If SWTOR is losing players, how can Bioware turn things around?

[Quraswren]

Why do you see it as BW pushing people out, rather than people making their own decision to leave?

SNIP...

 

When you tell your raiding community that you will get them one raid in an entire year but come to find out they could only do 3 out of 5 bosses in a year.

 

That actually does push gamers out.

 

When bioware tells gamers servers will be in the same regions but come to find out, bioware wipes out the entire west coast server. Screwing with the game play of nearly every west coast server players plus APAC players.

 

Well guess what? Bioware decisions to write those playesr off as a loss has just pushed out more gamers.

 

Same for how the CXP bonus was poorly handled by bioware. Same for how recent and past exploits are poorly handled bioware.

 

Bioware has a tendency to make such bad decisions that yes. bioware themselves pushes gamers away.

Edited January 14, 2018 by Quraswren

[olagatonjedi]

That's very simple. When you announce something that people are very vocal against and you bring it out anyway and people leave then you have basically pushed people out.

 

When you tell your raiding community that you will get them one raid in an entire year but come to find out they could only do 3 out of 5 bosses in a year.

I'm gonna use both of your statements to answer each of you. There is so much inconsistency with regards to public demand that it's amazing that any company can be successful.

 

Tsillah, that kinda of thinking is folly. The public honestly couldn't realistically expect BW to scrap a project that they had invested a lot of time and resources into just because the vocal community voices their displeasure with the content of the expansion? Keep in mind that the vocal community doesn't necessarily equal the majority of playerbase, too. Many people are now currently happy with the state of 5.x, so obviously the vocal community influenced changes going forward, but again, you can't honestly have expected them to toss all that work aside.

 

So what if they would have scrapped it, by vocal demand? Then players like Quraswen references would use it as fuel towards the "bioware doesn't follow up on their promises" complaint. If BW scraps 5.0, and decides not to release it, that would've been a worse public nightmare than anything 5.0 would've brought with release.

 

So the best strategy was to release it, and adjust it, which is what they have done.

 

You both seem to still be operating under the idea that BW can please everyone, but it's simply not possible. A single change will make some people happy, and others angry.

[annabethchase]

...

 

So the best strategy was to release it, and adjust it, which is what they have done....

 

They have not adjusted at any reasonable pace. We're over a year past 5.0 and we basically have nothing to show for that year. Also, nothing interesting described yet for 2018 either.

 

Secondly, it was clear from the 4.0 cycle that less than half of the subscribers liked the storyline and that many people were not satisfied with the volume of content in the "monthly" releases either. So where was the adjustment going into the 5.0 cycle? They released the same amount of chapters as the 4.0 "expansion" and called it a year.

 

The population declines testify that all of the above is true. It's been a noticeable decline steadily since 4.0 and was especially noticeable right after 4.0 and 5.0 when many people tried it and left within a month.

Edited January 14, 2018 by annabethchase

[olagatonjedi]

They have not adjusted at any reasonable pace. We're over a year past 5.0 and we basically have nothing to show for that year. Also, nothing interesting described yet for 2018 either.

Opinion that is opposite of mine. But i'm right and you're not......neener neener. But seriously, your opinion is no more important than mine, and that's all that your statement is.

 

Secondly, it was clear from the 4.0 cycle that less than half of the subscribers liked the storyline and that many people were not satisfied with the volume of content in the "monthly" releases either. So where was the adjustment going into the 5.0 cycle? They released the same amount of chapters as the 4.0 "expansion" and called it a year.

 

The population declines testify that all of the above is true. It's been a noticeable decline steadily since 4.0 and was especially noticeable right after 4.0 and 5.0 when many people tried it and left within a month.

Show me subscriber numbers, not population numbers. Population numbers can fluctuate for a variety of reasons. The bottom line is the bottom line, and that is subscriber numbers and/or total revenue.

[Tsillah]

Tsillah, that kinda of thinking is folly. The public honestly couldn't realistically expect BW to scrap a project that they had invested a lot of time and resources into just because the vocal community voices their displeasure with the content of the expansion? Keep in mind that the vocal community doesn't necessarily equal the majority of playerbase, too. Many people are now currently happy with the state of 5.x, so obviously the vocal community influenced changes going forward, but again, you can't honestly have expected them to toss all that work aside.

