Leave murader alone buff other melee classes

[RACATW]

It shouldn't be a surprise that those who still play group ranked competitively have a vested interest in balancing classes within the context of a competitive team composition. There's a wealth of misinformation and bad ideas on this forum formed from myopic experiences, detached entirely from the context of players using their classes at the top level. There's an off chance that someone who matters might read this thread, so debates are had and ideas shared.

 

It's easy to sit back and not have thoughtful opinions around team balance when you play the game to sap cap randoms in civil war and stream meme 1v1 tournaments. You have no stake in balance, because balance doesn't affect you.

 

I think they call that #influencing?

 

Ok using acid strats is playing at the top level? Lol

[EnzoForMe]

Ok using acid strats is playing at the top level? Lol

 

I've run hardswaps since 8v8 ranked.. In 4s, matches are typically won around the 2-2.5 minute mark, if the game goes to acid (which is rare) we didn't execute the strategy correctly.

 

The exception being when teams with otherwise respectable players have run double tank/healer or 4 stealth comps into us as an act of capitulation and failed trolling, which has happened numerous times this season. Not that we've lost to it, it just draws things out.

 

You didn't deserve a reply to that but considering how much I hate real teams running "acid stratz" I felt compelled to.

Edited January 18, 2018 by EnzoForMe

[EnzoForMe]

What would you nerf? And why do you think Maras need nerfs before Sniper and Merc?

 

And have you considered that the meta would be improved instead by buffs to sorc dps and sins and nerfs to sniper/merc defensives?

 

Marauders may seem scary to someone playing the weakest class in the game right now, but they are comically shut down and **** on by sniper+merc comps, which are ludicrously overplayed.

 

This is an example of the misinformation that I'm speaking about. Merc dps are bottom tier in both pressure and hard swap set-ups. They are far too easy to shut down and their dps output is pathetic in a team composition environment. After the surge nerf & DCD nerfs Mercs were no longer a threat, except in solo ranked and that's not the format to balance around.

 

No one plays sniper + merc comps unless they are farming for mats. But you and the 3 sniper + merc healer guy should definitely form a team.

Edited January 18, 2018 by EnzoForMe

[RACATW]

I've run hardswaps since 8v8 ranked.. In 4s, matches are typically won around the 2-2.5 minute mark, if the game goes to acid (which is rare) we didn't execute the strategy correctly.

 

The exception being when teams with otherwise respectable players have run double tank/healer or 4 stealth comps into us as an act of capitulation and failed trolling, which has happened numerous times this season.

 

You didn't deserve a reply to that but considering how much I hate real teams running "acid stratz" I felt compelled to.

 

The thing is dueling is playing at the top level. The most skilled player doesnt have to carry anyone except themself and has nobody else to blame if they lose.

 

Lower levels are team based as it is more based on teamwork than individual skill.

[EnzoForMe]

The thing is dueling is playing at the top level. The most skilled player doesnt have to carry anyone except themself and has nobody else to blame if they lose.

 

Lower levels are team based as it is more based on teamwork than individual skill.

 

You just pivoted from your random acid strats comment to this? 4 players operating as a synergized unit can execute strategies far beyond the predictable nature of 1v1 duels.

 

1v1s involve knowing your DCDs, knowing your opponents DCDs, knowing when to time your stuns, and depending on the format, cheesing LOS mechanics. Add in a bit of luck because TTK is so low where your crits fall and relics proc matter more.

 

These are a pre-req for group ranked, and the best teams do far more ontop of this.

 

Dueling requires skill, sure, just as boxing does. But there's a reason the most popular competitive sports are team-based. Football, baseball, soccer, hockey, basketball, etc. etc. offer far more strategic variety and possibilities than boxing because a high-performing team has far more capability than a single high-performing individual.

Edited January 18, 2018 by EnzoForMe

[RACATW]

You just pivoted from your random acid strats comment to this? 4 players operating as a synergized unit can execute strategies far beyond the predictable nature of 1v1 duels.

 

1v1s involve knowing your DCDs, knowing your opponents DCDs, knowing when to time your stuns, and depending on the format, cheesing LOS mechanics. Add in a bit of luck because TTK is so low where your crits fall and relics proc matter more.

 

These are a pre-req for group ranked, and the best teams do far more ontop of this.

