Remove kolto probes from operative DPS

[robertthebard]

I don't know what that means. Do you mean the teams get stacked on one side? That rarely happens anymore, and if you look at the pvp forums, you'd see that some people actually wish that would come back (and I've argued forcefully against them, because the new matchmaking is much more fair and leads to the most balanced matches possible)

 

Or do you just mean that people argue over strategy in solo ranked? That sometimes happens, but usually the correct strat is fairly straightforward for experienced ranked players. Sometimes if someone confidently puts forth a strat that I don't agree with I'll go along with it (unless it's completely wrong), because following some kind of strat and focusing properly is always better than chaos, even if it isn't ideal.

 

No, it's a whole group of people soloing. I can't tell you how many times I was glad that I live alone, when my guild leader wasn't using Push to Talk in WZs. It was further amplified when several of them were in different groups running WZs, all cussing about the same thing; everyone doing their own thing, no matter what the objectives were. I won't talk about win trading, I know very little about it, except that it was alleged to be a thing.

 

The only place I found PvP to be fun was OW stuff, like when the Pubs raided our base on Sec X, or when I spent an entire weekend during a Gree event, while it was only on for a weekend, killing, and being killed by other players. There was the time we took over a pub base on Tatooine too, that was fun. But WZs, no thx, 1 2 3 go just isn't my thing.

[JediMasterAlex]

No, it's a whole group of people soloing. I can't tell you how many times I was glad that I live alone, when my guild leader wasn't using Push to Talk in WZs. It was further amplified when several of them were in different groups running WZs, all cussing about the same thing; everyone doing their own thing, no matter what the objectives were. I won't talk about win trading, I know very little about it, except that it was alleged to be a thing.

 

The only place I found PvP to be fun was OW stuff, like when the Pubs raided our base on Sec X, or when I spent an entire weekend during a Gree event, while it was only on for a weekend, killing, and being killed by other players. There was the time we took over a pub base on Tatooine too, that was fun. But WZs, no thx, 1 2 3 go just isn't my thing.

 

Well, remember that ranked pvp is only arenas, so there are no objectives. And in solo ranked, you queue solo, so it's unlikely that you'll be in voice chat with your team unless you all try to sync queue with friends or something (you'd have just as good a chance to be on opposite teams due to cross faction now).

 

But, what you've generally described is actually my single biggest pet peeve while playing ranked. I cannot stand when people start attacking enemies at random, rather than focusing/ccing the correct, pre-planned and pre-marked targets. Because focusing like that doesn't take any skill. Even if you don't manage your dcds and die early, or you aren't optimally dpsing, it's usually quite easy to attack the correct target. Sometimes that will require you to chase a target a bit, but that's usually the best way to win. If you constantly switch targets when one runs away, nothing will ever die.

 

Anyway, I could go on about that, but really, it doesn't happen that much in ranked (though still more than it should). Most of the time people at least try to follow the established kill order.

[Benirons]

So i was listening to some of my guildies talk about ranked pvp things and operative off healing capability did come up as well. Consensus was that they can do that pretty darn well. And were saying something along the lines of replace that capability with a defensive instead.

 

I think that would be a great idea. By default they only have evasion and shield probe (stealth if u count it is as such). They dont have one of those long CD but strong defensives like say undying rage just to give an example.

 

Trading one for the other should hopefully set minds at ease on all sides instead of straight up taking something away and giving nothing back.

[Seterade]

lol, ops have far more than that.

[Rion_Starkiller]

So i was listening to some of my guildies talk about ranked pvp things and operative off healing capability did come up as well. Consensus was that they can do that pretty darn well. And were saying something along the lines of replace that capability with a defensive instead.

 

I think that would be a great idea. By default they only have evasion and shield probe (stealth if u count it is as such). They dont have one of those long CD but strong defensives like say undying rage just to give an example.

 

Trading one for the other should hopefully set minds at ease on all sides instead of straight up taking something away and giving nothing back.

 

Look, the trinity is set up is so that classes with a heal spec can off-heal. The classes with a tank spec can taunt and guard. All 3 taunting classes are targeted first, partially because of those abilities, partially because they have no anti-focus abilities (or in the case of sins/shadows, they're squishy, but dangerous, if left alone).

 

You wouldn't be complaining about op-scoundrel offheals if they were higher in the kill priority.

