Remove kolto probes from operative DPS

[JediMasterAlex]

i had a great discussion with one of my friends, mac, about operative dps and how the whole class needs a redesign, i couldnt agree more

 

concealment has always been this weird gimmicky off healer dps hybrid. the only reason they are good is because they are good at running away. having a melee class that is designed around run away as a defensive is completely absurd (one of the reasons i was all for them removing phase walk from sin dps and adding 60% dr on phase speed). give dps operatives dcds that actually matter, remove roll immunity and nerf their healing by 50%. give them dcds that allow them to stay in the back line and be an actual melee class without having to run away every time they get hit and heal up. removing roll immunity and their healing would make those secondary to the spec and making dps be the primary focus of the class, as it should be.

 

I don't play operatives, and I think they're pretty balanced, so I don't have a dog in this fight. Your suggestion is interesting, but it reminds me of your recent suggestions for mercs. Wouldn't these changes just make ops pretty much the same as maras? Right now ops have quite a distinct play style, but your changes would make them much more similar to the other melee classes. In an mmo, I'm really not sure that's a good thing.

[kissingaiur]

I don't play operatives, and I think they're pretty balanced, so I don't have a dog in this fight. Your suggestion is interesting, but it reminds me of your recent suggestions for mercs. Wouldn't these changes just make ops pretty much the same as maras? Right now ops have quite a distinct play style, but your changes would make them much more similar to the other melee classes. In an mmo, I'm really not sure that's a good thing.

 

Mercs are range, operative dps is melee. If a melee can cannot survive being hit by multiple dps they are forced to not attack, they are worthless. Melee need better dcds then range dps because of this fact. Range dps can kite , los damage and have range advantage. Look at sin having abilities like 60% dr on force speed so they can stay in range of someone without needed to disengage. What do operatives have? Shield probe? That’s a joke. Evasion is just for white damage and stimboost is barely enough dr for a melee class with an insanely long cd. Dps Operatives literally need roll immunity and hots to actually survive damage, that requires them to constantly disengage just to survive as a melee dps. It makes literally no sense. Remove roll immunity and change how stimboost works for concealment, make it on a 20 second cd with a higher dr percentage (remove alacrity or make it a internal cd so it doesn’t effect pve dps).That would be an interesting change that would get the class away from running to survive and actually stay in range to dps. Something like that would be interesting for concealment instead of what we have now.

 

Edit: maybe don’t even get rid of roll immunity, but make it a dcd with a 45 cd so it cannot be spammed.

Edited June 27, 2019 by kissingaiur

[JediMasterAlex]

What do operatives have? Shield probe? That’s a joke. Evasion is just for white damage and stimboost is barely enough dr for a melee class with an insanely long cd. Dps Operatives literally need roll immunity and hots to actually survive damage, that requires them to constantly disengage just to survive as a melee dps. It makes literally no sense. Remove roll immunity and change how stimboost works for concealment, make it on a 20 second cd with a higher dr percentage (remove alacrity or make it a internal cd so it doesn’t effect pve dps).That would be an interesting change that would get the class away from running to survive and actually stay in range to dps. Something like that would be interesting for concealment instead of what we have now.

 

Edit: maybe don’t even get rid of roll immunity, but make it a dcd with a 45 cd so it cannot be spammed.

 

But it works though. Dps ops are quite good right now. Their ability to dance around self healing, engaging and disengaging, controlling enemies with cc, offhealing, are all what make their play style unique. I don't see why that's a bad thing. If you remove some of that and give them stronger dcds, they become no different from maras, which is what I was trying to say before.

[kissingaiur]

But it works though. Dps ops are quite good right now. Their ability to dance around self healing, engaging and disengaging, controlling enemies with cc, offhealing, are all what make their play style unique. I don't see why that's a bad thing. If you remove some of that and give them stronger dcds, they become no different from maras, which is what I was trying to say before.

 

concealment is gimmicky af, that is all it it is. concealment is only strong in solo ranked because majority of the time it gets to 2v2 and 1v1 situations where they can just 1v1 everyone to death by using their roll immunity and running away to heal. if they have enough time they can just out last everyone because of their healing. that is terrible class design not a strength. the fact is, the more people in a game the less effective the class is. that is why in actual team fights they always been subpar dps because of how squishy they are and being a melee dps that has to spend gcds to to run away and doing 0 damage. hence why they always been bad in teams; you just tunnel them and all they can do is run way the whole time, they have almost no dr to actually stand their ground and do damage. this is also from i heard has been an issue in problem in pve environment as well. the class is just mechanically just a bad melee class.

