trial here, right? "But stacks make it easier for them, and that shouldn't be a thing". I don't have a dog in this fight. I quit raiding before some of the people posting here even started raiding, presumably. But I really don't care how someone went about getting their completions. With VE, w/out VE, taking full advantage of set and tactical bonuses, I don't care. But if we're going to pick the "but it's too easy for x now, and it shouldn't be", then we need to be removing all advantages, not just the ones that suit one argument or the other.

 

So, if you quit, a long time ago, why do you assume what is hard and what isn't? Have you tried raids as they were in 5.10, or 6.0 with 258s, or VE stacks? Or have you tried Gods Nightmare by any chance, when they came out in 5.10 which was by far the hardest raid they ever invented in this game? Why are you posting in this thread if you've got no clue how raids are right now? If you're an OG raider who liked challenges, you'd be pleasantly surprised about how good raids feel right now. But no, you choose to listen to people on the forums who probably didn't even spend 2 hours in a raid without VE stacks.

 

Can you pick that guy that hasn't done it before? Sure. If you have a choice, are you going to? Nope, not if it's going to interfere with your completion. This is a weak attempt to justify "but you shouldn't have an easier time of it than I did".

 

Why would you bring in someone inexperienced in a group? Of course you want to have the raid you're doing to go as smooth as possible. Especially if everyone has cleared it several times before and is only looking for a nice time. This kind of discussion have been going around for years in every single MMO out there. People have progressed it and spent time doing so, why bring in someone who haven't? There have been several discords and such where different groups of people with various experienced did both hm and nim together.

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So, if you quit, a long time ago, why do you assume what is hard and what isn't? Have you tried raids as they were in 5.10, or 6.0 with 258s, or VE stacks? Or have you tried Gods Nightmare by any chance, when they came out in 5.10 which was by far the hardest raid they ever invented in this game? Why are you posting in this thread if you've got no clue how raids are right now? If you're an OG raider who liked challenges, you'd be pleasantly surprised about how good raids feel right now. But no, you choose to listen to people on the forums who probably didn't even spend 2 hours in a raid without VE stacks.

 

Because I can't stand the hypocrisy of "but it's easier for them" all while taking full advantage of other mechanics player side that make it easier now. So my argument is the same as yours, isn't it? It shouldn't be any easier for you than it was for me. It seems like you're somewhat resistant to that, and I have to wonder, why is that? No need to answer, it's rhetorical, because I already know why that is: "It's a slap in the face that someone might have an easier time than I did".

 

Why would you bring in someone inexperienced in a group? Of course you want to have the raid you're doing to go as smooth as possible. Especially if everyone has cleared it several times before and is only looking for a nice time. This kind of discussion have been going around for years in every single MMO out there. People have progressed it and spent time doing so, why bring in someone who haven't? There have been several discords and such where different groups of people with various experienced did both hm and nim together.

 

So that they can learn the raids, and become a member? How experienced were you in your first raid? How many times did your errors wipe a group? How many times do you suppose the vets in that group discussed kicking you? How many times were you rejected, or kicked? Then we get to the meat of the issue, your definition of PuG for a raid is very different from the traditional meaning. You're effectively PuGing from your guild, from a group of players that you know already know the raid, and all the mechanics. Guess what, I'm down with that, in fact, I used to do the same thing, but let's not pretend it's a PuG in the traditional sense, because it's not. You even clarify it in your opening statement for this paragraph. So no, people aren't doing NiM clears with PuG groups, they're doing them with their friend's list, effectively, of players that know the content. Again, that's great, when you have the pool to pull from, you should definitely do it, but it's not a PuG.

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It did not come out of nowhere. It was tested on PTS by people with high experience & knowledge of the game regarding high end raiding. Including that it was planned to get into the game anyway so the result would still be the same, now it just happened to enter the game a bit earlier than expected..boohoo

You can express and defend your opinion all you want but don’t try to tweak the facts so they fit your narrative.

 

It was a ninja change. They didn’t communicate on it before it made its way to live servers. They never announced it the way they advertised their new stronghold. Musco didn’t put a thread on PTS forums dedicated to this subject. I haven’t seen a single thread on forums started by players where changes to nims were discussed. Should we test all content this game has on PTS searching for critical changes they intend to make and decided not to talk about?

 

Then all of a sudden it turns out that some of the players were aware of the change. Hey, look, you’re not a hardcore raider who cleared old nims 153458 times so your opinion is irrelevant. Yep, we opened a can of worms when made old nims accessible to more raiders but we don’t want to bear responsibility for it.

 

I’d like to believe Musco when he sais that it's his own fault but I can’t. It’s not the first time BWA comes up with a (potentially) unpopular change and refuses to speak of it before it is implemented. Think of the mods tied to certain types of shells in 5.10 for instance.

 

They screwed up and yet again pissed off a portion of their playerbase in favour of another portion. It was a douche move. It's not how things should be done. Period.