Edited May 16, 2019 by Rion_Starkiller

[Seterade]

I would 100% go op first if their roll didnt resist the entire game

 

because of their offhls. we dont leave them alone because we dont care, we leave them alone because they have subpar dps and their annoying to chase while 3 other people gank someone who doesnt resist everything

 

I know I said it before, but heres a refresher.

 

con op roll is not a "broken effect" its:

 

a) has a broken cd for what it does. 2 1.5 every 10 seconds

 

and b) well.. its a little bit the effect... a con op roll was never brought in line with mad dash, sniper roll or various other. with those you resist intial dmg, but all added effect carry over. such as a DoT or a status effect. (im not 100% on the status thing.. its been too long since I was involved in learned every in an out....

 

and if anyone is curious as to why exactly con roll works this way... its because way back in the wee hours of 3.0 evasion on opperative used to work like force shroud, they took no yellow or white dmg during evasion. but bioware nerfed evasion near the end of 3.0/begin 4.0. a con roll is basically a gap closer with the original evasion active.

Edited May 16, 2019 by Seterade

[ufarax]

I rarely PVP, I remember when operatives had an orbital strike when Marauders marauded. I stink at PVP, yet I do not complain and demand nerfs. A nasty fact, the vast majority of TOR players do not PVP, they are (PVP players) however the most vocal part of the community and the first to bolt and try something new. PVP players are like seagulls they fly in and crap over everything then fly away. :eek::eek:

 

 

 

"That's it man, game over man, game over"

[Seterade]

I rarely PVP, I remember when operatives had an orbital strike when Marauders marauded. I stink at PVP, yet I do not complain and demand nerfs. A nasty fact, the vast majority of TOR players do not PVP, they are (PVP players) however the most vocal part of the community and the first to bolt and try something new. PVP players are like seagulls they fly in and crap over everything then fly away. :eek::eek:

 

 

 

"That's it man, game over man, game over"

 

I dont pve because the content makes me fall asleep its so easy. we demand nerfs and buffs because unlike your content, ours is hard and we actually die if the class needs to be balanced. /hugs you

[Rion_Starkiller]

I would 100% go op first if their roll didnt resist the entire game

 

I assumed he was talking about ruffian/lethality. Roll-heal to victory!

[foxmob]

bangs head against wall*

 

trixxie... do you know why "nerf ops" is a swtor meme? its because bioware refuses to nerf their dcds. instead they nerf dps..

 

uh....

 

no.

 

it's because they were nerfed to the ground after being entirely too powerful in their burst spec (scrapper/concealment). and they spent YEARS afterward waving wet noodles b/c they lost their superior control and burst. i.e., they were severely gimped (overnerfed). they are the posterchild for BW overreacting.

 

the healing op only became a thing a few years ago with the dot spec getitng roll heal. ops have always had great escape ability. not at all the same thing as healing.

Edited May 16, 2019 by foxmob

[katees]

----- Edited December 14, 2021 by katees

[Seterade]

uh....

 

no.

 

it's because they were nerfed to the ground after being entirely too powerful in their burst spec (scrapper/concealment). and they spent YEARS afterward waving wet noodles b/c they lost their superior control and burst. i.e., they were severely gimped (overnerfed). they are the posterchild for BW overreacting.

 

the healing op only became a thing a few years ago with the dot spec getitng roll heal. ops have always had great escape ability. not at all the same thing as healing.

 

half right. they did nerf their dps, but that is really only a pve concern, because they have enough dps and burst to stall out every class in swtor 1v1. in a perfect game of balance and equal 1 spec should not be capable of beating everyone else 1v1. it doesnt matter if "thats what their good at" "give them that one thing" is not a reason to make a game unbalanced. what you do to balance a game is you make them good at something else, then change them so they are not unbeatable.

 

imo the nerf would be very simple. remove 200% dodge from roll and just make it resist. wont break it, wont make it OP, done and done.

 

I wouldnt mind it actually if they overhauled the whole class. the fact that everything they do that another class can do, they do better is kinda disgusting.

Edited May 17, 2019 by Seterade

[foxmob]

half right. they did nerf their dps, but that is really only a pve concern,

 

like hell, bud. they nerfed them HARD because they were killing ppl in stunlock in vanilla. vanilla was a wild west time for a lot of classes, tbh. and the gear differential was quite large. hence the myriad other reasons that ops could kill an opponent before they ever gained control of their toon. HOWEVER, that was very much the reason that their dps was nerfed into oblivion.

