Conquest Feedback and Upcoming Changes

[KendraP]

And another conquest week where capping alts involves running 42 battles of ilum. And there are so few one off objectives that getting points is quite the challenge.

[Costello]

What made the old system better?

 

I get that it was often easier to meet the target, the target was also seldom legacy restricted and the choice of actions often included a few more choices.

 

I agree that this week seems awful and is almost completely focused on group content. I also get that some people would say all content should be forced group content cause this is an MMO. This isn't my view but given how much time has been devoted to group activities in 2017 and start of 2018, that may be Keith and the devs teams view. So if you don't like group content your probably not going to like 2018. Which I think is a valid criticism of the current design and the direction the game is going in.

 

But what was it about being able to get points on alts and some reward which may or may not have much impact on the gameplay that made it as a system so much better. Saying there isn't enough content, not enough content you like, the story has gone bad, loss of favourite companion, no open world PvP, poor space experience etc etc I can see as valid reasons to say this game is done, good bye.

 

However it appears that for many the changes to conquest are where the issue lies. And like I say each to their own and everyone should be able to play the game how they want, even if its sitting on Nar Shaddar saying how war criminals turn them on. What is it about the old system and being able to get points on multiple characters in a legacy, to get rewards you don't need and have plenty of that made a change so game breaking. Is it really about the Jawa junk and whatever that purple crafting material?

 

Now please don't think I'm defending the change to conquest, I'm not. But given the state of the game and the story and the resources being spent to Anthem, any of this I could understand quitting over. But its harder to see why conquest is that game breaking cause the rewards just don't seem that important so completing it multiple times a week doesn't seem to be that vital. Or is there something else that makes it an integral part of the game.

[KendraP]

What made the old system better?.

1. Alts allowed small guilds to compete - maybe not for first place, but certainly to get on the board.

 

2. Because points were so readily repeatable, you could play what and how you wanted AND still help your guild.

 

3. No one cares about the jawa junk - its thr flagship encryptions. I used to get 5-15 a week by myself. Now? I get 2.

 

4. The higher grind is atrocious. And I'm someone with a full stronghold bonus. God forbid you dont have the buttloads of credits to dump into expansions. Or hopefully you got lucky with 3 coruscant and 3 DK strongholds. Here i paid to unlock yavin, tattoine, and manaan.

 

These points have been countered with:

1. "Conquest has always been a legacy activity."

 

2. Honestly not sure if they've addressed this or not. Been too busy rampaging over tank changes.

 

3. Well they're adding transmatter and memory core things to the medium and large planets to improve the reward. Thanks for nothing, by the way.

 

4. Again, not sure how they've addressed this.

[masterceil]

1. Alts allowed small guilds to compete - maybe not for first place, but certainly to get on the board.

 

2. Because points were so readily repeatable, you could play what and how you wanted AND still help your guild.

 

3. No one cares about the jawa junk - its thr flagship encryptions. I used to get 5-15 a week by myself. Now? I get 2.

 

4. The higher grind is atrocious. And I'm someone with a full stronghold bonus. God forbid you dont have the buttloads of credits to dump into expansions. Or hopefully you got lucky with 3 coruscant and 3 DK strongholds. Here i paid to unlock yavin, tattoine, and manaan.

 

These points have been countered with:

1. "Conquest has always been a legacy activity."

 

2. Honestly not sure if they've addressed this or not. Been too busy rampaging over tank changes.

 

3. Well they're adding transmatter and memory core things to the medium and large planets to improve the reward. Thanks for nothing, by the way.

 

4. Again, not sure how they've addressed this.

 

2. They really haven't. Apparently PvP will be bigger in 5.9, but that's not exactly catering to everybody. No word on Heroics or Weeklies outside TGW or GF FPs, etc. There are some new objectives we hadn't seen before (e.g. Bounties, Chapters, GSI Weeklies), but nothing to keep you occupied on alts at the scope Old Conquest did.

 

4. Floors for point values seem to be going up across the board in 5.9 as well. I don't know if the ceiling is still going to be 3000/7500 Conquest Points, but the raised minimums will help alleviate some of the pain from the grind. Indirectly, there's the Rishi Stronghold coming up. An expense, to be sure, likely going to be comparable in price to Manaan or Yavin etc. But people may buy it just to have it, and those people will benefit.

 

Specifically, it looks like Repeatable objectives get an increase of about 40% Conquest Points. Daily objectives are going up about 21, 20, and 10% for Low, Medium, and High point values, respectively. Repeatable PvP rewards specifically are going to see a 112% increase in point values, and Repeatable FP/Uprisings are getting about a 123% increase.

[TUXs]

What made the old system better?

Here's my list - the old system was better because:

 

• It encouraged alt play

• It was a side activity that was rewarding

• It could be a full time activity and be rewarding

• It was a guild activity

• It was a group activity

• It was a solo activity

• It was an easy way for new players to make some $ (farming mats)

• It encouraged playing just a tiny bit longer to hit goals (one more FP, WZ, GSF, alt)

• It encouraged grouping up to hit goals

• It encouraged trying PvP, GSF, FPs, Ops for easy rewards

• It was a great "down time" activity

• It was a phenomenal credit sink

• It was a phenomenal material sink

• It was a phenomenal Jawa Junk sink

• It was a part of the game that rewarded HUGE guilds, tiny guilds, and medium guilds, even solo players

• It encouraged players to do one more PvP match to finish a daily/weekly

• It encouraged one more GF FP to finish a daily/weekly

• It encouraged one more GSF match to finish a daily/weekly

• It was a hardcore player activity

• It was a casual player activity

• It encouraged PuG play

• It encouraged Heroics

• It encouraged Daily missions

• It encouraged very diverse gameplay and rewarded players for trying things

 

The list goes on and on and on...it was better because it simply drove activity!!! LOTS of activity!!! Everything from resource gathering, to GTN sales...sometimes it was tiny things, other times it was all hands on deck type of things. It was something a guild could plan for, or a solo player could participate in. It was casual friendly, but also hardcore friendly because you could log on alts and keep going for it. It was something you could focus a lot on, or a tiny bit on.

