Gathering Feedback

[Karameck]

Trying without the underlying condescension toward you anyway - the point is Musco is absent as usual, started this thread with seemingly no care to reply to it (as usual), and has pawned actually saying anything about the stuff they are willing to talk about off to other people (a new tactic). What is it you do that keeps you so busy, Musco, because its not managing swtor's community.

 

Meanwhile, the issues I actually care to talk to them about are ignored because apparently Ossus is a huge success in their world of manipulated data. Frankly, ranked pvp is a huge joke and will be as long as theres a low population, their events might be nice but I'm not going to be around to go to them, and fhe gearing situation is what is going to keep me from playing their game.

 

Their refusal to talk about it, combined with the reaction to the bugged world boss quest, shows me how much BWA appreciates my loyalty. So fine, I see how it is. Why should I hang around defending Musco for getting other people to do the little bit of his job that gets done for him?

I don’t think anyone expects you to defend, or even like, the developers. You are welcome to act or respond as you see fit.Other people will do the same, but other people might not share your perception.

 

I don’t see a refusal to talk about it, and in fact think that’s founded on a faulty premise to begin with. Listening does not require responding nor is it reasonable to expect a response to everything the developers hear or plan to work on. More communication is always nice, it’s even fair game to critique the level you receive, but to pretend the absence of a response proves they aren’t actually listening is silly. That was my point.

[KendraP]

I don’t think anyone expects you to defend, or even like, the developers. You are welcome to act or respond as you see fit.Other people will do the same, but other people might not share your perception.

 

I don’t see a refusal to talk about it, and in fact think that’s founded on a faulty premise to begin with. Listening does not require responding nor is it reasonable to expect a response to everything the developers hear or plan to work on. More communication is always nice, it’s even fair game to critique the level you receive, but to pretend the absence of a response proves they aren’t actually listening is silly. That was my point.

 

Lets say you're at dinner with someone and they are pointedly staring at the wall opposite you, not replying to anything you say, or otherwise indicating they are hearing you in any way.

 

Unless someone replies to the thread, there is no way to prove they are listening either.

 

That dude at dinner might be catching every word and just being a jerk or he might be simply ignoring you. Unless he tells or indicates something, you have no way of knowing which.

[Karameck]

Lets say you're at dinner with someone and they are pointedly staring at the wall opposite you, not replying to anything you say, or otherwise indicating they are hearing you in any way.

 

Unless someone replies to the thread, there is no way to prove they are listening either.

 

That dude at dinner might be catching every word and just being a jerk or he might be simply ignoring you. Unless he tells or indicates something, you have no way of knowing which.

Or... let’s say that a professor asks for feedback at the end of a semester and then passes out forms for people to fill out and leave in a box on their way out.

 

Would you expect an individual response to your form?

 

There is a dramatic difference in what should be expected from an intimate one on one conversation and a broad request for feedback from a business. Different situations call for different responses. If someone expects direct and constant feedback to their personal concerns from a company that juggles thousands of players, I would counter that perhaps they have unreasonable expectations.

 

As someone who has dealt with customer service issues for a large company, I have a very clear idea of what I do (and don’t) expect from a business.

[kodrac]

I’ve been playing since launch as a matter of fact. Even have the “Founder” title. Is my opinion worth more now?

 

And yes, I’ve read the thread I’m responding in.

 

No need to get bristly. It's not about how much your opinion is worth, it's about whether you've been paying attention. ff you've been here that long and seen the views and feedback posted in this thread then you should be aware of the status quo. More than a few people have posted why they don't believe it this time around - because they've done this multiple times before. And the most common themes of feedback - acknowledgement, explain and follow through - has yet to be seen. They stated they intended to improve communication, which they have done some, and then asked for feedback, but they have yet to show they've taken any of it. Business as usual.

 

It's great you're glass is half full but I know better than to trust them given their history.

Edited March 14, 2019 by kodrac

[Karameck]

No need to get bristly. It's not about how much your opinion is worth, it's about whether you've been paying attention. ff you've been here that long and seen the views and feedback posted in this thread then you should be aware of the status quo. More than a few people have posted why they don't believe it this time around - because they've done this multiple times before. And the most common themes of feedback - acknowledgement, explain and follow through - has yet to be seen. They stated they intended to improve communication, which they have done some, and then asked for feedback, but they have yet to show they've taken any of it. Business as usual.

 

It's great you're glass is half full but I know better than to trust them given their history.

