SWTOR finally going P2W

[robertthebard]

Kill the option for the gear to be craftable.

 

I've got a better idea, make it bound to legacy, and make everyone have to have grind it out.

[mhobin]

You seem to be forgetting one thing, some of us can craft the gear, which will cost us no credits, since we actually have a guild that was built upon helping one another so how is that pay to win?

 

The MM ops team in your guild will be setting the price for everyone else on the server. If they are only making stuff for guildies it will drive the price up. How many MM ops teams are on each server, 20? Maybe?

 

My guess is that gear will be very expensive as the schematics will be locked to very few people. Because you are in a guild with a MM ops team it will lower the price for you, and it will raise the price for everyone else.

[mhobin]

I've got a better idea, make it bound to legacy, and make everyone have to have grind it out.

 

You mean like UC in the system now?

[robertthebard]

Here is a response to each of your bullet points

 

1. A system with everything earned through play is the only fair system. Especially in a sub based game.

 

2. Built up wealth to this point of the game has been for cosmetic uses only. Many players have had no real need for credits. They have a few outfits they like, and spend their time on the fleet between PvP and raids. Credits have never been a priority, as they have no real effect on the active playing parts of the game. This system changes that.

 

3. You can have top level crafted gear or direct CM sales on the GTN. Having both puts a P2W mechanic in endgame.

 

4. What is faster way to 100m credits? Setting up several different crafting toon, gathering the mats and selling the crafted items on the GTN. Or buying two hypercrates and selling them on the GTN. One will take months, the other minutes.

 

You need to stop looking at this from a how I play the game view, and look at the system as a whole for the game.

 

1. Everything can be earned only through play. The items that are being sold, specifically referring to Tier 5 gear, can only be crafted by playing the game. The schematics and mats are, as of now, only available through gameplay. If they wind up on the GTN, it's only because someone got it through gameplay and listed it.

 

2. Current augments say hello.

 

3. Nope, see 1.

 

4. While one can take minutes, it can also take much longer. The same set of Revan's Gloves was listed on the GTN for 3 months, by the same seller. I didn't look at hypercrates because I don't buy lootboxes, at all. On the other hand, selling the crafted items on the GTN can also happen "in minutes", or take months.

 

I'd expect some of the PvP community to believe this is P2W. They don't want to PvE, and since doing PvE will enable crafters to get the mats together faster, and those PvP players may have to dip into their credits to get it, they're going to be crying foul. The "no risk, middling reward" system that is PvP doesn't pay out a lot of credits, since PvP doesn't, to now, require them. After this, however, they're either going to have to expand their game time, or pay for it on the GTN, suddenly a system that's been in game since it became a thing, selling CM items on the GTN, is P2W. Ironically, I'll bet it takes a while before the bulk of this gear even appears on the GTN with anything like easy availability, since crafters are going to have to build their stuff, and if they work for a guild too, their stuff before they can start selling anything with anything like a profit in mind.

 

That's the inherent flaw with the P2W argument: As of what we know right now, the materials and schematics are only available in game, which means that, given the RNG nature of getting these kinds of drops in game, it's going to take a while for them to start showing up. It's going to require that all the mats be dropped/collected too, and if it's similar to what we have now, then the base mats can be gathered either on the planet where the gear starts, or through crew missions, neither of which are P2W. How you get your credits, and I bar RMT only because it's against the rules, and if you're caught, you're banned, is irrelevant. Some people have been building them up for years, and running content that pays well to do it. Others have done so through playing the GTN, and others have done a mix of the two. Still others, such as myself, simply haven't cared about BiS items for so long that we don't even care about what the next tier looks like, I haven't needed it to play what I'm playing now, and so, I don't see needing it going forward, unless I decide to get back into Ops, which I don't see happening.

[robertthebard]

You mean like UC in the system now?