 

It was healthy for the game...this new system is not. This new system hurts the game. The new system doesn't foster trying anything, it requires full time participation. The new system penalizes alts. The new system doesn't encourage me to swap roles for the needed role, because I'm punished for doing the many one time activities on that alt. What was once casual and alt friendly, has now become alt prohibitive and casual impossible.

Edited April 11, 2018 by TUXs

[Manjaca]

Here's my list - the old system was better because:

 

• It encouraged alt play

• It was a side activity that was rewarding

• It could be a full time activity and be rewarding

• It was a guild activity

• It was a group activity

• It was a solo activity

• It was an easy way for new players to make some $ (farming mats)

• It encouraged playing just a tiny bit longer to hit goals (one more FP, WZ, GSF, alt)

• It encouraged grouping up to hit goals

• It encouraged trying PvP, GSF, FPs, Ops for easy rewards

• It was a great "down time" activity

• It was a phenomenal credit sink

• It was a phenomenal material sink

• It was a phenomenal Jawa Junk sink

• It was a part of the game that rewarded HUGE guilds, tiny guilds, and medium guilds, even solo players

• It encouraged players to do one more PvP match to finish a daily/weekly

• It encouraged one more GF FP to finish a daily/weekly

• It encouraged one more GSF match to finish a daily/weekly

• It was a hardcore player activity

• It was a casual player activity

• It encouraged PuG play

• It encouraged Heroics

• It encouraged Daily missions

• It encouraged very diverse gameplay and rewarded players for trying things

 

The list goes on and on and on...it was better because it simply drove activity!!! LOTS of activity!!! Everything from resource gathering, to GTN sales...sometimes it was tiny things, other times it was all hands on deck type of things. It was something a guild could plan for, or a solo player could participate in. It was casual friendly, but also hardcore friendly because you could log on alts and keep going for it. It was something you could focus a lot on, or a tiny bit on.

 

It was healthy for the game...this new system is not. This new system hurts the game. The new system doesn't foster trying anything, it requires full time participation. The new system penalizes alts. The new system doesn't encourage me to swap roles for the needed role, because I'm punished for doing the many one time activities on that alt. What was once casual and alt friendly, has now become alt prohibitive and casual impossible.

 

 

This is a very good summary of the good old Conquest System.

 

I Sign this.

 

Thank you Tux

[masterceil]

Here's my list - the old system was better because:

 

• It encouraged alt play New Conquest indeed does not

• It was a side activity that was rewarding The rewards have increased in New Conquest, and it's still a "side activity"

• It could be a full time activity and be rewarding New Conquest is indeed less rewarding for time invested

• It was a guild activity So is New Conquest

• It was a group activity So is New Conquest

• It was a solo activity Yeah, solo players are getting shafted in New Conquest

• It was an easy way for new players to make some $ (farming mats) Farming mats in particular is less lucrative, but it's easier to get the Guild Rewards now, and selling Flagship Encryptions can offer some nice cash, in addition to the 50k credit chip

• It encouraged playing just a tiny bit longer to hit goals (one more FP, WZ, GSF, alt) Depending on the objective, New Conquest can also be just another activity or two to hit the new, lower goal

• It encouraged grouping up to hit goals New Conquest practically forces it on you. Also, you already mentioned it was a 'group activity' (same as New Conquest)

• It encouraged trying PvP, GSF, FPs, Ops for easy rewards Old Conquest was indeed far more rewarding for those activities.

• It was a great "down time" activity Old and New Conquest both are...

• It was a phenomenal credit sink If anything, New Conquest gives you more ways to sink credits (lol Hutt)

• It was a phenomenal material sink If you're looking to sink mats, new War Supplies schematics are what you'll find...

• It was a phenomenal Jawa Junk sink If you're looking to sink mats, new War Supplies schematics are what you'll find...

• It was a part of the game that rewarded HUGE guilds, tiny guilds, and medium guilds, even solo players New Conquest actually rewards 'medium' and 'tiny' guilds better, so long as they manage to hit 200k - no more praying to make it onto the board.

• It encouraged players to do one more PvP match to finish a daily/weekly You really want to do the Weekly more when it's an objective in New Conquest, because you need those points. Only reason this text isn't "lime" is that New Conquest only lets you do the Weekly once.

• It encouraged one more GF FP to finish a daily/weekly You really want to do the Weekly more when it's an objective in New Conquest, because you need those points. Only reason this text isn't "lime" is that New Conquest only lets you do the Weekly once.

• It encouraged one more GSF match to finish a daily/weekly You really want to do the Weekly more when it's an objective in New Conquest, because you need those points. Only reason this text isn't "lime" is that New Conquest only lets you do the Weekly once.

• It was a hardcore player activity New Conquest is great for hardcore players.

• It was a casual player activity New Conquest is not great for casuals...

• It encouraged PuG play So does New Conquest, if you don't happen to be in a raiding guild. Those sweet 7500 point ops objectives, tho...

• It encouraged Heroics Almost considered making this text black, but for consistency... Yeah, New Conquest sucks hard at this.

• It encouraged Daily missions Lots of Weeklies up in Total Galactic War, and we saw the GSI weekly and doing a Bounty as an objective for the first time in New Conquest - perhaps even more to come.

• It encouraged very diverse gameplay and rewarded players for trying things Last week, this may have been another "lime" line, but Flashpoint Havoc dropped the hell out of that ball. Previous New Conquest weeks have indeed been more friendly for more types of play.

 

The list goes on and on and on...it was better because it simply drove activity!!! LOTS of activity!!! Everything from resource gathering, to GTN sales...sometimes it was tiny things, other times it was all hands on deck type of things. It was something a guild could plan for, or a solo player could participate in. It was casual friendly, but also hardcore friendly because you could log on alts and keep going for it. It was something you could focus a lot on, or a tiny bit on.

