Vet's edge stacks in gods

[Rion_Starkiller]

I think that the problem, ultimately, is that people don’t want to reprog old content for no reason/reward/cheevos. Recycled content is recycled content. How about class/role cheevos per raid? Or what if only the new raids were “elite NiM” tier. What do do when HM is too easy, but NiM is too hard? What do you do if you simply do not know the right people to get on a team at your skill level?

 

I’m okay with having more options, and even a 4th tier of raid difficulty, but I think the gulf between HM to NiM is too wide. The devs are effectively taking content away from “mediocre” and new NiM raiders — and not adding anything to replace content. So let’s not fight amongst each other, it’s a ****** situation with little or no communication from the devs about their intention.

 

What’s MattP got to say?

Edited February 14, 2020 by Rion_Starkiller

[GhOsTPrOz]

Here's my two cents

 

I agree that with 30 stacks some of the DPS checks were a bit too easy, we almost killed Heirad before second lightning on NIM with 30 stacks. That's a bit too easy.

 

How they went about changing it though is too insane and with almost no warning. Plenty of teams were progging a boss only to find out yesterday they can't even reach that boss any more.

We tried out a few of the raids, DP felt really brutal, almost pointless to have 121k HP or 1HP because the moment something hit a DPS they died. We managed to get 2/5 and stopped (wanted the lockout for a team) it felt ok in terms of DPS but again there was no room for even a single mistake. When we tried DF we were stuck on Draxus, we couldn't meet the DPS check at all. Everyone was above 8k. TFB we spent half the night on the first boss and could only kill it when I swapped to shadow to "cheese" the adds to give DPS more boss uptime.

 

I am one of those raiders who had to do things on tier back when it was "so much more difficult". Firstly strats have changed a lot, no one used to stack subteroths on Draxus we would all take two or three each and use cooldowns. I did NIMs when we had no fancy toys like raids buffs reflects blade blitzes force speeds or dot spreads. The closest thing we had to dot spread was the one sniper dot was a dot spread and plasma grenade. I progged HMs and NIMs in 2.0, 3.0 ( wouldn't say progged nims but the tier HMs for sure) 4.0, 5.0 and had decent success in all of them. We killed Terror post nerf and pre 236 augs or 248 gear. Pretty sure we were server first or second to most our 5.0 clears on Ebon Hawk. Again I agree NIM was too easy right now, some of the checks were way too easy, and I definitely wanted it to change a bit but this isn't the right way to do it.

 

Imagine sports, take baseball, you have some of your all time greats like Babe Ruth, Satchel Paige, Derek Jeter, Pete Rose...the big names everyone knows right? What about current Yankee Luke Volt, bet you haven't heard of him right? He's some nobody, but the thing is all these players play in the same league, some are more skilled and preform a bit better but all of them are considered professional baseball players. It's kinda the same idea for Swtor right? You have your big name raiders and guilds and your less known less skilled players and guilds who previously could keep up with the best but maybe needed a bit more time to kill stuff, had to work a bit harder, needed a few extra days or trying, now imagine taking an entire community of people and telling them mid expansion that they're no longer at the level required to do the content they could previously do.

 

I have a team that went from being able to do TFB NIM in almost under an hour and then overnight suddenly spent half the night trying to kill the first boss. There's a few things that we could have done better, and I think next time we will be prepared and have an easier time. But is this really what Bioware and the "elites" of the NIM community want? People in my guild are already begining to say they will quit if these changes aren't fixed. Sure some of my teams won't have any issues, sure some teams will have some reprogging to do, but the thing is people don't want to reprog old content they've done for years.

 

I think that 15 or even 10 stacks should be added back, or add all 30 back and increase some of the bosses health pools. I'm pretty sure some things like NiM Tyrans 16m or NiM Styrak are nearly Impossible to do and if they are you need to class stack. I challenge any group to complete NIM Tyrans 16m without having more then 2 of the same DPS class, don't think it's doable and of it is only by the top two or three most elite groups.

 

I understand most of the top raiders in this game want content so challenging that only they can do it, you need to feel special because you have nothing in life so you cling to swtor. Some of us have jobs, school, lives, and can't commit 40 hours a week to being the best there ever was. I guess we just need to git gud right?

[pivcelin]

Really nice touch adding a no-lifer insult by the end kappa

[Rion_Starkiller]

We’re baddies and not “real NiM” raiders if we disagree with VE removal, and no-lifers if we do.

 

Let’s not argue amongst each other. The real enemy is lack of regular new content. 2 raids in 5 years:rolleyes:

Edited February 14, 2020 by Rion_Starkiller

[AMAirlines]

KIlling the NIM community!