 

Similar to, sure. Only make the gear bound. No selling, which means that anyone that's not crafting is going to have learn it, if they want the gear. If they're unhappy with that, we can look and see if they've posted "but this is P2W", and congratulate them on their "victory" while they spend all the time required to max out all the crafting disciplines to get their gear. Some of them may have to actually PvE to get enough comps, the horror...

[Joonbeams]

Unless they make the schematics tradable it is more likely then not that you will not be crafting this gear. As of now they have just said the schematics will drop from MM operations. That means the supply will be very low. Prices will be very high. “Crafters” will not be crafting the gear. Progression raiders will be crafting the gear.

 

The gear you make now has no real effect on PvP or progression raiding. Without set bonuses it is worse then entry level gear from drops/vendors. People in those two communities have never used crafted gear before as a primary gear source. So my argument that credits have been for cosmetics is true. The only thing that was bought by credits for stats were augments. Which are still a P2W mechanic but a smaller one.

 

Well, if you want to abandon the hypothetical you've been pushing then fine. Cuz if the gear is any of: BoP/BoL, not totally BiS (e.g. no set bonuses), or otw obtainable only by doing end game content, then there is no issue right? FWIW (since we're just guessing anyway), I think it's most likely that the schematics are BoL/BoP, and that the gear will be too. I've said a few times, for the sake of argument, I've accepted the hypothetical that it's not this way. It starts with the devs blog:

 

Crafted Tier 5 Gear – make your own top tier gear after obtaining rare schematics and new crafting materials

 

I believe emphasis on "your own" is key here. Also the gear can't be crafted until after obtaining the "rare schematics" (suggesting that the schematics won't be sellable on the GTN). We've had this BoP mechanic in the game in the past too. In other words, it's doubtful this gear will be sellable on the GTN at all.

 

But even if it is, and even if it's only the end-gamers who are selling it, it still remains true that you can earn the gear through doing just game content. And it's still true that the prices will settle out at what the market determines is value. For example, I won't spend on them if they exceed my pricing threshold AND if I'm not doing content that requires this gear (which is most players). Thus, if priced too highly, the demand will likely be only from players who are doing highest-end content. Fortunately, these players will also be able to get the schems/mats themselves doing the content they already like to do, if they don't have the means to buy them otw.

 

Again, taking all this into account, when you look at the issue you have you're still really having is that we allow people to buy/sell CM items on the GTN. That's really the inescapable issue with your argument. If installing a mechanism that allows crafted gear to become viable again (and obtainable entirely though in-game mechanics) is pitted against the idea of removing CM items from the GTN, the former should always win...

[robertthebard]

Well, if you want to abandon the hypothetical you've been pushing then fine. Cuz if the gear is any of: BoP/BoL, not totally BiS (e.g. no set bonuses), or otw obtainable only by doing end game content, then there is no issue right? FWIW (since we're just guessing anyway), I think it's most likely that the schematics are BoL/BoP, and that the gear will be too. I've said a few times, for the sake of argument, I've accepted the hypothetical that it's not this way. It starts with the devs blog:

 

Crafted Tier 5 Gear – make your own top tier gear after obtaining rare schematics and new crafting materials

 

I believe emphasis on "your own" is key here. Also the gear can't be crafted until after obtaining the "rare schematics" (suggesting that the schematics won't be sellable on the GTN). We've had this BoP mechanic in the game in the past too. In other words, it's doubtful this gear will be sellable on the GTN at all.

 

But even if it is, and even if it's only the end-gamers who are selling it, it still remains true that you can earn the gear through doing just game content. And it's still true that the prices will settle out at what the market determines is value. For example, I won't spend on them if they exceed my pricing threshold AND if I'm not doing content that requires this gear (which is most players). Thus, if priced too highly, the demand will likely be only from players who are doing highest-end content. Fortunately, these players will also be able to get the schems/mats themselves doing the content they already like to do, if they don't have the means to buy them otw.