[TrixxieTriss]

concealment is gimmicky af, that is all it it is. concealment is only strong in solo ranked because majority of the time it gets to 2v2 and 1v1 situations where they can just 1v1 everyone to death by using their roll immunity and running away to heal. if they have enough time they can just out last everyone because of their healing. that is terrible class design not a strength. the fact is, the more people in a game the less effective the class is. that is why in actual team fights they always been subpar dps because of how squishy they are and being a melee dps that has to spend gcds to to run away and doing 0 damage. hence why they always been bad in teams; you just tunnel them and all they can do is run way the whole time, they have almost no dr to actually stand their ground and do damage. this is also from i heard has been an issue in problem in pve environment as well. the class is just mechanically just a bad melee class.

 

I’ve not been a big Operative player over the years, but both my wife and I decided it was time to start. We’ve both been playing them for a few months and I agree with your assessment 100%.

Plus PvE activities only highlight how mechanically bad the spec can be when it takes twice as long to kill bosses because none of your stuns, mez, mechanics actually work on them.

So you spend most of your time rolling away to heal etc. It can be a real grind if you are trying to play solo and it’s not fun.

Pvp isn’t much different in my opinion. You spend so much time wearing the enemy down and you can’t really 1v2 anyone all you can do is delay. Your only hope is to out last them with your heals. It’s why I find the spec frustrating because I’d prefer to do some actual dps instead.

I’m certainly not great on an OP, so maybe it’s a L2P issue for me, but it’s my second least favourite class in the game after PTs.

I’ll take a Sin DPS over an Op any day because you can actually stand and fight.

[Seterade]

only thing I want to change about op is move the full white dmg immunity during con roll to leth.

 

why? because leth has a wannabe white dodge rating of 30%, so why not make it 200%. as for why it should be removed from con op? imo it is very simple. no class deserves absolute immunity to stuns, dmg and or effects every 10 seconds. taking evasion from it will allow them to keep yellow dmg resist and stun resist but will allow actual counter

 

if con operative need a new dcd to make up for it, that is fine. imo the only broken about them is that one thing.. Im choosing not to get into a 15 secs lower cd hard stun. if bioware changed con roll... I could live with 30 sec hrd stuns.

Edited June 28, 2019 by Seterade

[JediMasterAlex]

the more people in a game the less effective the class is. that is why in actual team fights they always been subpar dps because of how squishy they are and being a melee dps that has to spend gcds to to run away and doing 0 damage. hence why they always been bad in teams

 

Granked is irrelevant because it's no longer played. See the leaderboards. Regs are...regs, and ops have other utility there anyway in the form of stealth capping and defending.

 

concealment is gimmicky af

the class is just mecanically just a bad melee class.

 

You make these statements like they're facts, but they really aren't. Many pvpers love playing ops the way they are (again, I don't play ops, so I wouldn't care at all if they changed them). Mechanically, they work very well. They just have a different play style than other melee dps. You're totally welcome to your opinion that you think they should change to a more traditional melee class design, but I don't think you have a monopoly on how classes should function mechanically. Your merc suggestions from another thread had the same problem. You seem to have a very clear idea in your head about how classes should work in this game, and if a class doesn't fit into that you think it should change. That doesn't make you right.

 

But anyway, I'm happy to agree to disagree on this issue.

Edited June 28, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[foxmob]

You make these statements like they're facts, but they really aren't. Many pvpers love playing ops the way they are (again, I don't play ops, so I wouldn't care at all if they changed them). Mechanically, they work very well. They just have a different play style than other melee dps. You're totally welcome to your opinion that you think they should change to a more traditional melee class design, but I don't think you have a monopoly on how classes should function mechanically. Your merc suggestions from another thread had the same problem. You seem to have a very clear idea in your head about how classes should work in this game, and if a class doesn't fit into that you think it should change. That doesn't make you right.

 

But anyway, I'm happy to agree to disagree on this issue.

 

you know that's a symptom of yolos, right? I'm not attacking solo queues. I solo (reg and ranked) almost exclusively. but the homogenization of classes is largely influenced by solo queuing. everybody needs a reflect. everybody needs a "sprint." everybody needs a stealth heal. everybody needs a white/yellow immunity. etc. so that everybody can win a team game without coordinating (much) with their team.

