I can't be the only person wanting Operatives/Scoundrels NERFED HARD.....

[Seterade]

I gave a lot of thought in 5.x what you could do to ops to balance them, what I arrived at was "remove 200% dodge from con evasion and move it to lethality roll, keep resist yelllow on con" "alllow turning during leg root on operative" "45 sec hardstun" and 15 sec cd on roll. IF ops needed more to compensate for the changes than maybe a new dcd would be in order, but the current stat of ops is their hrdstun is a full 15 sec less cd, their "maddash" cd is disgusting, a melee class being able to root you out of hitbox is OP and lastly, no class should have an ability that resist everything, only examples of this are mad dash, covered escape and sorc bubble all with much longer cds.

[Rion_Starkiller]

#nerfoperatives

[TrixxieTriss]

Fair points but perhaps allot of these threads comecome from how frustrating it is to play against them then just pure balance alone. and perhaps they should be looked at to make less frustrating to deal with. maybe fixing all of the buggs will help with this but looking at this games record with buggs (just look at CL bugg and how long that existed) can we realy put our hopes up that bw will fix all the buggs with this class ? or atleast in our lifetime XD

instead of just asking for a nerf on whats been the best class for what the last 5 ish years ? or if not the best atleast top2/3 in both pve/pvp it might actuly be nice to have something else to shout at instead of operatives ^^

like right now sins might be just as 'op' but i dont find them half as frustrating becous god knows how long has it been that i had to fear a assasin/shadow. But overal i do agree fixing the bugs is a must i just doubt bw will bother with them or if they do that they will succeed in this.

 

My pet gripe is the Stabby stabby can’t move bull ****. I explained a bit early in the thread why that’s a thing for me.

I would certainly love to see a change in that to reduce my frustration.

 

The other thing I’d like to see for both sins and operatives is the “total blackout” passive removed and made an ability again. BioWare should never have removed that activation ability. Now you can stand next to some poor sap and hump their leg as long as you want to before you attack from stealth. Where is the skill in that?

[Darkchip]

Or you could learn how to counter them.

 

So meny people just go REE REE NERF NERF without even bothering to learn to fight them, some classes are going to have advantages over others and once you know what they are you can learn how to fight them, For concealment they are a very predictable you know what they are going to try and do which is to open with a backstab to get their acidblade up then volitile so alot of their burst will come in at the start so what do you do, A) pop your defences at the start B) just grit you teeth and hope to deal with it C) call for help while trying to deal with them.

 

A and C are both good in this encounter once you deal with their opening burst they are going to just follow their rotation of being annoying but if you can deal with them uptil you fill your bar then you have them dead to rights and if you hold until your backup shows up then they are ether going to flee and heal up or try and finish you fast then deal with the backup all the while trying to mez the other guy since you a immune for a bit.

 

It really isn't that hard and if it's a assassin vs op well let me tell you that op is going to HATE that assassin because they can just purge the volitile all the while laughing their butts off at the op because that also means bye bye acidlash. Their are always counters to every class and some have a much higher skill cealing them others and i'm sorry but this is a clear L2P issue for how to deal with them, you see them pop their evade then just deal base damage to them until it's gone one it is open hell on them their cooldown will be for naught and they will be sweeting their butts of since they wasted their evade.

[Seterade]

zzzz no good op uses acid lash, volatile substance doesnt cleanse from force shroud and good ops run blow for blow evasion. please, yellow dmg into 150% reflect or white damage into 200% dodge. Id like to see how that works out for you. also volatile substance is on 15 sec cd, no one has enough dcds to eat every 15 sec volatile. your whole posts speaks volumes that either you arent an expert op or youve never fought one.

 

I didnt go into the 20% heal, 20% dmg reduction, constant 11% dmg reduction, 2 hots at all times, immoblize hitbox root, kolto cast, instant 8 sec cc or 30 sec cd on 4 sec hrd stun which is a full 15 faster than every class in swtor, sins coming in at 45 seconds. oh and god roll. yeh, still a thing in 2020.

Edited February 7, 2020 by Seterade

[tharlainmar]

I gave a lot of thought in 5.x what you could do to ops to balance them, what I arrived at was "remove 200% dodge from con evasion and move it to lethality roll, keep resist yelllow on con" "alllow turning during leg root on operative" "45 sec hardstun" and 15 sec cd on roll. IF ops needed more to compensate for the changes than maybe a new dcd would be in order, but the current stat of ops is their hrdstun is a full 15 sec less cd, their "maddash" cd is disgusting, a melee class being able to root you out of hitbox is OP and lastly, no class should have an ability that resist everything, only examples of this are mad dash, covered escape and sorc bubble all with much longer cds.