 

Dueling requires skill, sure, just as boxing does. But there's a reason the most popular competitive sports are team-based. Football, baseball, soccer, hockey, basketball, etc. etc. offer far more strategic variety and possibilities than boxing because a high-performing team has far more capability than a single high-performing individual.

 

You seem to have a short memory. You were suggesting acid strats are a counter to snipers.

 

Teams are social, but fighting sports are generally 1v1. As that determines skill better and is top level for fighting (MMA, boxing,muay thai fights etc)

Edited January 18, 2018 by RACATW

[EnzoForMe]

You seem to have a short memory. You were suggesting acid strats are a counter to snipers.

 

 

No, I didn't. Acid stratz aren't a counter to anything except developing as a player. They may prolong games but I haven't lost in seasons against double tank, double tank/double healer, 4 stealth minesweeper comps, etc.

 

Post whatever reading comprehension fail you want next. Beyond this point, I'm not wasting my time.

[Mannok]

12345 Edited January 25, 2018 by Mannok

[yellow_]

Snipers is the only ranged class, that has been allowed to keep Burst/Spiked damage because of "pure dps" classification. That Burst/Spiked damage Sorcs and Mercs had to lose or forever be the root of survival buffs, to all other classes. Snipers due to CC immunity are with DCDs 2nd to no one, in terms of being tanky (with basicly no counter in entire game).

I'm open to adjustments to snipers but I really don't see how the damage of the burst spec (marksman) is a problem. It's a ranged turret spec that parses like garbage - if you don't coordinate that admittedly top tier burst it will either not get kills quickly or not at all. It seems to me that the only sniper spec that is painfully good offensively is engineering (sometimes), as a sufficiently good engineering sniper can make playing any double melee comp that is not double marauder a suicide mission. Sink is the best example here - playing double melee into him feels almost pointless.

 

Snipers definitely have a counter: other snipers. That is awkward, I admit. Snipers are also vulnerable to set plays on them but this requires coordination most teams don't have or aren't trying for.

 

It shouldn't be a surprise that those who still play group ranked competitively have a vested interest in balancing classes within the context of a competitive team composition. There's a wealth of misinformation and bad ideas on this forum formed from myopic experiences, detached entirely from the context of players using their classes at the top level. There's an off chance that someone who matters might read this thread, so debates are had and ideas shared.

 

It's easy to sit back and not have thoughtful opinions around team balance when you play the game to sap cap randoms in civil war and stream meme 1v1 tournaments. You have no stake in competitive balance, because it doesn't affect you.

 

I think they call that #influencing?

The important thing is that he found a way to feel superior to both parties. Edited January 18, 2018 by yellow_

[Elusive_Thing]

cheesy comps

None of that during the golden age of 8-man ranked, that's for sure. No meta then was adhered to the vast majority of the time, no sir.

 

Why can we not change everything at the same time?

 

It's blatantly obvious that once Mercs and Snipers are out of the picture Marauder in its current stat would rise head and shoulders above the rest. We should tackle that before it becomes a problem. Not after.

Naah, everything must happen in a vacuum. On top of that, it's all or nothing, BW cannot make moderate changes, so obviously Marauder must be either as it is now or it must be made completely unplayable. [/sarcasm]

[Evolixe]

I'm open to adjustments to snipers but I really don't see how the damage of the burst spec (marksman) is a problem. It's a ranged turret spec that parses like garbage - if you don't coordinate that admittedly top tier burst it will either not get kills quickly or not at all. It seems to me that the only sniper spec that is painfully good offensively is engineering (sometimes), as a sufficiently good engineering sniper can make playing any double melee comp that is not double marauder a suicide mission. Sink is the best example here - playing double melee into him feels almost pointless.

 

Snipers definitely have a counter: other snipers. That is awkward, I admit. Snipers are also vulnerable to set plays on them but this requires coordination most teams don't have or aren't trying for.

 

The important thing is that he found a way to feel superior to both parties.

 

A class only counter being a mirror is an inherent design problem that should be adressed.

 

I mean seriously, ehat do you think would happen if Assassins could somehow shut down any combination of a double ranged comp with double sniper being the only como that would even have to bother?

 

Because that would be literally the same situation, just turned backwards.