 

/2cents

[kissingaiur]

only thing I want to change about op is move the full white dmg immunity during con roll to leth.

 

why? because leth has a wannabe white dodge rating of 30%, so why not make it 200%. as for why it should be removed from con op? imo it is very simple. no class deserves absolute immunity to stuns, dmg and or effects every 10 seconds. taking evasion from it will allow them to keep yellow dmg resist and stun resist but will allow actual counter

 

if con operative need a new dcd to make up for it, that is fine. imo the only broken about them is that one thing.. Im choosing not to get into a 15 secs lower cd hard stun. if bioware changed con roll... I could live with 30 sec hrd stuns.

 

i am also in agreement. i had the same feeling for ruthless aggressor on maras (which the devs nerfed) and also the same thoughts to fury rotational cc immunity (needs to be removed; spec doesn't need it, it would still be a high parsing spec in pvp and extremely hard to kite). i feel like giving a class short cd immunity as a survival mechanic is laziness, not good game design. replace it with something different.

[kissingaiur]

Granked is irrelevant because it's no longer played. See the leaderboards. Regs are...regs, and ops have other utility there anyway in the form of stealth capping and defending.

 

 

 

 

You make these statements like they're facts, but they really aren't. Many pvpers love playing ops the way they are (again, I don't play ops, so I wouldn't care at all if they changed them). Mechanically, they work very well. They just have a different play style than other melee dps. You're totally welcome to your opinion that you think they should change to a more traditional melee class design, but I don't think you have a monopoly on how classes should function mechanically. Your merc suggestions from another thread had the same problem. You seem to have a very clear idea in your head about how classes should work in this game, and if a class doesn't fit into that you think it should change. That doesn't make you right.

 

But anyway, I'm happy to agree to disagree on this issue.

 

im not talking about specifically team ranked. i am talking about team fights as in, 4+ players fighting in a group against other players fighting in a group. this happens in every aspect of pvp, from regular warzones, to solo ranked to group ranked.

 

concealment as always struggled because of lack of dr which literally forces you into a box. many people are content on playing the class, yes, but that is because there is literally no other option, do not confuse that for proper game design. how is that an argument for the playstyle to be necessary anyways? just because players have adapted to a "running away" playstyle, that doesn't mean it doesnt mechanically makes sense for a melee class nor does it mean the class couldnt be improved.

 

i'm sorry but i cannot really take someone seriously that believes a melee class that has to run away, switching off its target every time it gets attacked, is a good or healthy mechanic for a melee dps. it logically makes no sense. that is also why i was told it actually is an issue for pve ( leth actually also had issues as well till they added shield probe buff).

 

yes, i do have suggestions on classes. i based it on playing this game for a very long time, constantly having discussions with intelligent players and seeing the ups and downs of all the classes for the years. majority of the classes have niches and others don't make sense at all. players in this game have this weird idea that developers are these idealistic thinkers that make the perfect changes to a class and that is how its suppose to be. that isn't how it works. many classes and specs over the years have had mechanical overhauls in this game that completely changed play styles. suggesting similar shifts in playstyle and how classes like concealment or merc operate is not baseless. I am also using logic to argue why these changes would matter because in my eyes its no different then other changes made in the past from medicine operative, to carnage, to fury, to sin dps to mercs, to corruption etc.

Edited June 28, 2019 by kissingaiur

[JediMasterAlex]

concealment as always struggled because of lack of dr which literally forces you into a box. many people are content on playing the class, yes because there is literally no other option. how is that an argument for the playstyle to be necessary? just because players have adapted to a "running away" playstyle, that doesn't mean it doesnt mechanically makes sense for a melee class nor does it mean the class couldnt be improved.

 

But there are many players that are beyond mere contentment and adaptation. Some actually really like it. I was talking to one of the top solo ranked ops about the class yesterday due to this thread, and he would hate it if they changed ops to be just like maras.

 

i'm sorry but i cannot really take someone seriously that believes a melee class that has to run away, switching off its target every time it gets attacked, is a good or healthy mechanic for a melee dps. it logically makes no sense

 

That's just not true. It logically makes plenty of sense, because it works, and it works rather well. If the class was actually broken and totally ineffective, like say pts, then you'd have a point. It's simply that ops use a different method to survive than maras and juggs. Just because it's different doesn't make it illogical. There isn't only one formula for "healthy" mechanics for melee dps. You just keep saying there is as if it's a fact already. Is there a universal law somewhere that defines how all melee dps have to function? Again, I'm all for you proposing changes to whatever you want, but you shouldn't pretend that you have some sort of logical high ground that you don't have.

