Crafted gear and pvp

[IanArgent]

If I can do all SM content in this game naked, casuals really don't need T5 gear. You absolutely don't even need current top-bis gear to do hard-mode content. I'd like to hear what casuals need BIS gear for, if they're not doing anything that requires it.

 

If you can do top-end content without BiS gear, and story mode stuff naked, your skill levels are a good deal higher than the average casual. People (including me, sometimes) really underestimate the skill level, and more importantly, the skill level cap, of the mass of players of this game. These are people who cannot complete TEC solo, who may not be able to complete HSF solo. They don't come to the forums, they don't read Dulfy, because they don't know either resource exists. They mill around and pay their repair bills from dealing with the trash mobs in story zones.

 

And their $15 a month is the same value to BW:A as yours is, and there are more of them than there are of you. There's enough of you for BW:A to not want to totally annoy you, but they are an important part of the subsriber base.

[Kiesu]

If you can do top-end content without BiS gear, and story mode stuff naked, your skill levels are a good deal higher than the average casual. People (including me, sometimes) really underestimate the skill level, and more importantly, the skill level cap, of the mass of players of this game. These are people who cannot complete TEC solo, who may not be able to complete HSF solo. They don't come to the forums, they don't read Dulfy, because they don't know either resource exists. They mill around and pay their repair bills from dealing with the trash mobs in story zones.

 

And their $15 a month is the same value to BW:A as yours is, and there are more of them than there are of you. There's enough of you for BW:A to not want to totally annoy you, but they are an important part of the subsriber base.

Sure. I'm not disagreeing that their buck is just as valuable as mine. I still haven't gotten a reason why they'd absolutely need T5 gear rough. They're not exactly going to join a raiding guild like that any time soon.

[TUXs]

If I can do all SM content in this game naked, casuals really don't need T5 gear. You absolutely don't even need current top-bis gear to do hard-mode content. I'd like to hear what casuals need BIS gear for, if they're not doing anything that requires it.

The game may not require it, but people will...and many people will need it to perform better than they currently do, enabling them to do more things in game. Casuals will eventually need it to be accepted as equals...this is how it always works out. Players like you won't, but I doubt you need anything beyond 230 gear now to be a competent player...you're not the 'norm'.

[IanArgent]

Sure. I'm not disagreeing that their buck is just as valuable as mine. I still haven't gotten a reason why they'd absolutely need T5 gear rough. They're not exactly going to join a raiding guild like that any time soon.

 

My position is they need the 6-piece set bonus (because of the way almost any set bonus interacts with powers), but that once they have it, the stat increases from higher-tier mods is not so necessary. Back in 4.x I would rather have had the PvP gear for the set bonus than the statistically-superior-outside-of-WZ crystal, crafted, or rewarded gear. And I still keep that gear until I can replace it with set-bonus command rank gear on the characters than have it. (Well, the armorings, anyway)

[TUXs]

Sure. I'm not disagreeing that their buck is just as valuable as mine. I still haven't gotten a reason why they'd absolutely need T5 gear rough. They're not exactly going to join a raiding guild like that any time soon.

A great player will pull great numbers, no matter what crap gear they're in. An average player will perform in line with their gear - better gear = better numbers. Below average players will need the better gear just to get to your 230 level of numbers. It's not that they'll "need" it to keep doing the same crap they're currently doing, it's that better gear allows more players to do more content. Better numbers in healing, DPS or damage mitigation, help the average player participate in more stuff.

[kodrac]

I won't say she didn't need it, but I wonder if her time would have been better spent improving companion performance.

 

Agreed, but casuals/story only peeps don't all partake in all facets of the game. They may not have all class companion stories needed for the presence boost, which would require playing all 8 classes. They may not have finished chpt 3 on a human character for the extra presence or bother collecting presence (or any) datacrons (for stat boosts). Needing better gear to compensate for not doing those things isn't necessarily doing it wrong.

 

I accumulated all those things by exploring the different facets of the game and by wanting to play all the classes and see all the companion storylines so I got loads of presence over time. I can do the complete Iokath story and flashpoints without even tier 1 gear (230) while this person claims she needed tier 3 (242). Only two of my many toons have gone beyond t1. But I wouldn't call myself a casual after all the hours and years doing those things either.

