PTS Phase 3 - Flashpoint Balance

[DreadtechSavant]

Ran Esseles on Vet mode. This was OK on level 75. Not hard but was time consuming. Rewards for the second and third boss (though no reward at all the first boss) were ok. The Sith at the end reward was well less than the second and third boss as such was underwhelming. As a solo player the bonus boss could not be done.

 

Comp, Had Lana to start with but half the time she just stood there doing nothing. So had to switch comps.

 

I do wonder if a lower character can now do vet mode on this at all? On live now I can do vet mode on a character that's just left starter world. So it seems now Vet mode has been removed from them. It was very useful for getting some artefact quality gear for characters that's just left starter world. All in all not sure this change is a good one.

 

Will try story mode for this flashpoint on a character just leaving Ord Mantel, to see if the gear is worth having from it for characters levelling. If not in a effect you just made this flashpoint pointless for levelling or new players! As you get better gear from starter world heroics.

Edited October 4, 2019 by DreadtechSavant

[Batwer]

That make zero sense. Nathema was always a level 70 as you have to be that level before you reach it. Hammer station was original for level 16's so seem pointless making it a level 70 when level sync came to the game. You can still pick Hammer station up as a quest on Taris as that was originally set for that planet's level. So many of the now level 70 flashpoints were originally much lower so your statement is nonsensical. Making it easier but still for level 70''s still removes it for lower characters. Was not talking about flashpoint set after chapter 3. Just go back to how it was before level sync.

 

Arrg, my stupid English.

 

I mean with that:

 

1. All FP in the VM. Should only be accessible for real 70s.

 

OR

 

2. (and I would prefer that) All FP are adjusted so that each level can do it. Means: a group of level 15, can do it just as easily as a group of 70s.

[Ergnot]

Before testing the balancing, I wanted to change my gear to your recommended specs for a lightening Sorc. You recommended the "Endless Offensive" set and "Elemental Convection" tactical. I found the tactical, but can find nothing like the set you recommended. It hasn't dropped nor can I purchase it. Any thoughts?

[cibacrome]

I have only run Vet Hammer so far, but it's a mixed bag for me. Boss fights feel just about right with a group of 4 75's compared to live, but trash feels excessively hard right now. This has been a problem all along in scaling, but this version is probably the best tuning by far. Once trash mobs are tweaked down a bit I think it's going to be a spot on.

 

I can solo vet hammer on live with a 50 comp no problem. I'm not against making it harder in 6.0, but I don't think it should be the trash that's harder to clear. Solo'ing vet Hammer in PTS 3.0 is an issue - trash is really hard to pass, too much dps, lots of armor - i.e. considering I'm doing @10-11k dps they should be going down faster. I'd cleared through to 1st boss but got a GF pop before I started that fight so I'll try again today sometime.

 

But food for thought: since running content is so important to gearing now, and there are a lot of players who are NOT into grouped content in this game, I think it's prudent to have some avenues to reliable gearing, and Vet Hammer is an ideal candidate. If it can be solo'd by a competent player in 252 gear with a lvl 50 comp I think it's a good gearing option for those that don't like to group up.

[FlameYOL]

Veteran Mode seems pretty straightforward and doable.

[ElectroFidgit]

Before testing the balancing, I wanted to change my gear to your recommended specs for a lightening Sorc. You recommended the "Endless Offensive" set and "Elemental Convection" tactical. I found the tactical, but can find nothing like the set you recommended. It hasn't dropped nor can I purchase it. Any thoughts?

 

Where did you see this recommendation? If this is what is recommended, I'd like to know as well.

[dipstik]

some trash hit too hard and bosses seemed kind of easy in vet mode.

 

adrenals and relics being useless in any content seems like bad design to me.

 

i am a proponent of scaling, not capping.

[dipstik]

Where did you see this recommendation? If this is what is recommended, I'd like to know as well.