 

Again, taking all this into account, when you look at the issue you have you're still really having is that we allow people to buy/sell CM items on the GTN. That's really the inescapable issue with your argument. If installing a mechanism that allows crafted gear to become viable again (and obtainable entirely though in-game mechanics) is pitted against the idea of removing CM items from the GTN, the former should always win...

 

I believe the schematics will be BoL. The point about "only progression raiders will be making gear" made by the poster you quoted is a fallacy, since progression raider =/= crafter. I have toons that have run progression raiding that can't craft anything at all. They can, however, gather for the toons I have that are crafters.

 

In so far as whether the gear will be sellable or not, I'm not sure, but making it BtL will be a simple "out" here. It will also enrage a good number of players that only know BioChem, which will, I'd imagine, be quite amusing to watch. Like I said in a previous post, however, it'll be fun to see if some of the complainers about having to learn to craft were posting about how P2W this system was, so we can congratulate them on their "victory".

[TrixxieTriss]

LMAO... you mean the small handful of other players in this thread who keep insisting this is P2W ... black and white (binary is a better term) on their opinion as well?

 

In contrast to dozens of players all echoing the generally accepted definition of the term ----> P2W = item can ONLY be acquired by direct purchase from the studio for real money, and item is neither tradable, nor obtainable in game??

 

 

 

I wish......

 

As long as the OP and a couple of other forum members keep doubling down and insisting it is P2W, while ignoring and even ridiculing every other viewpoint in the thread.. this simply cannot happen. So how about you start by trying to get the OP to demonstrate some reason here.

 

You mean like you have

while ignoring and even ridiculing every other viewpoint in the thread.

 

You’ll notice I haven’t ridiculed anyone in this thread. But your “LMAO” at my suggestion as to what I consider the situation to be and making sure you highlight it is ridiculing me.

 

Your point of view as to what makes it P2W isn’t the only one, it also doesn’t mean you are right and I am wrong. My definition is obviously different to yours and that’s fine. But you are acting exactly the same way as you are accusing others.

 

What you have said and the way you have said it in your above post is demonstrating the behaviour you are so against. You can not have it both ways where it is ok for you to post like that, but others can’t. That’s called hypocrisy.

 

Why don’t you just accept the fact that your definition of what is P2W is different to others and leave it at that instead of attacking other people and telling them their opinion is wrong.

Edited September 11, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[Andryah]

I've got a better idea, make it bound to legacy, and make everyone have to have grind it out.

 

That will really piss off a lot of the PvPers if they do that, since the studio has made it pretty clear the makings for this new tier will come from OPs... though I guess they could change their mind... and a lot of PvPers appear to turn their nose up at any activity that even remotely touches anything PvE... so no crafting for them in many cases.

 

But it does have the merit of shooting the P2W meme into dust. Never fear... the folks peddling P2W here will just turn to their next conflated complaint/excuse.

 

I tend to think that recipes will be BoL as that has been the trend for some time now. Materials are likely just rare drops.. and that could include rare drops from GC crates as well....so unlike some MMOs.... they will be part of the free market trade economy.

 

As for gear.. I guess the studio could go either way.... BoL or BoE. The trend though has been to make the recipe BoL and the gear BoE. We will just have to wait and see.

 

Meanwhile the pitchforks and torches crowd keeps disrupting the town square with their imaginary stories about boogey men.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Andryah

[Joonbeams]

That will really piss off a lot of the PvPers if they do that, since the studio has made it pretty clear the makings for this new tier will come from OPs... though I guess they could change their mind... and a lot of PvPers appear to turn their nose up at any activity that even remotely touches anything PvE... so no crafting for them in many cases.

 

I'll just ignore (once again) the PvP ad hominems (as a PvPer who crafts) . But where did you get the info that the mats/schems would drop only from Ops? I haven't seen that, but admittedly I've been spotty keeping up. I will say, that would be an odd change of course for a studio that's been very clearly trying to promote both end-game PvE and PvP. But stranger things have happened here...