 

a stealth class with burst and control is always going to irritate the non-stealth majority. BW nerfed both their burst and their ability to stunlock, thus nerfing them into irrelevance where they remained for quite some time. there was a brief revival early in the roll era, but for the most part, the burst spec was irrelevant. but the meme for nerf OPs originates in the initial nerf. it's like "what would brian boytano do?" the answer to everything is "nerf ops!"

 

edit: by healing op, I was referring to the dps dot spec playing the healer, as he would often rival or outheal the hybrid sorc in yolos...prolly around s3 or s4? it wasn't right away. but relatively early in the life or ranked 4s.

Edited May 17, 2019 by foxmob

[SlimeyDoom]

I was a HM/NiM Progression raider right up until 5.0 dropped [i was never even close to being a 5%er and I pretty much hated NiM, but that's the deal in progression groups, you do what the leader says], after which, when they took all the gear out of Operations and all the Raid teams disbanded and players left, I became a full time PVPer. [Tho I had already started getting into PVP in about the middle of 4.x]

 

There is prejudiced on both sides. PVPers think that Raiders are less skilled because of 'scripted mechanics' which in the case of HM/NiM is moronic. NiM is without question the hardest content in the game bar none, and knowing how Ranked plays, it isn't close in terms of difficulty.

 

You don't have the clears, don't talk the sh%t.

 

PVPers are toxic as all hell, let's be real, we all know that. It's virtually a right of passage and a subculture all it's own.

NiM Raiders, especially the 5%ers, they don't do that shyt, they don't have to, they already know they're better, and they're aren't wrong, they are better.

 

There is no 'carrying people' in NiM.

 

You want that in PVE? Than you have to clear Queen ***** on Hard Mode. Good luck that if you are not a raider and don't have a raid team. You don't clear you will never ever have 258 MH/OH.

 

I've been playing Carnage for over 6 and half years straight, don't tell me that nerf wasn't because of PVE. 3 second windows in an environment that CCs are thrown around every 2 or 3 seconds, where you can be slowed indefinitely if people wish to do so and have some help, if you pulled off the window properly half the time you were lucky as hell.

 

Is this a joke post?

 

Let's get a few things straight. You say you're a HM prog player. HM in this game is so easy that if that's what your progression is on, you do not have the expertise to comment on the difficulty of NiM content. These operations have been out for years, being a "HM Prog raider" is not a flex.

 

Secondly, high level group ranked is many, many times harder than nim content. I had NO experience with operations at all prior to a few months ago, and me and my ranked group were able to jump straight to nim content when we decided to pick it up out of boredom. As a healer main, I can safely say that none of the NiM content has hps checks that are particularly difficult to reach (I won't comment on NiM Gods, I haven't done that yet). The only thing that slows down good pvpers from clearing all the nim content with ease are the mechanics, that's the only thing that we had to pick up and learn.

 

But having cleared almost all the operations on nim, and having been on the best group ranked team in North America for the past three seasons, I can straight up tell you that group ranked against people who know what they're doing is much harder. From what I gather from your post, you have barely done NiM content, and I know for a fact that you are not a member of a good group ranked team. Who here is more qualified to comment on which game mode is harder?

 

As an end note, you seem to suggest that pvpers don't have the skill to clear HM Queen. We had it on farm after the second pull and got everyone in our guild plus some friends all the 258 MH/OHs they needed. I still have extra Monumental Data Crystals on multiple toons if I want to gear more characters. If you'd like some pointers, let me know.

Edited May 17, 2019 by SlimeyDoom

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I have to disagree. Honestly, I don't even think pvpers and nim raiders should be compared in terms of skill because what they do is so different. I've seen hm/nim raiders in regs and they had no clue what they were doing, and I'm sure some of the top ranked pvpers would be horrible in nim operations. You can't say one is more difficult than the other because they require different skill sets. If nim ops were harder, then it follows that nim players would be good in pvp because it's "easier." Obviously this isn't the case, so we shouldn't really be comparing the two because they both require a lot of skill on the player's part.

 

I don't disagree with that. Perhaps I was unclear, or more likely, my choice of words were poor.