 

So what if they would have scrapped it, by vocal demand? Then players like Quraswen references would use it as fuel towards the "bioware doesn't follow up on their promises" complaint. If BW scraps 5.0, and decides not to release it, that would've been a worse public nightmare than anything 5.0 would've brought with release.

 

So the best strategy was to release it, and adjust it, which is what they have done.

 

You both seem to still be operating under the idea that BW can please everyone, but it's simply not possible. A single change will make some people happy, and others angry.

I do not think that Bioware can please everyone. I actually find it insulting that you say that. I've always been someone with nuance and not so black and white. I stated multiple times that I expect that some things don't work out as you hope and that's part of normal business. But Galactic Command is something that was even criticized heavily on the PTS well before they even announced it to the public. And they did make some adjustments beforehand but with each adjustment towards what we wanted they added one we didn't. This was willful behaviour because they were trying to meet certain targets/numbers and we just wanted something we actually enjoy.

 

The problem you have is that you willfully ignore the reality that this game keeps losing players and that it cannot be avoided no matter what Bioware do. I find that ridiculous frankly. I think that they have done things that didn't work out that they couldn't have known, but they also did a number of things that they COULD have known would backfire or were big risks. And they failed and they backfired.

 

What's folly is that BW created something that at every step of the way where they could get feedback simply ignored because they felt they knew better...and they were wrong...again.

 

You make it sounds like Bioware are some poor victims and that nothing is their fault. My point is that some of it wasn't their fault and were just part of running a game business and trying out some stuff but some of the major things that went wrong are most definitely their responsibility and poor judgement on their part.

 

So again, no I don't think at all that Bioware can please everybody and it disgusts me that you accuse me of such an generalisation. I've said various times that this is part of it and you will always lose players. But you don't have to do your best to lose more players and you should be more critical and see if certain things will actually be a good idea. Some things you cannot know beforehand, others you can. But even there they dropped the ball too many times.

 

The fact still is that this game keeps losing players and Bioware is unable to stem the tide. So it's not strange that I ask them to think a bit more about what makes sense and what could actually stem the tide. Because I want the game to do better and have a chance to last for while longer. But at the rate they've been going this game will be doomed by the end of next year...unless they get it right. And I'll tell you, even if they get it right, some people will hate it and leave. That's fine, but it needs to make more people happy and not just for a month or two.

 

That's what needs to happen in my view. If you think that I'm wrong about the population getting smaller and the game needing a turnaround I'll gladly declare you mad. We'll see.

[olagatonjedi]

I do not think that Bioware can please everyone. I actually find it insulting that you say that. I've always been someone with nuance and not so black and white. I stated multiple times that I expect that some things don't work out as you hope and that's part of normal business. But Galactic Command is something that was even criticized heavily on the PTS well before they even announced it to the public. And they did make some adjustments beforehand but with each adjustment towards what we wanted they added one we didn't. This was willful behaviour because they were trying to meet certain targets/numbers and we just wanted something we actually enjoy.

 

The problem you have is that you willfully ignore the reality that this game keeps losing players and that it cannot be avoided no matter what Bioware do. I find that ridiculous frankly. I think that they have done things that didn't work out that they couldn't have known, but they also did a number of things that they COULD have known would backfire or were big risks. And they failed and they backfired.

 

What's folly is that BW created something that at every step of the way where they could get feedback simply ignored because they felt they knew better...and they were wrong...again.

 

You make it sounds like Bioware are some poor victims and that nothing is their fault. My point is that some of it wasn't their fault and were just part of running a game business and trying out some stuff but some of the major things that went wrong are most definitely their responsibility and poor judgement on their part.

 

So again, no I don't think at all that Bioware can please everybody and it disgusts me that you accuse me of such an generalisation. I've said various times that this is part of it and you will always lose players. But you don't have to do your best to lose more players and you should be more critical and see if certain things will actually be a good idea. Some things you cannot know beforehand, others you can. But even there they dropped the ball too many times.