[PennyAnn]

Let's just move away from the term "pay2win" and think about people skipping the grinding process and directly purchasing (potentially) BiS gear from the GTN. Has BiS gear EVER been sold on the GTN? What are the ramifications? Is this a good thing?

 

Yes, BiS gear was once upon a time available on the GTN. When you could reverse engineer pieces of gear (hilts, barrels, etc) and craft those from a BiS weapon you could then sell them directly on the GTN. It didn't break the game then, it won't break the game now.

 

Crafted gear has NEVER in the history of the game had set bonuses on it. Nowhere did anyone from Bioware say that this crafted gear would have set bonuses, nor did they ever describe it as BiS. You assume new tier = BiS before you even know a single thing about any of this.

 

You are all overreacting based on zero information about this new system. It's kinda ridiculous, tbh.

 

Edited to add: Just because they said that you will be able to aquire the schematics for this in Master Mode operations does not mean that's the only place it will come from. You all have ZERO DETAILS and are freaking out over something they haven't even described or explained... at all.

 

Edited again to finally add: in fact, this thread is so over the top that I'm done even reading it. Good luck, y'all!

 

.

Edited September 11, 2018 by PennyAnn

[IanArgent]

Let's just move away from the term "pay2win" and think about people skipping the grinding process and directly purchasing (potentially) BiS gear from the GTN. Has BiS gear EVER been sold on the GTN? What are the ramifications? Is this a good thing?

 

Depends on the slot, but BiS augments (and, in fact, the augment slot itself) are only available via crafting, and are bought and sold via the GTN...

 

Basic economics - if the price on these new Tier 5 items is high, that's going to encourage more people to grind out the mats to build them. Putting more mats into the system, driving down the prices.

 

OTOH, the studio doesn't appear to understand several basic principles of MMO economies, as demonstrated when they broke the pre-4.x economy by introducing larger credit fountains and reducing the number and volume of credit sinks...

[robertthebard]

You mean like you have

 

 

You’ll notice I haven’t ridiculed anyone in this thread. But your “LMAO” at my suggestion as to what I consider the situation to be and making sure you highlight it is ridiculing me.

 

Your point of view as to what makes it P2W isn’t the only one, it also doesn’t mean you are right and I am wrong. My definition is obviously different to yours and that’s fine. But you are acting exactly the same way as you are accusing others.

 

What you have said and the way you have said it in your above post is demonstrating the behaviour you are so against. You can not have it both ways where it is ok for you to post like that, but others can’t. That’s called hypocrisy.

 

Why don’t you just accept the fact that your definition of what is P2W is different to others and leave it at that instead of attacking other people and telling them their opinion is wrong.

 

The problem with this is that there is a "right" and "wrong" definition of P2W, and buying gear with ingame currency isn't the "right" one. Perhaps you need to step out of your comfort zone into games that actually have P2W mechanics. Perhaps you need to see that there are games where, if you're not heavily investing in their CSs, you will never have BiS gear, because the BiS gear binds, and therefore can't be shared around the community.

 

The definition of P2W isn't dependent on "I'm too lazy to grind credits the old fashioned way, so I'll just get my wallet out to buy hypercrates to sell" either. Especially when it's used to buy gear that can only be obtained by actually playing the game, which is the exact opposite of P2W. Instead of railing away about it on the forums, if I were interested in the least bit in BiS gear, I'd be busy running planetary dailies/heroics, with the added bonus of doing so through GC, so I could advance that even further, or just get more crates, as the case may be. There's a secondary bonus there as well: The GC mission to do the missions actually pays credits too. If half the people complaining "but P2W" had spent 2/3 of the time doing those, instead of complaining here, they'd be well on their way to having the credits built up by the time the gear drops. Pick a couple of planets, and run those while you wait for those really long queue times we keep hearing about in PvP. It'll give you something to do besides hang out on fleet complaining about that, and it's not like your gear won't support it any more, right?