 

This is an awful change! Bioware needs to return the stacks, even 15 would be okay- I know a lot of elitist NIM raiders will say oh its such a great challenge. But this change takes NIM back to a place where only a very very small percentage of the games population can do it and that just Isn't fair! Content should be accessible to those who are trying to impove and progress. YES NIM should be hard but my guilds raid teams went from progging last bosses to not being able to kill 2/5 TFB overnight- it just isnt fair to community and it saddens me to see bioware taking a step in the wrong direction on the Nightmare difficulty.

 

I went from a SM scrub to a scrappy HM raider then into NIM prog, back to HM cause I wasnt ready then back to NIM, in 5.0 I got SNV timer, EC timer 4/5 TFB+Survivals and Monolith HM, the tuning of NIM was great in 5.0 even with 248 or 242 gear though a bit harder than Id have liked would have been okay this is just INSANITY mode.

 

I hope they add back the stacks or at least some of them, hell make a way for groups to remove the stacks if they want a challenge, perhaps remove them in Gods as that is the most recent content so hardcore raiders can get the challenge they want, (NIM duxn should serve as this as well when it drops) But please bioware this change will shut many NIM guild out of the community and will kill raiding making it something only the top 1% can accomplish and I very much dont wish to see that return.

 

BRING BACK THE STACK!

 

I also disagree with this, most people are just mad that mediocre players in 5.10/6.0 that got carried by gear can't clear what is supposed to be hard content anymore. So perhaps instead of complaining all the time, you should just think about how YOU can improve rather than the game.

[Karasaar]

I agree the dps checks were slightly undertuned with vet stacks, however the difference that is created by the complete removal of them is too high. It would be fine in my mind if a new difficulty mode was introduced with the only difference beeing the removal of stacks, simply to be unfair and absurd. However making it so that the skill gap between vm and mm is this high is just absurd. You have to consider that for people who are quite good but not absurdly good if nim remains on this diffuclty there is simply nothing interesting for us to do, since vm is too trivial and nim (I'm not talking about easy nims like asation here) would be far too tough.

[JulWolle]

I think it is totally ridiculous. Asation is fine and interesting now, but palace and fortress are just dumb.You have almost no chance, it is more a game of luck/rng than of skill. Too much one shots, too much dmg while you cannot heal enough. NM is not supposed to be cleared only by 10 guilds world wide at all... It´s supposed to be a challenge but not a 2. job where you need to be at the lvl of messi/cr7 to complete it!

 

How about we slowly adjust how many stacks you have to find a sweet spot, nerfing/buffing should always happen in small steps

Edited February 14, 2020 by JulWolle

[gollumnova]

Seriously, Master mode wasn't really nim anymore and yes the changes make sense in principle, but not to this extent...I don't know which of those

who are saying it's fine and that nim is finally really there have been in master mode so far, but if 2 hits in 3s two shot a tank then it isn't

the content which is called nim. This is absurd. A moderate change is ok, perhaps 15 stacks instead of 30 as it's been suggested.

But to remove all, to nerf the dps of DDs and at the same time to not adjust the damage output of bosses is just ridiculuous.

You just can't change a difficulty mode that wasn't intended for the 1% of players since release. It's silly.

[AwesomeTacoCat]

It seems like the developers just keep taking their queues from like Farming Components and Failure. Like they somehow don’t recognize that this is tantamount to the US leaving tax policy entirely up to Jeff Bezos. NiM operations shouldn’t be tuned so that ~100 people can clear them.

 

Look, I get that DPS checks needed to be tuned up relative to 6.0. No question about it - but over-tuning 5 year old ops to the extent that only an (admittedly vocal) minority can complete them is idiotic. Especially with such a gaping difference between HM and NiM.

 

Finally, I’d like to point out that my motives aren’t that I don’t like a challenge. I do. But it’s already hard enough to find competent raiders with our dwindling plater base even in 6.0. Limiting the pool of viable raiders to this extent, though, seems to be a bad idea to me.