 

Although yes i agree operatives are dealing too much dmg with the new tactical combined with the tactician set

the roll is fine as it is imo, if they are using the dmg set, its on a 8 sec cd and 2 rolls being 16 secs, its already 60% longer than it was in 5.0, granted if they are using the 2 hardstun set then its 12 secs so its not as bad a nerf, its the only movement ability they have though with every damage ability on a 4m range. Sins even double that with ball lightning and discharge if im correct they are on 10m. All the classes you mentioned have either a movement speed increase, leap or force speed on a low cooldown along with the abilities you mentioned. Not to mention sorc and snipers are ranged classes anyways, A operative needs to either roll to get close to you or they need to roll to get away from you seeing as how holotraverse works half the time and countermeasures is on a 45 sec cd. Reason why Ops have many more ccs and roots is cause of that reason alone, roll is and always will be a double edged sword for operatives, the only good thing they have as a DCD aside from the roll is the sheer amount of Damage reduction operatives have when using adrenals and stim boost if they have the utility for 20% DR. along with a passive 11% DR from other utilities also. Granted yes they are still hitting just abit too high, but even if they nerf the Tactical, Operatives will still be good. Lacerations are hitting 27-35k alone as its one of the main spammables. taking away the tactical wont change that

[Raansu]

The roll is definitely not fine as is. They should have never given that ability to them and the hots need to go back to being healer spec only.

[tharlainmar]

The roll is definitely not fine as is. They should have never given that ability to them and the hots need to go back to being healer spec only.

 

They should just remove the roll and give us operatives force speed every 12-15 seconds and force shroud like sins

Sorcs have self heals, mercs have self and dcd heals, sins can take a utility to heal when they vanish, juggs can also dcd heal, even snipers can heal 25k hp every roll

Edited February 7, 2020 by tharlainmar

[Lhancelot]

They should just remove the roll and give us operatives force speed every 12-15 seconds and force shroud like sins

Sorcs have self heals, mercs have self and dcd heals, sins can take a utility to heal when they vanish, juggs can also dcd heal, even snipers can heal 25k hp every roll

 

Yeah I think they need to add more healing actually. All classes should get bigger/better heals. Healfests are the best.

[Seterade]

having a roll is fine. haveing a gap closer is fine. haveing 10-15 cd on your gap closer, fine and balanced. but con roll is not a gap closer. its a dcd on 10 cd that resists everything and all things for 1.5 seconds and when combined into 2 is a 3 immunity to everything with a 15 sec cd. there is a reason "interupt immunity" and "cc immunity" abilitys are rare with long cds or requirment activation. (see "interupting ARS merc grant 4 second of interupt immunity" or "force charging someone on venge jugg grants cc immunity for 4 secs") but these "buffs" dont god resist all things and most have a longer cd than 8-16 seconds. Edited February 7, 2020 by Seterade

[RodneyMcNeely]

It's not the damage and mobility of the DPS Scoundrel/Operative that bothers me.

 

It's the fact that their self-heals and DCDs make them FAR tankier than they have a right to be.

 

When a mediocre player can facetank anything they want to on a DPS spec, something is fundamentally broken.

[tharlainmar]

having a roll is fine. haveing a gap closer is fine. haveing 10-15 cd on your gap closer, fine and balanced. but con roll is not a gap closer. its a dcd on 10 cd that resists everything and all things for 1.5 seconds and when combined into 2 is a 3 immunity to everything with a 15 sec cd. there is a reason "interupt immunity" and "cc immunity" abilitys are rare with long cds or requirment activation. (see "interupting ARS merc grant 4 second of interupt immunity" or "force charging someone on venge jugg grants cc immunity for 4 secs") but these "buffs" dont god resist all things and most have a longer cd than 8-16 seconds.