 

So while it may not be the way you or I do it, I can't begrudge them thinking they need it. Gear has always been the skill "equalizer".

Edited September 6, 2018 by kodrac

[IanArgent]

The game may not require it, but people will...and many people will need it to perform better than they currently do, enabling them to do more things in game. Casuals will eventually need it to be accepted as equals...this is how it always works out. Players like you won't, but I doubt you need anything beyond 230 gear now to be a competent player...you're not the 'norm'.

 

Let's not confuse "want" with "need" - even casuals "want" Big Numbers. And it will help them. It will not help them as much as the same time and effort spent increasing presence and influence will. For that matter, the "mandatory" sections of the game aren't tuned to it. (All story missions, all "solo mode" FPs from SoR onwards.)

 

I'm really frankly surprised someone's "can pass" threshold for Iokath was "Tier 3 gear" because marginal character stat increased are the least useful thing against large groups of enemies. Other than L2P (the single best thing I did to increase my own skill level for non-group content was grind Aurora Cannon and those large-member, high-rating pulls; taught me a BUNCH of things about targeting order, interrupts, and use of stuns and threat and companion management), which I never tell someone who needs help - it's rude and counterproductive, cranking your companion's HPS increases your survival time, which increases your damage output over time, which decreased your DtPS as the encounter goes on, and it's a virtuous circle; one that isn't capped by the diminishing returns on stat increases.

Edited September 6, 2018 by IanArgent

[Kiesu]

The game may not require it, but people will...and many people will need it to perform better than they currently do, enabling them to do more things in game. Casuals will eventually need it to be accepted as equals...this is how it always works out. Players like you won't, but I doubt you need anything beyond 230 gear now to be a competent player...you're not the 'norm'.

There is bad players in every game imaginable. And we cant expect them to be able to do every content imaginable. Gear won't help them achieve that goal. If SM is still a struggle for them in current MM gear, going one tear higher will not relieve that struggle.

 

If they have the money to spend on top tear gear, by all means they're free to chase the epics. I still don't see how this is an absolute need for anyone. If the current MM raiders don't need BIS gear even now, are you really saying the T5 gear was actually made for bads because they're so bad this is the only way they'll survive the game? Now that is just mean.

[kodrac]

marginal character stat increased are the least useful thing against large groups of enemies. Other than L2P [sNIP]

 

Also agreed. L2P (I hate using that term but it works) is critical in the skill to gear ratio.

[TUXs]

There is bad players in every game imaginable. And we cant expect them to be able to do every content imaginable. Gear won't help them achieve that goal. If SM is still a struggle for them in current MM gear, going one tear higher will not relieve that struggle.

 

If they have the money to spend on top tear gear, by all means they're free to chase the epics. I still don't see how this is an absolute need for anyone. If the current MM raiders don't need BIS gear even now, are you really saying the T5 gear was actually made for bads because they're so bad this is the only way they'll survive the game? Now that is just mean.

I get what you're saying, Ian and Kodrac are also correct - better gear doesn't beat being a better player...but better gear does open up more content for the majority of the players. Our user base isn't exactly increasing...

[IanArgent]

I get what you're saying, Ian and Kodrac are also correct - better gear doesn't beat being a better player...but better gear does open up more content for the majority of the players. Our user base isn't exactly increasing...

 

The raising of the gear cap certainly contributes to the perception that Stats Are What You Need, when character stats are perhaps the least important thing in the game for contributing to player performance. The entire gear-treadmill paradigm is so deeply rooted in the core game design that I don't think you can make it entirely unimportant, but it shouldn't be important for "mandatory content" which includes repeatables that are recycled from storyline content (as the Iokath dailies are).

 

I still find it hard to wrap my mind around someone who couldn't clear the content prior to T3 gear, who was able to clear the content with Tier 3 geaar, and wonder if all other things remained the same. Though that disbeliefe only applies to theactuality, not their perception. If it was the stat boost that made them confident enough to do it, who am I to argue? And of course, the grind to GET to T3 gear is going to season them and perhaps provide other increases along the way.

[IanArgent]

Also agreed. L2P (I hate using that term but it works) is critical in the skill to gear ratio.

