Nerf marauder damage

[EnzoForMe]

marksmanship main detected

 

Dead on, although to be fair Doc, I’m usually the one getting pacified in a 4s match. So not like I’m doing much during the window anyway. But if snipers get an aoe diversion, I’m fine with maras getting pacify even though it really messes with marks.

Edited January 5, 2018 by EnzoForMe

[Savej]

As Doc mentioned, this thread is indicative of the problems with this pvp forum: 99% of the board is people ****posting their views developed from playing regs or at the 1300 rr level in ranked. I could show you plenty of screenshots where I double the damage of the enemy team combined while playing OBJs in marksman or fury spec. I don’t because the skill level in regs is so pathetically low that no one cares, least of all me.

 

Maras are a top 2 ranked spec with snipers in both solo and group ranked. The former due to strong Dcds that make them the hardest non-tank class to focus in 4s due to low CD on camo, ruthless aggressor, undying rage, cloak of pain, and blood ward. Fury spec with its extra leap, 6 seconds of cc immunity every 30 seconds, and (too) high sustained/burst makes it an apex spec against virtually every comp unless you are one of the (literally) <10 people in the game across all classes that can play swaps at the highest level in which case carnage is still BiS.

 

Fury’s damage is overperforming in both pve and pvp, so a nerf is on the horizon to its damage (or reallocating it to aoe damage). Ruthless aggressor doesn’t bother me as much as it does others on the board though I recognize it is strong. Lowering the duration of force cloak (you can’t increase the CD unless you give maras a different threat dump in pve) would help focus maras in 4s.

 

Just hope with the inevitable nerf to fury that they don’t take annihlation and (for a second time) carnage down with them.

 

When you say maras are "overperforming" in ranked, what leaderboards/numbers/data are you referring to? Looking at solos right now they are underperforming (slightly).

[EnzoForMe]

When you say maras are "overperforming" in ranked, what leaderboards/numbers/data are you referring to? Looking at solos right now they are underperforming (slightly).

 

The leaderboards haven’t been updated in over a month at this point.

 

I base my views on playing with/against the best teams in group ranked this season and seeing a Mara in every comp, and why they’re in every comp based on damage and utility.

 

Rating in group ranked is precarious- there’s plenty of players that have around 1.8-2k this season because they farmed mat teams throughout the season and continually dodge the top teams or hop to alts when they play the top teams.

Edited January 5, 2018 by EnzoForMe

[yellow_]

When you say maras are "overperforming" in ranked, what leaderboards/numbers/data are you referring to? Looking at solos right now they are underperforming (slightly).

The people playing mara in solos this season are either not especially strong solo players or they're just not playing enough games to push rating. In spite of that the only classes that have better rating than marauders are classes bloated by their heal or tank spec (sorc, sin, juggernaut) and mercenaries. This is quite literally exactly how I would have expected the boards to work.

 

The leaderboards haven’t been updated in over a month at this point.

 

Rating in group ranked is precarious- there’s plenty of garbage players that have around 1.8-2k this season because they farmed mat teams throughout the season and continually dodge the top teams or hop to alts when they play the top teams.

Even with the caveats you mentioned the highest rated group ranked player is still a marauder anyway. Edited January 5, 2018 by yellow_

[DavidAtkinson]

Jeff gets ganked in WZ by a Fury mara with 4 hits and quickly comes to the forums and opens a thread about nerfing their damage.

 

Pt skank tank doing 6.5- 8.k dps per round in arenas isn't a problem, but Fury mara's damage is...

 

Very interesting thread. Gonna come here more often for a good laugh.

 

Yes, I am a mara fanboy. for 2 years now.

Edited January 5, 2018 by DavidAtkinson

[Kaedusz]

I don't have a problem with their damage or their dcds, but their numbers in regs. It's *********** tedious and boring.

[memerobot]

Jeff gets ganked in WZ by a Fury mara with 4 hits and quickly comes to the forums and opens a thread about nerfing their damage.

 

Pt skank tank doing 6.5- 8.k dps per round in arenas isn't a problem, but Fury mara's damage is...

 

Very interesting thread. Gonna come here more often for a good laugh.

 

Yes, I am a mara fanboy. for 2 years now.

