7:15 pm PST and there is only 1 instance of 75 people on Satele Shan pub side fleet

[LordTurin]

I assure you, I'm not back peddling on anything. But your quote of mine wasn't what you claimed it was...please stop lying.

 

The more I think about this question, the more I need to correct my assessment...it's not dying, it's purposefully being killed.

 

Man, 30 seconds with the search function and it's amazing what you find...

 

Dude, stop pretending you haven't been saying the game is dying. You have been. I'm not sure why you're pretending you've not been you're welcome to your opinion of course. But after 6 years, dont be surprised that folks dont take you that seriously when you talk about it.

[TUXs]

Man, 30 seconds with the search function and it's amazing what you find...

 

Dude, stop pretending you haven't been saying the game is dying. You have been. I'm not sure why you're pretending you've not been you're welcome to your opinion of course. But after 6 years, dont be surprised that folks dont take you that seriously when you talk about it.

Talk about what exactly??? Fleet numbers? Because that's all I've talked about here. Fleet numbers represent a servers health...that's been my stance the entire time, and still is. The people talking nonstop about the game dying are you and Vember...not me.

[Batwer]

The game is still running until 6.0. What comes next .... Well .... I still hope for a SWTOR 2.

[Dweessies]

The game is still running until 6.0. What comes next .... Well .... I still hope for a SWTOR 2.

 

We'd be better off if they actually did a Kotor 3. BW/EA have no idea how to develop and run an MMO, but BW at least used to be pretty darn good at single player RPGs.

[TrooperRCH]

That’s not true. It’s definitely not 24/7.

 

My week long binge playing says you're wrong.

[TUXs]

We'd be better off if they actually did a Kotor 3. BW/EA have no idea how to develop and run an MMO, but BW at least used to be pretty darn good at single player RPGs.

There's more money in MMOs...they can charge subscriptions AND offer DLC/cash shop items. I'm sure the upfront cost is greater, but long term it's a minimal expense for far greater longevity. Remember, this game was gunning for W0W during development...W0W has proven that MMOs can be cash cows.

[TrixxieTriss]

My week long binge playing says you're wrong.

 

Which server?

 

You obviously didn’t play 24/7 or you’d be dead from lack of sleep.

 

So what hours did you play on what days?

Edited June 28, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[Resputin]

I believe the fleet does have some determination on the health of the population but its mainly directed to the health of the solo and small guild players. For those that like to run solo or in small guilds they will look at the fleet as their main social hub and hang out there because they are looking for ops/fps or any other group activity. This is why I think you always see the fleet blow up on certain instances like a new expansion or release of a big chapter or a merger. As people come back to try it out the fleet numbers grow because they are looking for groups and are not in bigger guilds. As they tend to get in a bigger guild or they quit the fleet starts to shrink to a smaller average number. At least thats my take on the fleet activity in the past 8 years I played.

[drug_cartel]

I find it humorous that the Doomspeakers repeatedly create this same thread... and it's always Republic Side Fleet.

 

There is a well-established player disparity between Republic and Imperial sides. Because the game is multi-player, and uses the primitive WoW 2 faction system instead of a REAL faction system like Everquest, all players will gradually congregate to the same faction. Because nobody wants to sit for 2 hours waiting for a group, when they could simply log over to the other faction and have one in five minutes.

 

It's a flaw in gameplay design, but it doesn't mean the game is dead. At the same time as you were complaining that fleet on Republic side was somehow indicative of a dead game, Imperial Side had 3 instances of Fleet, and that's not counting all the people who were actually out running content.

 

Instead of crying "Game is dead. Merge all servers. Blah blah blah." because the Republic side has a low population, you should look at the two viable solutions for these rigid 2 faction games. Either the game opens up cross-faction play, so that everybody can play with the full population rather than being limited to only a small subsection of it, or one faction virtually dies while everybody consolidates on the same side. Because in the end, the vast majority of group orientated players are going to play on the side where it's easier to find a group, even if it means starting from scratch.