 

players in this game have this weird idea that developers are these idealistic thinkers that make the perfect changes to a class and that is how its suppose to be. that isn't how it works. many classes and specs over the years have had mechanical overhauls in this game that completely changed play styles. suggesting similar shifts in playstyle and how classes like concealment or merc is not baseless.

 

I agree with you on this part. I've made similar arguments myself in other threads. The devs shouldn't be content to leave the game as is just because it works. They should always be considering ways that it can be improved. I think that small tweaks are preferable to major overhauls, but both have their place.

Edited June 28, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[kissingaiur]

But there are many players that are beyond mere contentment and adaptation. Some actually really like it. I was talking to one of the top solo ranked ops about the class yesterday due to this thread, and he would hate it if they changed ops to be just like maras.

 

i mean i could literally say the same thing about countless other people i know, both ranked pvpers and top pve raiders who would say the exact opposite.

 

That's just not true. It logically makes plenty of sense, because it works, and it works rather well. If the class was actually broken and totally ineffective, like say pts, then you'd have a point. It's simply that ops use a different method to survive than maras and juggs. Just because it's different doesn't make it illogical. There isn't only one formula for "healthy" mechanics for melee dps. You just keep saying there is as if it's a fact already. Is there a universal law somewhere that defines how all melee dps have to function? Again, I'm all for you proposing changes to whatever you want, but you shouldn't pretend that you have some sort of logical high ground that you don't have.

 

works well? you need more game experience if you think operatives work well in anything other than running away, healing and stalling. i do agree there is many ways of fixing melee dps in a healthy way but i dont believe that melee classes forcing to disengage as a leading spec mechanic is health in anyway. good melee dps is designed to be in melee range. to spend gcds to defend yourself and forcing to move away from the battle or your target is by definition bad for melee dps. good melee classes design revolves around dr dcds to stay in range and to do their damage. if your a class that doesn't have this, you are destined to be weak in group fights, weak tunneled and be forced to 1v1 off the at side nodes.

[JediMasterAlex]

i mean i could literally say the same thing about countless other people i know, both ranked pvpers and top pve raiders who would say the exact opposite.

 

For sure. My only point was that it's not one way traffic. Changing ops in the way you suggest would be far from universally loved.

 

works well? you need more game experience if you think operatives work well in anything other than running away, healing and stalling.

 

You just named their three strengths as a class. I see ops succeed regularly in solo ranked. They are in the top tier of dps after mercs, maras and snipers.

 

forcing to move away from the battle or your target is by definition bad for melee dps.

 

Not necessarily. If an op is being focused enough that they are forced to run away, that's a huge win for their team, because the enemy team will not be able to kill the op before someone on their team dies. As you're running away, you can still heal yourself, and potentially others. It's not as if the running away is spent being useless. Survivability is just as important, if not more important, than raw damage potential. Ops are almost always targeted last in solo ranked for this reason.

 

I think ops are actually one of the most balanced classes. They are good at some things and worse at others. How they perform damage-wise in full team fights is just one aspect to consider.

 

good melee classes design revolves around dr dcds to stay in range and to do their damage.

 

So again, you have a very clear idea of how you think melee dps should function, and you think ops should be changed to reflect that vision. That's fine, but you haven't made any case for why it has to work that way. You would just prefer that it work that way.

Edited June 28, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[kissingaiur]

For sure. My only point was that it's not one way traffic. Changing ops in the way you suggest would be far from universally loved.

 

i can't think of one change in this video game that was university liked or loved

 

You just named their three strengths as a class. I see ops succeed regularly in solo ranked. They are in the top tier of dps after mercs, maras and snipers.

 

apples to oranges comparison

 

solo ranked favors dps classes who off heal because the majority of the games are going to be 4 dps and 1 tank/3 dps. concealment also does well in solo ranked because very quickly games turn into 3v3 and 2v2s, they do well when they there less people because the class can just run away and heal.

 

merc/mara/sniper are strong in solo ranked because of their dcds which allows them high damage uptime

 

Not necessarily. If an op is being focused enough that they are forced to run away, that's a huge win for their team, because the enemy team will not be able to kill the op before someone on their team dies. As you're running away, you can still heal yourself, and potentially others. It's not as if the running away is spent being useless. Survivability is just as important, if not more important, than raw damage potential. Ops are almost always targeted last in solo ranked for this reason.