 

It was healthy for the game...this new system is not. This new system hurts the game. The new system doesn't foster trying anything, it requires full time participation. The new system penalizes alts. The new system doesn't encourage me to swap roles for the needed role, because I'm punished for doing the many one time activities on that alt. What was once casual and alt friendly, has now become alt prohibitive and casual impossible.

 

I think New Conquest is better than Old Conquest in these regards. (x9)

Old Conquest was indeed better for these points. (x6)

Little/no difference between the two, really. (x9)

[TUXs]

I think New Conquest is better than Old Conquest in these regards. (x9)

Old Conquest was indeed better for these points. (x6)

Little/no difference between the two, really. (x9)

I won't go through all the reasons I think you're wrong...I mean it when I say that there is literally NOTHING better about this new system. NOTHING! It has done nothing but hurt the game. You can find ways to farm it all you like, but it has actively HURT this game...to support it, like you are, is supporting damaging our diminishing player base.

[Jdast]

This is not sarcasm, thank you to both Tux and Masterceil for elevating the debate based on concrete, substantive issues.

 

What I'm about to say is undoubtedly selfish, since we all view the game through our own personal lens. Before I do, though, I give kudo points to Masterceil (like s/he cares but nonetheless, I rarely compliment people)...but (isn't there always a but)...

 

Masterceil, you can frame it 9 vs. 6, but the categories you evaluate should not be weighed equally. You openly acknowledge that the new system discourages the playing of alts.

 

For me at least, that is the central issue. Sometimes, even tanks and healers want to let off steam and just pew pew pew.

 

As Joonbeams has articulately noted, ditto Toraakk (spelling?), as well as many others including the FABULOUS moi, this has unintended consequences and ripple effects. Meaning, less PuGs happening across the board -- though in full disclosure -- I can't say that for GSF since I've never tried it.

 

You raise good points Masterceil, but each benefit vs. each negative are not all equal. As PennyAnn noted eloquently in several threads -- when all is said and done -- it is not clear that the new system even achieves its supposed goals.

 

In the end, the new conquest system discourages people playing. That's a bad thing.

 

Dasty

Edited April 11, 2018 by Jdast

[masterceil]

This is not sarcasm, thank you to both Tux and Masterceil for elevating the debate based on concrete, substantive issues.

 

What I'm about to say is undoubtedly selfish, since we all view the game through our own personal lens. Before I do, though, I give kudo points to Masterceil (like s/he cares but nonetheless, I rarely compliment people)...but (isn't there always a but)...

 

Masterceil, you can frame it 9 vs. 6, but the categories you evaluate should not be weighted equally. You openly acknowledge that the new system discourages the playing of alts. For me at least, that is the central issue.

 

Fundamentally, the new system discourages the playing of alts. Sometimes, even tanks and healers want to let off steam and just pew pew pew.

 

As Joonbeams has articulately noted, ditto Toraakk (spelling?), and others have noted... this has unintended consequences and ripple effects. Meaning, less PuGs happening across the board -- though in full honesty -- I can't say that for GSF since I've never tried it.

 

You raise good points Masterceil, but each benefit vs. each negative are not all equal. As PennyAnn noted eloquently in several threads -- when all is said and done -- it is not clear that the new system even achieves its supposed goals.

 

In the end, the game discourages people playing. That's a bad thing.

 

Dasty

 

Sure, and I appreciate your giving a thorough, well-reasoned response to my previous post. Proper debates are fun for me, which is why I spend so much time advocating for the devil. I think debates are significantly less enjoyable when the other side is basically "no u" in their depth of content. I usually try to just not respond to such lazy ripostes, lest the conversations devolve into what happened with poor olgaton (sp?) in this and other threads. That was partly their own fault, but a lot of posters wasted a lot of posts pointlessly taking easy, mindless jabs at that person, totally ignoring the occasional good points they did bring to the table.

 

Anyway, enough about the merits of intelligent discourse.

 

I did indeed view each of TUXs' bullet points in a vacuum, simply going down the list and responding to each one without looking much at the others, or each point's value in the grander scheme of Conquest as a whole. My only point, being the Devil's Advocate that I am, was that not everything on that list is a mark against New Conquest - in fact, many were not.

 

At the same time, I did indeed agree that alt play has quite thoroughly been diminished in New Conquest. That wasn't the point I was making at the time, so I didn't push too hard on that issue, but you (and others) are correct - New Conquest is not friendly to alts or solo players at all, and that is a huge detriment to the system as a whole. In that regard, New Conquest needs surgery, but unfortunately will only receive stitches come 1 May with the increased point values.

 

However, there are, as you have pointed out, several posters here already lambasting everything about New Conquest, justified or otherwise. Rather than fuel that fire and contribute to the proverbial echo chamber, my goal here has been to remind people that there are some good things about New Conquest, and that more good things are coming. Unfortunately, this amounts to throwing a glass of water on a house fire, to continue that metaphor, as some of the more vehement opposition will refuse to even admit that having a threshold for receiving Guild Rewards rather than a requirement to be on the leaderboard is a good thing, let alone recognise the other virtues there are to be found post-5.8.

 

Again, I appreciate your candid response, and your willingness to engage in an actual conversation. You do make some good points, as do some of the other posters in this thread (including those that seem to unequivocally loathe New Conquest, such as PennyAnn). If only everybody in this thread - or on the forums in general - were so capable of engaging in post-adolescent discourse.

[DarthSpuds]

I won't go through all the reasons I think you're wrong...I mean it when I say that there is literally NOTHING better about this new system. NOTHING! It has done nothing but hurt the game. You can find ways to farm it all you like, but it has actively HURT this game...to support it, like you are, is supporting damaging our diminishing player base.

 

I agree with TUX on this.

 

Personally I don't PvP or GSF - so being purely selfish I don't care what CQ5.8+ does to them.

 

But I do accept that other players do enjoy those things, and that those players justifiably have the right to expect similar levels of enjoyment/reward for their chosen activities as I expect from my chosen activities.

 

And in that regard there genuinely is not anything positive about CQ5.8+ - there just isn't.