 

look at the dev posts that are "a day in the life of" recently

[Ergnot]

Dxun is very challenging, but works given the gear. However, I do feel the last boss, Huntsman and his friends, is a bit too much for story mode. You might want to dial he back a bit.

[JainiaDral]

Ran Esseles on Vet mode. This was OK on level 75. Not hard but was time consuming. Rewards for the second and third boss (though no reward at all the first boss) were ok. The Sith at the end reward was well less than the second and third boss as such was underwhelming. As a solo player the bonus boss could not be done.

 

Comp, Had Lana to start with but half the time she just stood there doing nothing. So had to switch comps.

 

I do wonder if a lower character can now do vet mode on this at all? On live now I can do vet mode on a character that's just left starter world. So it seems now Vet mode has been removed from them. It was very useful for getting some artefact quality gear for characters that's just left starter world. All in all not sure this change is a good one.

 

Will try story mode for this flashpoint on a character just leaving Ord Mantel, to see if the gear is worth having from it for characters levelling. If not in a effect you just made this flashpoint pointless for levelling or new players! As you get better gear from starter world heroics.

 

I'm curious to see what you think

 

For me, the worst part is that a new toon does little to no damage against any of the mobs, especially golds. Aside from the bugged areas on the imperial ship where the droid and your companion desert you, I wasn't in any real danger of dying the whole time. But it took forever to make any progress. I just ran Esseles last week on live (or was it two weeks ago?-- time gets a little wonky when you're sick as a dog) on a brand new Commando coming off Ord Mantell. Jorgan was at lvl 2 or 3, I think. It took me 1/3 the time to get through the mobs and the bosses didn't take long at all. On my main legacy, I've got about half of the datacrons unlocked, while on the PTS, I've got nothing.

 

The Sith at the end of the flashpoint went through his pushback/saber throw attack about seven times on the PTS. Live, I saw it twice on my Commando. The whole flashpoint felt like a tedious slog, just really unfun. It's too bad-- the Esseles is usually one of my favorite parts of my average Pub toon's story.

[Exly]

I used my 258 gear to do some vet fps and pvp matches and it worked fine. I didn't bother trying the new gear because of how tedious it is to get (even with the way they have set things up on the pts).

 

I can only imagine how frustrating it's going to be when 6.0 goes live, and playing the game will be made less enjoyable because of the super tedious grind that they have planned for us.

[SaerethDL]

I did hammer station on vet and thought it was tweaked fine.. people complaining about veteran mode not being able to be soloed, well thats exactly the point, you are not suppose to be able to solo vet modes because it is group content, play story mode if you want to solo.

[OlBuzzard]

Well with the level bump and pet healing nerf. Can't solo any more, so in other words you broke it.

 

Last night before I went to bed I tried 2 or three of the FP's from Odessen … ( Crisis on Umbara for example) . Normally I could complete at least one or two … Not any more. I couldn't even get past the multiple turrets with Elli-Vaa and Technician Canni (just for example) ... I was in story .. solo mode. and yes I have completed this before in story mode !

 

Oh well... at least this should keep most everyone happy !

Edited October 5, 2019 by OlBuzzard

[Unperson]

Conclusion : impossible to solo for 99.99% of players (if at all). Standard and silver grade mobs are the ones doing more damage and they are usually in a group, so they can hit really hard if you don’t cc some or can AOE hard.

If it wasn’t for the increase in those standard and silver mobs, you could still do veteran solo (if you could before), it would just take longer.

 

I just ran VM HS with a 50 Lana in DPS stance and me as a sin tank in 306 unaugmented gear. Last boss got me down to ~20% before dying. I also had to restart once because Lana ate the initial cleave and was left under 30%, but other than that zero problems.

 

Nowhere near "impossible" is what I'm getting at. More useful feedback and less hyperbole please.

 

Like, for instance. I also ran Manaan, this time with a group. Ortuno insta-killed two who were in the water puddles when the lightning began, and bosses took forever to kill. As a result, we were expecting to fail on Stivastin because of the time limit, but it was fine.