That wasn’t me being bristly. I’m not offended by the question, merely pointing out the problem with it. Someone’s length of time does not validate, or invalidate, their ability to weigh in on this topic or any other.

 

Here you have two of us who have both presumably been around, yet we have a dramatically different opinions.

 

Doesn’t take long in the forums to realize that many people here have a propensity to be extremely negative and myopic, a problem certainly not limited to SWTOR forums, but counterproductive nonetheless. Complaining about products or intiatives that haven’t even had a chance to get off the ground is often a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[kodrac]

That wasn’t me being bristly. I’m not offended by the question, merely pointing out the problem with it. Someone’s length of time does not validate, or invalidate, their ability to weigh in on this topic or any other.

 

That's not the point of asking it. The point is to see if you understand where we're coming from. They've done this before. It's like you're new here or haven't paid attention. Hence the question.

 

Doesn’t take long in the forums to realize that many people here have a propensity to be extremely negative and myopic, a problem certainly not limited to SWTOR forums, but counterproductive nonetheless. Complaining about products or intiatives that haven’t even had a chance to get off the ground is often a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

Precedent. They've done this before. It doesn't take long on the forums to realize people feel like they're not being listened to. That's not being myopic. To not see it is willfully obtuse, or you're olag and being contradictory for contradiction's sake. They've been given feedback and haven't acted on it. Just like other things before. In this particular case, no acknowledgement, no explanations, no follow through. How long does it take to do those things? Not that long. They've had ample time to gather feedback and acknowledge it (as was the feedback given which theoretically was the purpose of making this thread), but they haven't. Just like the precedent they set years ago. As other people have already pointed out, fool me once....

Edited March 14, 2019 by kodrac

[KendraP]

Or... let’s say that a professor asks for feedback at the end of a semester and then passes out forms for people to fill out and leave in a box on their way out.

 

Would you expect an individual response to your form?

 

There is a dramatic difference in what should be expected from an intimate one on one conversation and a broad request for feedback from a business. Different situations call for different responses. If someone expects direct and constant feedback to their personal concerns from a company that juggles thousands of players, I would counter that perhaps they have unreasonable expectations.

 

As someone who has dealt with customer service issues for a large company, I have a very clear idea of what I do (and don’t) expect from a business.

 

In the case of professor feedback there is no avenue for them to reply to you. The avenue here is obvious.

 

Also, call me jaded, but what does a tenured professor care what his feedback says? He's probably safe anyway. Musco comes requesting feedback, mentioning conversations, etc, and has given exactly zero indication he actually gives a crap.

 

We are both free to our own assumptions of course, but just like a professor that doesn't change based on end of term feedback, my assumption is Musco doesn't give a crap.

[Karameck]

In the case of professor feedback there is no avenue for them to reply to you. The avenue here is obvious.

I have never had a class where the professor did not have the means to reply or contact me. Honestly no clue what makes you say that.

 

Also, call me jaded, but what does a tenured professor care what his feedback says? He's probably safe anyway. Musco comes requesting feedback, mentioning conversations, etc, and has given exactly zero indication he actually gives a crap.

 

We are both free to our own assumptions of course, but just like a professor that doesn't change based on end of term feedback, my assumption is Musco doesn't give a crap.

Completely besides the point, but very few professors are tenured, and someone who works for a privately owned company is definetly not receiving any special job protections. The point of the analogy was to show the disparity between large scale interactions and intimate ones, not to get into the nuance of university politics. It’s an analogy, not a direct comparison. It would be like me trying to critique your analogy by claiming lack of eye contact at dinner could be due to the other person being autistic. Picking apart the details of an analogy misses the point,

 

You’re welcome to your assumption, I was just clarifying that it was only that. People often like to act as if they know the hearts and minds of BW employees around here.

[Rion_Starkiller]

Can we all just agree that the sky is blue?

[Karameck]

That's not the point of asking it. The point is to see if you understand where we're coming from. They've done this before. It's like you're new here or haven't paid attention. Hence the question.

That’s what you may have intended by the question, but I was highlighting how the question doesn’t actually serve that purpose. You should address my statements, not attempt to decide if they have merit based on me as a person.

 

And it’s like you have this misguided view that if I don’t share your perception it must be due to inexperience or inattentiveness. Maybe I just disagree, with no additional caveats needed.