 

A nim raider who goes into regs without expeirence, will definately get his *** handed to him for the next three weeks. No doubt about it.

 

My point was that you can take the best Ranked player ever, and if he doesnt have raiding experience, and he goes into a NiM operation he will be the worst performer he will be the reason they fail.

 

They are definitely two individual beasts, alien to one another.

 

That said, I do still feel that the level of skill necessary to complete say DF/DP NiM does require a higher level of skill for success than for a PVPer in Ranked.

 

Ranked simply doesn't require that kind of perfection, or should I say nearly so often. Just like in ranked, one persons action does effect other players. But if one player in ranked doesn't do so good their team can still win.

 

NiM has some one shot mechanics, and instances where someone's action can insta wipe the whole group.

 

PVP requires skill, no question about it. But, I don't find Ranked as demanding in that regard as I did with NiM. To be fair though, I was no 5%er, but I did have a 75% NiM clearance rate as of 5.0. I stopped being a Raider when 5.0 dropped.

 

I absolutely hated NiM with every fiber of my being, but, when you are ina raid group you do what the leader says. I didn't think we'd move so quickly from HM into NiM as we did. It can take a group sometimes weeks to drop one boss. It's extremely frustrating, to say nothing of costly in repairs and yiur ego can start to itch after a while from so much failure.

 

Even when you lose in Ranked, you still gain, not as much as you would had you won of course but still. Obviously I'm only referring to the Monumental Weekly and UCs. Your elo, if thats a big concern for a player clearly suffers terribly for it.

 

You can do solo ranked with out using VC, you can't do NiM that way.

 

I'm not trying to insult anyone, in fact, I am strictly a PVPer myself since 5.0 [ I started PVPing somewhere in the mid range of 4.0], but while I'm no longer a Raider I see the perspective from both sides of the fence and I wouldn't be comfortable letting something said about one side or the other that I didn't think was true without speaking to it. I guess in that regard I'm not partial to either if something like that was said, I'd speak up for either side.

 

Perhaps my wording was incesitive, It wasn't intended to be though, I apologize if that's how it sounded.

 

But if someone is going to say they think NiM is easier than Ranked PVP because you can "just go online read some walkthrus and watch some videos and it's all scripted so it's not hard" that's what I am object to.

 

Let me say it like this than. In my opinion, NiM is the hardest content in the game.

 

Again I apologize if my wording was poor, I wasn't at all trying to speak down to PVPers, I am one. There is tons of skill in PVP.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Is this a joke post?

 

Let's get a few things straight. You say you're a HM prog player. HM in this game is so easy that if that's what your progression is on, you do not have the expertise to comment on the difficulty of NiM content. These operations have been out for years, being a "HM Prog raider" is not a flex.

 

Secondly, high level group ranked is many, many times harder than nim content. I had NO experience with operations at all prior to a few months ago, and me and my ranked group were able to jump straight to nim content when we decided to pick it up out of boredom. As a healer main, I can safely say that none of the NiM content has hps checks that are particularly difficult to reach (I won't comment on NiM Gods, I haven't done that yet). The only thing that slows down good pvpers from clearing all the nim content with ease are the mechanics, that's the only thing that we had to pick up and learn.

 

But having cleared almost all the operations on nim, and having been on the best group ranked team in North America for the past three seasons, I can straight up tell you that group ranked against people who know what they're doing is much harder. From what I gather from your post, you have barely done NiM content, and I know for a fact that you are not a member of a good group ranked team. Who here is more qualified to comment on which game mode is harder?

 

As an end note, you seem to suggest that pvpers don't have the skill to clear HM Queen. We had it on farm after the second pull and got everyone in our guild plus some friends all the 258 MH/OHs they needed. I still have extra Monumental Data Crystals on multiple toons if I want to gear more characters. If you'd like some pointers, let me know.

 

I disagree with almost everything you said.

 

First and foremost, I didn't say I was a HM progression raider. I said I was a HM/NiM progression raider. I do not make the claim of being a 5%er either.

 

 

No one has the skill to clear HM Queen who has no raiding experience. That's what I said, If a person is only a PVPer they will definately not be able to clear HM Queen.

 

That goes both ways. If a NiM raider goes into even Regs or Ranked and he is the best NiM raider ever, he is going to get his *** handed to him night and day. He will be the worst performer in that group.