 

Well the solution to get rid of dps geared tanks would be bringing Surge and Expertise rating back, honestly.

Nevertheless, Fury is not just OP dps. Its overall compared to the other 2. Stun immunity, ridiculously easy to use, constant auto crit on attacks that deal big damage. You get the point.

Edited January 5, 2018 by memerobot

[Savej]

The leaderboards haven’t been updated in over a month at this point.

 

I base my views on playing with/against the best teams in group ranked this season and seeing a Mara in every comp, and why they’re in every comp based on damage and utility.

 

Rating in group ranked is precarious- there’s plenty of players that have around 1.8-2k this season because they farmed mat teams throughout the season and continually dodge the top teams or hop to alts when they play the top teams.

 

Well, nothing's changed with maras in well over a month...

 

I don't care much about group ranked leaderboards - most or at least many of those have been arranged matches and doing well has more to do with player communication/coordination than just classes. Solos are far from perfect but are more relevant for class balance discussions.

 

It's entirely possible that there are tradeoffs where maras are one of the best dps classes IF they have the right composition and aren't so good at all without it. I don't think that's a good reason to nerf them in that case; there are far more/bigger fish to fry as far as game balance is concerned.

[kissingaiur]

Well, nothing's changed with maras in well over a month...

 

I don't care much about group ranked leaderboards - most or at least many of those have been arranged matches and doing well has more to do with player communication/coordination than just classes. Solos are far from perfect but are more relevant for class balance discussions.

 

It's entirely possible that there are tradeoffs where maras are one of the best dps classes IF they have the right composition and aren't so good at all without it. I don't think that's a good reason to nerf them in that case; there are far more/bigger fish to fry as far as game balance is concerned.

 

I think you don’t understand how competitive group ranked works. Right now and (as well for almost every season) if you don’t bring a mara on your team everything else you bring is a downgrade.There is literally NO competition for them in a group ranked spot vs sin dps, op dps, jug dps or pts. Zero. They will all be an extreme downgrade. Verse the best teams in the game if you don’t bring a mara, and they have one, you are in a sever disadvantage and will most likely lose. This is not an exaggeration. In ranked players will always play what will bring them the most success and every serious teams run mara, that says something. It’s not because of comps it’s purely because of how tanky they are with a healer while also producing high damage under large amounts of pressure.

 

Something does need to be done with maras to make other Melee DPS more competitive and one of those things needs to be either removing RA or reworking it so they can’t easily get rotate there dcds so effectively.

Edited January 5, 2018 by kissingaiur

[DiavoIa]

The leaderboards haven’t been updated in over a month at this point.

 

I base my views on playing with/against the best teams in group ranked this season and seeing a Mara in every comp, and why they’re in every comp based on damage and utility.

 

Rating in group ranked is precarious- there’s plenty of players that have around 1.8-2k this season because they farmed mat teams throughout the season and continually dodge the top teams or hop to alts when they play the top teams.

 

Well I'm glad others who play this game (including competitively) agree with me on this about mara DCD's instead of some random girl accusing me of not playing the class (they don't even know me) and L2P when I've been playing 7 years +

[Maegi]

Well I'm glad others who play this game (including competitively) agree with me on this about mara DCD's instead of some random girl accusing me of not playing the class (they don't even know me) and L2P when I've been playing 7 years +

 

I can confirm that being Diavola is not a L2P issue.

[brishae]

I'd say Marauder damage for all 3 specs is fine. It's just the defensive cds that are over the top. Ruthless Aggressor is by far one of the stupidest utilities to come into the game right behind Trauma Regulators.

 

Also. Sniper Evasion back to 3 second duration not 5.

Edited January 6, 2018 by brishae

[TrixxieTriss]

Well the solution to get rid of dps geared tanks would be bringing Surge and Expertise rating back, honestly.

Nevertheless, Fury is not just OP dps. Its overall compared to the other 2. Stun immunity, ridiculously easy to use, constant auto crit on attacks that deal big damage. You get the point.

 

And still, people just don’t get that Mara’s are the only class in the game with no self heals. What ever damage they take, they keep, unless there is a healer.

No other class in the game can say the same. Every other class has some way to heal after they take damage.

If you want to give Mara’s some sort of self heal, then sure, tone down the defence. Personally I don’t want or believe Mara’s need a self heal, it would ruin the class.

