Unreal Engine 4 for swtor : missed opportunity

[fabsus]

hero is the game engine, havok is a socket on that

[lord-angelus]

Frostbite is as good as unreal engine 4. If not better. Anthem failure not just about using frostbite engine. I think bioware lost the talent. They've gone elsewhere. It really shows on coding, story telling and the culture. Watch Steve jobs video on product people vs sale people on the companies. It directly fits the bioware.

From business standpoints this game will never port to any other engine, its almost hard as creating the new game. Even if a miracle happens, it won't be unreal engine, will be frostbite. Well anything is better than this piece of s..t that they call engine.

I really don't understand with a budget of 200M they decided to go along with this engine. Serious lack of talent, iq, business management skills right there if you ask me

[DavidAtkinson]

Frostbite is as good as unreal engine 4. If not better. Anthem failure not just about using frostbite engine. I think bioware lost the talent. They've gone elsewhere. It really shows on coding, story telling and the culture. Watch Steve jobs video on product people vs sale people on the companies. It directly fits the bioware.

From business standpoints this game will never port to any other engine, its almost hard as creating the new game. Even if a miracle happens, it won't be unreal engine, will be frostbite. Well anything is better than this piece of s..t that they call engine.

I really don't understand with a budget of 200M they decided to go along with this engine. Serious lack of talent, iq, business management skills right there if you ask me

 

You can throw as many stones as you want at Bioware, but this game has some really serious behind it and it really shows in the vanilla game. If you compare it to the recent releases you can notice a significant drop in quality...that wasaround the time people started leaving.

 

With Anthem a series of events led to the the disaster it turned out to be. If you are an older gamer(am34 ), you could tell it's going to stink very very badly. For the younger generations it might have appealed more, but it seems like even the fanatics admit that it is not what they expected it to be..

 

As for this game, I think you are right. The engine was one of this reasons this game face planted shortly after release, but the core of the game is really well put together.

 

With game's like Anthem you don't see the love for the game.... and it shows in the end product. It's another lets milk customers type of game. I really don't get why publishers are so scum like this. Make a game people want and they gonna empty their wallets for it...

[TrixxieTriss]

Frostbite is as good as unreal engine 4. If not better. Anthem failure not just about using frostbite engine. I think bioware lost the talent. They've gone elsewhere. It really shows on coding, story telling and the culture. Watch Steve jobs video on product people vs sale people on the companies. It directly fits the bioware.

From business standpoints this game will never port to any other engine, its almost hard as creating the new game. Even if a miracle happens, it won't be unreal engine, will be frostbite. Well anything is better than this piece of s..t that they call engine.

I really don't understand with a budget of 200M they decided to go along with this engine. Serious lack of talent, iq, business management skills right there if you ask me

 

Actually there are a few articles around now from devs who have worked with frostbite and they all say it’s what holds everything up because it’s crap.

The recent one regarding Anthem said that one of the hurdles to make the game work was frostbite. It was missing documentation and tools to get things done. They couldn’t even do play throughs of the stuff they’d make because the build times was so long. It’s why the game released with so many bugs.

Edited April 6, 2019 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

You can throw as many stones as you want at Bioware, but this game has some really serious behind it and it really shows in the vanilla game. If you compare it to the recent releases you can notice a significant drop in quality...that wasaround the time people started leaving.

 

With Anthem a series of events led to the the disaster it turned out to be. If you are an older gamer(am34 ), you could tell it's going to stink very very badly. For the younger generations it might have appealed more, but it seems like even the fanatics admit that it is not what they expected it to be..

 

As for this game, I think you are right. The engine was one of this reasons this game face planted shortly after release, but the core of the game is really well put together.

 

With game's like Anthem you don't see the love for the game.... and it shows in the end product. It's another lets milk customers type of game. I really don't get why publishers are so scum like this. Make a game people want and they gonna empty their wallets for it...

 

Vanilla swtor has so much going for it. For all the problems at launch, they were minor and the core concept and quality of the game can still be felt when playing the vanilla part of the game vs the end game.