[Mannok]

12345 Edited January 25, 2018 by Mannok

[snave]

It shouldn't be a surprise that those who still play group ranked competitively have a vested interest in balancing classes within the context of a competitive team composition.

 

No idea where you get the idea I'm not interested in balancing classes. During both my interviews with Musco, matchmaking and class changes took up the lions share of my time, I talk about it on every stream and I send focused feedback where applicable.

 

There's a wealth of misinformation and bad ideas on this forum formed from myopic experiences, detached entirely from the context of players using their classes at the top level.

 

thatsthejoke.jpg

 

There's an off chance that someone who matters might read this thread, so debates are had and ideas shared.

 

If sending constructive feedback was your main priority there are far more direct and effective ways but yeah, maybe nerf mara thread number 143 this week with the same arguments and bickering as the previous 142 will be the one that catches their eye.

 

It's easy to sit back and not have thoughtful opinions around team balance when you play the game to sap cap randoms in civil war and stream meme 1v1 tournaments.

 

It's easy to create multiple threads talking about the same points on the same classes with the same people carrying out the same circle jerk to people they agree with. That's why this copy of the other thread is now 17 pages long.

 

I do feel upset that you call the illustrious URC tournament a meme though, I thought after the great boycotting of '17 we'd gone legit. It's ok, I'm sure you weren't trying to be rude and there's no need to apologise.

 

Taffs is hosting a tournament at the end of the month, hopefully, I can steal some non meme ideas from that for my next one but please feel free to PM me with any ideas on how the format could be improved.

 

You have no stake in competitive balance, because it doesn't affect you.

 

Fortunately, I'm able to take things that don't affect me into consideration. It's a pretty neat trick they try and teach you when you're about 3 in the UK. Or you could just try some good old fashioned empathy, not sure if those skills increase your DPS though so probably not worth looking in to.

 

I think they call that #influencing?

 

I'm not really sure what you were going for with this sorry, but the # makes it look cool so well done.

[Evolixe]

If sending constructive feedback was your main priority there are far more direct and effective ways but yeah, maybe nerf mara thread number 143 this week with the same arguments and bickering as the previous 142 will be the one that catches their eye.

 

I've had the privilege of trying many different ways of providing feedback, and while some certainly receive more attention than others.. I'm not so sure about the "effective" part of that argument

[EnzoForMe]

No idea where you get the idea I'm not interested in balancing classes. During both my interviews with Musco, matchmaking and class changes took up the lions share of my time, I talk about it on every stream and I send focused feedback where applicable.

 

Your opinion on class balance is about as valuable as the average pvp forum goer. I don't care how many people tune into your stream, you haven't accomplished anything in competitive pvp. Not in 8s, not in 4s, not in solos.... and you've been around forever. This isn't some set-up to the inevitable getalifebruh, game's been out for what.... 7 years? That's a long time to do a whole lot of nothing. If you want to keep it casual that's completely fine, but you lose the ability to have informed and meaningful opinions on class balance. You can't have both.

 

If sending constructive feedback was your main priority there are far more direct and effective ways but yeah, maybe nerf mara thread number 143 this week with the same arguments and bickering as the previous 142 will be the one that catches their eye. It's easy to create multiple threads talking about the same points on the same classes with the same people carrying out the same circle jerk to people they agree with. That's why this copy of the other thread is now 17 pages long.

 

This is an internet forum, where people discuss things. Not a new concept, iterations lead to debate and maybe understanding.

 

I do feel upset that you call the illustrious URC tournament a meme though, I thought after the great boycotting of '17 we'd gone legit. It's ok, I'm sure you weren't trying to be rude and there's no need to apologise.

 

Taffs is hosting a tournament at the end of the month, hopefully, I can steal some non meme ideas from that for my next one but please feel free to PM me with any ideas on how the format could be improved.

 

I don't know how much clearer I can be about this, but team-based play is what interests me. The "great boycotting of '17"? I didn't play for the majority of 2017 (4s was dead, why bother?) but I do know the N/A players skipped your "illustrious" tournament without giving you a heads up so I can see why'd you still be salty about that.

 

I tuned into your stream for a few minutes one time and you talked about Americans living in the "school shooting timezone'. Doesn't even bother me but showed me the quality of the streamer, nothing all that interesting but I'm sure the lowest common denominator probably liked the joke.jpg or w/e you called it.

