Win Traders in Season 9 and Beyond

[EnzoForMe]

Eric,

 

Overall well done on cleaning up the leaderboards. I think you got some of the right ones, still are missing a few, and a couple I’m surprised at that are probably incorrect. I’m hoping you’re open to reversing the decision for a couple players that seem to have been caught in friendly fire.

 

However, I think you’re setting the right tone ahead of season 10. Players have egregiously abused the system in s-9, primarily through backfill and queue denial. I’m hoping s-10 will shape up to be a competitive and minimal exploit season, and the shorter duration of the season / cross faction should dissuade non-rule breaking shnaningans like dodging and sync Qing.

 

If you want to get top 3, you should be getting it by playing with and against the best both in solo queue and group ranked. I think the changes are a positive step in that direction.

[Floplag]

This thread is the perfect example of why i havent bothered with rated PvP since season 4. They announce action, to address win traders, and people go off complaining about stuff that wasnt addressed in the release. Seriously what part of "Win Traders" in the title wasnt understood?

 

Its a step guys, at least they are looking at PvP and its integrity. They cant address everything, noone can. But at least getting the most obvious nonsense handled is a step in the right direction.

 

Were getting attention, dont blow it by being clowns and bellyaching about everything they arent doing, for once, please.

 

Make an effort to build the community instead of farming it and we might save this game yet. Its literally up to you.

[LordTurin]

This is great Eric.

 

Could we get some kind of feedback about reports submitted? Even just a percentage of reports submitted that correspond to actual cheating would probably be good information for us to have, so that we can see why a lot of times it seems you guys ignore reports.

 

Also, the raw numbers of actions that you guys take would also be good. Like how many suspensions, perma bans, etc. That would probably go a long way towards scaring people away from cheating if they knew how often they would get caught and punished.

[YoshiMikami]

So I have a couple questions regarding the system.

 

1) If someone is innocent and was banned/had their toons removed from the leaderboards and make an appeal, could their rating be reverted? ( I know of at least 1 person who is innocent who received a ban)

 

2) Do the metrics used to determine win traders also look for other conditions such as exploiting backfilling, etc.?

 

I, for one, am happy that actions are finally being taken against win traders. I stopped doing ranked several seasons ago due to the large number of win traders on my server. It was extremely disappointing working to get a rating and having someone cheat and receive the same rewards. Hopefully, with this step forward (and the additional improvements to the metrics used) we can have a fair ranked environment.

[olagatonjedi]

I highly doubt that happens often. They can't just ignore something if there are loads of reports, yes data helps, but what if the data doesn't show what player reports can show.

It does happen, in nearly every pvp game ever made. People let emotion get the best of them, especially in defeat. And especially if it happens repeatedly. Most people are unwilling to accept they arent as good as their opponent, and conjure ways to justify it, accurate or not.

[Ghost_Spectre]

Starting with the end of Season 9, we now have a zero-tolerance policy on win trading.

 

-eric

 

I simply find it sad and telling that this is still going on and that it is going on period. It is obvious to me at least, those who do this cannot do so on their own merit and skill and have to cheat to appear good and get the goodies. Cheating is akin to stealing. Thieves and cheaters never win, ultimately karma seeks them out and they pay dearly for their nefarious deeds as we are seeing now. If one has to cheat, they might want to focus on improving their skill and play. However, I find that many won't even attempt this because it is not in the nature of current crop of players to take the time to do so. Sad, just sad.

[MandFlurry]

Hey folks,

 

 

Congrats to everyone who participated in Ranked PVP Season 9! It was a hard fought Season and we look forward to seeing you around the fleet with your weapons, mounts, and flairs. One thing that unfortunately comes up during and after a Season is about players who cheat, and in particular, win trade. These are players who manipulate Ranked matchmaking to play with and against specific players in an effort coordinate winning and losing, allowing them to boost a specific characters ratings. This behavior is against our Terms of Service and is something that players have to endure and we have to combat every season. With Season 9 gone and 10 in process, we wanted to provide a status update on win trading in The Old Republic.

 

Starting with the end of Season 9, we now have a zero-tolerance policy on win trading.

 

This action has already happened with players who were caught win trading during S9. For these players, including their first offense:

 

• Suspension time, up to seven days.
  
• Every character on their account will have their Group and Solo rating set to one.
  
• Depending on severity further action can occur, such as zeroing out Ranked Currency or permanent account closure.
  

 

In addition to the above bullets we are going to be making some systemic changes to assist in curbing this behavior. In a future game update any character that uses a character transfer will have its Ranked rating reset. We have also continued to make improvements behind the scenes in how we use analytics to track down and action win traders.