[kodrac]

You are all overreacting based on zero information about this new system. It's kinda ridiculous, tbh.

 

Preach, sister!

[TUXs]

TUXs, take a look at my response a couple posts earlier (I also have a longer version earlier that got ignored) for my responses generally. But for now, the reason this argument fits in the P2W broad definition is only because we have a studio that allows selling/purchasing CM items on the GTN. That means players can get these cosmetic items entirely through in-game currency. This is "pro-player" and should be encouraged. Many other games don't have this.

 

The only way to "fix" the issue raised by the OP is to kill the resell/purchase option on the GTN or kill the option to acquire this gear through crafting. NEITHER of these are good options...

Great point Joonbeams.

The biggest problem I have with your argument is that you're taking the very player-friendly aspect of the CM -- the part that allows players to resell/purchase any CM item using only in-game currency on the GTN -- and using that player-friendly tool to argue that some players may use this to shorten their time-to-gear. By implication, the "fix" you would suggest would make it so that players couldn't actually use the GTN to resell/purchase CM items -- a horrible outcome for a number of reasons. Please think this through.

 

Yes, we know there are definitions of P2W that one could apply here -- I've conceded that before. But this player-friendly (based on what we know now) system doesn't get anywhere close to being a troubling P2W because: a) for many players (vets like me) it will be less time/financially viable than using already-stacked in-game currency, b) the "grind" here isn't burdensome/prohibitive - new players can be up and running w/ crafting skills and abundant credits in a couple of days, and c) players can attain what's necessary through purely in-game methods that can be achieved by just playing the parts of the game they like (i.e. not "grinding" at all) and earning mats/schems just by playing. These characteristics are really far afield from what P2W pejoratively refers to...

And a very good post.

 

I agree entirely...this is a good thing indeed, but...I can also see how this would still fit a vague definition of P2W in that a player need not play the game in any form to get BiS (and tier 5 will absolutely be BiS...to pretend it might not is silly) gear. I don't think that's a bad thing myself, but I can see the issue with it...but thankfully, it's player crafted, not CM purchased gear. In time, players will be giving new players a free set just to run content with them.

[Andryah]

Yes, BiS gear was once upon a time available on the GTN. When you could reverse engineer pieces of gear (hilts, barrels, etc) and craft those from a BiS weapon you could then sell them directly on the GTN. It didn't break the game then, it won't break the game now.

 

Crafted gear has NEVER in the history of the game had set bonuses on it. Nowhere did anyone from Bioware say that this crafted gear would have set bonuses, nor did they ever describe it as BiS. You assume new tier = BiS before you even know a single thing about any of this.

 

You are all overreacting based on zero information about this new system. It's kinda ridiculous, tbh.

 

Edited to add: Just because they said that you will be able to aquire the schematics for this in Master Mode operations does not mean that's the only place it will come from. You all have ZERO DETAILS and are freaking out over something they haven't even described or explained... at all.

 

Edited again to finally add: in fact, this thread is so over the top that I'm done even reading it. Good luck, y'all!

 

.

 

/Endorsed.

 

Really... /thread in my view... but I know that will not be the case.

[Andryah]

I'll just ignore (once again) the PvP ad hominems (as a PvPer who crafts) . But where did you get the info that the mats/schems would drop only from Ops? I haven't seen that, but admittedly I've been spotty keeping up. I will say, that would be an odd change of course for a studio that's been very clearly trying to promote both end-game PvE and PvP. But stranger things have happened here...

 

You are reading in to my statement something that I did not say. My statements were in no way ad hominem... simply taking some vocal PvPers at their word (and no.. not all PvPers... that is always the problem here.. you make statement and people try to run it to the moon claiming you stole their cat or insulted their dog).