 

As Joonbeams pointed out CQ5.8+ locks players out of switching role to get something done, because doing so loses points on the Personal Goal total.

 

And there is not one single shred of love in CQ5.8+ for the Solo-Altoholic, as a mainly solo player who runs numerous Alts there is NO INCENTIVE AT ALL for me to engage with CQ5.8+, and so I don't.

 

As many complaints as I have about the current state of the game (truly laughable for an alleged Triple A game) I still enjoy playing - my toons, my way. Since CQ5.8 I would estimate my weekly hours played has more than halved. My Sub is cancelled (expiry date in Sig) and I doubt it will be renewed unless my current hours/week played time returns to my pre CQ5.8 levels.

 

And to be honest, this game really is not worth playing F2P, so they damn well better make the Subscription worth it, and right now it isn't.

 

All The Best

[Lhancelot]

Here's my list - the old system was better because:

 

• It encouraged alt play

• It was a side activity that was rewarding

• It could be a full time activity and be rewarding

• It was a guild activity

• It was a group activity

• It was a solo activity

• It was an easy way for new players to make some $ (farming mats)

• It encouraged playing just a tiny bit longer to hit goals (one more FP, WZ, GSF, alt)

• It encouraged grouping up to hit goals

• It encouraged trying PvP, GSF, FPs, Ops for easy rewards

• It was a great "down time" activity

• It was a phenomenal credit sink

• It was a phenomenal material sink

• It was a phenomenal Jawa Junk sink

• It was a part of the game that rewarded HUGE guilds, tiny guilds, and medium guilds, even solo players

• It encouraged players to do one more PvP match to finish a daily/weekly

• It encouraged one more GF FP to finish a daily/weekly

• It encouraged one more GSF match to finish a daily/weekly

• It was a hardcore player activity

• It was a casual player activity

• It encouraged PuG play

• It encouraged Heroics

• It encouraged Daily missions

• It encouraged very diverse gameplay and rewarded players for trying things

 

The list goes on and on and on...it was better because it simply drove activity!!! LOTS of activity!!! Everything from resource gathering, to GTN sales...sometimes it was tiny things, other times it was all hands on deck type of things. It was something a guild could plan for, or a solo player could participate in. It was casual friendly, but also hardcore friendly because you could log on alts and keep going for it. It was something you could focus a lot on, or a tiny bit on.

 

It was healthy for the game...this new system is not. This new system hurts the game. The new system doesn't foster trying anything, it requires full time participation. The new system penalizes alts. The new system doesn't encourage me to swap roles for the needed role, because I'm punished for doing the many one time activities on that alt. What was once casual and alt friendly, has now become alt prohibitive and casual impossible.

 

You forgot one important aspect of the old conquest system, Tux!

 

• It was fun

 

Have any new interviews with important players been had by the devs or Eric? Seeing this is how we get information now, I figured I would ask, maybe something is out I missed?

 

We should have a separate forum sub-section that includes links of interviews so we can keep up to date with what changes are going to occur regarding the game.

 

Maybe the interviewers could pop in and give us information they got from BW too.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Lhancelot

[Damask_Rose]

I won't go through all the reasons I think you're wrong...I mean it when I say that there is literally NOTHING better about this new system. NOTHING! It has done nothing but hurt the game. You can find ways to farm it all you like, but it has actively HURT this game...to support it, like you are, is supporting damaging our diminishing player base.

 

I'll give a stab at it (Sadly the colors didn't copy so this won't be as pretty.)

 

• It encouraged alt play New Conquest indeed does not

• It was a side activity that was rewarding The rewards have increased in New Conquest, and it's still a "side activity" The point payouts are far too low to be a "side activity". People are playing repeatables for hours and making no dent on getting their personal targets.

• It could be a full time activity and be rewarding New Conquest is indeed less rewarding for time invested

• It was a guild activity So is New Conquest This is very week dependent as it depends on what activities they have. Old conquest more consistently had good guild activities every week.

• It was a group activity So is New Conquest

• It was a solo activity Yeah, solo players are getting shafted in New Conquest

• It was an easy way for new players to make some $ (farming mats) Farming mats in particular is less lucrative, but it's easier to get the Guild Rewards now, and selling Flagship Encryptions can offer some nice cash, in addition to the 50k credit chip It is actually harder to get as many guild rewards since alting is crippled and many guilds are failing to hit the target on medium and large targets.

• It encouraged playing just a tiny bit longer to hit goals (one more FP, WZ, GSF, alt) Depending on the objective, New Conquest can also be just another activity or two to hit the new, lower goal Most of the points for those are so low they just aren't worth doing. People are just opting to skip it instead of grinding like crazy.

• It encouraged grouping up to hit goals New Conquest practically forces it on you. Also, you already mentioned it was a 'group activity' (same as New Conquest) Again much more week dependent than the old system. Solo players might do a veteran flashpoint for a big chunk of points, but very few will do a master mode flashpoint for small amount of points.

• It encouraged trying PvP, GSF, FPs, Ops for easy rewards Old Conquest was indeed far more rewarding for those activities.

• It was a great "down time" activity Old and New Conquest both are... Again, new conquest is far more week dependent. The point payout is still far too low and some weeks don't have quick and easy activities.

• It was a phenomenal credit sink If anything, New Conquest gives you more ways to sink credits (lol Hutt) The cost is too high. Far fewer people are willing to spend the credits to buy crafting mats for conquest when it takes significantly more mats to earn significantly fewer points. And the Hutt thing was just silly.

• It was a phenomenal material sink If you're looking to sink mats, new War Supplies schematics are what you'll find...Same as above. Far fewer people doing crafting because the credits per point ratio is way off. And there are no crafting weeks.

• It was a phenomenal Jawa Junk sink If you're looking to sink mats, new War Supplies schematics are what you'll find...I might be wrong, but I don't think the mats needed are on the Jawa vendors.