 

Precedent. They've done this before. It doesn't take long on the forums to realize people feel like they're not being listened to. That's not being myopic. To not see it is willfully obtuse, or you're olag and being contradictory for contradiction's sake. They've been given feedback and haven't acted on it. Just like other things before. In this particular case, no acknowledgement, no explanations, no follow through. How long does it take to do those things? Not that long. They've had ample time to gather feedback and acknowledge it (as was the feedback given which theoretically was the purpose of making this thread), but they haven't. Just like the precedent they set years ago. As other people have already pointed out, fool me once....

I’m sure you know exactly what they do and how long it takes to accomplish a given task with the spaghetti code they work on.

 

I’m not big on listening to armchair developers tell me how long something should take, or what resources are required. I’ve seen them act within the bounds of what I expect from them as a business. Otherwise I would simply unsubscribe, as I would advise anyone else who feels they aren’t meeting their obligations to do. Your message will get a lot farther voting with your wallet than speculating you know all the behind the scenes going ons.

Edited March 14, 2019 by Karameck

[ceryxp]

Can we all just agree that the sky is blue?

 

It's actually not.

[Rion_Starkiller]

It's actually not.

 

Can we all just agree that the sky appears to be blue on a cloudless day?

Edited March 14, 2019 by Rion_Starkiller

[Karameck]

Can we all just agree that the sky appears to be blue on a cloudless day?

But if we both agree... who’s right? >:C

[KendraP]

I have never had a class where the professor did not have the means to reply or contact me. Honestly no clue what makes you say that.

The feedback is asked for after the final exam, strictly as a means for them to improve. It was never intended to be a two way discussion.

 

This forum is obviously an avenue for two way discussion and musco had mentioned as much himself. This is further indicated by the fact that they will discuss things... that they choose to talk about, implying that stuff they ignore is simply stuff they won't talk about.

 

Completely besides the point, but very few professors are tenured, and someone who works for a privately owned company is definetly not receiving any special job protections. The point of the analogy was to show the disparity between large scale interactions and intimate ones, not to get into the nuance of university politics. It’s an analogy, not a direct comparison. It would be like me trying to critique your analogy by claiming lack of eye contact at dinner could be due to the other person being autistic. Picking apart the details of an analogy misses the point,

 

You’re welcome to your assumption, I was just clarifying that it was only that. People often like to act as if they know the hearts and minds of BW employees around here.

 

My point in the end was, we all assume what we will. No one here is convincing anyone else otherwise. And part of that is due to their refusal to reply to topics they seemingly don't wish to discuss. Were they more open with discussion, maybe the rumor mongering would be lessened.

 

And them not having special protections was kind of the point. I would think being more willing to talk to customers would make for more loyal customers, a healthier population, and thus, more job security for them.

[Karameck]

The feedback is asked for after the final exam, strictly as a means for them to improve. It was never intended to be a two way discussion.

What a bizarre assumption to make about my analogy. But again, it’s a moot point regardless, there is nothing to be gained from imposing arbitrary restriction on an analogy.

 

This forum is obviously an avenue for two way discussion and musco had mentioned as much himself. This is further indicated by the fact that they will discuss things... that they choose to talk about, implying that stuff they ignore is simply stuff they won't talk about.

It doesn’t imply that to me. I can imagine a great deal of reasons why I may not want to use a public forum as the stage to discuss every topic I intend to address.

 

My point in the end was, we all assume what we will. No one here is convincing anyone else otherwise. And part of that is due to their refusal to reply to topics they seemingly don't wish to discuss. Were they more open with discussion, maybe the rumor mongering would be lessened.

 

And them not having special protections was kind of the point. I would think being more willing to talk to customers would make for more loyal customers, a healthier population, and thus, more job security for them.

That’s pessimistic. We may not convince each other, but there are a great many people who don’t directly respond but still read the forum posts. By making cogent pionts anyone of us could have an influence on their perception. It’s much easier to convince people who aren’t currently engaged in advocating or defending a point.

 

My posts are made for the benefit of those people, and the enhancement of my own understanding by refining my opinions.

 

I think people underestimate the degree to which the community also has a major impact on the playbase experience, being doom and gloom all the time pushes new users away and doesn’t help the old ones. My “optimism” is pragmatic.

[RudeDog]

f someone expects direct and constant feedback to their personal concerns from a company that juggles thousands of players, I would counter that perhaps they have unreasonable expectations.

 

As someone who has dealt with customer service issues for a large company, I have a very clear idea of what I do (and don’t) expect from a business.

 

City of Heroes had community managers that engaged with the Community. They actually listened and reacted to the feedback. Shocking, I know!