[GamingCrimes]

I think it is a bit ridiculous that people feel like Nightmare is now too hard. You are still easily able to pug every nightmare raid except gods even with unoptimized gear, with people not playing their main roles and even with some people that didn't even clear the instances yet. I literally pugged DF NiM today and everything went very smoothly even with the aforementioned handicaps. I play this game very rarely in recent times because there isn't enough (challenging) content to entertain me for a longer period of time, but I'm still easily able to perform well enough on every class and spec to clear nightmare content. Yes, I used to play this game a lot, but I simply think it is nonsense to say that nightmare is only easy because you play a lot. If you don't have enough time to invest 3 hours two times a week into this game you should not be able to clear nightmare easily, you should have to spend a bit of time to learn the fights. I mean, why would you want to raid nightmare anyway when you aren't enjoying the challenge? If you just want to have a good time with friends, go for hardmode operations, they are there for a reason. I generally agree that the difficulty spikes of SM to HM to NiM isn't really balanced (SM<<HM<<<<<NiM), but that is another problem. Also, don't you think it is funny that you used to get bolstered in the hardest content of the game? It just seems silly to me.

Another point I want to talk about is the rarity of vanity that drops in nightmare raids. If everything is tuned in a way that you can literally 7-man ops, these items just aren't worth anything anymore. I think it is important to have something in a game that you work towards achieving. If you get everything with little to no effort you will lose interest. That is also why I think it is completely false to assume that players will stop playing the game when the content is too hard for them. If anything, players will stop playing because they don't have anything left to do in the game, atleast that is the case for 95% of the players that I have met in this game.

 

If something is very hard for some players, but very, very easy for others, maybe those players that find nightmare difficult should just start with ravagers or temple of sacrifice HM, or take some time to improve your rotation on practice dummies.

 

Also, remove the alacrity buff from HM ops pls thx

[FerkWork]

I also disagree with this, most people are just mad that mediocre players in 5.10/6.0 that got carried by gear can't clear what is supposed to be hard content anymore. So perhaps instead of complaining all the time, you should just think about how YOU can improve rather than the game.

 

Hi son.

 

If these people here think that because NiM isn’t complete faceroll anymore, I wonder what people would think when they were released and we had fewer abilities and dcds and people had no idea how the bosses worked when figuring it out. Or of Mythic raiding in WoW or Ultimate in FF. Look yeah it’s pretty memes that they can’t release content, but asking for the very few content that provides somewhat a challenge to be faceroll is pretty pepega. It’s meant to be cleared only by the 1% or less. Instead of asking for nerfs why don’t people decide to buff themselves by just doing better?

Edited February 14, 2020 by FerkWork

[AwesomeTacoCat]

Hi son.

 

If these people here think that because NiM isn’t complete faceroll anymore, I wonder what people would think when they were released and we had fewer abilities and dcds and people had no idea how the bosses worked when figuring it out. Or of Mythic raiding in WoW or Ultimate in FF. Look yeah it’s pretty memes that they can’t release content, but asking for the very few content that provides somewhat a challenge to be faceroll is pretty pepega. It’s meant to be cleared only by the 1% or less. Instead of asking for nerfs why don’t people decide to buff themselves by just doing better?

 

I just absolutely disagree with this idea that only 1% of raiders should be able to do NiM content. I’m not arguing that we should turn NiM into hello kitty island adventure but it’s stupid to make content for 1% of people. 5%? Maybe that’s more sensible.

 

But NiM content should absolutely not just be doable by like 5 teams globally (like gods is right now, for example).

[Rion_Starkiller]

 

But NiM content should absolutely not just be doable by like 5 teams globally (like gods is right now, for example).

 

Aren't those same 5 teams invited to private testing servers where they write guides and develop strats that are published the day the raid is released to us plebs?

[Avalauren]

I also disagree with this, most people are just mad that mediocre players in 5.10/6.0 that got carried by gear can't clear what is supposed to be hard content anymore. So perhaps instead of complaining all the time, you should just think about how YOU can improve rather than the game.

 

 

Who cares?

 

Get on the Devs to release new, challenging content rather than worrying about if the content from 6 years ago is still challenging to mediocre players. There's nothing special about doing old content with higher DPS checks, it's still old content that's been done backwards and forwards and made even easier with class updates. Let those raids fall by the wayside, let "mediocre" players have their fun and the "elite" players focus on content that's challenging and new.

[FerkWork]

I just absolutely disagree with this idea that only 1% of raiders should be able to do NiM content. I’m not arguing that we should turn NiM into hello kitty island adventure but it’s stupid to make content for 1% of people. 5%? Maybe that’s more sensible.

 

But NiM content should absolutely not just be doable by like 5 teams globally (like gods is right now, for example).

 

It’s already was glorified VM. When you have non existent dps and heal checks, people can afk meme on bosses then yeah it was a clown fiesta. This just brings up the difficulty not a true NiM experience but less a clown fiesta. Only in this game do people want the hardest difficulty to be not a true challenge. I’m sorry but I can look at WoW which I mainly play these days, where 1% of guilds actually fully clear the raid by the time the tier ends and people and me are fine with that. Not everything is for everyone. The gearing system already devalued the hardest difficulty. Veteran Stacks just made it even worse.