 

So how do operatives get close to someone in 1v1 or even 1v2 trying to survive and get away? they roll. Without roll they have no other type of anything to get close to someone, holotraverse on 30 secs with it not working more than than any other ability in the game aside from phantom stride, and countermeasures on 45 secs cd, aside from those 2, operatives will be moving around the game with base movement speed lol. Root is a 4m ability along with its hardstun, the Knife throw root is only 2 secs long at 10m range, if you don't want roll give operatives Predation every 30 seconds that last a third of that CD basicallty, or Force Speed every 10-15 secs, im fine with it. Juggs can leap like every 10-15 secs? 4 secs of cc immunity with that short cd, Mercs have a Knockback, Hardstun, Missile blast root 30m range if they utility into it, and net which goes through white bar, not to mention 30m range instant concussion missile also with every dmg ability being over 30m range and hydraulic override, Operatives literally have no other movespeed increase ability aside from countermeasures and 4m range skills

[Raansu]

They should just remove the roll and give us operatives force speed every 12-15 seconds and force shroud like sins

Sorcs have self heals, mercs have self and dcd heals, sins can take a utility to heal when they vanish, juggs can also dcd heal, even snipers can heal 25k hp every roll

 

And if it were up to me, all of those abilities would be gone. Ever since arenas came out they have creep'd up the self sustainability of classes and its making everyone tanky. Its terrible.

[Seterade]

So how do operatives get close to someone in 1v1 or even 1v2 trying to survive and get away? they roll. Without roll they have no other type of anything to get close to someone, holotraverse on 30 secs with it not working more than than any other ability in the game aside from phantom stride, and countermeasures on 45 secs cd, aside from those 2, operatives will be moving around the game with base movement speed lol. Root is a 4m ability along with its hardstun, the Knife throw root is only 2 secs long at 10m range, if you don't want roll give operatives Predation every 30 seconds that last a third of that CD basicallty, or Force Speed every 10-15 secs, im fine with it. Juggs can leap like every 10-15 secs? 4 secs of cc immunity with that short cd, Mercs have a Knockback, Hardstun, Missile blast root 30m range if they utility into it, and net which goes through white bar, not to mention 30m range instant concussion missile also with every dmg ability being over 30m range and hydraulic override, Operatives literally have no other movespeed increase ability aside from countermeasures and 4m range skills

 

I didnt suggest roll be removed, thats raansus thing. I suggested it not have 200% dodge, only yellow resist. did you know that lethality has a 30% white dodge chance and makes a 27k-35k heal? in the time it takes to do that a con op can mitigate 10x that amount.

Edited February 7, 2020 by Seterade

[Raansu]

I didnt suggest roll be removed, thats raansus thing. I suggested it not have 200% dodge, only yellow resist. did you know that lethality has a 30% white dodge chance and makes a 27k-35k heal? in the time it takes to do that a con op can mitigate 10x that amount.

 

Ops used to have a speed boost on sneak. Give that back plus having holotraverse and stealth out they'd be fine. They never needed roll to begin with, let alone full friggan immunity to everything on roll. If they let them keep the roll at least remove the immunity on it along with the dodge proc. Its supposed to be a movement skill, not a "I can avoid all damage" BS.

[Jarbarian]

Nerf Operative/Soundrel gear or whatever it takes to make them on an equal level with other classes.

 

Gunslingers need help, they are paper cannons and easy to kill.

 

Shadows need a nerf too.

 

DPS Jugg Tanks (in DPS spec) need nerfs.

 

Some Sorc/Sage get sets need nerfs.

 

This game is broken and not sure why the developers are dragging their feet to fix it. Its like WOW developers but with a far less sense of urgency.

 

When my feral was OP in S3, they nerfed us in a couple days.

[Darkchip]

But thats just it you said S3 they had a much bigger PvP player base then.

 

Look at them now they have made a system that lets them nerf based on PvP without it effecting PvE this game doesn't have a system like that and i have to say wanting to nerf a class just for PvP is very selfish and bad.

 

You could completely screw up the balance for PvE with alot of the changes and just look at your list all i see is nerf nerf nerf nerf.

 

I for one am glad they are taking their time to see what they can do but you also have to remember alot of people don't PvP so PvP isn't very high on their list of reason to nerf/buff if it was we would be seeing like how WoW used to do it and have nerfs and buffs nearly every week.

 

What they need to do is do what WoW did and make a system that lets them change the damage for PvP before they really do any big changes, they already did a change to PT's with their price is right set and now next to no one uses it and they got a massive earfull from the PvE side because the change was a PvP one.

[timovdt]

Or you could learn how to counter them.

 

So meny people just go REE REE NERF NERF without even bothering to learn to fight them, some classes are going to have advantages over others and once you know what they are you can learn how to fight them, For concealment they are a very predictable you know what they are going to try and do which is to open with a backstab to get their acidblade up then volitile so alot of their burst will come in at the start so what do you do, A) pop your defences at the start B) just grit you teeth and hope to deal with it C) call for help while trying to deal with them.