 

what are you talking about. their class design MAKES them run away to survive. this is NOT an advantage. its objectively a disadvantage; this is not an opinion a fact. this is literally the difference between a mara popping cloak of pain so they can stay on the target while being attack vs a operative who is force to roll away and do no damage. that concept is not hard to grasp. melee damage disengage is universally a BAD thing for melee. melee class design that revolves around this as a core defensive is a objectively a BAD thing. that is a fact not an opinion.

 

the only argument i could see for this playstyle to make sense is if concealment burst was just so good that the developers needed to design dcds that required them to disengage to counterbalance this dps output. this is far from the case.

 

I think ops are actually one of the most balanced classes.

 

your welcome to your own opinions.

Edited June 28, 2019 by kissingaiur

[JediMasterAlex]

apples to oranges comparison

 

solo ranked favors dps classes who off heal because the majority of the games are going to be 4 dps and 1 tank/3 dps. concealment also does well in solo ranked because very quickly games turn into 3v3 and 2v2s, they do well when they there less people because the class can just run away and heal.

 

merc/mara/sniper are strong in solo ranked because of their dcds which allows them high damage uptime

 

Exactly. Ops succeed in solo ranked by different means from mercs, maras, and snipers. That doesn't make them inherently worse.

 

what are you talking about. their class design MAKES them run away to survive. this is NOT an advantage. its objectively a disadvantage; this is not an opinion a fact. this is literally the difference between a mara popping cloak of pain so they can stay on the target while being attack vs a operative who is force to roll away and do no damage. that concept is not hard to grasp. melee damage disengage is universally a BAD thing for melee. melee class design that revolves around this as a core defensive is a objectively a BAD thing. that is a fact not an opinion.

 

It's not universally bad, because ops have insanely good survivability, so you're at least partially missing the point. Yes, the op loses dps uptime when it has to run away, but it can also survive a very long time if played correctly. So while all their dps are chasing around the op, the focus target on their team is going to die. That may not be a good thing for the individual op, because it will spend a lot of the round running and healing, which may or may not be great fun, but it will be a good thing for the team. Most frequently, ops are just left to freecast while other classes are focused and cc'd. And yes, ops can be caught if hardstuns are coordinated properly, but that's pretty difficult to pull off in solos with random teammates against decent ops. Granted, I mostly play a dot sorc, so I have zero burst and they reset my dots constantly.

[Delani]

i had a great discussion with one of my friends, mac, about operative dps and how the whole class needs a redesign, i couldnt agree more

 

concealment has always been this weird gimmicky off healer dps hybrid. the only reason they are good is because they are good at running away. having a melee class that is designed around run away as a defensive is completely absurd (one of the reasons i was all for them removing phase walk from sin dps and adding 60% dr on phase speed). give dps operatives dcds that actually matter, remove roll immunity and nerf their healing by 50%. give them dcds that allow them to stay in the back line and be an actual melee class without having to run away every time they get hit and heal up. removing roll immunity and their healing would make those secondary to the spec and making dps be the primary focus of the class, as it should be.

 

You do realize that would ruin the entire class LOL they are perfect just the way they are

[Delani]

Mercs are range, operative dps is melee. If a melee can cannot survive being hit by multiple dps they are forced to not attack, they are worthless. Melee need better dcds then range dps because of this fact. Range dps can kite , los damage and have range advantage. Look at sin having abilities like 60% dr on force speed so they can stay in range of someone without needed to disengage. What do operatives have? Shield probe? That’s a joke. Evasion is just for white damage and stimboost is barely enough dr for a melee class with an insanely long cd. Dps Operatives literally need roll immunity and hots to actually survive damage, that requires them to constantly disengage just to survive as a melee dps. It makes literally no sense. Remove roll immunity and change how stimboost works for concealment, make it on a 20 second cd with a higher dr percentage (remove alacrity or make it a internal cd so it doesn’t effect pve dps).That would be an interesting change that would get the class away from running to survive and actually stay in range to dps. Something like that would be interesting for concealment instead of what we have now.

 

Edit: maybe don’t even get rid of roll immunity, but make it a dcd with a 45 cd so it cannot be spammed.

 

thats why they have roots and so many hard stuns. If anything Operative is the most balanced class in the game, they should try making other classes as unique as operatives.