 

P.S. If anything, stackers and no-stackers shouldn’t ever have this discussion. It could be avoided if BWA bothered to scale content to lvl 75 in the first place.

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If anything, stackers and no-stackers shouldn’t ever have this discussion. It could be avoided if BWA bothered to scale content to lvl 75 in the first place.

Agree. What's more, I don't even see a real discussion. There are two camps just arguing completely past one another about two different things.

 

No-stackers: Want NiM content to be hard again. For them, it's about what they want from the game in an objective sense, detached from the people and community playing it. Arguments are about the idea behind what NiM is supposed to be and how it was when it came out.

 

Stackers: Want NiM to be played. For them, it's about the community that's developed around NiM and the accessibility for people who want to get into NiM and learn the mechanics without facing overly-daunting DPS and HPS checks. Many in this camp actually enjoy the harder content without stacks, but for them it's more important that they have other people to play with at all and can raid more than just 2-3 evenings per week with their main group.

 

I see both sides, and honestly want both. No stacks for my raid group, stacks for pugs and people learning the mechanics with slightly less-daunting DPS and HPS checks, or better yet just scaling them up to 75. That the game badly needs a major balance patch and actually needed it before no-stack NiM goes without saying, but offering both stack and no-stack options would be an acceptable solution, I think, and faster than scaling to 75. Then they can take their time to get the balancing right and consider scaling the content up for the next major patch.

Edited by Aulus_Claudius
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If they did bump to 75, I hope everyone bought new augments for all their toons as they will be needed. Also, if they did raise to 75 and make it as hard as without stacks, will people still complain or will they accept like they are saying if it’s raised to 75? Cause ironically it will be at the very least more expensive to do the legacy raids. :)
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If they did bump to 75, I hope everyone bought new augments for all their toons as they will be needed. Also, if they did raise to 75 and make it as hard as without stacks, will people still complain or will they accept like they are saying if it’s raised to 75? Cause ironically it will be at the very least more expensive to do the legacy raids. :)

 

Of course it wouldn’t satisfy everyone. On the other hand, we would have more control over our stats, could trade one for another in certain encounters, wouldn’t be forced to use ****** relics, etc. Nim crystals would be a thing (I’m not sure if they work in scaled content and haven’t seen any reports about it). Or people would just wait for new augments and tiers of gear knowing that it’ll help them to clear content they couldn’t handle before.

 

I see both sides, and honestly want both. No stacks for my raid group, stacks for pugs and people learning the mechanics with slightly less-daunting DPS and HPS checks, or better yet just scaling them up to 75. That the game badly needs a major balance patch and actually needed it before no-stack NiM goes without saying, but offering both stack and no-stack options would be an acceptable solution, I think, and faster than scaling to 75. Then they can take their time to get the balancing right and consider scaling the content up for the next major patch.

Yeah, I wouldn’t mind nims having stack and no-stack options. Raids with stacks could become a good training ground since the gap between hms and nims is now bigger than ever. Removing stacks from hms won't solve the problem because in 5.x. the difference was huge as well. They can gate chievos and shinies behind the harder option, or add new ones for completing it.

Edited by Ollmich
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Here is what they need to do. Run a weekly or monthly NIM raid no stacks for the hardcore raiders. Kinda like a NIM power but it would change each week or month. This would make both camps happy and give those that want to progress on harder nim the chance and those learning the mechanics the chance. Win win.
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Of course it wouldn’t satisfy everyone. On the other hand, we would have more control over our stats, could trade one for another in certain encounters, wouldn’t be forced to use ****** relics, etc. Nim crystals would be a thing (I’m not sure if they work in scaled content and haven’t seen any reports about it). Or people would just wait for new augments and tiers of gear knowing that it’ll help them to clear content they couldn’t handle before.

 

 

Yeah, I wouldn’t mind nims having stack and no-stack options. Raids with stacks could become a good training ground since the gap between hms and nims is now bigger than ever. Removing stacks from hms won't solve the problem because in 5.x. the difference was huge as well. They can gate chievos and shinies behind the harder option, or add new ones for completing it.

 

It would just be the same relative difficulty as stats control doesn’t matter since we gear the same and just the relative numbers would go up. Same people would pass and same people would fail so from a dev perspective probable not going to. Still would have to equal the difficulty as it is now. NiM crystals already work and override downscaling aspect if anyone needing a boost. Personally I don’t mind if it not scaled as that means I don’t have to buy the newest augments. And another key point is I think as you mentioned people want it scaled up so we can eventually over gear it just like 248, new augments, and 258 gear to trivialize the content again. I’m personally fine leaving as is or make it 75 but no new gear tiers to cheap it out. So I don’t see the fascination with making it 75 other than wanting to wait for new gear tiers to make it a joke again.

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No-stackers: Want NiM content to be hard again. For them, it's about what they want from the game in an objective sense, detached from the people and community playing it. Arguments are about the idea behind what NiM is supposed to be and how it was when it came out.