 

A and C are both good in this encounter once you deal with their opening burst they are going to just follow their rotation of being annoying but if you can deal with them uptil you fill your bar then you have them dead to rights and if you hold until your backup shows up then they are ether going to flee and heal up or try and finish you fast then deal with the backup all the while trying to mez the other guy since you a immune for a bit.

 

It really isn't that hard and if it's a assassin vs op well let me tell you that op is going to HATE that assassin because they can just purge the volitile all the while laughing their butts off at the op because that also means bye bye acidlash. Their are always counters to every class and some have a much higher skill cealing them others and i'm sorry but this is a clear L2P issue for how to deal with them, you see them pop their evade then just deal base damage to them until it's gone one it is open hell on them their cooldown will be for naught and they will be sweeting their butts of since they wasted their evade.

 

There is truth to learing how to deal with a certain class the issue becomes when even when you know how do deal with them they can still execute there gameplan without you being able to defend against it aside from god tier level plays like perfectly overloading hyst before they are going to backstabyou from stealth Yeah you might be able to do that once or twice but its not a fair if we had to be be 10times as good as an operative to even stand a chance also the fact that they have so many defensive tools to deal with the damadge from certain specs like for example lighting sorcs cannot damadge an operative if the op is good since he can roll every TB And click every crushing Darkness and then you sit there while he tears you a new *** some classes can somewhat deal with an operative in a fair way atm in assasins and mercs they are not amazing at it but they are atleast not powerless to stop them but the fact that only 2 specs in the game stand any chance at all shows you something if verry wrong with the class IMO the roll and the DCD's + the fact you cant camera turn vs the root are the biggest problems with the class they are atm the most tanky dps if played Decently and near imortal if play godlike in anything but a premade vs a none premade scenario they are the last on the kill priority while having the second best burst in the game and are also extremly good in keeping up the preshure on a single target again i dont see a point in gutting the class but something needs to be done like i can be fine with keeping there damadge as is if they just remove some defensive tools of them so once they actuly reveal them selves you can atleast swap to them with your team and perhaps force the operative to disengage so restealth is not just a extra life + it whould make getting cought out between objective rotations in normal wzs not a death sentance

[timovdt]

But thats just it you said S3 they had a much bigger PvP player base then.

 

Look at them now they have made a system that lets them nerf based on PvP without it effecting PvE this game doesn't have a system like that and i have to say wanting to nerf a class just for PvP is very selfish and bad.

 

You could completely screw up the balance for PvE with alot of the changes and just look at your list all i see is nerf nerf nerf nerf.

 

I for one am glad they are taking their time to see what they can do but you also have to remember alot of people don't PvP so PvP isn't very high on their list of reason to nerf/buff if it was we would be seeing like how WoW used to do it and have nerfs and buffs nearly every week.

 

What they need to do is do what WoW did and make a system that lets them change the damage for PvP before they really do any big changes, they already did a change to PT's with their price is right set and now next to no one uses it and they got a massive earfull from the PvE side because the change was a PvP one.

 

They could do the split balance but i doubt they will. I also agree opertives dont realy need nerfs in pve a tiny dps nerf whould not hurt them but its also not needed the problem with operative in pvp is there kill combo while being extremly tanky if played well both of those can be fixed without affecting pve outside of verry niche scenarios

[Seterade]

my suggestions wont hurt pve. realisticaly while much of pve is indeed white dmg most of the time in ideal scenarios the boss/adds will be on tank not operative, in addition to this a full immunity to yellow is very dangerous and very viable for for pve. if your tnk loses aggro once in a blue moon chances are you wont be globaled in two second cuz you dont have evasion on 5 sec cd anymore.

 

"back"stab on con op and leth op are both things of the past, since both of them can now stab from the front with every rotation. so no, allowing "turning" during root wont change pve in that way either (again boss shouldnt be facing you)

 

as for 15 sec added to hrd stun, most if not all stuns in pve are soft stuns, most enemy are usually immune as well. ultimately having hrd stun almost twice as short as everyone else is a gimmick and while cute and fun doesnt really make or break pve content.

 

when I ran through all the possible nerfs you could do to an op to bring him to level with everyone else I was careful to only suggest things that wouldnt break them in pve. it was a hrd road accepting that this game is a pve one with a minigame pvp mode, but I accepted that 1 year into 5.x and never looked back.