[Nightblazer]

Oh look another one of these threads. Yeah that will make all the difference and magically just fix everything by discussing the same things that's discussed in every thread. Make sure to keep posting numbers since we are all pretty sure they can't see any of that on their end. :D:D:D:D Edited June 29, 2018 by Nightblazer

[TUXs]

I find it humorous that the Doomspeakers repeatedly create this same thread... and it's always Republic Side Fleet.

 

It's a flaw in gameplay design, but it doesn't mean the game is dead.

 

Instead of crying "Game is dead. Merge all servers. Blah blah blah." because the Republic side has a low population, you should look at the two viable solutions for these rigid 2 faction games. Either the game opens up cross-faction play, so that everybody can play with the full population rather than being limited to only a small subsection of it, or one faction virtually dies while everybody consolidates on the same side.

So your reasoning for declining Fleet numbers is because players are consolidating to one faction? If that's the case, why aren't Imp side players noticing an increase in players on Fleet?

 

As for the "instead" part...what are you talking about??? A server merge is 1000x's more likely than cross faction PvE play. In fact, we've had 3 server mergers so far and only PvP has ever had anything cross faction. I'm completely in favor of cross faction play...I'd welcome it very gladly!!! But we've got a better chance of another server merge than we do cross faction PvE play. The point I'm trying to make is that your "instead" is far more unrealistic than another server merge.

[Vember]

Two instances Imp fleet last night for SS...two instances on imp fleet every night during prime time on Harbinger for several years.

 

Looks the same to me.

 

Planets, however....way more instances than I'm used to seeing.

[LeelaSeventen]

I am not sure why anyone would consider the fleet an indication on how popular the game is. I can't think of too many reasons for my toons to be on the fleet. I am normally on star forge and when I do go on the fleet there is always people there. Edited June 29, 2018 by LeelaSeventen

[TUXs]

I am not sure why anyonewould consider the fleet an indication on how popular the game is. I can't think of too many reasons for my toons to be on the fleet. I am normally on star forge and when I do go on the fleet there is always people there.

Historically, as the Fleet populations die down, so does the servers overall population. I've been through all 3 server mergers in the past and Fleet has always the best (and first) indicator. You not being on Fleet is irrelevant because you were never counted as a player who visited Fleet. You're likely in the majority of players who avoids the Fleet altogether...that doesn't negate the fact that Fleet is the best measure we have of the servers overall health.

 

I'm curious...where would you get your sample from? Where do you think there's a better place to observe population trends at?

Edited June 29, 2018 by TUXs

[Andryah]

I find it humorous that the Doomspeakers repeatedly create this same thread... and it's always Republic Side Fleet.

 

There is a well-established player disparity between Republic and Imperial sides. Because the game is multi-player, and uses the primitive WoW 2 faction system instead of a REAL faction system like Everquest, all players will gradually congregate to the same faction. Because nobody wants to sit for 2 hours waiting for a group, when they could simply log over to the other faction and have one in five minutes.

 

It's a flaw in gameplay design, but it doesn't mean the game is dead. At the same time as you were complaining that fleet on Republic side was somehow indicative of a dead game, Imperial Side had 3 instances of Fleet, and that's not counting all the people who were actually out running content.

 

Instead of crying "Game is dead. Merge all servers. Blah blah blah." because the Republic side has a low population, you should look at the two viable solutions for these rigid 2 faction games. Either the game opens up cross-faction play, so that everybody can play with the full population rather than being limited to only a small subsection of it, or one faction virtually dies while everybody consolidates on the same side. Because in the end, the vast majority of group orientated players are going to play on the side where it's easier to find a group, even if it means starting from scratch.

 

Very well stated.

 

And apparently.. the studio agrees with you as they are addressing cross faction this summer to take away the most of the angst over faction imbalances.

[Andryah]

Two instances Imp fleet last night for SS...two instances on imp fleet every night during prime time on Harbinger for several years.

 

Looks the same to me.

 

Planets, however....way more instances than I'm used to seeing.

 

Yeah.... this is a much more accurate use of Fleet as a barometer. Though I would note that I think back in Harbingers heyday... they allowed a higher cap on each Fleet instance... but again.. it's a single data point and as such can not tell players very much really about player activity.... precisely because over time.. players are spreading out more as to where they hang around during non active play time... with strongholds being a prime location these days (which of course means stronghold chat gets more cess pool over time). Compared to the "old days" It is amazing how active planet instances are these days.... which actually is a data point that contradicts the claims that Fleet is THE metric.