 

I do want to take this time to say thank you to the vast majority of you who continue to play legitimately. Also, to all of you who continue to report cheaters to myself, Keith, and customer support. Please keep letting us know as you spot bad behavior in PvP. Together we can keep Ranked PvP a place where players can compete in a fair environment.

 

Thanks everyone.

 

-eric

 

 

At first i thought Eric was talking about Window trading lol. I guess i'm a little off heheh:o

[ALaggyGrunt]

At first i thought Eric was talking about Window trading lol. I guess i'm a little off heheh:o

 

WTS used 3x double-paned glass 4ft x 4ft window. Window may or may not be 30 years old.

[TrixxieTriss]

WTS used 3x double-paned glass 4ft x 4ft window. Window may or may not be 30 years old.

 

How transparent

[DarthCasus]

This thread is the perfect example of why i havent bothered with rated PvP since season 4. They announce action, to address win traders, and people go off complaining about stuff that wasnt addressed in the release. Seriously what part of "Win Traders" in the title wasnt understood?

 

Its a step guys, at least they are looking at PvP and its integrity. They cant address everything, noone can. But at least getting the most obvious nonsense handled is a step in the right direction.

 

Were getting attention, dont blow it by being clowns and bellyaching about everything they arent doing, for once, please.

 

Make an effort to build the community instead of farming it and we might save this game yet. Its literally up to you.

 

Right? I'm thinking people would be a bit more positive or optimistic that they're at least trying to curtail the rampant win-trading. I know it's 'late' but even trying through steps is much appreciated.

[TrixxieTriss]

I would still like to know if any measures are being taken against actual hackers in the game, wether they are ranked or regs.

Wintrading is only one form of cheating in the game and I’m looking for, as I’m sure others are, some sort of official statement to say ALL cheating, including regs will now be harshly dealt with.

Edited August 8, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[Talon_strikes]

Sad to see a few innocents that never participated in the wintrading get targeted while there are still plenty of actual hackers and backfillers on the solo ranked leaderboards for S9. Already heard from a friend that he is getting copy/paste responses from the ToS team, basically the runaround.

[olagatonjedi]

Sad to see a few innocents that never participated in the wintrading get targeted while there are still plenty of actual hackers and backfillers on the solo ranked leaderboards for S9. Already heard from a friend that he is getting copy/paste responses from the ToS team, basically the runaround.

You have data to show they are innocent?

[TUXs]

It does happen, in nearly every pvp game ever made. People let emotion get the best of them, especially in defeat. And especially if it happens repeatedly. Most people are unwilling to accept they arent as good as their opponent, and conjure ways to justify it, accurate or not.

Very true. I've been humbled enough to know I'm far from the best PvPer...and I also know, from other games, the really really good PvPers, do get reported and accused of hacking when they aren't. I've had some very good friends get banned because the number of reports against them simply didn't warrant the amount of time CS was spending on following up on the reports they'd receive. They eventually got the bans overturned, but they had to prove their innocence.

 

Reports should trigger a flag, but they can't be used to state with certainty that someone is cheating. Win trading is a lot more difficult to prove than hacking though...

[TUXs]

You have data to show they are innocent?

I'm curious...what would you expect him to show exactly? What data do you expect him to produce?

 

I imagine Bioware can look at the actual combat logs to determine if a player simply used a default attack or whatever to "look" like they were playing, but when you match that against the other teams combat logs, I have to assume Bioware can make a pretty good determination as to what actually happened in the fight. Add into that the amount of matches players played, wins vs losses and where they came, what their alts did, and things like that, I have to think Bioware knows the players who look very suspicious.

[Joonbeams]

You have data to show they are innocent?

 

I really had to check my eyes a few times on this, but in a shocking twist I actually agree with OJ here:eek:. That is, if the point is - "devs have 'data' and we do not," then I think this is a very fair argument.

 

I'll add in that I agree with this with the following caveats/assumptions:

• Devs have far more intricate metrics than we know of to investigate these things
  
• The best cheaters, in anything, are very good at covering their tracks making proving guilt very difficult. These folks won't be greedy. They won't do it every single time. They will toss out some "fakes" just to throw the hounds off the scent of the trail.
  

 

In nearly any screen/filter, you always have to make the choice between: a) calibrating to catch everyone (sensitive) but accepting that some innocents (false positives) will be rolled up and b) calibrating to eliminate false positives (specific) but accepting that some guilty will walk. It is nearly impossible in most filters to achieve both - you have to pick.