 

VM is a bit harder than what I'd expect for entry-level group content, perhaps. Mechanics are more punishing than on live, but they have added the "Beginner's Luck" buff to compensate.

Edited October 5, 2019 by Unperson

[MarkkuJ]

I've run five HS veterans now and the trash seems to be overtuned on dps they dish out, was full 306 mercenary which normally can survive pretty decent in all-dps runs, didn't die there but using big dcd's on trash seems a bit overkill.

Bosses on HS were normal, that is pretty easy, the last boss you need to get out from the sweeping fast, but that's common sense, and the trash on that fight seemed like they were totally different from the rest of fp.

[McBaal]

There are going to be a bunch of story guys saying veteran can only be played by group and will be extremely pissed off,

I do hope Bioware have considered this and will think about offering them a toned down SM version or some of those players are going to leave the game. Which is the last thing this game needs,

 

And i am one of them, so kudos to you. It already annoys me that story players can not enjoy most of the FPs due to the way they are designed (too hard for most characters to solo, other player characters talking in the cinematics, skip or kickvote mentality) Ia played most of the FPs over the years, but still don't know anything about the story they are telling. Pathetic and sad and by now i have my doubts that Bioware will make SM versions of all FPs. In addition the 6.0 content appears to be very story lacking and group focus. I do get why they are doing this after 4.0 and 5.0. However i liked the KOTEX expansions due to the amount of story content and the option to replay them. And i am a paying customer as well for years without a break, even while not playing for months i supported the game by staying subscribed. So Bioware, please give us SM FPs or make them otherwise soloable (all of them). Stop serving just one of the groups (PvE, PvP, story) while kicking the others between the legs. The solo and story content is a make or break element for me and from what i have read so far i will not be pleased about the changes coming with 6.0.

[TrixxieTriss]

some trash hit too hard and bosses seemed kind of easy in vet mode.

 

adrenals and relics being useless in any content seems like bad design to me.

 

i am a proponent of scaling, not capping.

 

You can handle the increase in the trash damage and health... but... As long as there aren’t too many in a group.

 

Aka that first double gold droid fight in Hammer Station has so many trash mobs that they do more damage than the gold droids. Making it impossible to get past as a solo player.

That, plus how much harder the trash is to kill is what makes soloing some flash points like Hammer Station so hard now.

I still think I could solo the bosses, but it would be more difficult than before.

The biggest issues I’ve found for balance is trash mobs seem to be what’s been tuned up the most.

 

From the testing in different content, my conclusion is Bioware’s idea of hard is to either add more trash mobs in some content to make it harder, or up the health of trash mobs and increase their damage .

I’m not sure if that’s the best way to increase the difficulty because it doesn’t take a case by case basis and different content has different mechanics and built in difficulty to start with.

 

10 trash mobs hitting you all at once can theoretically hit harder than a White Star boss and healing comps can’t keep up and you blow through DCDs while trying to grind them down.

 

While some things are balanced and a group of 3 trash mobs isn’t that difficult to take down, but there are some instances where there are just too many mobs at once to deal with the changes. Even as a stealth, you can’t sneak past because you can’t cc droids and they can detect you.

Edited October 5, 2019 by TrixxieTriss

[Sambril]

Last night before I went to bed I tried 2 or three of the FP's from Odessen … ( Crisis on Umbara for example) . Normally I could complete at least one or two … Not any more. I couldn't even get past the multiple turrets with Elli-Vaa and Technician Canni (just for example) ... I was in story .. solo mode. and yes I have completed this before in story mode !

 

Oh well... at least this should keep most everyone happy !

 

I tried this also. I picked the flashpoints from the group finder window - story mode.

 

Level 75 focus guardian, rank 47 Lana, 268 gear from terminal (weapon and off hand my old 252s since the ones from terminal are empty).

 

Canni and Elli-Vaa is certainly tougher than the other bosses in there and I did die once during the fight and just about scraped through the second time - Lana was down and I just killed Canni before a DoT got me. I think if I paid a bit more attention to what was going on, used my CDs, stims and health stations more wisely I could do it without dying. In comparison, the other bosses, including the bonus boss were straight forward, health was never in danger.