Edited February 8, 2020 by Seterade

[Darkchip]

There is truth to learing how to deal with a certain class the issue becomes when even when you know how do deal with them they can still execute there gameplan without you being able to defend against it aside from god tier level plays like perfectly overloading hyst before they are going to backstabyou from stealth Yeah you might be able to do that once or twice but its not a fair if we had to be be 10times as good as an operative to even stand a chance also the fact that they have so many defensive tools to deal with the damadge from certain specs like for example lighting sorcs cannot damadge an operative if the op is good since he can roll every TB And click every crushing Darkness and then you sit there while he tears you a new *** some classes can somewhat deal with an operative in a fair way atm in assasins and mercs they are not amazing at it but they are atleast not powerless to stop them but the fact that only 2 specs in the game stand any chance at all shows you something if verry wrong with the class IMO the roll and the DCD's + the fact you cant camera turn vs the root are the biggest problems with the class they are atm the most tanky dps if played Decently and near imortal if play godlike in anything but a premade vs a none premade scenario they are the last on the kill priority while having the second best burst in the game and are also extremly good in keeping up the preshure on a single target again i dont see a point in gutting the class but something needs to be done like i can be fine with keeping there damadge as is if they just remove some defensive tools of them so once they actuly reveal them selves you can atleast swap to them with your team and perhaps force the operative to disengage so restealth is not just a extra life + it whould make getting cought out between objective rotations in normal wzs not a death sentance

 

I agree with you in a sense but at the same time i also don't.

 

Their will always some classes that are just harder to deal with or are stright up hard counters.

 

The Op is honestly in the hard counter/OP range i will admit it, yes they are amazingly powerful in the hands of a really good player and honestly to get that good they deserve the power they have but again thats in the hands of a really good player. Their are ways to throw them off their game which i have already pointed out but any good player will adapt and change on the fly which is another one of their strengths.

 

They have always been a really strong class for PvP it's one of the reasons why both them and assassins have always been feared in PvP but lately the power gap has gone more towards the ops, That is mainly because they have the more reliable defencive cooldowns in evade and shield probe both of them are amazingly strong and giving them roll really just gave them more mini evades but again if you know what you are looking out for they can be brought down.

 

Once you get their defences down they are just as killable as any other players and they will try to flee which is where you need to nib them in the bud and trap them and if you can well dead operative. They are powerful in the right hands but that is true for every class it's just that some have a much easier time then others at being that top dog take PT's with the right price they were MONSTERS and i do mean monsters but with that being nerfed well i don't even see anyone running that set anymore which sucks because it does still look like a interesting set and i wish i had it before the nerf.

 

We will have to wait and see what happens because honestly the PvP side of this game does have people that love it and i can respect that but it is well and truely smaller then the PvE side and the rated part of it seems to be well and truely on the decline to the point that when a pop happens on fleet people cheer in the PvP chat which tells me it's not in a good place.

[timovdt]

I agree with you in a sense but at the same time i also don't.

 

Their will always some classes that are just harder to deal with or are stright up hard counters.

 

The Op is honestly in the hard counter/OP range i will admit it, yes they are amazingly powerful in the hands of a really good player and honestly to get that good they deserve the power they have but again thats in the hands of a really good player. Their are ways to throw them off their game which i have already pointed out but any good player will adapt and change on the fly which is another one of their strengths.

 

They have always been a really strong class for PvP it's one of the reasons why both them and assassins have always been feared in PvP but lately the power gap has gone more towards the ops, That is mainly because they have the more reliable defencive cooldowns in evade and shield probe both of them are amazingly strong and giving them roll really just gave them more mini evades but again if you know what you are looking out for they can be brought down.

 

Once you get their defences down they are just as killable as any other players and they will try to flee which is where you need to nib them in the bud and trap them and if you can well dead operative. They are powerful in the right hands but that is true for every class it's just that some have a much easier time then others at being that top dog take PT's with the right price they were MONSTERS and i do mean monsters but with that being nerfed well i don't even see anyone running that set anymore which sucks because it does still look like a interesting set and i wish i had it before the nerf.

 

We will have to wait and see what happens because honestly the PvP side of this game does have people that love it and i can respect that but it is well and truely smaller then the PvE side and the rated part of it seems to be well and truely on the decline to the point that when a pop happens on fleet people cheer in the PvP chat which tells me it's not in a good place.