 

I understand some PvPers do craft... and I also understand that some PvPers do not craft (particularly the ones who "only PvP"), will not craft, and will complain about anything they perceive as gated by crafting. It is the non-crafters that are the vocal outcry that attracts attention in the forum... so maybe take this discussion up with them.

 

As I stated.. what has been teased out so far (which is extremely limited to be sure) their comments are centered around OPs as both sourcing and motivation (not mandate, just motivation).

Tier 5 Gear. All Tier 5 gear will be crafted, no detail to reveal yet. We know you got strong opinions about it. Expect to be part of the rewards for master mode operations.

I ALSO stated that they could change their minds before they go live too. But regardless of where materials drop, all prior precedent suggests they will be tradable. Recipes on the other hand... all prior precedent suggests these will be BoL and drop from OPs encounters, and perhaps as a random drop chance from GC crates. They could change this too and make them tradable.. but recent precedent points against that choice.

 

Which brings us back to my endorsement of PennyAnns post.... this thread is 95% speculation, hyperbole, and angst... driven by the OP and a few other players declaring this new gear = P2W. These same people will not listen to other peoples viewpoints, claim they are somehow a majority view that this = P2W (even though thread posts here clearly contradict that biased view), and will not think about precedent and trends from this studio over the years in the context of crafted gear. So in the absence of any common reasoning.... the discussion just continues to go in circles. If PvPers actually want to have a meaningful discussion that might influence the studio.. this P2W hyperbole is not it. If anything it just makes the studio roll their eyes and move on. They would do much better in my view to try to present a compelling case for making gear effectively non-relevant in PvP (be it through raising bolster, or removing gear as a factor entirely and normalizing all players stats in PvP).

 

I'm all for meaningful discussion, even strong debate back and forth. as long as both sides in a discussion are willing to hear each other out and if needed.. just agree to disagree. But this launching a discussion with nothing more then selective use of a term that is not consistent with how the majority of MMO players interpret the meaning of the term is senseless and gives the studio an easy out here to by dismissing the clear nonsense and doing what they choose to do. So I encourage players, particularly avid PvPers who are not into any PvE aspects of the game to have a positive and contributory discussion on approaches that might largely or completely mitigate any need for this gear at all in PvP, while not tearing down the interests of PvEers in the process ---> ie: normalized stats and/or removal of gear from the PvP equation.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Andryah

[Khevar]

Crafted gear has NEVER in the history of the game had set bonuses on it. Nowhere did anyone from Bioware say that this crafted gear would have set bonuses, nor did they ever describe it as BiS. You assume new tier = BiS before you even know a single thing about any of this.

That's a fair point, but remember that moddable gear gives 30 individual "gear upgrade" opportunities.

 

One could upgrade 24 of these, leaving 6 set-bonus armoring slots in place. Unless of course, the Tier 5 gear is not moddable.

 

It's not a stretch to imagine that Tier 5 gear would be an improvement, stat wise, over Tier 4. Otherwise, why introduce it at all?

 

I'd like to echo some other posters in saying that having PvP bolstered to whatever the max tier is seems the best solution. Unlike PvE, *the other players" are the actual content in PvP. There is no need for an artificial gear grind to extend playtime for PvP.

[Andryah]

That's a fair point, but remember that moddable gear gives 30 individual "gear upgrade" opportunities.

 

One could upgrade 24 of these, leaving 6 set-bonus armoring slots in place. Unless of course, the Tier 5 gear is not moddable.

 

It's not a stretch to imagine that Tier 5 gear would be an improvement, stat wise, over Tier 4. Otherwise, why introduce it at all?

 

I'd like to echo some other posters in saying that having PvP bolstered to whatever the max tier is seems the best solution. Unlike PvE, *the other players" are the actual content in PvP. There is no need for an artificial gear grind to extend playtime for PvP.