 

The fact still is that this game keeps losing players and Bioware is unable to stem the tide. So it's not strange that I ask them to think a bit more about what makes sense and what could actually stem the tide. Because I want the game to do better and have a chance to last for while longer. But at the rate they've been going this game will be doomed by the end of next year...unless they get it right. And I'll tell you, even if they get it right, some people will hate it and leave. That's fine, but it needs to make more people happy and not just for a month or two.

 

That's what needs to happen in my view. If you think that I'm wrong about the population getting smaller and the game needing a turnaround I'll gladly declare you mad. We'll see.

The reality is that once it hits PTS, they are looking for tweaking ideas, not revamping ideas. And honestly, from what I have seen largely in this community (and many, so its not isolated to just swtor), is that people are more willing to complain than to find a realistic solution - tweak. When something is announced or released, people spend the first few days complaining about it instead of just saying what they do like and including small areas that may benefit going forward. Maybe they just dont understand how development works. On the PTS server, where the amount of time is somewhat limited to implement appropriate tweaks, wasting 1-7 days complaining about everything and threatening to leave is a hugely lost opportunity. Thats 1-7days that tweaks could be reviewed, investigated, tested, etc.

 

As for the changes they did make, its a collaborative effort, and also a give and take. A good conpany will have a big picture view of things, and note that when 1 change is made, the impact can be felt in many areas, sometimes unintended. So if they gave an inch in one area, they have every right to take an inch back elsewhere. Thats normal business, in the real world. Collective bargaining agreements come to mind. Nobody gets anything they want without giving up something in return. If they are going to get burned by the community for following a common business model, im sure they gladly shrug it off and lose no sleep.

 

MMO changes often backfire, but thats why they are a beast unto themselves. The dynamic nature means that they are bound to upset the playerbase regularly, and the fact that it takes most, if not all, of these mmo companies a lengthy amount of time to bring new changes just adds to it, because if your particular interest in the game is neglected for a very possible 3-4 years, you feel the game is failing, and are likely to move on or alternate between games regularly. Alternating is a big part of the market nowadays too. That trend is bound to show populations decrease, but may not mean that subs are decreasing at an equal rate (not that subs are that important either, with the revenue generated by F2P). So again, the bottom line is the bottom line, whether the game appeals to you, me, or anyone. Too many people bring their star wars passion to a business conversation.

[Quraswren]

I'm gonna use both of your statements to answer each of you. There is so much inconsistency with regards to public demand that it's amazing that any company can be successful.

 

The inconsistancy does not fall on the gamer here. bioware said, they would get that entire OPS out by the end of December.

 

They failed to do that. Thats about as cut and dry as you can get when it comes to failures in hitting a goal.

 

You both seem to still be operating under the idea that BW can please everyone, but it's simply not possible. A single change will make some people happy, and others angry.

 

You are clearly delusional if you thought anyone here though biwoare could please everyone. Bioware can barely please just one side of content gamers much less everyone. Now that I think about it, if there was a gaming company that might have a chance of please every gamer they have. Bioware is the company that is farthest away from that.

 

It's always been a hope and dream that bioware could get it down but even at launch we learned bioware couldn't do it. Please of story. Too much reliance on story with little end game. It's been like this since day one and they have played catch up since then and the closest we ever got was SoR with content for nearly everyone (even a little for PVp IIRC).

 

You suffer under this delusion that we want content for everyone. That is simply not true. I'd wager gamers left in swtor just want content released sooner. They want it to vary from the solo gamer to the PVP gamer to the casual players to the HC. When we asked for more story games wanted more class story, not the all for one garbage we got and clearly not the nearly 2 years of solo content only.

 

Can bioawre turn things around? Not of they stay doing what they are currently doing thats for sure. I'd wager player retention is at an all time low due to poor content and content not worth repeating as much as bioware thinks you should.

[olagatonjedi]

The inconsistancy does not fall on the gamer here. bioware said, they would get that entire OPS out by the end of December.

 

They failed to do that. Thats about as cut and dry as you can get when it comes to failures in hitting a goal.

Ahh, and that neeeevvvvveeeerrr happens in business, right? If your enjoyment of the game relied on 1 op coming out 1 month sooner than it plans to, then you really are trying to find any reason to either quit, or be mad at bioware. Lmao, to each his own.

Edited January 14, 2018 by olagatonjedi

[Bladeofhonour]

They'd have to rename the game to something else then, and completely rework everything to remove everything Star Wars from it.