 

For these measures, the "sensitive" approach (option "a") is clearly best. I could make the arguments as to why that is, but I'll just leave it there for now...

[olagatonjedi]

I really had to check my eyes a few times on this, but in a shocking twist I actually agree with OJ here:eek:. That is, if the point is - "devs have 'data' and we do not," then I think this is a very fair argument.

 

I'll add in that I agree with this with the following caveats/assumptions:

• Devs have far more intricate metrics than we know of to investigate these things
  
• The best cheaters, in anything, are very good at covering their tracks making proving guilt very difficult. These folks won't be greedy. They won't do it every single time. They will toss out some "fakes" just to throw the hounds off the scent of the trail.
  

 

In nearly any screen/filter, you always have to make the choice between: a) calibrating to catch everyone (sensitive) but accepting that some innocents (false positives) will be rolled up and b) calibrating to eliminate false positives (specific) but accepting that some guilty will walk. It is nearly impossible in most filters to achieve both - you have to pick.

 

For these measures, the "sensitive" approach (option "a") is clearly best. I could make the arguments as to why that is, but I'll just leave it there for now...

I wont find fault with you for agreeing with me.

[MandFlurry]

Very true. I've been humbled enough to know I'm far from the best PvPer...and I also know, from other games, the really really good PvPers, do get reported and accused of hacking when they aren't. I've had some very good friends get banned because the number of reports against them simply didn't warrant the amount of time CS was spending on following up on the reports they'd receive. They eventually got the bans overturned, but they had to prove their innocence.

 

Reports should trigger a flag, but they can't be used to state with certainty that someone is cheating. Win trading is a lot more difficult to prove than hacking though...

 

THIS^^^

 

There are a lot of times, when people, even myself wounder how some people can just 3 hit me and be dead, or whatever. But, i hope that Bioware has a hell of a good program to prove who is guilty, and who is not. Sometimes some people may cheat, sometimes some people get very butt hurt when they lose and can't take the fact that they lost and file a wrongful report.

 

Hopefully, we have good programming in place, but programs are not always fool proof all the time either way.

[Khaleg]

Just a hint, you guys are not allowed to post character names here. The posts will be deleted and you get a warning or even a temporary(forum) ban. Edited August 13, 2018 by Khaleg

[TrixxieTriss]

Just a hint, you guys are not allowed to post character names here. The posts will be deleted and you get a warning or even a temporary ban.

 

This ^^

[omaan]

I wonder how people from tulak hord and leviathan are getting top places in solo ranked in current season...i played on those servers and can confirm that sr and tr are dead there. Makes me wonder if those players just wintrading or asking their friends to queue whith them in solo ranked and make a view/simulation of the fight when the guy who asked others to queue and tries to get elo wins of course...so while people on DM,ss and sf are fighting against skilled players without being able to queue with/against their friends (which is fair) players on dead servers are just gathering a few friends and winning all matches with easy mode.

 

How you going to fight this, devs? Maybe it's time to merge servers or give top 3 titles based on server?

Edited August 14, 2018 by omaan

[merovejec]

I wonder how people from tulak hord and leviathan are getting top places in solo ranked in current season...i played on those servers and can confirm that sr and tr are dead there. Makes me wonder if those players just wintrading or asking their friends to queue whith them in solo ranked and make a view/simulation of the fight when the guy who asked others to queue and tries to get elo wins of course...so while people on DM,ss and sf are fighting against skilled players without being able to queue with/against their friends (which is fair) players on dead servers are just gathering a few friends and winning all matches with easy mode.

 

How you going to fight this, devs? Maybe it's time to merge servers or give top 3 titles based on server?

 

They will always adapt. After the revelations now they will change their approach that is all. If they have time to do 1000 matches they will find the time to trick the Devs so much that they will not be able to look through their scheme.

[omaan]

They will always adapt. After the revelations now they will change their approach that is all. If they have time to do 1000 matches they will find the time to trick the Devs so much that they will not be able to look through their scheme.

 

I guess thats why big games like wow have cross-server queues for rated battleground so that people couldnt queue against/with their friends and get easy wins. But we can only dream about cross-server queues

[Talon_strikes]

So cool to see that the solo leaderboards are still full of wintraders and backfillers. Many of them have been posting in discord waiting to get their top 3 rewards, on top of the gold rewards they've already received.

[TrixxieTriss]

So cool to see that the solo leaderboards are still full of wintraders and backfillers. Many of them have been posting in discord waiting to get their top 3 rewards, on top of the gold rewards they've already received.

 

It’s a real shame Bioware don’t place a mole into those discord channels to see all of this.