 

I agree with everything you stated, and emphatically so on the PvP part, with one exception.... I don't think any one is saying the gear will not provide some stat improvements... but rather it is unclear (and precedent from the more recent mid life bump of augments to the new 240s) that there will be any real meaningful boost in stats that is anywhere near alignment with the cost in resources and effort to actually obtain them. This reads much more like a "distraction grind" since 6.0 appears to be some distance away still. Especially when they admit up front that they will not be adding any new OP content that would actually require the gear to clear it. It's reads busy work, and will prey on the more OCD tendencies of some players.

 

By the way... welcome back.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Andryah

[ceryxp]

Instead of railing away about it on the forums, if I were interested in the least bit in BiS gear, I'd be busy running planetary dailies/heroics, with the added bonus of doing so through GC, so I could advance that even further, or just get more crates, as the case may be. There's a secondary bonus there as well: The GC mission to do the missions actually pays credits too. If half the people complaining "but P2W" had spent 2/3 of the time doing those, instead of complaining here, they'd be well on their way to having the credits built up by the time the gear drops.

 

^^ This. Over the last few days, 4'ish, I've amassed just over 6 million credits just from running planetary heroics to collect alliance crates and doing Gree dailies on a single character. Who knew actually playing the game could be so lucrative?

[Khevar]

By the way... welcome back.

 

Agreed on the distraction grind -- that's what it reads like to me.

 

Taking a scan at the numbers in the "optimal stats thread" it appears that the total stat pool goes up by about 6% for each major tier (e.g. Tier 3 Legendary to Tier 4 Legendary), but about 3% for a minor (e.g. Tier 3 Legendary to Tier 4 Artifact).

 

I suppose if:

 

1. The new Tier 5 only includes artifact (not legendary)

2. Doesn't have a set bonus

3. Doesn't include a new tier of augments

 

It possible that the total stat budget increase would be closer to 2%. One could probably upgrade the hilt/barrel/offhand armoring simply for the base increase in tech/force power and call it a day.

[Rion_Starkiller]

Yes, BiS gear was once upon a time available on the GTN. When you could reverse engineer pieces of gear (hilts, barrels, etc) and craft those from a BiS weapon you could then sell them directly on the GTN. It didn't break the game then, it won't break the game now.

 

Crafted gear has NEVER in the history of the game had set bonuses on it. Nowhere did anyone from Bioware say that this crafted gear would have set bonuses, nor did they ever describe it as BiS. You assume new tier = BiS before you even know a single thing about any of this.

That's a fair point, but remember that moddable gear gives 30 individual "gear upgrade" opportunities.

 

One could upgrade 24 of these, leaving 6 set-bonus armoring slots in place. Unless of course, the Tier 5 gear is not moddable.

 

It's not a stretch to imagine that Tier 5 gear would be an improvement, stat wise, over Tier 4. Otherwise, why introduce it at all?

 

I'd like to echo some other posters in saying that having PvP bolstered to whatever the max tier is seems the best solution. Unlike PvE, *the other players" are the actual content in PvP. There is no need for an artificial gear grind to extend playtime for PvP.

 

My memory is extremely hazy from those days as I was still into flashpoints and SP PvE

But weren't the set bonuses attached to the shells? and were craftable but required valor rank for pvp?

 

 

Personally, I think it's important that we rehash all this old stuff because the devs seem to be willing to try "new" things to extend the maintenance mode of this game -- and veteran players need to help make sure old problems aren't reintroduced.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Rion_Starkiller

[Haruen]

I fail to see how this is P2W? It's P2SG (Pay to skip grind).

 

You can't buy the new gear directly from Bioware, no matter how much you give them, which is P2W imo...all you can do is buy it from other players who've earned it by doing the things necessary IN GAME to earn it...this isn't P2W at all...you're literally buying it from other players.

 

Quoted for truth. This is not P2W. Go get a job or grind for in game coin FFS.

[PennyAnn]

That's a fair point, but remember that moddable gear gives 30 individual "gear upgrade" opportunities.