 

EA owns the Star Wars game license. Even if BW Austin could buy itself free, they wouldn't get that license. Plus, EA would likely not give them the game, so they'd have to build one from scratch.

 

Also, keep in mind that this isn't Bioware anymore.

 

 

Bad comparison. Despite of what professional protestors and useful idiots scream Monsanto isn't even half as bad as they all claim in their whine of hyperbole and hysteria.

 

Sure. Removing star wars from a STAR WARS game to making all fans quit. Best way to get broke fast. You maybe had learned at This broken game company which made RoM or so.

Edited January 14, 2018 by Bladeofhonour

[PennyAnn]

Ahh, and that neeeevvvvveeeerrr happens in business, right? If your enjoyment of the game relied on 1 op coming out 1 month sooner than it plans to, then you really are trying to find any reason to either quit, or be mad at bioware. Lmao, to each his own.

 

Except it's not going to just be 1 month. More like an entire quarter late. What they are putting in with the patch in January is not the last boss. The raid is still not complete. With the release rate over the last year, I wouldn't expect it to be complete until late March at the earliest. I might be surprised, but so far I have not been surprised. They are more than a little late on what they promised to deliver, and no amount of white knighting on your part changes that.

 

Accuse all you like that people are trying to find a reason to quit or be mad at Bioware, we don't have to try very hard to find either. Opposite side of the coin: you really are trying to find any reason to excuse Bioware and talk down to any who might not be happy with the state of the game right now. I know which of us has to work harder to find something to back us up. I'm glad you're happy with the game. Go play it and accept that not everyone is as happy with the minimal amount of content that you are. Nothing wrong on either side, everyone can have their opinions about whether or not they are satisfied. Unfortunately, not enough people are satisfied customers to even keep a west coast data center open. I wish that weren't the case and that Bioware was knocking it out of the park.

 

We'll see what happens in 2018. But it is my suspicion that a lot more will have to be done than they did last year, or this game will shrink even more and perhaps shut down all together. I hope for the opposite of that. I hope they turn the ship around. So far everything they have tried has not worked. I hope they keep trying and eventually succeed.

[Anzel]

I just couldn't do the gambling anymore. The gambling is terrible. Our house went from 6 accounts to one that I keep just out of curiosity. I login once maybe every 6 weeks or so, look at my stuff and logout. Nobody here spends a dime on this anymore.

[LordArtemis]

The premise, for this discussion, is that Bioware has lost players and needs to entice them back. That premise does not need to be proven because it is speculative. It only exists as the point of conversation, not an established fact.

 

It is silly, IMO, to argue the merits or pitfalls of the argument that subscriptions are on a downward trend. They may be, they may not, but the core of this thread is the assumption that they have for the sake of the discussion, without need for confirmation or proof either way.

 

It is the only way to have this discussion without it devolving into arguments as to the merit of the premise.

 

I would ask that folks respect that as they move forward. Naturally people can do as they wish.

[DanNV]

The reality is that once it hits PTS, they are looking for tweaking ideas, not revamping ideas. And honestly, from what I have seen largely in this community (and many, so its not isolated to just swtor), is that people are more willing to complain than to find a realistic solution - tweak. When something is announced or released, people spend the first few days complaining about it instead of just saying what they do like and including small areas that may benefit going forward. Maybe they just dont understand how development works. On the PTS server, where the amount of time is somewhat limited to implement appropriate tweaks, wasting 1-7 days complaining about everything and threatening to leave is a hugely lost opportunity. Thats 1-7days that tweaks could be reviewed, investigated, tested, etc.

 

Let me point out that the last time a bunch of people on the PTS said they'd leave (over GC), they left and a lot more went with them. Hence 2 small NA servers, no mega servers and I expect no more major updates or expansions. (Think Hut Cartel as major.)

 

As for the changes they did make, its a collaborative effort, and also a give and take. A good conpany will have a big picture view of things, and note that when 1 change is made, the impact can be felt in many areas, sometimes unintended. So if they gave an inch in one area, they have every right to take an inch back elsewhere. Thats normal business, in the real world. Collective bargaining agreements come to mind. Nobody gets anything they want without giving up something in return. If they are going to get burned by the community for following a common business model, im sure they gladly shrug it off and lose no sleep.