[TrixxieTriss]

Ok, i have been pvping a lot recently again and gotta say i am tired of the fotm mara HORDE that appeared from the horizon comparatively recently running towards you Braveheart style with Predation.

 

Not only whole teams become frame rate cancer due to the constant predation spam, but they are also not weak or balanced. They are a bit op. If they weren't there wouldn't be so many of them.

 

1v1 is not an issue, if you are experienced enough, but it becomes super annoying after a while to fight against and along side nothing but maras. The situation is similar to mercs rights after 5.0.

 

I agree, there are too many Mara rerollers who have made the class FOTM. But 90% of them are scrubs. It’s only because they are running in gank squads that their dps looks OP.

If 4 Mara’s burst 25k each on you, you’re probably going to die fast. Just the same as 4 snipers, 4 Juggs, 4 Sins, 4 Mercs, 4 Operative and even 4 PTs.

 

The only problem I see with Mara’s is their FOTM status, which sadly is getting worse because people only see the mob of Mara’s doing well.

I bet if you could get enough people to roll PTs and run in gank squads for 2 weeks, they too would end up being FOTM because people would just see them doing well, but would not take into account that PTs by themselves run at a severe disadvantage in this meta. Once they hit a FOTM status, we would see these types of nerf threads appear.

 

I do agree Fury Mara’s are in a good place and part of the top 4 viable specs for group ranked. It does make sense to have them in a trinity team because they do good dps. But if you remove the healer from that team and the other side has one, then your at a big disadvantage with a Mara because they wear that damage all round and will die if the other team is smart.

I know other classes aren’t as viable in the trinity, but is that the Mara’s fault or Biowares for making those classes less than viable. Ranked has always been this way. People will always use the top 4 perceived classes for ranked because it’s human nature and Bioware can’t balance anything outside of 4 classes at a time.

What needs to happen is some buffs to other classes. Nerfs break classes and make them clunky because they are an after thought. Buffs only require bumping a few percentage points up.

 

Look at where Fury Mara’s were 6 months ago before we had nerfvana. Nobody but a few of us played them. Anyone playing a Mara was using Carnage. Everyone said Carnage was OP, Mercs were OP, Engineering Snipers were OP, and Sorc healers were OP. These were the 4 classes used the most in ranked. Everyone said Fury wasn’t viable, so no one played it. Out of all the classes Fury was basically left unchanged and every class got a nerf, including those who were already underperforming instead of giving them buffs. The nerfs even went as far as making some classes/specs clunky. Look what they did to Carnage and Sins (so I’ve read).

What I don’t understand here is why you don’t just get them to buff some of the classes that need it, instead of trying to tear down a class that is basically balanced. IMO, Bioware should be using them to balance around.

 

After more than 12 months of people telling them that Lightning Sorcs and PTs need help, they’ve done nothing and even nerfed Lightning. We’ve gone a year with skank tanks being a major problem and they’ve done nothing. It took them 10 months to adjust Mercs enough to make them more challenging to play and as soon as they do, all the FOTM scrubs find them too hard and hunt for something else. We had people crying foul of Engineering snipers who were trying to even the field against the Merc horde. Now the snipers have switched to Marksman and people are calling foul because there aren’t as many Mercs about to counter them.

 

It’s a viscous circle of people trying to counter FOTM classes, which then makes their class appear FOTM too because more people start to play them. I think you would find if they hadn’t nerfed Carnage as much as they did, most Mara’s would still be playing it.

 

Lastly, when I say it’s a L2P issue for most people who call for nerfs, it’s not that I dont think they are skilled or good players in the previous meta before changes. It’s because they just won’t learn to adapt, change tactics, change strategy or bother to learn them. People are too ridged and inflexible because they don’t like change. L2P isn’t about actual skill here, it’s about being willing to learn the new meta and adjust from the old one. But people are inherently lazy and it’s easier to just come to forums and ask for nerfs.

[TrixxieTriss]

Dead on, although to be fair Doc, I’m usually the one getting pacified in a 4s match. So not like I’m doing much during the window anyway. But if snipers get an aoe diversion, I’m fine with maras getting pacify even though it really messes with marks.