• It was a part of the game that rewarded HUGE guilds, tiny guilds, and medium guilds, even solo players New Conquest actually rewards 'medium' and 'tiny' guilds better, so long as they manage to hit 200k - no more praying to make it onto the board. The tiny guilds will rarely make the 200k since alting is crippled. Medium guilds were likely to make top 10 in the old conquest so the guild reward is currently the same for them, but fewer characters will have participated, so fewer encryptions over all.

• It encouraged players to do one more PvP match to finish a daily/weekly You really want to do the Weekly more when it's an objective in New Conquest, because you need those points. Only reason this text isn't "lime" is that New Conquest only lets you do the Weekly once.

• It encouraged one more GF FP to finish a daily/weekly You really want to do the Weekly more when it's an objective in New Conquest, because you need those points. Only reason this text isn't "lime" is that New Conquest only lets you do the Weekly once.

• It encouraged one more GSF match to finish a daily/weekly You really want to do the Weekly more when it's an objective in New Conquest, because you need those points. Only reason this text isn't "lime" is that New Conquest only lets you do the Weekly once.

• It was a hardcore player activity New Conquest is great for hardcore players.

• It was a casual player activity New Conquest is not great for casuals...

• It encouraged PuG play So does New Conquest, if you don't happen to be in a raiding guild. Those sweet 7500 point ops objectives, tho... Again, this is week dependent. Taking veteran flashpoints out of the mix for this week discourages a lot of more casual players from grouping at all because they aren't going to try for master mode.

• It encouraged Heroics Almost considered making this text black, but for consistency... Yeah, New Conquest sucks hard at this.

• It encouraged Daily missions Lots of Weeklies up in Total Galactic War, and we saw the GSI weekly and doing a Bounty as an objective for the first time in New Conquest - perhaps even more to come.

• It encouraged very diverse gameplay and rewarded players for trying things Last week, this may have been another "lime" line, but Flashpoint Havoc dropped the hell out of that ball. Previous New Conquest weeks have indeed been more friendly for more types of play. There hasn't been a single week yet that is better on this score than old conquests. At best it is a draw on some weeks and a disaster on others.

[Andryah]

I'll give a stab at it (Sadly the colors didn't copy so this won't be as pretty.)

 

• It encouraged alt play New Conquest indeed does not

• It was a side activity that was rewarding The rewards have increased in New Conquest, and it's still a "side activity" The point payouts are far too low to be a "side activity". People are playing repeatables for hours and making no dent on getting their personal targets.

• It could be a full time activity and be rewarding New Conquest is indeed less rewarding for time invested

• It was a guild activity So is New Conquest This is very week dependent as it depends on what activities they have. Old conquest more consistently had good guild activities every week.

• It was a group activity So is New Conquest

• It was a solo activity Yeah, solo players are getting shafted in New Conquest

• It was an easy way for new players to make some $ (farming mats) Farming mats in particular is less lucrative, but it's easier to get the Guild Rewards now, and selling Flagship Encryptions can offer some nice cash, in addition to the 50k credit chip It is actually harder to get as many guild rewards since alting is crippled and many guilds are failing to hit the target on medium and large targets.

• It encouraged playing just a tiny bit longer to hit goals (one more FP, WZ, GSF, alt) Depending on the objective, New Conquest can also be just another activity or two to hit the new, lower goal Most of the points for those are so low they just aren't worth doing. People are just opting to skip it instead of grinding like crazy.

• It encouraged grouping up to hit goals New Conquest practically forces it on you. Also, you already mentioned it was a 'group activity' (same as New Conquest) Again much more week dependent than the old system. Solo players might do a veteran flashpoint for a big chunk of points, but very few will do a master mode flashpoint for small amount of points.

• It encouraged trying PvP, GSF, FPs, Ops for easy rewards Old Conquest was indeed far more rewarding for those activities.

• It was a great "down time" activity Old and New Conquest both are... Again, new conquest is far more week dependent. The point payout is still far too low and some weeks don't have quick and easy activities.

• It was a phenomenal credit sink If anything, New Conquest gives you more ways to sink credits (lol Hutt) The cost is too high. Far fewer people are willing to spend the credits to buy crafting mats for conquest when it takes significantly more mats to earn significantly fewer points. And the Hutt thing was just silly.

• It was a phenomenal material sink If you're looking to sink mats, new War Supplies schematics are what you'll find...Same as above. Far fewer people doing crafting because the credits per point ratio is way off. And there are no crafting weeks.

• It was a phenomenal Jawa Junk sink If you're looking to sink mats, new War Supplies schematics are what you'll find...I might be wrong, but I don't think the mats needed are on the Jawa vendors.

• It was a part of the game that rewarded HUGE guilds, tiny guilds, and medium guilds, even solo players New Conquest actually rewards 'medium' and 'tiny' guilds better, so long as they manage to hit 200k - no more praying to make it onto the board. The tiny guilds will rarely make the 200k since alting is crippled. Medium guilds were likely to make top 10 in the old conquest so the guild reward is currently the same for them, but fewer characters will have participated, so fewer encryptions over all.

• It encouraged players to do one more PvP match to finish a daily/weekly You really want to do the Weekly more when it's an objective in New Conquest, because you need those points. Only reason this text isn't "lime" is that New Conquest only lets you do the Weekly once.

• It encouraged one more GF FP to finish a daily/weekly You really want to do the Weekly more when it's an objective in New Conquest, because you need those points. Only reason this text isn't "lime" is that New Conquest only lets you do the Weekly once.

• It encouraged one more GSF match to finish a daily/weekly You really want to do the Weekly more when it's an objective in New Conquest, because you need those points. Only reason this text isn't "lime" is that New Conquest only lets you do the Weekly once.

• It was a hardcore player activity New Conquest is great for hardcore players.

• It was a casual player activity New Conquest is not great for casuals...

• It encouraged PuG play So does New Conquest, if you don't happen to be in a raiding guild. Those sweet 7500 point ops objectives, tho... Again, this is week dependent. Taking veteran flashpoints out of the mix for this week discourages a lot of more casual players from grouping at all because they aren't going to try for master mode.

• It encouraged Heroics Almost considered making this text black, but for consistency... Yeah, New Conquest sucks hard at this.