 

You are right though, the biggest thing that held the game back and is still holding it back is the engine. The pvp battle area in illum, which should have been awesome, had to basically be abandoned because the engine has trouble dealing with more than 16 players. I dare say it even has trouble with 16 people all in the same area. You only need to go do a world boss on Ossus to see what I mean.

 

As for Anthem. Part of the reason there was no love for the game was because the people working on it didn’t even understand what they were ultimately making or what the vision was. Even the people leading the team had very little idea what they would end up with. That was because Casey left the company and his vision became distorted and there was a mayor lack of leadership to take over and guid the project. (Major mismanagement till Casey came back)

There were many other issues too. But it wasn’t because the people working on it had no love. It was because they didn’t know what they were supposed to be making and they were treated terrible along the way.

There is a whole article about it called “How BioWare's Anthem Went Wrong” on Kotaku. I won’t link it because Bioware will just delete this thread or post. Just do a google search, It’s a very interesting read and gives a look behind the curtain at what happens at Bioware. I now have a completely different take on the devs of this game and feel bad if they are also treated in similar ways.

[Nemmar]

Stop assuming UE4 works for MMO's. TERA used UE3 and it performs terribly to this day, struggling to handle more than 4 players in an instance.

 

It's been 7 years. This game's engine can only be improved, not changed. Move on from this narrative.

Edited April 6, 2019 by Nemmar

[lord-angelus]

Actually there are a few articles around now from devs who have worked with frostbite and they all say it’s what holds everything up because it’s crap.

The recent one regarding Anthem said that one of the hurdles to make the game work was frostbite. It was missing documentation and tools to get things done. They couldn’t even do play throughs of the stuff they’d make because the build times was so long. It’s why the game released with so many bugs.

Well, sorry but they are wrong. Bioware is the only ones who has problems with it. Look at the other games who uses frostbite. Which one of them has this many bugs? You can argue genres but still, da3 was amazing overall. You can argue that it lacks documation, but that's the business mistake as well. Communicate with ea and make them provide what's needed.

Vanilla swtor has so much going for it. For all the problems at launch, they were minor and the core concept and quality of the game can still be felt when playing the vanilla part of the game vs the end game.

 

You are right though, the biggest thing that held the game back and is still holding it back is the engine. The pvp battle area in illum, which should have been awesome, had to basically be abandoned because the engine has trouble dealing with more than 16 players. I dare say it even has trouble with 16 people all in the same area. You only need to go do a world boss on Ossus to see what I mean.

 

As for Anthem. Part of the reason there was no love for the game was because the people working on it didn’t even understand what they were ultimately making or what the vision was. Even the people leading the team had very little idea what they would end up with. That was because Casey left the company and his vision became distorted and there was a mayor lack of leadership to take over and guid the project. (Major mismanagement till Casey came back)

There were many other issues too. But it wasn’t because the people working on it had no love. It was because they didn’t know what they were supposed to be making and they were treated terrible along the way.

There is a whole article about it called “How BioWare's Anthem Went Wrong” on Kotaku. I won’t link it because Bioware will just delete this thread or post. Just do a google search, It’s a very interesting read and gives a look behind the curtain at what happens at Bioware. I now have a completely different take on the devs of this game and feel bad if they are also treated in similar ways.

I'm a software developer, not a game developer but let's say we are making an mmo and choosing engine. What would be the first step? Stress testing. You threw 10-30-50-100-etc players in the same instance and see how engine is holding up. I don't know if you heard knight online, it's an old mmo, was really populer in my country and still is. It holds much and much and much better! That's what I don't understand, how can you make 200M team make a mistake like this essential. What did they think? Did they assume bioware magic will apply and fix the engine before the launch?

 

When anthem was at development stage, I told a friend that it would be so buggy and unfinished that he won't be able to play it. Because it's the same studio with swtor. He laughed and pre ordered the game cause its a fan boy but didn't play more than 2-3 hours cause of bugs.