 

If you are telling me you had no raiding exo

 

Because you have raiding experience, of course it wouldn't be something you couldn't do. I'm talking about exclusive PVPers and exclusive raiders. But you didn't do that with a pugged team. Your not doing that with a pugged team,

 

You can lose every ranked match you do, after 50 of them you will be half way to gettting your MH/OH 258, you do that again the next week, you have your 258 MH.

 

If you don't clear Queen ***** on HM [making a comparison of losing 50 ranked matches] you will never get the 258 MH.

 

So, that's why I said, it was easier to do it in Ranked than in ***** Queen HM. If you lose the fight, you will never get anything. That was my point.

 

As far as I am concerned, meaning, I don't care what you think, I think NiM is the hardest content in the game.

 

You saying it isn't is no more compelling to me than me saying it is will likely be to you. There is nothing you will say that will change my mind in that regard.

 

Ohh and btw, there's no cheating going in NiM. - Please spare me your denials that there isn't cheating of one sort or another going on in Ranked. As a former NiM raider yourself, you would know that, if you don't agree with that, not hard to figure out why that would be.

 

There is boatloads of skill needed in PVP. I never said anything to contrary. I do believe NiM is the hardest content in the game. Period.

 

I'm not going to go back and forth on this. I'm not falling into traps to get me banned again for 3 months like the last 19 times some idiot who disagreed with me set me up for it. After 6.0 dropps, we can go back and forth all you like, I want to be around on the forums for all the changes and requests from devs for ideas and all that good stuff, I miss it every single time I don't get to say one thing about changes. I'd like to for once.

 

I'll rain check infraction 44 for you.

 

I've said my peace on this subject. Your not changing my opinion. I'm not taking your word on anything.

[SlimeyDoom]

My, my, my

 

First and foremost, I didn't say I was a HM progression raider. I said I was a HM/NiM progression raider. I do not make the claim of being a 5%er either.

Weird flex, but ok. If you're not the top 5%, why are you making blanket claims about the game, when someone who is ACTUALLY the top 5% in what they do is telling you otherwise?

 

No one has the skill to clear HM Queen who has no raiding experience. That's what I said, If a person is only a PVPer they will definately not be able to clear HM Queen.

I don't know what to tell you. I'm in Ruining Lives, we didn't do any pve content at that time, but that boss fight is insanely easy. It's literally just do dps + manage adds, there is nothing challenging about it whatsoever and we farmed it without having any raiding experience. We started raiding after we did that boss, because it seemed easy.

 

If you are telling me you had no raiding exo

Because you have raiding experience, of course it wouldn't be something you couldn't do. I'm talking about exclusive PVPers and exclusive raiders. But you didn't do that with a pugged team. Your not doing that with a pugged team,

I don't know how many times I can repeat one thing before you get it. We were exclusively pvp players who killed the boss on our second try then farmed it on alts for weeks. It's an easy boss, it's not a big deal.

 

As far as I am concerned, meaning, I don't care what you think, I think NiM is the hardest content in the game.

So you don't do group ranked, don't do alot of nim content, but if someone who actually does both of those game modes alot says something, you must be right and they must be automatically wrong. The logic

 

Ohh and btw, there's no cheating going in NiM. - Please spare me your denials that there isn't cheating of one sort or another going on in Ranked. As a former NiM raider yourself, you would know that, if you don't agree with that, not hard to figure out why that would be.

There's plenty of wintrading in ranked. That's not high level team ranked, that's not what I'm talking about. Not sure what that has to do with your argument. My team doesn't cheat, we record our matches and post them online as proof. People also don't cheat in pve because nim content is not that challenging considering you can overgear for it, why would you cheat for such easy content

 

I've said my peace on this subject. Your not changing my opinion. I'm not taking your word on anything.

You don't do ranked, you don't do alot of nim content, but you read about them alot on the forums so you're an expert compared to someone who actually plays those game modes. I love dealing with people who act like this when they're clearly wrong

Edited May 18, 2019 by SlimeyDoom

[SlimeyDoom]

DF/DP NiM does require a higher level of skill for success than for a PVPer in Ranked.

LOL what?? I'm a healer main, so I will just say right now that DF/DP nim healing is many times easier than healing high end team ranked matches. Literally anyone can sit there freecasting during brontes burn and pull upwards of 14k ehps with very little struggle. It's not hard, it hasn't been hard for a long time, please stop spreading this misinformation.