• It encouraged Daily missions Lots of Weeklies up in Total Galactic War, and we saw the GSI weekly and doing a Bounty as an objective for the first time in New Conquest - perhaps even more to come.

• It encouraged very diverse gameplay and rewarded players for trying things Last week, this may have been another "lime" line, but Flashpoint Havoc dropped the hell out of that ball. Previous New Conquest weeks have indeed been more friendly for more types of play. There hasn't been a single week yet that is better on this score than old conquests. At best it is a draw on some weeks and a disaster on others.

 

I think your assessment is essentially true here. Time will tell if the studio actually addresses these core issues that are seen broadly by players.... or if they have a method to their apparent madness here and will not meet player demands with respect to Conquests.

 

Here is an irony in all of this..... players have been complaining for years now that the studio dumbed down the game and made it too easy... essentially in every category. More recently... ie since 5.0 release... the studio has generally approached changes and/or new content in a manner that makes things for players less easy and a lot more grindy. Of course... players for the most part.. don't really want more grindy..... but that really does not come across clearly in the forums (as an aggregate) ... and leaves a stronger feeling of "stop dumbing down the game and making it too simple and fast to complete content".

 

As a player community, sometimes I think we collectively are our own worst enemies in this regard as we make demands on the studio. And .. NO.. I am not defending the studio here (as everyone should know by now I personally am boycotting Conquests unless/until it is fixed to a reasonable degree)... I am just pointing out that the natural complaints and conflict between players caused by disagreement in said complaints DOES factor into how we as players do/do-not influence the studio in requests for changes.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Andryah

[Stellarcrusade]

You guys can go back and forth arguing which points of the system are worse or better depending on your play style or guild size, but really none of that matters in the larger scope. All that matters is the net affect on the game, because THAT affects everyone. Even if you like the new conquest in some ways, the game will die from it, and unless you want the game to die, its bad for you too.

 

Net game-wide result:

- Dramatically fewer queues, Much less participation, subscribers dropping like rats on a sinking ship, death of small/medium guilds.

 

Those (rare) people who actually like parts of the current system need to ask themselves if they like the "Net result". Because you get what you pay for. If you want a reason to move on to another game, so are secretly rooting for this game to close up shop, then I can see you have good solid reasons to like the new system. My point is, the wide spread affect of this is enourmous. Much greater than I had anticipated, and I'm sure much greater than the devs had also.

[DarthSpuds]

Here is an irony in all of this..... players have been complaining for years now that the studio dumbed down the game and made it too easy...

 

Here's a bigger irony; there's still people out there who claim to be gamers but who understand so little about games and gamers that they still think "difficult" = "grindy as hell".

 

Unfortunately for SWTOR players the Bioware Devs seem to be firmly entrenched among that group.

 

 

All The Best

Edited April 11, 2018 by DarthSpuds

[PorsaLindahl]

I think New Conquest is better than Old Conquest in these regards. (x9)

Old Conquest was indeed better for these points. (x6)

Little/no difference between the two, really. (x9)

• It encouraged Daily missions Lots of Weeklies up in Total Galactic War, and we saw the GSI weekly and doing a Bounty as an objective for the first time in New Conquest - perhaps even more to come.

 

Lots of Weeklies... in response to Daily missions. But let's look at that. Sure, there were more weeklies. But those weeklies were legacy one-off missions that, if you wanted to do with any character other than a selected conquest character you would have to schedule playtime for that/them around the conquest character.

 

As I mentioned during that week, I had a character sitting at command level 293 all week because I couldn't do those weeklies until after I had completed them with my conquest character or I would have locked them out of the points. I usually play solo when not playing with my partner (who hasn't been able to play much at all lately for having to care for her grandmother). But when I do play solo, I don't do conquest objectives and I shouldn't have to restrict my game activities on any of my other characters because playing them would interfere with my conquest character(s).

 

Where I used to play 15-20 hours a week, I'm down to 8-10 hours a week because of that nonsense. How's that for playing the way they intend us to play? I guess choices really do matter now. Pay to play their way or find a game where we can pay to play our own way. We pay $15 a month for entertainment. We don't pay $15 a month to do digital chores, which is all this new system is. Especially with the piddly amount of points we get for daily repeatables.

Edited April 11, 2018 by PorsaLindahl

[IzumiCurtis]

I took one look at the objectives for Flashpoint Havoc (this week's Conquest) and went 'NOPE'. So, uh, thanks for giving me time to do other things in game since the last three Conquests required me to spend basically the entire time grinding to get it on 1-3 toons?

[PorsaLindahl]

Here's a bigger irony; there's still people out there who claim to be gamers but who understand so little about games and gamers that they still think "difficult" = "grindy as hell".

 

Unfortunately for SWTOR players the Bioware Devs seem to be firmly entrenched among that group.

 

 

All The Best

Today's "gamers."

 

It's a bit dated, but there's a little known game out there called Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted, that was originally released as Horizons. It came out 13 months before WoW. Today's "gamers", in fact "gamers" of the last decade probably wouldn't last more than a few hours playing that game because it would be too difficult for them.

 

You start with very basic gear and while you may be rewarded with some decent gear, the best stuff, other than end-game rares, are crafted items. You can do any/all craft schools and any/all adventure schools all on one character.

 

The game has death penalties for dying (lowering your stats for a time) and the duration and debuffs compound if you die while still under death penalty. And it won't go away by logging out for the time limit. I can image all the "screw that game" mutterings already.

 

Something that strikes me as funny is for the last 11 years they've been running that game with only 6 people working on it part-time, and they have constant updates to the game. The lead dev even pops into the game to talk to people at least once a week. If someone finds a minor bug and lets him know while he's in-game, he's been known to make the correction on the spot if it's not a major issue that requires a full restart - if not, then it's usually fixed with the next maintenance. Of course he's also been known to spawn a world boss type mob on people for razzing him.

[Stellarcrusade]

Today's "gamers."