 

Fortunately, I'm able to take things that don't affect me into consideration. It's a pretty neat trick they try and teach you when you're about 3 in the UK. Or you could just try some good old fashioned empathy, not sure if those skills increase your DPS though so probably not worth looking in to.

 

Bizarre comment. Rule Britannia!.... I guess?

Edited January 19, 2018 by EnzoForMe

[snave]

Your opinion on class balance is about as valuable as the average pvp forum goer. I don't care how many people tune into your stream, you haven't accomplished anything in competitive pvp. Not in 8s, not in 4s, not in solos.... and you've been around forever. This isn't some set-up to the inevitable getalifebruh, game's been out for what.... 7 years? That's a long time to do a whole lot of nothing. If you want to keep it casual that's completely fine, but you lose the ability to have informed and meaningful opinions on class balance. You can't have both.

 

This is factually inaccurate but from reading the rest of your comment I'm just going to go ahead and assume you know nothing about me and are just filling in the blanks yourself / following what other people have told you.

 

It also falls in to somewhat of a fallacy where you clearly lay out that the only people you deem qualified to give an opinion are ones who meet your criteria, while you yourself have no criteria set as to what makes your opinion correct on the matter. At best you're falling for the old appeal to authority stance based on game rating but you can look at almost any game and see that the designers/decision makers are rarely amongst the top players.

 

By your logic no one is qualified to be an NFL coach unless they've won a Superbowl, F1 drivers should replace engineers in designing cars because those nerds can't drive, and how dare you be a boxing coach unless you yourself were a world champion.

 

The ability to design and the ability to implement are not the same things. I'm not even saying that I'm the most qualified person to give feedback on balance. The multiple times I've affected change in the game was more from a collaborative effort and from gathering feedback from skilled players. The fact I have to even explain this to you is somewhat disconcerting.

 

This is an internet forum, where people discuss things. Not a new concept, iterations lead to debate and maybe understanding.

 

None of that has happened on any of the multiple threads made on this topic. They've all started badly, got worse, then get repeated on a new thread. I was just making a stupid joke about it, I love reading these threads. Honestly, I find them hilarious. I don't really want to comment on this so much anymore because I feel like I'm complicating the flow of the conversation but please feel free to PM me anything you feel like talking about.

 

I don't know how much clearer I can be about this, but team-based play is what interests me. The "great boycotting of '17"? I didn't play for the majority of 2017 (4s was dead, why bother?) but I do know the N/A players skipped your "illustrious" tournament without giving you a heads up so I can see why'd you still be salty about that.

 

That's cool mate, a team-based game is what interests me too. I prefer 8 man objective orientated gameplay and you prefer 4 man arena style. I've not had a go at you for liking that game mode or avoiding other modes, play however you want.

 

The boycott comment I thought was very clearly tongue in cheek but it seems we're having a hard time getting on the same wavelength so I'll try and be more literal in my comments to try and avoid further confusion. But, like I said previously, no need to apologise buddy it's all good. URC is fun, I normally enjoy hosting them and hope that some more players start to run their own this year. I don't really want to get into whether it's a true test of skill or whatever else it is you're edging at but like I said, feel free to PM me with any suggestions for improvements you have.

 

I tuned into your stream for a few minutes one time and you talked about Americans living in the "school shooting timezone'. Doesn't even bother me but showed me the quality of the streamer, nothing all that interesting but I'm sure the lowest common denominator probably liked the joke.jpg or w/e you called it.

 

I don't know anything about you really. You play sniper and I thought your name was capri sun, that's about it. I'm not going to try and pretend I know you or mention your character as a person because that would obviously be stupid. It seems that whatever I said did have a negative impact on you but you made the correct decision of walking away from content you didn't enjoy.

 

To be honest, I don't even know why we're even talking about my stream in the context of this thread but if anyone reading this is interested in watching a person some guy on the forum didn't like after 2 minutes I'm live Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays from around 4 pm GMT.

 

It's a shame you didn't stick around for 10 minutes longer on my stream, I'm sure you'd have way more examples of stupid stuff I said to use against me and If you'd like me to explain the joke I made originally I'd be happy to oblige, humour is a subjective thing after all.

 

Bizarre comment. Rule Britannia!.... I guess?