 

Yes I’m aware they should be prioritizing new challenging content but I’m well aware their resources. So people only have the old content to so keeping it challenging makes it a reward in itself of clearing. Personally I’m indifferent since I’m only interested in new content but the amount of I can’t clear this because the pepega stacks are gone is hysterical levels of nonsense.

Edited February 15, 2020 by FerkWork

[Avalauren]

Hi son.

 

If these people here think that because NiM isn’t complete faceroll anymore, I wonder what people would think when they were released and we had fewer abilities and dcds and people had no idea how the bosses worked when figuring it out. Or of Mythic raiding in WoW or Ultimate in FF. Look yeah it’s pretty memes that they can’t release content, but asking for the very few content that provides somewhat a challenge to be faceroll is pretty pepega. It’s meant to be cleared only by the 1% or less. Instead of asking for nerfs why don’t people decide to buff themselves by just doing better?

 

As above, you guys keep bringing up irrelevant things. Who cares how they were at release? That was half a decade ago. If you did it then, great. You have those memories. I suppose it's because I come from WoW where the content cycle means old content is largely irrelevant with new content that I don't share your views on disparaging players who want to do the content you did years ago

 

To put another way, old content isn't for you anymore. You already did it. Already cleared/progressed on it. You know the mechanics and strats in every way possible. Progression raiding is as much about learning those things as it is meeting checks. So if you've already been clearing it for years, it's just not for you anymore. You're only entertained by half of it (Meeting checks).

 

There's a wide gulf between HM EV/KP to HM ToS/Rav to HM GFTM/Dxun. There's nothing wrong with having similar tiers in NiM raids.

[JulWolle]

I think it is a bit ridiculous that people feel like Nightmare is now too hard. You are still easily able to pug every nightmare raid except gods even with unoptimized gear, with people not playing their main roles and even with some people that didn't even clear the instances yet. I literally pugged DF NiM today and everything went very smoothly even with the aforementioned handicaps. I play this game very rarely in recent times because there isn't enough (challenging) content to entertain me for a longer period of time, but I'm still easily able to perform well enough on every class and spec to clear nightmare content. Yes, I used to play this game a lot, but I simply think it is nonsense to say that nightmare is only easy because you play a lot. If you don't have enough time to invest 3 hours two times a week into this game you should not be able to clear nightmare easily, you should have to spend a bit of time to learn the fights. I mean, why would you want to raid nightmare anyway when you aren't enjoying the challenge? If you just want to have a good time with friends, go for hardmode operations, they are there for a reason. I generally agree that the difficulty spikes of SM to HM to NiM isn't really balanced (SM<<HM<<<<<NiM), but that is another problem. Also, don't you think it is funny that you used to get bolstered in the hardest content of the game? It just seems silly to me.

Another point I want to talk about is the rarity of vanity that drops in nightmare raids. If everything is tuned in a way that you can literally 7-man ops, these items just aren't worth anything anymore. I think it is important to have something in a game that you work towards achieving. If you get everything with little to no effort you will lose interest. That is also why I think it is completely false to assume that players will stop playing the game when the content is too hard for them. If anything, players will stop playing because they don't have anything left to do in the game, atleast that is the case for 95% of the players that I have met in this game.

 

If something is very hard for some players, but very, very easy for others, maybe those players that find nightmare difficult should just start with ravagers or temple of sacrifice HM, or take some time to improve your rotation on practice dummies.

 

Also, remove the alacrity buff from HM ops pls thx

 

JUST LOL! PUG + NO optimal gear + rare play+ sub optimal classes and you clear new nm df/dp without problems? sure give me a vid one of those things probably ends your run rly early

[Gyronamics]

A huge shovel of salt is required when seeing "pug" used as a qualitative term

 

A NiM pick up group is generally made of people tabbing through small discord groups where guild, ex-guild and related guild players hang out and asking players that are personally known to be competent for the content.

 

Darth Average on fleet is not going to be there unless it's specially for them as some kind of favour or an operation sale.

Edited February 15, 2020 by Gyronamics

[RussellRichter]

Wouldn't it be called "master's edge" if it was meant to be in master mode?

[GamingCrimes]

JUST LOL! PUG + NO optimal gear + rare play+ sub optimal classes and you clear new nm df/dp without problems? sure give me a vid one of those things probably ends your run rly early

 

You can take a look at it here.

[JulWolle]

You can take a look at it here.