 

This is a prime example of what I mean by people calling for nerfs based on their spec all of a sudden having some pressure applied.

As an example, if you were to remove Fury Mara’s completely from the game, Marksman snipers would run unchecked and have no viable melee counter class.

Everyone wants their own main class and spec to be the most viable in the game.

Edited January 6, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[KendraP]

Well the solution to get rid of dps geared tanks would be bringing Surge and Expertise rating back, honestly.

Nevertheless, Fury is not just OP dps. Its overall compared to the other 2. Stun immunity, ridiculously easy to use, constant auto crit on attacks that deal big damage. You get the point.

 

the solution to dps geared tanks is to make tank gear contribute to survival

[DiavoIa]

This is a prime example of what I mean by people calling for nerfs based on their spec all of a sudden having some pressure applied.

As an example, if you were to remove Fury Mara’s completely from the game, Marksman snipers would run unchecked and have no viable melee counter class.

Everyone wants their own main class and spec to be the most viable in the game.

 

Trixxie, you're wrong.

[kissingaiur]

This is a prime example of what I mean by people calling for nerfs based on their spec all of a sudden having some pressure applied.

As an example, if you were to remove Fury Mara’s completely from the game, Marksman snipers would run unchecked and have no viable melee counter class.

Everyone wants their own main class and spec to be the most viable in the game.

 

Classes don’t exist in this game to rock,paper,scissors others. That is a misconception and irelevant.

 

The people who “cry” the loudest about how RA needs to be nerfed are majority are the ranked population and players WHO PLAY MARAUDER. Surprise, surprise players can play the same class and still be critical of it.

 

You cannot judge a class solely on regs because regs are for casual pvp. No offense but it’s true. In solo ranked and group ranked classes which have the best dcds/damage are the ones who thrive. That’s why every class in regs is “viable”but the second you step in ranked, there is a strong divide between bad and amazing classes. Go play ranked on a rage jug trixy, your opinion will change on how strong that class is when your being tunneled; if you play mara in ranked you’ll see why people consider it defensively too strong.

Edited January 6, 2018 by kissingaiur

[EnzoForMe]

This is a prime example of what I mean by people calling for nerfs based on their spec all of a sudden having some pressure applied.

As an example, if you were to remove Fury Mara’s completely from the game, Marksman snipers would run unchecked and have no viable melee counter class.

Everyone wants their own main class and spec to be the most viable in the game.

 

The counter to sniper is another sniper, always has been. Pacify is used by all 3 specs, not just fury. Carnage is still BiS for top hardswap group ranked teams, and annihilation can be quite strong in a pressure setup, so I would still be getting pacified either way. Fury is not a counter class to marksman.

 

I said I was fine with pacify and to some extent ruthless aggressor even though it is usually directed at me since sniper's diversion also reduces accuracy on tech attacks (albiet not by 75% but it is AOE) so not sure why you got hung up on that.

 

Force cloak duration needs to be 2 seconds (buffed to 6 if you take the utility for solo ranked) and fury damage needs a flat 300 dps- 500 dps parse nerf with some its single target burst/sustained reallocated to aoe damage via cyclone slash or smash.

 

This will happen because of its position in pve primarily, because it is not fulfilling its AOE damage role. Currently, it is a single target spec AOE weaker than carnage , high single target burst and sustained that is higher than that of annihilation. Whether or not you like it, it will be nerfed. They did a similar nerf to engineering for the same reasons and engineering is the closest corollary spec to fury. Carnage received an 800 dps nerf and is still strongest for hardswaps, so it's not like fury would be removed from the game. I would hope that annihilation & carnage would both receive a small buff at the same time.

Edited January 6, 2018 by EnzoForMe

[Evolixe]

I dont know why anyone would complain about Marauders damage really.

It's their total package that is far and wide. Not the damage.

 

Marauders have too much ****. Just like Mercs.

I think they should be capable of doing the damage they are doing. They just need to lose some consistency.

[kissingaiur]

 

I do agree Fury Mara’s are in a good place and part of the top 4 viable specs for group ranked. It does make sense to have them in a trinity team because they do good dps. But if you remove the healer from that team and the other side has one, then your at a big disadvantage with a Mara because they wear that damage all round and will die if the other team is smart.