 

Yeah mate, you did that whole #influencing thing and I had no idea what you were hashtagging about. I have no idea what you're talking about here either. Like I said earlier, I have no interest in derailing this thread any further, Exilove seems to be making many good points again (although to be honest I liked his replies in the previous thread because they're the same) but please don't hesitate to PM me if I've not explained myself very well so I can further clarify.

 

I've had the privilege of trying many different ways of providing feedback, and while some certainly receive more attention than others.. I'm not so sure about the "effective" part of that argument

 

Not all suggestions will be acted upon or even listened to but I've found after repeating the same points 3 times a week over and over some are starting to sneak into the game. I was very disappointed playtesting wasn't carried out on the new map, few small changes could have made it much more dynamic in my opinion. After we tested Odessan and they implement much of my suggested changes I had high hopes but unfortunately, this feels like another wasted opportunity.

 

Ideally, I'd like to see them implement something like the old class rep system (op rep best rep) but with some obvious tweaks. Having a figurehead to funnel ideas through and them handing off a distilled version is fundamentally sound, especially for a game with a pretty bad track record on balance.

 

I'm not sure what your SR and TR ratings are though mate so your feedback might be invalid.

[SlimeyDoom]

Caprica u better watch your mouth cause when they add offnodes into group ranked LOL snave is gonna nuke you:cool::cool::cool:

[zhradik]

nerf maras and snipers and mercs

 

or buff other classes

 

but BW never does it like this

[Mannok]

12345 Edited January 25, 2018 by Mannok

[EnzoForMe]

This is factually inaccurate but from reading the rest of your comment I'm just going to go ahead and assume you know nothing about me and are just filling in the blanks yourself / following what other people have told you

 

Nope, it's pretty accurate. No reputable 8s team, no 4s team, no leading in solo ranked. That about fits the bill.

 

The ability to design and the ability to implement are not the same things. I'm not even saying that I'm the most qualified person to give feedback on balance. The multiple times I've affected change in the game was more from a collaborative effort and from gathering feedback from skilled players. The fact I have to even explain this to you is somewhat disconcerting.

 

We can definitely agree that you are not the most qualified person to give feedback on balance. And without pointing to specific changes you've brought about, this seems more like a humblebrag and not all that interesting. Especially because so many of the "changes" made are so poorly thought out.

 

Maybe you can also start a collaborative effort to become a good ranked player so you can have your own informed thoughts and opinions and not siphon ideas from your mates without any context of what's good from what's hot garbage.

 

 

That's cool mate, a team-based game is what interests me too. I prefer 8 man objective orientated gameplay and you prefer 4 man arena style. I've not had a go at you for liking that game mode or avoiding other modes, play however you want.

 

When 8v8 ranked was a thing I played it almost exclusively. I didn't "avoid" anything. 8v8s were a blast at level 50 cap, I have three Warzone Annihilator titles but aside from Huttball, the format was broken and 4s is what we have now.

 

At level 55 warzones were no longer able to support competitive team play, TTK and mobility had broken most maps except huttball.

 

Setting up perfect hardswaps or overloading your enemy with pure pressure damage is a far better show of skill than hoping your combat sentinel popped transcendence fast enough to cap the off node in civil war, right before a 30 minute snooze fest. That's what competitive 8v8 ranked was at level 55, I was there.

 

Let's be real: you don't enjoy team-based play. You enjoy a casual experience fighting a disorganized mob where it's safe to make rookie mistakes and the shockingly low skill level in regs makes you look half decent at the game. The vast majority of regs not called Huttball devolve into death match around a node - objectives are an illusion and if you haven't figured that out in 7 years I don't know what to tell you.

 

The boycott comment I thought was very clearly tongue in cheek but it seems we're having a hard time getting on the same wavelength so I'll try and be more literal in my comments to try and avoid further confusion. But, like I said previously, no need to apologise buddy it's all good. URC is fun, I normally enjoy hosting them and hope that some more players start to run their own this year. I don't really want to get into whether it's a true test of skill or whatever else it is you're edging at but like I said, feel free to PM me with any suggestions for improvements you have.

 

I'm done talking about dueling. I could not be any less interested in offering feedback to an irrelevant distraction but I hope you and your mates have a good time.

 

I don't know anything about you really. You play sniper and I thought your name was capri sun, that's about it. I'm not going to try and pretend I know you or mention your character as a person because that would obviously be stupid. It seems that whatever I said did have a negative impact on you but you made the correct decision of walking away from content you didn't enjoy.