 

Fleet, at best, is a fractional data point as to the activity on a server. While in 2012 it was a much larger fraction of measure... now days.. I would say the only real way to assess server activity levels is to actually take the time to poll all instances on a server and aggregate the data... and then continue to do it every day... month in and month out. THAT is the only accurate relative measure of activity on a server. It would also give a very clear insight as to broader player movements around the server as well... which could help put Fleet populations in an accurate context for a server. But this is way too much work for anyone looking to create a negative narrative about the games player base.. so it does not happen because it's easier to just poll Fleet when you are pissed off about long queue times (which is not strictly a population based problem) and blame it all on a low fleet population.

Edited June 29, 2018 by Andryah

[Stellarcrusade]

I don'\t deny the population may be shrinking from lack of content, however people continue to use only Fleet numbers to indicate this. This idea is wrong. Ever since SH's came out into the game less people spend time on Fleet. I've been in many guilds on various characters/servers, and many people spend time in SH's or out on planets instead. They go to fleet only for PvP/GSF dailies/weeklies, picking up dailies, or Operation quests, or last looking for pugs.

 

Normally I would agree, but if there really was lots of players they could simply allow us to see how many are on with something like /who all or /who server or something. Since they don't, they are obviously hiding the fact that there are 3 people playing this game....;-)

[aerockyul]

Yeah.... this is a much more accurate use of Fleet as a barometer. Though I would note that I think back in Harbingers heyday... they allowed a higher cap on each Fleet instance... but again.. it's a single data point and as such can not tell players very much really about player activity.... precisely because over time.. players are spreading out more as to where they hang around during non active play time... with strongholds being a prime location these days (which of course means stronghold chat gets more cess pool over time). Compared to the "old days" It is amazing how active planet instances are these days.... which actually is a data point that contradicts the claims that Fleet is THE metric.

 

Fleet, at best, is a fractional data point as to the activity on a server. While in 2012 it was a much larger fraction of measure... now days.. I would say the only real way to assess server activity levels is to actually take the time to poll all instances on a server and aggregate the data... and then continue to do it every day... month in and month out. THAT is the only accurate relative measure of activity on a server. It would also give a very clear insight as to broader player movements around the server as well... which could help put Fleet populations in an accurate context for a server. But this is way too much work for anyone looking to create a negative narrative about the games player base.. so it does not happen because it's easier to just poll Fleet when you are pissed off about long queue times (which is not strictly a population based problem) and blame it all on a low fleet population.

 

That sort of methodology gives us climate change data (over years/decades/centuries, not just months, of course)

 

The methodology used by the "fleet is low, game is dead" crowd is like the ******* who sees heavier snow on one day in the winter than usual and proclaims to the world that global warming must be a hoax because it's snowing and cold where he is at at that one point in time.

 

I'm sure Bioware pays attention to the latter guy, and not their own data that encompasses all population data for the entire galaxy 24/7 for the entire world.

Edited June 29, 2018 by aerockyul

[TrixxieTriss]

That sort of methodology gives us climate change data (over years/decades/centuries, not just months, of course)

 

The methodology used by the "fleet is low, game is dead" crowd is like the ******* who sees heavier snow on one day in the winter than usual and proclaims to the world that global warming must be a hoax because it's snowing and cold where he is at at that one point in time.

 

I'm sure Bioware pays attention to the latter guy, and not their own data that encompasses all population data for the entire galaxy 24/7 for the entire world.

 

And yet, some public figures with massive amounts of influence (The Orange Tycoon) still say that climate data is wrong and there is no global warming.

 

It won’t matter what data people provide, some people will say it’s faulty or not collected right if it doesn’t fit their argument or what they choose to believe. In those cases there is nothing you can do to convince them otherwise because their mind is made up.

 

What you can do is try and persuade those in the middle or whose minds aren’t made up. Good debate is healthy and should be encouraged.

Observations help, but only as a context, everything is up for debate, especially on the internet.