Latest mass effect, anthem and swtor shows that bioware doesn't know anything about software (vanilla and ossus and many examples) testing. They either don't care or they are missing the development deadlines so less time for testing. But all of the 3 product was incomplete, and shouldn't saw the day light. If they somehow manage to fail da4, that's the endgame. Ea will and should pull the plug

[Ghost_Spectre]

Stop assuming UE4 works for MMO's. TERA used UE3 and it performs terribly to this day, struggling to handle more than 4 players in an instance.

 

It's been 7 years. This game's engine can only be improved, not changed. Move on from this narrative.

 

That's not the fault of the engine, that responsibility belongs to those coding the game. Blade & Soul is on the UE 3 and it doesn't have any issues of that magnitude, though they did limit the number of players in an instance (25 or 35) solely to reduce the downgrading of FPS for players (using Control+F removes any problems with that too). You might want to see how many games are using Unreal Engine. To make it easy for everyone, below is the list of all games using Unreal Engines, especially 3 and 4.

 

List of games using Unreal Engines

[ZionHalcyon]

You have to remember, the 'Hero engine' they are using now, was the alpha version and not the finished product. That said, if BioWare was to use a new engine, it would be the Frostbite engine. EA has ordered all games built on that. SWTOR is an aberration in that regard. BioWare's developers had to have DICE come in and help them with Anthem. BW Austin's engineers had no real experience with it. Besides, EA will not allow SWTOR to change from what it is using now unless it was to the Frostbite.

 

I was going to say exactly this.

 

However, Frostbite isn't optimized for MMOs, so who knows how this would pan out.

 

I don't see it happening.

[TrixxieTriss]

You might want to see how many games are using Unreal Engine. To make it easy for everyone, below is the list of all games using Unreal Engines, especially 3 and 4.

 

List of games using Unreal Engines

 

There are so many games using a version of Unreal engine. It took me about 5 mins to scroll to the bottom. Where as there are less than 10 games using Hero Engine and half didn’t make it to release.

 

As everyone already seems to know, Bioware used an Alpha version of Hero, so it’s only loosely still a hero engine. Information I’ve found online indicates that Heroes first stable version of the engine was 2.0.

 

The amount of tools and documentation available for Unreal developers is astronomical. The amount for Hero is limited to what they already have or what you develop yourself and Frostbite is no different in that regard.

 

Sadly, frostbite is focused around BF2 shooter and now FIFA soccer game. All their tools were developed for those and not a game like Anthem or swtor. That means the devs have to make everything they need, to do anything in frostbite and it’s why it takes so long and can be buggy because the engine often doesn’t want to do what they are trying to achieve. Bioware should never have used frostbite for Anthem, but EA forced it on them.

 

They should be using the best tools or engine designed for particular type of game development. Not an in-house one they are trying to make all genres fit.

 

I still think Bioware missed a big opportunity when deciding on Hero and it was a monumental mistake to use an alpha version because a real version of Hero is now so much better than this Bioware cobbled mess. If they’d worked closely with Hero and not gone off on their own, then hero could still be helping them. It’s same as if they’d gone with Unreal instead to start with. They wouldn’t have had to go onto an alpha version.

 

It makes you wonder if a big part of the development cost for swtor has been because Bioware essentially had to make their own engine based on the alpha version. The time and energy required to do that would have been monumental and if they haven’t documented what they did properly (which seems to be the case), then the devs that have come after them have to decipher all their jumbled mess when trying to add new features or fix old ones.

 

That’s probably a big drain on limited available resources for a game that time consuming to make.

I think 5.10.2 back end changes might be more significant in development than any of us appreciate. We are all disappointed in what seems to be lack of content with 5.10.2, but maybe we should cut them some slack if they have been making improvements to the tools and engines to allow faster and better content creation in the future. That would seem like a massive undertaking and if they e done it correctly, should allow things to come faster and with less people working on it.