 

If you have a healer on your team and the other team does not, the team with the healer is suppose to win. Healers are valued 1.5 a DPS (because it takes 2 DPS to kill a healer ideally within game design). Having no healer and the other team does, is unbalanced at that point. What you just stated proved my point exactly by describing a pure lack matchmaking which is the issue.

 

On the other hand when matches are balanced, you will constantly see maras over performing compared to every other melee class in ranked.

Edited January 6, 2018 by kissingaiur

[TrixxieTriss]

Trixxie, you're wrong.

 

How is what I said in that post wrong? Most people want their own class to perform the best.

[TrixxieTriss]

If you have a healer on your team and the other team does not, the team with the healer is suppose to win. Healers are valued 1.5 a DPS (because it takes 2 DPS to kill a healer ideally within game design). Having no healer and the other team does, is unbalanced at that point. What you just stated proved my point exactly by describing a pure lack matchmaking which is the issue.

 

On the other hand when matches are balanced, you will constantly see maras over performing compared to every other melee class in ranked.

 

I don’t disagree about the healer or matchmaking (which is a whole other issue). What I’m trying to point out and obviously doing badly, is that without a healer, Mara’s eat damage and never get it back. Unlike every other class in the game, which has some way to get health back. People just want to ignore this point like it’s a non issue. But it is an issue that any fulltime Mara knows intermittently and has to know how to deal with it.

 

As for perfoming better than other classes, I agree they perform well, especially over some dps classes that I think a lot of people agree are under perfoming generally, so you can’t really compare those to a Mara. The other 2 classes that seem to be ok in damage and are still perfoming well are snipers and Mercs. Both those classes are still being QQ’d about as well and if you were to remove Fury Maras, those two classes would be the ones people would be complaining about the most, especially snipers because they’d have no melee dps check against them.

 

So how many dps classes do people actually want at the top of the trinity? Probably all of them, which is how it should be. But Bioware have never been able to achieve this in the history of the game. Most of the time we are lucky to get 2 dps, but at the moment we have 3. Of course one has to be at the top, it can’t be helped. People will always want to play that top class, even if it’s balanced to precision. Other people who don’t play that class will always QQ and find fault in anyway they can, even if there isn’t one because their class isn’t the top. It’s human nature.

 

I’m sure you must agree that a “pure dps” class should be at the top of dps damage over a class that can be a hybrid or play another role completely. It’s what Mara’s and snipers are made for. If neither are near or at the top, then there is a problem somewhere. I know you know all classes aren’t designed equal because they have different roles to play. IMO, too many people don’t understand the role of their class,

 

I know from playing for 6 years that there will always be 1-2 classes at the top. This can’t be helped because no balance is perfect. I would hazard a guess that it’s also intentional and that Bioware want 1-2 dps at the top. Someone has to be at the top, nothing is supposed to be even if you look at the way Bioware say they balance,

 

My problem with continuous nerf calls on every class that ever falls nto the top performers, is most of the time they are fine. It’s people complaining that their preferred class isn’t the one at the top, it’s tall poppy syndrome and it’s frustrating.

Why do we have the continuous calls to tear down good classes because other classes are under perfoming?

Why not ask them to fix the other classes?

Yes, sometimes they can over tune a class. But people are also lazy and will not take the time to learn a new meta after nerfs and buffs. They just want their class to be in those 1-3 top places and not have to relearn new tactics or play style. So they come here ever damn time and ask for nerfs before actually learning something new,

 

Why am I so frustrated? Because I never usually play FOTM classes. I will go out of my way not to play one. Usually I’m playing one of the least perfoming or mid perfoming classes. All last year, I was derided by others for playing a Fury Mara instead of Carnage. I spent a lot of time honing my skills so I could perform just as well as Carnage. I took the time to develop tactics and strategies to deal with Mercs and Snipers and I was doing fairly good before the changes, it’s one of the reasons I fought against nerf changes to Mercs and Snipers as well because I realised I could deal with them the way they were,

 

Now that I’ve honed my skills on the Fury Mara, I know the spec and tactics pretty good. I may not a master of the class, but I can see how most of the QQ is a L2P for most people who struggle against solo Mara’s. I know this because I can beat 90% of Fury Mara’s on my Rage Jugg and sniper. Sure, heaps are bad FOTM rerollers, but there are a few like myself who can play the class. One of the reasons I can beat those good Mara’s is because I know that class intermittently and I know how to counter it. I don’t win every time. It’s often really close and can go either way.