 

Stackers: Want NiM to be played. For them, it's about the community that's developed around NiM and the accessibility for people who want to get into NiM and learn the mechanics without facing overly-daunting DPS and HPS checks. Many in this camp actually enjoy the harder content without stacks, but for them it's more important that they have other people to play with at all and can raid more than just 2-3 evenings per week with their main group.

 

This is a good summation I suppose. But the “no stacker” group doesn’t seem to recognize that cutting off like 70%+ of the 6.0 NiM raiding community from doing NiM content means that many of these people will just stop playing all together. And they can rant on all they want about “git gud” but a game with no players is probably not for the best.

 

Can people truly be sufficiently ignorant so as to not see that?

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If they did bump to 75, I hope everyone bought new augments for all their toons as they will be needed. Also, if they did raise to 75 and make it as hard as without stacks, will people still complain or will they accept like they are saying if it’s raised to 75? Cause ironically it will be at the very least more expensive to do the legacy raids. :)

 

Huh? We have Dxun gear, no?

Edited by Rion_Starkiller
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IDK, I might be out of touch on the expense of augments. I craft my own -- it's a pain, but worth it. Though blue augs are stupid easy to craft.

 

It has zero effect on me either as I have more than enough credits to gear anything and all, it’s more of a case I hope people understand what they are wishing for if they want all it be bumped up.

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It would just be the same relative difficulty as stats control doesn’t matter since we gear the same and just the relative numbers would go up. Same people would pass and same people would fail so from a dev perspective probable not going to. Still would have to equal the difficulty as it is now. NiM crystals already work and override downscaling aspect if anyone needing a boost. Personally I don’t mind if it not scaled as that means I don’t have to buy the newest augments. And another key point is I think as you mentioned people want it scaled up so we can eventually over gear it just like 248, new augments, and 258 gear to trivialize the content again. I’m personally fine leaving as is or make it 75 but no new gear tiers to cheap it out. So I don’t see the fascination with making it 75 other than wanting to wait for new gear tiers to make it a joke again.

Thanks for info on crystals.

 

As for stats, I've been in encounters where tank made a difference when replaced some of their gear with skank pieces. One can hope :)

 

And I know it's a tired argument but if you want old raids being for you the same in terms of difficulty despite new gear being introduced, you can choose not to spend a fortune or lots of time getting it, same as you did with 286 augments. You didn't need those to clear Dxun, right? So why bother at all?

 

My initial point was a bit different though. I haven't said "BWA has to scale content asap ", I've said "BWA could have avoided this whole argument if they scaled content 4 months ago". I'd still prefer endgame content being scaled properly (there're plenty of reasons, convenience being one of them) but it's too late already. Damage is done.

Edited by Ollmich
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Thanks for info on crystals.

 

As for stats, I've been in encounters where tank made a difference when replaced some of their gear with skank pieces. One can hope :)

 

And I know it's a tired argument but if you want old raids being for you the same in terms of difficulty despite new gear being introduced, you can choose not to spend a fortune or lots of time getting it, same as you did with current gold augments. You didn't need those to clear Dxun, right? So why bother at all?

 

My initial point was a bit different though. I haven't said "BWA has to scale content asap ", I've said "BWA could have avoided this whole argument if they scaled content 4 months ago". I'd still prefer endgame content being scaled properly (there're plenty of reasons, convenience being one of them) but it's too late already. Damage is done.

 

Just a guess, but maybe they figured the hardcore raiders would follow the carrot, instead of camping content that's 20 levels beneath them? It's possible that they didn't cap all the raids because they wanted raids for people to practice on in level ranges. Oricon was endgame, once upon a time, but no longer. Running it 20 levels above what it was designed for, of course it's going to be easy, and bolster doesn't do enough to prevent overpowering the content, neither does level syncing, for that matter. That's what's so boggling for me, this "but these raids all need to be hard", or "these raids all need to be capped" arguments sort of fall flat, because they don't.

 

Wanting hard is great, truly. So are the new raids, that are designed with current character power in mind, too easy too, or is it a case of "but someone might pull a mount that they didn't "earn""? There's some reason the hardcore raiders are sticking to years past relevant content, I wonder what that is? Because if BW and the little council they had on the PTS were basing "it's way too easy" on irrelevant content, there's an even bigger issue here than some stacks being added or removed. I say this because I would hope that true progression raiders find 5+ year old, 20 levels below the cap raids too easy. That's the whole point to progression raiding... :rolleyes:

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timed runs should be restricted to running the ops without stacks of veteran's edge.

 

I guess they need to enable an "option" to allow vet edge stacks in those ops...but if you do that option to do a timed run will be disabled and no chievo.

 

I am only talking here about timed run achievements, not individual boss kill or anything else achievements- because teams have to practice the content and disable stacks for the timed run attempt when they think they are ready.

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