[Ghost_Spectre]

Sadly, frostbite is focused around BF2 shooter and now FIFA soccer game. All their tools were developed for those and not a game like Anthem or swtor. That means the devs have to make everything they need, to do anything in frostbite and it’s why it takes so long and can be buggy because the engine often doesn’t want to do what they are trying to achieve. Bioware should never have used frostbite for Anthem, but EA forced it on them.

 

The only reason EA went the route to have all the studios using the Frostbite engine as to save on licensing fees. However, saving money on those fees cost them far more than those license fees. I know beyond a reasonable doubt that EA ultimately lost more money in the man-hours required to code into Frostbite so they could do what was required of them for Anthem. They literally had to build everything from preview windows to third-person viewing. Frostbite had no tools built in for that.

 

The single most costly revenue killer is personnel and the hours they have to work. That doesn't cover the utilities to keep the doors open while they're working or the wear and tear on equipment. Sadly, the human costs too shouldn't be forgotten either. How many quit? How many were forced to go on extended "recuperation" vacations to recover from the stressful environment they were forced to work under?

 

I would not be surprised if the man-hour costs far exceeded the cost for a 5 year license agreement with upgrades. EA gambled on increased production costs with a long-term financial outlook that would balance out and improve profits. With how things are going now...I would not be surprised if Anthem did not end up like NCsoft's Wildstar.

[TrixxieTriss]

The only reason EA went the route to have all the studios using the Frostbite engine as to save on licensing fees. However, saving money on those fees cost them far more than those license fees. I know beyond a reasonable doubt that EA ultimately lost more money in the man-hours required to code into Frostbite so they could do what was required of them for Anthem. They literally had to build everything from preview windows to third-person viewing. Frostbite had no tools built in for that.

 

The single most costly revenue killer is personnel and the hours they have to work. That doesn't cover the utilities to keep the doors open while they're working or the wear and tear on equipment. Sadly, the human costs too shouldn't be forgotten either. How many quit? How many were forced to go on extended "recuperation" vacations to recover from the stressful environment they were forced to work under?

 

I would not be surprised if the man-hour costs far exceeded the cost for a 5 year license agreement with upgrades. EA gambled on increased production costs with a long-term financial outlook that would balance out and improve profits. With how things are going now...I would not be surprised if Anthem did not end up like NCsoft's Wildstar.

 

That’s exactly how I see it too. Using the wrong thing to save money has cost them more than the saving.

[AscendingSky]

The only reason EA went the route to have all the studios using the Frostbite engine as to save on licensing fees. However, saving money on those fees cost them far more than those license fees. I know beyond a reasonable doubt that EA ultimately lost more money in the man-hours required to code into Frostbite so they could do what was required of them for Anthem. They literally had to build everything from preview windows to third-person viewing. Frostbite had no tools built in for that.

 

The single most costly revenue killer is personnel and the hours they have to work. That doesn't cover the utilities to keep the doors open while they're working or the wear and tear on equipment. Sadly, the human costs too shouldn't be forgotten either. How many quit? How many were forced to go on extended "recuperation" vacations to recover from the stressful environment they were forced to work under?

 

I would not be surprised if the man-hour costs far exceeded the cost for a 5 year license agreement with upgrades. EA gambled on increased production costs with a long-term financial outlook that would balance out and improve profits. With how things are going now...I would not be surprised if Anthem did not end up like NCsoft's Wildstar.

 

The recent article from Kotaku about the Anthem disaster backs up all the points you brought up in this post.

 

https://kotaku.com/how-biowares-anthem-went-wrong-1833731964

[TrixxieTriss]

It would seem the new Star Wars game (Jedi Fallen Order) is on Unreal Engine

 

 

Here is a link from the Community Manager.

 

Looks like EA might be listening to the devs and studio’s regarding Frostbites difficulties to fit every type of game.

Edited April 12, 2019 by TrixxieTriss

[MadDutchman]

It would seem the new Star Wars game (Jedi Fallen Order) is on Unreal Engine

 

 

Here is a link from the Community Manager.

 

Looks like EA might be listening to the devs and studio’s regarding Frostbites difficulties to fit every type of game.