 

Ah yeah the classic pug group that runs 2 sins, 2 mercs, 3 sorcs and 1 pt (if i see it right) with a group who all have brontes nim on farm status... and btw is wiping on brontes and stops it.

 

I thought it was a group with randoms, who have no optimal gear play rarely, play sub optimal classes etc.

 

Instead we see a group who play only the best classes, perfect equipped (most likely ) and who know the op in and out.

 

You say ppl leave,but you little elitist always leave after a while and after you cleared the content and wait for new content, do it leave again and so on. Swtor lives from ppl who keep playing. If you want hard challenges ask for new hard raids and don´t make the old ones "your" "new" content.

Edited February 15, 2020 by JulWolle

[dready_tv]

Wah wah wah so much crying.

I want my titles, mounts & cheevos for no effort, skill or practice please bring back the stacks, or better yet make it 60 stacks or just add a vendor with everything u want for 1 credit each because working hard & actually putting time into earning it would be complete MADNESS.

HOW DARE YOU! I WANT MY SHINIES & UNEARNED REWARDS NOW!

[Macescorpio]

I think it is a bit ridiculous that people feel like Nightmare is now too hard. You are still easily able to pug every nightmare raid except gods even with unoptimized gear, with people not playing their main roles and even with some people that didn't even clear the instances yet. I literally pugged DF NiM today and everything went very smoothly even with the aforementioned handicaps. I play this game very rarely in recent times because there isn't enough (challenging) content to entertain me for a longer period of time, but I'm still easily able to perform well enough on every class and spec to clear nightmare content. Yes, I used to play this game a lot, but I simply think it is nonsense to say that nightmare is only easy because you play a lot. If you don't have enough time to invest 3 hours two times a week into this game you should not be able to clear nightmare easily, you should have to spend a bit of time to learn the fights. I mean, why would you want to raid nightmare anyway when you aren't enjoying the challenge? If you just want to have a good time with friends, go for hardmode operations, they are there for a reason. I generally agree that the difficulty spikes of SM to HM to NiM isn't really balanced (SM<<HM<<<<<NiM), but that is another problem. Also, don't you think it is funny that you used to get bolstered in the hardest content of the game? It just seems silly to me.

Another point I want to talk about is the rarity of vanity that drops in nightmare raids. If everything is tuned in a way that you can literally 7-man ops, these items just aren't worth anything anymore. I think it is important to have something in a game that you work towards achieving. If you get everything with little to no effort you will lose interest. That is also why I think it is completely false to assume that players will stop playing the game when the content is too hard for them. If anything, players will stop playing because they don't have anything left to do in the game, atleast that is the case for 95% of the players that I have met in this game.

 

If something is very hard for some players, but very, very easy for others, maybe those players that find nightmare difficult should just start with ravagers or temple of sacrifice HM, or take some time to improve your rotation on practice dummies.

 

Also, remove the alacrity buff from HM ops pls thx

To provide context on this post, the DF run in question wan't really pug with people who raid with each other regularly (albeit not necessarily in a raid group) and one dps who didn't raid in two years taking part. The DPS setup was 3 sorcs and one PT. Add to that 2 sin tanks and 2 merc heals, idk how that's suboptimal classes. Not to mention all of us having full gear. If you bother watching the relevant part of the twitch video, you will also see that we not only wiped at Draxus, but also DID NOT KILL BRONTES (easily puggable amiright boys...).

TLDR; fotm setup, full gear, hardly a true pug, op not cleared...

I just don't see how that supports your view on pugs still being easy and/or realistic.

[FerkWork]

NGL, the amount of salt and tears over stack removal has provided more content for me than this game has in years. Community generated content is the best.

[JulWolle]

To provide context on this post, the DF run in question wan't really pug with people who raid with each other regularly (albeit not necessarily in a raid group) and one dps who didn't raid in two years taking part. The DPS setup was 3 sorcs and one PT. Add to that 2 sin tanks and 2 merc heals, idk how that's suboptimal classes. Not to mention all of us having full gear. If you bother watching the relevant part of the twitch video, you will also see that we not only wiped at Draxus, but also DID NOT KILL BRONTES (easily puggable amiright boys...).

TLDR; fotm setup, full gear, hardly a true pug, op not cleared...

I just don't see how that supports your view on pugs still being easy and/or realistic.

 

Yeah so the only thing he did is prove that the actual nightmare state is a joke or at least the class balancing while petting himself on the shoulder for how awesome of a player he is... iImean he completely lied about everything he said - saying the exact opposite of what happened, how can you even take someone like that serious...