 

I wish there was some better signage for the optional "skill ramp" content. HSF and TEC are about as visible as I expect they can be, but Section X is still partially occluded (better than it used to be), and I sort of think that HSF has too much of a gap between the non-Heroic SF and the Heroic Mode (not to mention inappropriate reuse of the Heroic modifier), and TEC ramps difficulty awfully fast - there are 3 major "plateaus" rather than a smooth curve in difficulty. OTOH, difficulty curves are the hardest thing in game design, IMO.

[TUXs]

The raising of the gear cap certainly contributes to the perception that Stats Are What You Need, when character stats are perhaps the least important thing in the game for contributing to player performance. The entire gear-treadmill paradigm is so deeply rooted in the core game design that I don't think you can make it entirely unimportant, but it shouldn't be important for "mandatory content" which includes repeatables that are recycled from storyline content (as the Iokath dailies are).

 

I still find it hard to wrap my mind around someone who couldn't clear the content prior to T3 gear, who was able to clear the content with Tier 3 geaar, and wonder if all other things remained the same. Though that disbeliefe only applies to theactuality, not their perception. If it was the stat boost that made them confident enough to do it, who am I to argue? And of course, the grind to GET to T3 gear is going to season them and perhaps provide other increases along the way.

I have to wonder how many groups you guys put together that think stats are so meaningless? I regularly organize guild raids with a vast array of people of all different skill levels. I don't cherry pick the best players, this isn't progression runs...I just try to keep players doing crap. It's not about egos, it's only about having fun. I take people who have never run Ops before, I allow players to bring whatever class/character they want, as long as we have the basics covered. First time healing? Join us. We usually have enough awesome players that a few new ones are meaningless, but that's not always the case...few groups that I coordinate have the makings of HM/NiM teams, some do of course, but that's not the goal of the content I run...my goal is to keep players doing crap...new, vet, returning player, solo player, whoever...I try to get them involved in crap.

 

Anyone claiming that stats are unimportant, is simply wrong. Better stats allow better players to carry more people, and they allow worse players to do better by default. They allow an average player the chance to attempt HM Ops. They allow a good healer to solo heal a team. They allow a single solid DPS to carry 3 average or below average DPSers.

 

Stats may not mean anything for you great players and your progression teams, but for me, a guy who simply organizes crap for players to do, they sure as hell do matter. They have ALWAYS mattered.

Edited September 6, 2018 by TUXs

[StormForceDax]

I didn't see the LIvestream but this is what Dulfy's recap says:

 

"Tier 5 Gear. All Tier 5 gear will be crafted, no detail to reveal yet. We know you got strong opinions about it. Expect to be part of the rewards for master mode operations. "

 

Yep, PvP'ers get shafted.

 

As do solo/pvp players. The world does not evolve around PvP.

It will depend on if you can sell tier 5 crafting gear on GNT. Don't see why one group of players get rewarded above other groups for doing what is there preferred play style..

Edited September 6, 2018 by StormForceDax

[IanArgent]

I have to wonder how many groups you guys put together that think stats are so meaningless? I regularly organize guild raids with a vast array of people of all different skill levels. I don't cherry pick the best players, this isn't progression runs...I just try to keep players doing crap. It's not about egos, it's only about having fun. I take people who have never run Ops before, I allow players to bring whatever class/character they want, as long as we have the basics covered. First time healing? Join us. We usually have enough awesome players that a few new ones are meaningless, but that's not always the case...few groups that I coordinate have the makings of HM/NiM teams, some do of course, but that's not the goal of the content I run...my goal is to keep players doing crap...new, vet, returning player, solo player, whoever...I try to get them involved in crap.

 

Anyone claiming that stats are unimportant, is simply wrong. Better stats allow better players to carry more people, and they allow worse players to do better by default. They allow an average player the chance to attempt HM Ops. They allow a good healer to solo heal a team. They allow a single solid DPS to carry 3 average or below average DPSers.

 

Stats may not mean anything for you great players and your progression teams, but for me, a guy who simply organizes crap for players to do, they sure as hell do matter. They have ALWAYS mattered.

 

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that stats are unnecessary. I meant to give the impression that stats above T1 set-gear are the last thing I would improve to handle solo content outside of TEC or vet+ chapters. Stats are basically a multiplier to skill, the better your skill, the more benefit you get from stats. Least important is not unimportant.