 

It's a bit dated, but there's a little known game out there called Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted, that was originally released as Horizons. It came out 13 months before WoW. Today's "gamers", in fact "gamers" of the last decade probably wouldn't last more than a few hours playing that game because it would be too difficult for them.

 

You start with very basic gear and while you may be rewarded with some decent gear, the best stuff, other than end-game rares, are crafted items. You can do any/all craft schools and any/all adventure schools all on one character.

 

The game has death penalties for dying (lowering your stats for a time) and the duration and debuffs compound if you die while still under death penalty. And it won't go away by logging out for the time limit. I can image all the "screw that game" mutterings already.

 

Something that strikes me as funny is for the last 11 years they've been running that game with only 6 people working on it part-time, and they have constant updates to the game. The lead dev even pops into the game to talk to people at least once a week. If someone finds a minor bug and lets him know while he's in-game, he's been known to make the correction on the spot if it's not a major issue that requires a full restart - if not, then it's usually fixed with the next maintenance. Of course he's also been known to spawn a world boss type mob on people for razzing him.

 

Ah the good old days of hardcore gaming. Bring back the MMOs that is ALL world PvP and when you die the enemy loots ALL your possesions and you lose 1/3 of your experience points (yes, you lose levels). That was an adrenaline rush, today's games are fine for snowflakes, but snowflakes wouldn't have lasted 1 minute in the _real_ days of gaming.

[KendraP]

Today's "gamers."

 

It's a bit dated, but there's a little known game out there called Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted, that was originally released as Horizons. It came out 13 months before WoW. Today's "gamers", in fact "gamers" of the last decade probably wouldn't last more than a few hours playing that game because it would be too difficult for them.

 

You start with very basic gear and while you may be rewarded with some decent gear, the best stuff, other than end-game rares, are crafted items. You can do any/all craft schools and any/all adventure schools all on one character.

 

The game has death penalties for dying (lowering your stats for a time) and the duration and debuffs compound if you die while still under death penalty. And it won't go away by logging out for the time limit. I can image all the "screw that game" mutterings already.

 

Something that strikes me as funny is for the last 11 years they've been running that game with only 6 people working on it part-time, and they have constant updates to the game. The lead dev even pops into the game to talk to people at least once a week. If someone finds a minor bug and lets him know while he's in-game, he's been known to make the correction on the spot if it's not a major issue that requires a full restart - if not, then it's usually fixed with the next maintenance. Of course he's also been known to spawn a world boss type mob on people for razzing him.

 

I admit, I'm a bit of a modern era gamer. I came to swtor looking for kotor 3 and got into the mmo side of things gradually (mostly after i finally got bored levelling guardians... i might have a problem).

 

For a game to keep my attention I need plot and character development. I can deal with grind if that is met. But god crafting, I find to be the dullest thing invented. To each his own i guess.

[PennyAnn]

SNIP...

Not knocking anyone that really wants any of that as each to their own, but is any of that stuff vital to the game so the inability to get it on alts is worth quitting over. Does it suddenly mean that people that enjoyed PvP no longer want to PvP cause it doesn't help them get some Jawa junk? Does it suddenly stop heroics from being as much fun as they were previously.

 

To answer you quite simply: Yes. To all of the above.

 

Though most who enjoy repeating these activities to death are still doing so, for a majority of us in this thread, Conquest was the only reason we were doing that. It added a changing element of competition that gave meaning to repeating that content to death. A reason to do so that really had nothing to do with the rewards.

 

The jawa junk is nice, and adds up when you complete conquest on multiple characters. It's a bonus vs. a big prize. The encryptions are used in crafting Nightmare Crystals and are used by guilds for that purpose, in addition to being used to unlock a guild's flagship. Unlocking a flagship is relatively meaningless in terms of what it provides to players in the game (more rooms to decorate or inhabit is basically all that does), but the Nightmare Crystals require 5 of each type (25 total) to craft a single one that disappears if you leave the instance.

 

These are worth, on average anywhere from 200-300k each to players if sold on the GTN. With the crazy economy that isn't much really, except when you can make that on alts. But again, it's a bonus.

 

There are as many reasons that people do conquest as there are people... but to dwindle it down to just being "habit" is kinda insulting. Who are any of us to say why someone plays a game or what enjoyment they should find in the systems developed for that game? For many, it was about competition... fighting to be on the leader board, climbing up the ranks of guilds on a certain planet after making the effort and seeing the results. For others, it was about trying to have what most large guilds come by easily: a fully unlocked guild ship to use in benefit of their guild. For some, it was about providing a framework to their play - when they log in and think "what am I going to do today?" it answered that question with objectives that were easier to just roll with on any character you decided to play that day. Now you do so at the potential detriment of hitting goal on ANY of your characters unless you get points on the "right one".

 

There are a multitude of reasons to play and enjoy conquest under the old system. Just because you don't happen to fit in the category of player that sees the merit of what conquest at least used to be means that it has no merit?

 

.

[PorsaLindahl]

To answer you quite simply: Yes. To all of the above.

 

Though most who enjoy repeating these activities to death are still doing so, for a majority of us in this thread, Conquest was the only reason we were doing that. It added a changing element of competition that gave meaning to repeating that content to death. A reason to do so that really had nothing to do with the rewards.

 

The jawa junk is nice, and adds up when you complete conquest on multiple characters. It's a bonus vs. a big prize. The encryptions are used in crafting Nightmare Crystals and are used by guilds for that purpose, in addition to being used to unlock a guild's flagship. Unlocking a flagship is relatively meaningless in terms of what it provides to players in the game (more rooms to decorate or inhabit is basically all that does), but the Nightmare Crystals require 5 of each type (25 total) to craft a single one that disappears if you leave the instance.

 

These are worth, on average anywhere from 200-300k each to players if sold on the GTN. With the crazy economy that isn't much really, except when you can make that on alts. But again, it's a bonus.