Most of the time people QQ because they don’t know how to counter another class and don’t take the time to learn after a meta change. As far as I’m concerned, they are lazy, even if they are good players normally.

 

IMO the QQ for most nerfs calls can fall into these categories

 

1. People who are actually bad and so need to L2P

2. People who can play and are lazy and won’t learn how to counter any class. They rely on their class being near the top to get them by.

3. Good players who won’t learn new things after a meta change, they are too ridged and lazy. This is still a form of L2P

4. People want their class to be the top perfoming class and when it’s not they try to tear down other classes.

5. A mix of 2, 3, 4.

6. In rare occasions a class is way over the top tuned for pvp. But this is a rare occurance and certainly not what is happening at the moment.

[TrixxieTriss]

The counter to sniper is another sniper, always has been. Pacify is used by all 3 specs, not just fury. Carnage is still BiS for top hardswap group ranked teams, and annihilation can be quite strong in a pressure setup, so I would still be getting pacified either way. Fury is not a counter class to marksman.

 

I said I was fine with pacify and to some extent ruthless aggressor even though it is usually directed at me since sniper's diversion also reduces accuracy on tech attacks (albiet not by 75% but it is AOE) so not sure why you got hung up on that.

 

Force cloak duration needs to be 2 seconds (buffed to 6 if you take the utility for solo ranked) and fury damage needs a flat 300 dps- 500 dps parse nerf with some its single target burst/sustained reallocated to aoe damage via cyclone slash or smash.

 

This will happen because of its position in pve primarily, because it is not fulfilling its AOE damage role. Currently, it is a single target spec AOE weaker than carnage , high single target burst and sustained that is higher than that of annihilation. Whether or not you like it, it will be nerfed. They did a similar nerf to engineering for the same reasons and engineering is the closest corollary spec to fury. Carnage received an 800 dps nerf and is still strongest for hardswaps, so it's not like fury would be removed from the game. I would hope that annihilation & carnage would both receive a small buff at the same time.

 

Out of everyone here who is asking for nerfs, you are pretty much the only one asking for dps nerfs. Every nerf you are asking for is because Fury Mara’s “are” the “melee” counter to snipers and you can’t seem to handle them, I’m sorry but its 100% a learn to play issue because I know plenty of snipers, including myself who know how to counter all of those things you want nerfed.

 

Also Snipers aren’t the counter class to snipers. Counter class means another class, not the same class

Every class in this game has at least one counter class/spec. It’s why you will always see more Fury Mara’s when snipers are near the top, you will see more snipers when Mercs are near the top, etc, etc.

 

As a Marksman sniper you can pretty much control any melee class that doesn’t have some way to close the gap on you. Marksman has some of the highest burst in the game and can keep most melee off them, even in a 2v1 scenario. Only fury can get close to you without taking damage until they are there. But whats the point of getting there and not being able to do damage to you, especially when you have the ability to absorb a truck load of that damage, escape and then keep the Mara at a distance till their DCDs are back.

 

Hardly anyone else sees a problem with the dps being too high. Even though I disagree with what they do want nerfed, at least they agree the dps is ok,

It’s obvious that you are QQing because you are getting pressured by Fury Mara’s. Well I’m sorry to say, but that’s what they are there to do.

Edited January 7, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[shyroman]

snip

 

You're acting like people want the class/spec gutted where that isn't the case from what I've read. Fury just needs a slight dps decrease to bring it in line for pve and that would barely affect pvp. For maras as a whole, RA needs to be nerfed because that was what made mara dcd's over the top (they were arguable the most balanced class defensively in 4.x). People have been talking about RA being too strong since 5.0 launched, it's just gaining more traction now because fury has slightly better defensives than the other specs with stun immunity and can stick on targets easier and more people are playing fury now than before.

 

It's also pretty easy to see how fury has gone from "underpowered" to op. It was in fact always incredibly strong but people rarely played it and never played it optimally for dps. Now that is is played a lot more, people start complaining more.

Edited January 7, 2018 by shyroman