Loot - everything I got was an upgrade (when at the bottom the only place is up I guess), including a main and offhand from the bonus boss.

 

Then I went to fleet and played vendor roulette for a while and got my gear to 282 before heading to Copero. That big droid first boss was a pain, and I died once here also, mostly through not watching my health enough - but it didn't seem harder than live when I did it for solo-story. I did have to use the health stations, but that's what they're there for right? Other bosses were a bit easier than the droid, but it felt close to live.

Loot - most was same level or lower except for the last boss which gave some 284

[ElectroFidgit]

So if I'm understanding the way the new scaling engine works it's an all-or-nothing approach? either everything is balanced downward back to original levels with level sync or everything is jacked to 70 with bolster. if this is indeed how the scaling works then I would suggest that it makes more sense to err on the side of things being too easy at lower levels at least when it comes to veteran mode. the reason for this is because we already see in the current live version of the game that the level 70 scaling has the side effect of alienating players. I hear it all the time, well if I get queued with anybody under 70 I'm just not going to run it. but if everything is scaled to original leveling then if you're queued with someone who has a level 25 for a level 25 Flashpoint then everything should go okay and you can move through the flash point and go about your day. if you want something more challenging than the level 25 Flashpoint that you've been scaled down to, isn't that the whole point of hard mode? Why bother even having a difficulty choice if everything's just going to be balanced for the people who are always going to think everything's too easy. I mean the whole point of the Grand experiment that is 6.0 is to try and be as inviting as possible to as many people as possible Right? Not to alienate people by balancing for the hardcore. Correct? Edited October 5, 2019 by ElectroFidgit

[Yezzan]

My Feedback is this:

 

Basically , full DPS groups will have a nightmare completing normal Fps. They are over-tuned. Did Legacy of the Rakata with 2 healers and pretty much everyone died at least twice before the FP was completed. And I think we all were in 306

[cyrusramsey]

My issue is that.. yeah, veteran FPs maybe felt very easy before, but most people were (and are) testing them on capped characters. On live I almost never play veteran FPs on capped character, I use them to level lowbies, and am cringing at the people celebrating them becoming a challenge on capped characters, when we've got MM for that, and vet--despite the implication of its current name, allows for low level characters so should also allow those characters to complete them..

[neavenlucy]

I did hammer station on vet and thought it was tweaked fine.. people complaining about veteran mode not being able to be soloed, well thats exactly the point, you are not suppose to be able to solo vet modes because it is group content, play story mode if you want to solo.

Totally agree it's group content. Solo FP are just that solo. If you want to try to solo vet thats fine, just remember it's not made for solo players. I don't think the devs should pander and change group content to appease solo players. I think vet FP are in a god place with this phase.

[allexj]

Disclaimer I have not gotten on the test server.

 

Story mode FP should be soloable with lower rewards.

Vet content and above should require a group, with better rewards.

 

The above should be philosophy for content in the game.

 

As far as harder open world content, create an instance that everything is harder for such content. A player can select what they wish to participate in.

[OlBuzzard]

Totally agree it's group content. Solo FP are just that solo. If you want to try to solo vet thats fine, just remember it's not made for solo players. I don't think the devs should pander and change group content to appease solo players. I think vet FP are in a god place with this phase.

 

Don't worry... IMO... It's safe to say that BW is no longer pandering to anyone any more !

[TrixxieTriss]

Disclaimer I have not gotten on the test server.

 

Story mode FP should be soloable with lower rewards.

Vet content and above should require a group, with better rewards.

 

The above should be philosophy for content in the game.

 

As far as harder open world content, create an instance that everything is harder for such content. A player can select what they wish to participate in.

 

Wow, that sounds rational, reasonable and logical. If only we could get Bioware to see it that way. We’ve only been saying it for 2-3 years?

 

FYI, sarcasm not directed at you.