[Seterade]

I think what we can all agree on here is NiM is hard to grim. right? hes saying its the hardest content hes done? great, kiss and make up. Edited May 18, 2019 by Seterade

[Fellow-Canadian]

Long time PvP scoundrel checking in here. Is the off heals too op? I would say for scrapper spec the off heals is right where it should be. The DPS falls off a cliff when you try to be a healer.

 

Ruffian spec though is seriously good at what it does. It will always have dots rolling with the added benefit of even stronger heals. I have on many occasions circumvented the need for healers and still put out amazing DPS. It feels too strong. I'd trade some healing for improvements with the slow ramp up time.

 

- a video I made where I kept up damage with everybody else but came close to matching the opposing healer.

 

It's one gate check is that it's a very complex dance of keeping buffed dots+hots rolling, dealing damage and surviving. It's not easy to do but it's a fun as hell style to play.

Edited May 18, 2019 by Fellow-Canadian

[Benirons]

Long time PvP scoundrel checking in here. Is the off heals too op? I would say for scrapper spec the off heals is right where it should be. The DPS falls off a cliff when you try to be a healer.

 

Ruffian spec though is seriously good at what it does. It will always have dots rolling with the added benefit of even stronger heals. I have on many occasions circumvented the need for healers and still put out amazing DPS. It feels too strong. I'd trade some healing for improvements with the slow ramp up time.

 

- a video I made where I kept up damage with everybody else but came close to matching the opposing healer.

 

It's one gate check is that it's a very complex dance of keeping buffed dots+hots rolling, dealing damage and surviving. It's not easy to do but it's a fun as hell style to play.

 

Thanks for posting that vid, it clearly demonstrates the imbalance of ruffian/lethality. Ur team is basically 1 tank 3 dps 1 healer v 3 dps 1 healer.

 

Things need to change.

 

Off topic: y do all the pvpers have to zig zag left n right. It is so annoying to see/watch, and i find it doing absolutely nothing.

[Seterade]

the answer to your question is: LOS

 

you cant Line Of Sight in pve because AI mechanics allow them to sight you 24/7 meaning only casts can be effectively LOSd in pve. In pvp however simplely zigzaging left and right is enough to LOS 90% of this games population. And since it has no real downside vs the 10% it doesnt on work you may as well build a habit of it. This is also an answer to the long standing question from pvers and pvpers both "why do pvers stand in place when fighting" or "why do pvpers move while fighting"

 

also..... dont mess with lethality. just trust when I say this, lethality is global bait. if they are not top 3 level operative 9/10 you can go lethality and blow him up. there isnt a top ranked player in this game you could convince that lethality is overperforming in arena pvp. their dps is all fluff, if their getting burst off (corrsive assault) then they arent offhling everyone.

Edited May 19, 2019 by Seterade

[sharkfishman]

Off topic: y do all the pvpers have to zig zag left n right. It is so annoying to see/watch, and i find it doing absolutely nothing.

 

They're trying to cause desync. Depending on your connection, they would basically disappear/be un-targetable for several seconds.

[Seterade]

They're trying to cause desync. Depending on your connection, they would basically disappear/be un-targetable for several seconds.

 

As tried and true constant mover/zig zagger/hopper in pvp I can 100% confirm I have never once intentionly attempted to cause desync by taking the long way to my dinner.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Seterade

[JediMasterAlex]

also..... dont mess with lethality. just trust when I say this, lethality is global bait. if they are not top 3 level operative 9/10 you can go lethality and blow him up. there isnt a top ranked player in this game you could convince that lethality is overperforming in arena pvp. their dps is all fluff, if their getting burst off (corrsive assault) then they arent offhling everyone.

 

I agree. That's the thing that people seem to get confused about when it comes to offhealing in pvp. Yes, it can be very effective in certain situations (such as 2v1s), but mostly it's quite an inefficient way to spend your time. It takes a lot of resources, and you cannot effectively dps while you're doing it. Sure, ops can throw out hots, but that's not going to do anything for someone actually getting focused, and now one of your dps isn't doing their job.

 

Frankly, I think offguarding is a much more powerful tool than offhealing, but it's really only practical for dps sins to use.