[Delani]

But it works though. Dps ops are quite good right now. Their ability to dance around self healing, engaging and disengaging, controlling enemies with cc, offhealing, are all what make their play style unique. I don't see why that's a bad thing. If you remove some of that and give them stronger dcds, they become no different from maras, which is what I was trying to say before.

 

I agree!!! chaning ops would be a HUGE Mistake and would make players who main operatives very upset. Dont fix what is not broken

[Delani]

only thing I want to change about op is move the full white dmg immunity during con roll to leth.

 

why? because leth has a wannabe white dodge rating of 30%, so why not make it 200%. as for why it should be removed from con op? imo it is very simple. no class deserves absolute immunity to stuns, dmg and or effects every 10 seconds. taking evasion from it will allow them to keep yellow dmg resist and stun resist but will allow actual counter

 

if con operative need a new dcd to make up for it, that is fine. imo the only broken about them is that one thing.. Im choosing not to get into a 15 secs lower cd hard stun. if bioware changed con roll... I could live with 30 sec hrd stuns.

 

Thats exactly why they are so good, they have absolute immunity to stuns, dmg and other effects. It makes up for them not having stun DR which is perfect. Thats what some of the weaker classes are lacking which needs to be fixed asap. If other classes could have something similar in effects as operative roll then every1 is happy. Maras/juggs have mad dash but other classes need something simllar but not too similar.

[Delani]

you know that's a symptom of yolos, right? I'm not attacking solo queues. I solo (reg and ranked) almost exclusively. but the homogenization of classes is largely influenced by solo queuing. everybody needs a reflect. everybody needs a "sprint." everybody needs a stealth heal. everybody needs a white/yellow immunity. etc. so that everybody can win a team game without coordinating (much) with their team.

 

/2cents

 

We need creativty and innovation. Give every class their own unique abitlity that allows them to outperform depending on how well they use it. Ops=roll, mercs =net, etc

[kissingaiur]

Exactly. Ops succeed in solo ranked by different means from mercs, maras, and snipers. That doesn't make them inherently worse.

 

 

 

It's not universally bad, because ops have insanely good survivability, so you're at least partially missing the point. Yes, the op loses dps uptime when it has to run away, but it can also survive a very long time if played correctly. So while all their dps are chasing around the op, the focus target on their team is going to die. That may not be a good thing for the individual op, because it will spend a lot of the round running and healing, which may or may not be great fun, but it will be a good thing for the team. Most frequently, ops are just left to freecast while other classes are focused and cc'd. And yes, ops can be caught if hardstuns are coordinated properly, but that's pretty difficult to pull off in solos with random teammates against decent ops. Granted, I mostly play a dot sorc, so I have zero burst and they reset my dots constantly.

 

i didn't think it was possible for someone missed all my points entirely to only focus on the little scraps of tangential information that paints their own narrative, bravo

Edited June 28, 2019 by kissingaiur

[QuiveringPotato]

For those talking about a rebalance for DPS op: I think 2.8 was about the best balanced the class ever was.

 

We hit extremely hard (even in lethality), were squishier than we are now, and we still had our nifty mechanics that let us be unique, but we actually had the guns to get in there and do the job if you were good enough.

 

Concealment now is like.. "HA! Take my mediocre, obvious set-up burst that will take like maybe a third of your HP down! Oh- oh, I just looked at my HP bar and I'm at 70% HP too? Oh-.. Was that a 40k heatseeker? Well, time to play operative tank *commence healing, rolling, and kiting/LoSing shenanigans*"

 

I remember being able to literally 3-shot an unprepared player in subpar gear in that patch. Then again, TTK across the board was immensely lower (remember carnage 100-0'ing people in less than 4 seconds?), but tbh I preferred it that way.

 

Also, while I'm not a *huge* fan of not being able to be an actual threat to anybody in a group fight a lot of the time due to how our survivability works and just our burst in general, I don't think that MOST operative players actually play the class to "top the board" in damage and all that. I know, it's not good for ranked for us to be balanced like this, but imo we aren't meant to be that sort of class. Assassin fills that role.

Edited June 28, 2019 by QuiveringPotato

[JediMasterAlex]

i didn't think it was possible for someone missed all my points entirely to only focus on the little scraps of tangential information that paints their own narrative, bravo

 

I literally quoted almost your whole post and responded to it directly lol. Oh well, you've clearly become so committed to this poorly thought out suggestion that you're unwilling to listen to reason.

Edited June 28, 2019 by JediMasterAlex