 

One could upgrade 24 of these, leaving 6 set-bonus armoring slots in place. Unless of course, the Tier 5 gear is not moddable.

 

It's not a stretch to imagine that Tier 5 gear would be an improvement, stat wise, over Tier 4. Otherwise, why introduce it at all?

 

I'd like to echo some other posters in saying that having PvP bolstered to whatever the max tier is seems the best solution. Unlike PvE, *the other players" are the actual content in PvP. There is no need for an artificial gear grind to extend playtime for PvP.

 

In response to one of the most sensible posts in this thread, YES! I agree. Make bolster in PvP nullify gear. Problem solved. Before anyone claps back at me, I realize this was not his suggestion, but it is not this suggestion alone that makes his response sensible. Whoever/all who have been suggesting this change to PvP gearing should be focused on this suggestion, and drop all this "Pay to Win" stuff, because it just isn't really accurate and the bolster is a much stronger argument that is likely to be considered.

 

And yes, it will certainly be gear "parts" that we craft in Tier 5, not the gear shells itself. There will also likely be - as there always has been - some "static" pieces that are slightly better than current non-BiS but that will also be... non BiS. The thing is, will it have set bonuses for the very first time in the game as craftable? If so, then I think more discussion about where these items (schematics and materials) are available to make sure you aren't shoehorning people into one sector of game play. Again, a MUCH BETTER discussion point to argue from than trying to make this about "Pay to Win", which I agree just likely makes the developers roll their eyes like the rest of us. You can't buy the schematics, materials, or gear itself from the Cartel Market. It's not P2W.

 

I just think that until we know that, there is no use in getting full up on outrage and posting indignant outcry over something we know nothing about. But then again... I suppose that's what 99% of the internet (not just these forums) is about, so I'm begging for civility and rationality where I am least likely to get it.

 

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Edited September 11, 2018 by PennyAnn

[mhobin]

In response to one of the most sensible posts in this thread, YES! I agree. Make bolster in PvP nullify gear. Problem solved. Before anyone claps back at me, I realize this was not his suggestion, but it is not this suggestion alone that makes his response sensible. Whoever/all who have been suggesting this change to PvP gearing should be focused on this suggestion, and drop all this "Pay to Win" stuff, because it just isn't really accurate and the bolster is a much stronger argument that is likely to be considered.

 

And yes, it will certainly be gear "parts" that we craft in Tier 5, not the gear shells itself. There will also likely be - as there always has been - some "static" pieces that are slightly better than current non-BiS but that will also be... non BiS. The thing is, will it have set bonuses for the very first time in the game as craftable? If so, then I think more discussion about where these items (schematics and materials) are available to make sure you aren't shoehorning people into one sector of game play. Again, a MUCH BETTER discussion point to argue from than trying to make this about "Pay to Win", which I agree just likely makes the developers roll their eyes like the rest of us. You can't buy the schematics, materials, or gear itself from the Cartel Market. It's not P2W.

 

I just think that until we know that, there is no use in getting full up on outrage and posting indignant outcry over something we know nothing about. But then again... I suppose that's what 99% of the internet (not just these forums) is about, so I'm begging for civility and rationality where I am least likely to get it.

 

.

 

Bolster at 252 is a great idea. I think most of the PvP community has been arguing for it for years.

 

This discussion has been predicated on the differing opinion on the meaning of P2W. You and I disagree. You contend that because it is not directly purchasable it is not P2W. I say that because there Is a viable method to purchase BiS gear for RL money it is a P2W mechanism.

 

I think it is a pretty safe assumption that Tier 5 will have set bonuses. They would not announce a new tier of gear for MM raiders that would not be desirable for MM raiders.

 

I don’t think this thread has been full of indignant outcry, it has been pretty civil. Both sides have made valid arguments. Just because not everyone agrees, or does not think BW/EA is always in the right does not mean that the conversation has been outrageous or out of line.