[Andryah]

And yet, some public figures with massive amounts of influence (The Orange Tycoon) still say that climate data is wrong and there is no global warming.

 

It won’t matter what data people provide, some people will say it’s faulty or not collected right if it doesn’t fit their argument or what they choose to believe. In those cases there is nothing you can do to convince them otherwise because their mind is made up.

 

^^ this is called "acute confirmation bias", a chronic and growing epidemic in society as it seems to be a growing trend across many topics in human society these days. Society appears to be gradually devolving back to tribalism.

 

Now... it's not like human society has ever really been broadly non-biased and non-partisan. It has always been a thing... it's just that the focus of bias and partisanship changes to whatever flavor-of-the-month 2-hate/defend symbol is popular in the moment. Social media though has put the who phenomena on steroids because literally everyone can get their 15 mintutes of fame for anything if they choose to.

Edited June 30, 2018 by Andryah

[TrixxieTriss]

^^ this is called "acute confirmation bias", a chronic and growing epidemic in society as it seems to be a growing trend across many topics in human society these days. Society appears to be gradually devolving back to tribalism.

 

Now... it's not like human society has ever really been broadly non-biased and non-partisan. It has always been a thing... it's just that the focus of bias and partisanship changes to whatever flavor-of-the-month 2-hate/defend symbol is popular in the moment. Social media though has put the who phenomena on steroids because literally everyone can get their 15 mintutes of fame for anything if they choose to.

 

Popular rule is quickly becoming the norm and evidence based rule is ignored.

 

People seem to have become too complacent and stopped using their own brains and reasoning on subjects. They rely on social media and popular or famous individuals to make the decisions for them.

 

Next thing we’ll be told the world is flat and the earth is the centre of the solar system and everything scientifically based is a lie.

And infact, there is actually a movement on the internet that insists the world is flat and we’ve all been lied to. The fact that there is a movement suggests that people will believe anything on the internet.

 

Sadly, I think large parts of the population are already devolving to a non-evidence based belief system. They wait to be told what to think and just go along with it because other people are.

This is how extremists, dictators and authoritarian systems work. They pray on the weak minded and convert them to following what they say blindly. Eventually there is this overwhelming tide of acceptance of the message that any facts are ignored as heresy or “fake news”.

 

At this rate, we’ll end up in a modern day version of the dark ages. I have grave fears for the further if this continues. It may not happen in my life time. But if something doesn’t change, I think voices of reason will end up being drowned out by the voice of erroneous popularism.

[Floredon]

1. Every MMO I have ever played had a large drop in active population during the summer as people go on vacations and otherwise enjoy the outdoors.

2. 7:15 PST is 10:15 EST, which is pretty late at night for most people. A better measure would be 6:15PST on a Tuesday night.

3. Pub side just doesn't have as many players as Imp side.

[TrixxieTriss]

1. Every MMO I have ever played had a large drop in active population during the summer as people go on vacations and otherwise enjoy the outdoors.

2. 7:15 PST is 10:15 EST, which is pretty late at night for most people. A better measure would be 6:15PST on a Tuesday night.

3. Pub side just doesn't have as many players as Imp side.

 

Why a Tuesday?

[Khaleg]

Why a Tuesday?

 

I guess because HE has time to play on Tuesday lol! I see no sensemaking reason though hehe

Edited July 2, 2018 by Khaleg

[Ylliarus]

Ah yes, the neverending Fleet argument... really it has become tedious at this point. During European prime time on Darth Malgus the fleet is loaded, almost always with 2 instances if not 3. Lots of people on Dromund Kaas and Korriban as well.

 

The doomsayers have been there since the launch of this game and will forever be there. I don't see any signs this game is dying or its population declining in a significant way. Sales on GTN are frequent, group finder pops almost instantly and I don't see a lack of players ingame. Sorry, but I won't join the little "the game is dead/dying" chorus

 

Oh btw... IT'S JULY. People go on holidays or don't spend time behind the computer BECAUSE IT IS DAMN HOT OUTSIDE. Summer has always seen a decline in activity, why oh why would it be significant this time around? Stop the constant doomsaying and enjoy the game, for goodness sake.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Ylliarus