 

The thing is at what point do we draw the line of where a class that is somewhat hard to play can get rewarded for it vs the somewhat more difficult class just always wins. plus concealment is not even That hard to play there are a bunch of other specs that are harder to play for less reward think of stuff like carnage. i know you dont mean it like this but if we take your logic to the extreme you can have a class that is literly a 100% win if you are a god altho not a single human will be able to play it is just a godmode if you could again in theory. For me the power of a more dificult class should be in its flexibility not its in its output directly this is wy stuff like the roll is so uterly insane since its a what 12 second DCD with almost 0 counterplay yes you need to be decent at timing it especialy with the delay and latency ect but even with that most average operatives can do this with almost 90% succes rate making it rather easy to do. and there are more things operative has like there burst for example is one. it is from what i have played of operative not that hard to pull of i would even say that TK/Lings opener/burst is more complex and harder to exectute since it one requires more apm and the chance that you will be under preshure in a pvp scenario is also allot higer so again bye your logic TK/Ling's burst should be higer then that of concealment and carnage should be higer then that ect ect.....so that whould still put operative in the catogory of over preforming since well if i remeber correctly.

 

melee DoT - 105% target dps

melee burst - 100% target dps

ranged DoT - 100% target dps

ranged burst - 95% target dps

 

Is what Bioware sees as balanced so we can asume the burst output of classes should folow that same logic

and then again there are classes that dont folow this pattern.Its not that i think this logic of BW if it actuly is there's. It has been a while and i cant find a link to the place i read this but i swear it was a BW post somewhere.

I think its horrebly flawed since you dont look at for example the DCDs Damadge reductions kiting tools healing ect. so bye any form of logic i try and find operative is always the one that brakes it so either every other class does not fit any logical plan or its operative that is the outlier

(sorry if this is a bit messy writing this way to late in the night/morning ?)

[mothbanquet]

Ops are primarily a de-facto 1v1 PvP spec. I've never been more than an average-skilled player with them but I had good success (in regs, mind) just by picking sensible fights and playing to the class's strengths. If you find yourself 1 on 1 with an Ops, unless they've already blown their DCDs it's just not a fight you're likely going to win. You have to manage the conditions of the fight, not play into their hands by trying to DM with them.

 

The only way to beat or scare off a good Ops player is teamwork, no more, no less. You see an Ops, you concentrate fire on them until they run or stealth, in which case they're not DPSing. Their HOTs, contrary to the beliefs of some, are insufficient to stand up to the DPS of two or more players. Leverage numbers against them and if you have those numbers, for the love of god don't all just follow the Ops in the same direction like a spastic conga line, encircle them and they're easy pickings.

 

I can't speak for ranked, but I'm sure ranked players would echo this sentiment at least.

[Darkchip]

Yep like Moth said 1v1 yes they are monsters but the moment a compadent ally joins the fight their advantage just flys out the window, back when they had kolto injection yes they could reliably 1v2 or even 1v3 if they were really skilled now they have kolto probes which while giving them a 6% damage reduction if they take the trait that they have to not only manage but keep a eye on and the probes give negligible healing at best.

 

Can it tip the scales well yes but is it the same as just getting 1/4 of their health back in one move no way, in regs yes ops are perceved as this monster class that will just descimate a enemy team with little effert but that couldn't be further from the truth they are just like everyone else just that they use the fear that they bring to their advantage.

 

Most pugs don't know how to deal with them and just zurg towards them never even thinking most of the time to call for backup for even when backup arives most of the time they just attack not even thinking and playing right into their game.

Edited February 9, 2020 by Darkchip

[Raansu]

But thats just it you said S3 they had a much bigger PvP player base then.

 

Look at them now they have made a system that lets them nerf based on PvP without it effecting PvE this game doesn't have a system like that and i have to say wanting to nerf a class just for PvP is very selfish and bad.

 

You could completely screw up the balance for PvE with alot of the changes and just look at your list all i see is nerf nerf nerf nerf.

 

I for one am glad they are taking their time to see what they can do but you also have to remember alot of people don't PvP so PvP isn't very high on their list of reason to nerf/buff if it was we would be seeing like how WoW used to do it and have nerfs and buffs nearly every week.

 

What they need to do is do what WoW did and make a system that lets them change the damage for PvP before they really do any big changes, they already did a change to PT's with their price is right set and now next to no one uses it and they got a massive earfull from the PvE side because the change was a PvP one.

 

A lot of utilities in this game could be nerfed/removed without even hurting pve. Much of the problem child utilities were created for pvp to begin with.