 

I specifically did not comment on group content, which is an ENTIRELY different ball of wax. In any of the group content areas (and, I guess I have to admit, in some of the solo-mode FPs) there is a "you must be this well-geared" stand next to the door, and the better geared you are, the better you can help out the rest of your group. I'm no progression raider; right now I'm running flashpoints with below-level-cap guildies and friends, on a T2-ish geared tank, and I'm quite sure my gear is a measurable factor in the overall success of the endeavors; because it multiplies my familiarity with my character, my role, and the FPs themselves. More margin of error for the healer, more DPS I contribute, etc.

 

The topic is specifically about PvP, where I think there's too wide a gap between bolster and top end gear anyway - I don't disagree that there should be some gear advancement, but I also think the primary differentiator should be skill, not gear, and that gear should only matter for "all other things being equal."

[Rion_Starkiller]

No offense, but if you *only* pvp, then you are a filthy casual at this game -- and you probably have very little in-game wealth. The same goes for anyone that only plays one aspect of the game (looking at you Mr Space-Missions-Only guy). Edited September 6, 2018 by Rion_Starkiller

[IanArgent]

You didn't used to have to play outside of PvP to gear PvP quickly, first PVP comms, and then UCs.

 

I expect that PvP will provide the mats needed for PvP gears, to be sold or traded for completed gear. Otherwise this represents a big paradigm shift in gearing for PvP, and I, for one, think that would be a bad idea. OTOH, maybe BW doesn't want "only PvP" players. Also a mistake in my estimation - it takes all kinds.

[TUXs]

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that stats are unnecessary. I meant to give the impression that stats above T1 set-gear are the last thing I would improve to handle solo content outside of TEC or vet+ chapters. Stats are basically a multiplier to skill, the better your skill, the more benefit you get from stats. Least important is not unimportant.

 

I specifically did not comment on group content, which is an ENTIRELY different ball of wax. In any of the group content areas (and, I guess I have to admit, in some of the solo-mode FPs) there is a "you must be this well-geared" stand next to the door, and the better geared you are, the better you can help out the rest of your group. I'm no progression raider; right now I'm running flashpoints with below-level-cap guildies and friends, on a T2-ish geared tank, and I'm quite sure my gear is a measurable factor in the overall success of the endeavors; because it multiplies my familiarity with my character, my role, and the FPs themselves. More margin of error for the healer, more DPS I contribute, etc.

 

The topic is specifically about PvP, where I think there's too wide a gap between bolster and top end gear anyway - I don't disagree that there should be some gear advancement, but I also think the primary differentiator should be skill, not gear, and that gear should only matter for "all other things being equal."

I didn't mean to direct that post at you Ian

 

For PvP, you're right...242 vs 248 gear will be meaningless >99.999% of the time...no average PvPer will do well against a skilled player, no matter what gear he has on. Hell, I've been PvPing since beta and there are players who freaking smoke me, I swear they aren't playing with the same skills that I am, it's not about their gear vs. mine, it's all about their experience and knowledge that I simply can't compete with. BTW...as agitating as it is to encounter people that much better than me, it's also the reason I love PvP...I want to get to their level...they drive me to do better.

[IanArgent]

I didn't mean to direct that post at you Ian

 

For PvP, you're right...242 vs 248 gear will be meaningless >99.999% of the time...no average PvPer will do well against a skilled player, no matter what gear he has on. Hell, I've been PvPing since beta and there are players who freaking smoke me, I swear they aren't playing with the same skills that I am, it's not about their gear vs. mine, it's all about their experience and knowledge that I simply can't compete with. BTW...as agitating as it is to encounter people that much better than me, it's also the reason I love PvP...I want to get to their level...they drive me to do better.

 

No problem - I was angry at myself for not being precise; and because I did make a mistake in explaining myself. Glad you gave me a reason to correct myself.

[omaan]

Sure. I'm not disagreeing that their buck is just as valuable as mine. I still haven't gotten a reason why they'd absolutely need T5 gear rough. They're not exactly going to join a raiding guild like that any time soon.

 

I wont fight in lower tier gear against higher tier gear players in sr and tr. I want skill to decide, not gear. If both teams have skilled players, the team with highest tier gear will win which is sad and stupid. Devs must rethink the source of new mats and recipes. Pvp players arent pve runners

Edited September 6, 2018 by omaan

[Rion_Starkiller]

I wont fight in lower tier gear against higher tier gear players in sr and tr. I want skill to decide, not gear. If both teams have skilled players, the team with highest tier gear will win which is sad and stupid. Devs must rethink the source of new mats and recipes. Pvp players arent pve runners

 

Lofty goals. Where does lag and RNG fit in?