 

I mean if you don't play group ranked or solo ranked at above the 1500 level you won't be seeing me. It's kind of hard to miss one of the two players in swtor that has every top 3 title on a class in a combination of solo ranked and group ranked + WZA unless you simply aren't involved with that part of the game.

 

Even if you don't care about titles (win trading q syncing etc etc etc) I've played thousands of group and solo ranked matches. You can't be exposed to what you don't experience. And qing from time to time at the 1500 rr level is not what I'm talking about.

 

It's a shame you didn't stick around for 10 minutes longer on my stream, I'm sure you'd have way more examples of stupid stuff I said to use against me and If you'd like me to explain the joke I made originally I'd be happy to oblige, humour is a subjective thing after all.

 

I prefer using my time in swtor to build top ranked teams & strategies, play with/against the best players and setting up perfectly synergized hardswaps, not tooling around on some guy's regular warzone stream. A few minutes was quite enough. You can keep your boring jokes and like dueling, I'm also done talking about your stream.

 

Not all suggestions will be acted upon or even listened to but I've found after repeating the same points 3 times a week over and over some are starting to sneak into the game. I was very disappointed playtesting wasn't carried out on the new map, few small changes could have made it much more dynamic in my opinion. After we tested Odessan and they implement much of my suggested changes I had high hopes but unfortunately, this feels like another wasted opportunity.

 

I wouldn't hang the warzone that everyone leaves, Odessen, on your hat as an accomplishment. Though that buff under Yavin Ruins probably helps you land more stealth caps so that time wasted giving token feedback wasn't completely for naught.

 

Ideally, I'd like to see them implement something like the old class rep system (op rep best rep) but with some obvious tweaks. Having a figurehead to funnel ideas through and them handing off a distilled version is fundamentally sound, especially for a game with a pretty bad track record on balance.

 

It's taken you three massive posts to get to anything resembling a suggestion. I guess that's progress.

 

The class rep system was a complete joke (Shinrika for shadow rep lmao) held out as a "community engagement" activity without any substance or integrity behind it whatsoever. The community devs seem like nice guys but they have no track record of listening to the right people in pvp

 

You know what's funny though? The PvE developers are better at interacting with the the top PvE teams and implementing changes based on that. The teams that are invited to test are those that have cleared all of the most challenging content.

 

They, like top ranked players, are the "implementors" , the doers, the people that know what they're talking about and don't need to form a quorum of their buddies to know whether or not a mechanic or cooldown is broken or unbalanced.

 

And as that brings us full-circle, my part in this exchange has concluded.

Edited January 19, 2018 by EnzoForMe

[Evolixe]

Eh I don't know what anyone has told you about the PvE playtesting thing but that's hardly all sugar and spice either.

 

It IS better, though.

[EnzoForMe]

Eh I don't know what anyone has told you about the PvE playtesting thing but that's hardly all sugar and spice either.

 

It IS better, though.

 

Of course, my main point was the playerpool they primarily draw from is correct- the teams that clear the most challenging content. For whatever reason they took a different approach with pvp. I have heard some pretty cool stories though from friends that are operation playtesters with the operation PvE dev (his name is escaping me) and his personal interactions with them in-game.

Edited January 19, 2018 by EnzoForMe

[Evolixe]

Matt, yeah he's a cool guy

 

I dont think they took a different approach for pvp though.

 

I really feel like its more that they took no approach at all and are just trying to wing it.

[supertimtaf]

Matt, yeah he's a cool guy

 

I dont think they took a different approach for pvp though.

 

I really feel like its more that they took no approach at all and are just trying to wing it.

 

Probably because they don't have anybody else to work on PvP, nor class balance. When looking at the delay for the last ranked season, as well as all the imbalance or error that they couldn't figure out (lul, «carnage only has two ability in his precision window») I think that those matters are some «last minute changes» rather than the product of some long work. All of this feels like a big joke, an unfinished work made by the bad student of a class, trying to make you believe that he did his homework

 

As for the PvP playtesting, please we all know it's just a legend. Otherwise the insta-death bug on Rishi arena would be fixed since day one, for example.

[Mannok]

12345 Edited January 25, 2018 by Mannok