 

There are as many reasons that people do conquest as there are people... but to dwindle it down to just being "habit" is kinda insulting. Who are any of us to say why someone plays a game or what enjoyment they should find in the systems developed for that game? For many, it was about competition... fighting to be on the leader board, climbing up the ranks of guilds on a certain planet after making the effort and seeing the results. For others, it was about trying to have what most large guilds come by easily: a fully unlocked guild ship to use in benefit of their guild. For some, it was about providing a framework to their play - when they log in and think "what am I going to do today?" it answered that question with objectives that were easier to just roll with on any character you decided to play that day. Now you do so at the potential detriment of hitting goal on ANY of your characters unless you get points on the "right one".

 

There are a multitude of reasons to play and enjoy conquest under the old system. Just because you don't happen to fit in the category of player that sees the merit of what conquest at least used to be means that it has no merit?

 

.

 

I think we're being trolled, and not very well. How many ways does he have to ask the same question(s)?

[PennyAnn]

I won't go through all the reasons I think you're wrong...I mean it when I say that there is literally NOTHING better about this new system. NOTHING! It has done nothing but hurt the game. You can find ways to farm it all you like, but it has actively HURT this game...to support it, like you are, is supporting damaging our diminishing player base.

 

At the end of the day, a lot of the opinion about the new conquest is just opinion. But what is not opinion is that it has been overwhelmingly receiving negative feedback here, and a very small handful of individuals have had anything good to say about it. Even in the microcosm of the game that is the forums, it is lopsided in favor of "I hate it", "I'm not participating until this is fixed/changed", and in a lot of cases "The older system was better, revert to the older system" or even "I have cancelled my sub over this". I agree with TUX on this part - it is actively hurting the game.

 

Playing devil's advocate means you are advocating for what you admittedly call the devil. You don't really need me to explain to you why that will see you receiving push-back from those who absolutely are not in support of the devil. In this case, the devil = A changed conquest system that isn't even meeting the goals as stated by the developers who created and released it into the game. I don't consider the developers themselves devils, insulting them has never been something I've found any merit in and is usually just frustration talking. But this system, please know, IS the devil that we are currently fighting to send back to the depths of hell.

 

Now, it is clear that the forums represent a small portion of the player base, especially those that regularly post here. But I've seen people posting about how much they hate conquest that I have never seen post here before. Or that claim this is the first time they have posted here. I have checked the posting history of some of those people who I have never seen around here before, but that make pretty good (and reasoned) arguments about why conquest is not enjoyable anymore. And you know what? There are a ton of people who have never had reason to post here before that are unhappy about conquest enough to come do so! That says a lot to me! People who are happy playing the game do not post here, they are off happily playing the game.

 

That so many people are unhappy enough to come here and post about it, some for the very first time, and expand the usual "microcosm" of players to include so many more people is reason enough that you might want to reconsider defending what is obviously harming player morale and the game at large. Sometimes, the devil doesn't deserve an advocate. I won't try to tell you what to do here, because you have every right to post here just like anybody else (so long as you follow the rules). And I see what you're trying to do, but I don't think it serves to do anything but enrage those who are already enraged, or cause those of us capable of rational discourse to wonder, "Why is this guy defending such a broken system that is actively hurting a game we all love?".

 

If I could see a clear design goal being met by the developers, it would at least make a little more sense. But I see none. I only see unhappy people playing the game less and less, to the point of unsubscribing. I see myself even wavering, and I was gonna be here until the lights went out no matter what. It takes a pretty serious negative change to the base game for me to push me to this type of consideration. But here it is.

 

 

This is not sarcasm, thank you to both Tux and Masterceil for elevating the debate based on concrete, substantive issues.

 

What I'm about to say is undoubtedly selfish, since we all view the game through our own personal lens. Before I do, though, I give kudo points to Masterceil (like s/he cares but nonetheless, I rarely compliment people)...but (isn't there always a but)...

 

Masterceil, you can frame it 9 vs. 6, but the categories you evaluate should not be weighed equally. You openly acknowledge that the new system discourages the playing of alts.

 

For me at least, that is the central issue. Sometimes, even tanks and healers want to let off steam and just pew pew pew.

 

As Joonbeams has articulately noted, ditto Toraakk (spelling?), as well as many others including the FABULOUS moi, this has unintended consequences and ripple effects. Meaning, less PuGs happening across the board -- though in full disclosure -- I can't say that for GSF since I've never tried it.

 

You raise good points Masterceil, but each benefit vs. each negative are not all equal. As PennyAnn noted eloquently in several threads -- when all is said and done -- it is not clear that the new system even achieves its supposed goals.

 

In the end, the new conquest system discourages people playing. That's a bad thing.

 

Dasty

 

Well said, as always. No matter what they do, no matter what defense they receive from devil's advocates here, when anything they do to the game = less people playing or discouraging people to play... it only harms the game.

 

To be okay with the way the new conquest system works is to be okay with the fact that it is harming the game by diminishing the population. I won't go so far as to say that it will "kill the game" because I don't think that it necessarily will. At least not immediately. But how long are the people who don't care about conquest at all willing to wait for a GSF or PvP or Group Finder queue? How long before the diminished population playing the game due to the conquest changes starts having enough effect that they are playing less of this game, too?

 

And all for a system that no one even really understands WHY it was changed to be this way in the first place. The stated goals + the implementation do not add up to anything that makes any sense. If they wanted us to play alts less, why aren't they saying so? Did they really think too many people were receiving the rewards that many in these threads have called "worthless" in trying to understand why anyone is upset with the new system being less rewarding? Were we getting too much jawa junk? Was it causing an imbalance in the game's economy to have an individual be able to get 5 or 6 sets (or more) of those rewards? If the points on the board were so high that no one could catch up to certain guilds, why is it better to make it so that no one but them can even get to those threshholds?

 

It just all makes absolutely no sense. And no matter who defends it here, until the developers address the disparity in the stated goals and the implementation, we are going to continue to scratch our heads and quit playing the game as much, or at all. No bueno.

 

.

[PennyAnn]

I think we're being trolled, and not very well. How many ways does he have to ask the same question(s)?

 

Probably as many ways as he needs to until he understands the answers? But who knows how long that will take!