 

That's good to hear, now they just need to make games that are worth playing.

[TrixxieTriss]

That's good to hear, now they just need to make games that are worth playing.

 

I vote for swtor 2 on Unreal Engine

[FlameYOL]

It would seem the new Star Wars game (Jedi Fallen Order) is on Unreal Engine

 

 

Here is a link from the Community Manager.

 

Looks like EA might be listening to the devs and studio’s regarding Frostbites difficulties to fit every type of game.

 

Well color me surprised... maybe there is hope after all.

[lord-angelus]

I vote for swtor 2 on Unreal Engine

 

Well that's a wishful thinking, I don't think they never will be swtor 2 in the near future, if they start developing today would at least take 6-7 years to release, maybe more. I hope ea took away from bioware and give the project more viable studio tough.

[TrixxieTriss]

Well that's a wishful thinking, I don't think they never will be swtor 2 in the near future, if they start developing today would at least take 6-7 years to release, maybe more. I hope ea took away from bioware and give the project more viable studio tough.

 

Could maybe be 4 years if they used Unreal Engine instead of Hero or Frostbite

[Kallie]

The engine for ESO is not Hero. The production engine is one they created in house. They used Hero for a whiteboard to get started only. I was a beta tester for ESO.

 

This is a quote from a staff member for ESO.

 

When we began development for ESO, we licensed the HeroEngine so that we could hit the ground running. We used it as a tool for things like area prototypes and design concepts so that we could begin honing the art style. HeroEngine was our whiteboard: a great tool to put our ideas in the game and seeing them while the production engine was in development.

Edited April 13, 2019 by Kallie

[lord-angelus]

Could maybe be 4 years if they used Unreal Engine instead of Hero or Frostbite

 

Which studio tough? Bioware? As far as I know bioware never worked with the ue4, so outcome could be the same. And also you should remember there is pre production state in every game and can take up to 2 years as well.

Unreal Engine 4 is not a magic tool that everything can be done with one button. Is it better documented? Yess. Is it more avaible and easy to learn? Yes, definitely. Is it better than frostbite? Case to case basics maybe, but frostbite is not a bad engine overall.

It's just bioware can not handle and work properly with it.

Edited April 13, 2019 by lord-angelus

[limenutpen]

Frostbite is as good as unreal engine 4. If not better. Anthem failure not just about using frostbite engine. I think bioware lost the talent. They've gone elsewhere. It really shows on coding, story telling and the culture. Watch Steve jobs video on product people vs sale people on the companies. It directly fits the bioware.

From business standpoints this game will never port to any other engine, its almost hard as creating the new game. Even if a miracle happens, it won't be unreal engine, will be frostbite. Well anything is better than this piece of s..t that they call engine.

I really don't understand with a budget of 200M they decided to go along with this engine. Serious lack of talent, iq, business management skills right there if you ask me

 

There was one of the BW founders who made them do it, who bought a lot of shares in Hero, and then in Jan 2012 left Bioware. He was also the guy who sold the engine to Elder Scrolls. Both of the versions SWTOR and ESO use are a heavily customized Hero, as it would be (I imagine) in any MMO of a big size. Sorry can't remember his name but he made a lot of bucks from this deal.

Edited April 13, 2019 by limenutpen

[lord-angelus]

There was one of the BW founders who made them do it, who bought a lot of shares in Hero, and then in Jan 2012 left Bioware. He was also the guy who sold the engine to Elder Scrolls. Both of the versions SWTOR and ESO use are a heavily customized Hero, as it would be (I imagine) in any MMO of a big size. Sorry can't remember his name but he made a lot of bucks from this deal.

Now all that makes sense

[lightningseven]

THIS MIGHT STILL HAPPEN

 

10th ANNIVERSARY VERY VERY SOON

[CrazyScruffy]

THIS MIGHT STILL HAPPEN

 

10th ANNIVERSARY VERY VERY SOON

 

No it won't. They straight up said no new engine for SWTOR. They hear us asking for one, but they aren't doing it