[TrixxieTriss]

Even casuals will "need" it...everyone "needs" top tier gear. It's expected after a certain amount of time and it provides a boost that people, especially casual players, typically need.

 

I disagree Tux. The current content difficulty isn’t being increased and it can already be cleared by most people in 230-236 gear. 242 gear is probably too high for it and 248 is overkill.

 

The only people who will need the tier gear will be HM/MM ops guys and Pvpers. Even pvpers wouldn’t need it if the tier 5 gear is reduced to 248. The only reason we do need it is because some people will have the funds to buy tier 5 gear and it will create an even bigger gear gap than now.

 

Unless Bioware increase the pve difficulty in the story mode or flash points. 248 is more than enough to clear content.

[TrixxieTriss]

Well i always wanted to try guild wars 2. Thx devs for opportunity

 

GW2 is good. But then pvp for a new player is a brutal learning curves. Much harder than swtor because you get boosted straight to lvl 80.

There is no lowbie pvp. You get thrown in with the best pvpers straight away and you’ll have no idea how many of the weapons abilities or builds work.

Their idea of utilities is insane and much bigger to work out. There also aren’t any cookie cutter builds because your abilities change depending on a heap of things.

If you are happy to play pve to lvl up to 80 and learn the classes properly, then pvp is really fun. Less bugs, no gear gaps and more dynamic. But much harder.

I’m only still here because I love Star Wars, but I do go back to GW2 to play occasionally.

 

If you want to try a true space MMO/Sim, kind of a cross between the old Star Wars Xwing series crossed with EVE, there is a game called Elite Dangerous.

I’ve only just come across it and I’m really impressed. It’s been around for awhile, but the Devs have been constant adding things and making it what the players actually want. 2018 saw a lot of new changes for the game.

I watch a few reviews and some describe it as having Star Wars space battle feeling (just without the force).

(this review doesn’t really have much fighting, but it does describe the features pretty well)

https://www.elitedangerous.com/en/

FYI, 400 billion star systems.

Edited September 7, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[DWho]

I disagree Tux. The current content difficulty isn’t being increased and it can already be cleared by most people in 230-236 gear. 242 gear is probably too high for it and 248 is overkill.

 

The only people who will need the tier gear will be HM/MM ops guys and Pvpers. Even pvpers wouldn’t need it if the tier 5 gear is reduced to 248. The only reason we do need it is because some people will have the funds to buy tier 5 gear and it will create an even bigger gear gap than now.

 

Unless Bioware increase the pve difficulty in the story mode or flash points. 248 is more than enough to clear content.

 

How about turning the question around. What reason is there to deny players top tier gear?

 

Top tier gear does have an impact on all PVE. The better your gear the faster you can clear the content. Grinding is all about benefit per unit time

[TrixxieTriss]

How about turning the question around. What reason is there to deny players top tier gear?

 

Top tier gear does have an impact on all PVE. The better your gear the faster you can clear the content. Grinding is all about benefit per unit time

 

Absolutely no real reason except to seperate the elite from the casual players. I’m just trying to point out that regular casual players have no need for it with the current difficulty lvl. It’s already approached face roll difficulty.

 

I’ve nothing against casuals having the same gear. I think it’s dumb to gate gear behind content just to make people play it. If the game was good enough, it would lure enough people to play all aspects of it and they would not need to use a carrot and stick approach to get people to play those parts of it.

 

I’ve had this other thought rattling around in my brain since this was announced. I keep coming back to a podcast Kieth did months ago where he said he would like more credit sinks in the game.

 

This way of gearing could certainly be seen as a credit sink because he would have to know how much this stuff will sell for on the GTN.

But there is one fundamental flaw if that’s his intention. What about the (edited due to spell check mistake) gold sellers? All this is likely to do is increase their activity and therefore negate the credit sink. You would also end up with these uber rich players sitting on most of the game’s wealth.

 

The other thing I keep coming back to is the CM. Is this to get people to buy more stuff and list it in the GTN to make credit to then buy the crafted armor? If so, then it really is their idea of pay to win.

Edited September 7, 2018 by TrixxieTriss