[Karameck]

City of Heroes had community managers that engaged with the Community. They actually listened and reacted to the feedback. Shocking, I know!

1) You’ll never see me arguing that BW (or more accurately EA) is the best company, or that there isn’t room for improvement

 

2) Without knowing the resources or comparable staffing levels that doesn’t tell me much

[ceryxp]

Can we all just agree that the sky appears to be blue on a cloudless day?

 

What time of day and what altitude?

[kodrac]

I’m not big on listening to armchair developers tell me how long something should take, or what resources are required. I’ve seen them act within the bounds of what I expect from them as a business. Otherwise I would simply unsubscribe, as I would advise anyone else who feels they aren’t meeting their obligations to do. Your message will get a lot farther voting with your wallet than speculating you know all the behind the scenes going ons.

 

I didn't say anything about development or code. I've not once said anything about knowing anything that goes on behind the scenes. You assert too much bias into my words. I'll reiterate since you've willfully ignored it the last three times. The feedback in this thread is acknowledgement, explain and follow up. They haven't done any of that. I know you're part of the Forum Apologist Five, but you can do better than that.

Edited March 14, 2019 by kodrac

[Keta]

I really dislike defending BW or their employees as they're quite capable of defending themselves on these forums if need be, but in this case they are responding on the forums --- just not in this thread.

[aerockyul]

I really dislike defending BW or their employees as they're quite capable of defending themselves on these forums if need be, but in this case they are responding on the forums --- just not in this thread.

 

As was pointed out long ago in either this thread or the other one that started all of this--we keep falling into the same traps of derailing/devaluing the threads with stuff that they probably don't care to sift through anymore when there are more productive threads going on elsewhere (ranked pvp, guild stuff, some Charles Boyd drop-ins, new gold voices popping up, some actual acknowledgement of bugs).

 

You're all free to pick apart my response for 4 and a half pages nitpicking words in this post--don't expect them to do anything but at the cries of "lack of feedback" in the midst of it.

Edited March 14, 2019 by aerockyul

[Karameck]

I didn't say anything about development or code. I've not once said anything about knowing anything that goes on behind the scenes. You assert too much bias into my words.

What you did say was this:

They've been given feedback and haven't acted on it. Just like other things before. In this particular case, no acknowledgement, no explanations, no follow through. How long does it take to do those things? Not that long.

So you don't claim to know the goings on, just you know, what they should be doing, and how long it should take...

 

As far as the coding, I never said you mentioned it, I was responding to the above statement. Which suggestion did they fail to implement that "doesn't take that long"? What is their policy for responding to posts and are they potentially responding sparingly on purpose to avoid the perception they are only reading the posts they directly respond to (like they do in the suggestion forum)? Also they literally did respond in this thread, twice.

 

I'll reiterate since you've willfully ignored it the last three times. The feedback in this thread is acknowledgement, explain and follow up. They haven't done any of that.

Except they have. They don't have to acknowledge things in this thread, to acknowledge them (although again, they have responded in this thread).

 

One of the responses in this thread specifically let people know to look for increased posts across the forums, including from Mr.Steed.... which has happened in the last few weeks on a variety of topics. Again, if you don't think it's good enough there are ways to communicate that which don't require projecting malice onto mundane/typical business practices or claiming they aren't doing things that they are.

 

I know you're part of the Forum Apologist Five, but you can do better than that.

Oh I have a title now? Who are my comrades-in-arms? We can maniacally continue to not hate everything together, truly despicable.

[kodrac]

What you did say was this:

So you don't claim to know the goings on, just you know, what they should be doing, and how long it should take...

 

They've had ample time and 25 pages of feedback. i don't need to be an expert, or know their internal policies, nor do I need to know when Musco takes his lunch break. Don't insert your bias into what I have said.

Edited March 14, 2019 by kodrac

[Karameck]

They've had ample time and 25 pages of feedback. i don't need to be an expert, nor do I need to know when Musco takes his lunch break. Don't insert your bias into what I have said.

I didn't, I took a very literal reading of your words which was made clear by the rest of the post you ignored.

[KendraP]

They've had ample time and 25 pages of feedback. i don't need to be an expert, nor do I need to know when Musco takes his lunch break. Don't insert your bias into what I have said.

 

I mean, we're all inserting bias into things here. I admit I'm biased.

 

However, I do feel this thread was pure damage control and lip service.

 

And PS- Musco I still refuse to do anything related to Ossus. You might count my inflated number loving friends among your artificial statiatics, but I am not participating in gear grinds for no reason.