 

That works for collective bargaining. But when it's customers saying "We want X or we won't buy your product." there is no bargaining. You provide what the customer wants or you lose the customer. The last 2 years of this game show that to great effect.

 

EA hosed this game more than once or twice and has refused, at every turn, to really admit it or fix it. Now there isn't much left and it would take a huge investment to fix it. I don't see EA doing that.

[Vexov]

Its beyond help nor can it get the help it needs cause of the current player base defending against the changes it needs. It has been years and its just been going down hill.

 

Far as i could tell the game had 2.5m players at release then in 3 months the game died down quickly, 3-5 months the game was likely at 500k. It took them too long to fix anything cause EA ditches it, just simple pvp tweaks took 3 months. EA probably had plans for F2P when ppl got tired of subbing to a game that got no care. Of course it wasn't the only reason as there could probably have been a long list of terrible ideas they listened to from a minority of gamers that thought they knew best for everyone else. AND BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH!!!!!.

 

Who cares really anymore, but i will say its funny to hear people try to blame its failure on trying to chase WoW or mmo's are just no longer popular. Again, blah blah blah.

 

 

 

How to attract more players, cause it cannot be fixed.

 

- Ability Bloat: There are abilities that are still needlessly around. You don't need a slow when you got 3-5 slow abilities or can make it so nearly all you attacks can apply a slow. Just recently i been playing Jedi Kinetic Combat Force breach is useless bloat as another example and i would so that 15 def charges ability is also just a pest and has no skill to it. Then there is dps having 3-4 heals and a cleanse... 2 heals tops and a cleanse (it just adds up to useless bloat, i rather dps not have any healing).

 

- Abilities should be strong from the start. Instead you have to wait many levels to start unlocking their passives in the linear skill tree.

 

- Abilities should be 5-6 single target skills, 2-3 aoe. Im not going to get into the others, but if you go over 24 combat ablities then thats just not needed at all. If you want to bring new skills into the game they should replace current ones to give a fresh appearance to the class and show of improvement.

 

- Abilities that make sense. Why is my Sith Jug trying to shout things to death?. Why is my double-bladed jedi kinetic combat throwing boulders instead of closing the distance and slicing away?. The kits don't make and in that way are not as fun as the small population this game has believes they are. I mean of course to them they are fun, but lets bring in more players here instead of continuing to appease the 100-300k players who will play it no matter the changes.

 

- Less cooldowns and removed triggerd effects if can't show clearly on the character. The action is found on my action bar with its bloated cooldowns and effect triggers nearby (hp bars above it). I just find myself looking down more then im looking at the action in game. Its a SW game and action should be experienced with in the combat.

 

- Linear skill tree REMOVED. This is totally not needed and only adds not needed confusiong to playing multiple classes. The abilities feel stripped down and boring thanks to any decent effects held back and put into passive you have to wait to unlock and at that multiple effects for skills (by lvl 50 you probably altered some attack 5 times).

 

- Skill tree can be kept, but also something not needed if classes were built right. Classes should be built for pvp cause those skills easily would effect pve. It just makes sense you attack a npc the same a pc in combat.

 

- Legacy brought to true greatness instead of some tool for the cartel market. Legacy should be something players slowly build towards from achievements and resources. It should be account wide rather then having to unlock stuff for every character over and over again. Not that it matters cause what it offers is pretty sad ideas for the vast majority.

 

- Cartel market RNG killed. Honestly, micro is gross enough without some unknown rng on item drops. Just sell all the items on the market and sell them at a fair price: (subs get 50% off all items, and sure remove the 500 monthly cartel coins given).

 

- Flash points fixed up (HA, ya... thats not happening). It would be great if the scale of things and the BS in some fights could be ironed down. I mean walking into a FP and watching the group avoid 4/5 fights and boss fights that you cheese cause the damage they output is just cheating. If people are not able to be challenged fairly in a fun way then its a fail.

 

- Class missions 1-50 (or higher) giving the much needed gear players should be getting so they can focus purely on class missions instead of running heroics on the side or whatever. The current point is to allow players to enjoy story and get caught up, lets kill whats killing the experience here (the need to gear).

 

- Adaptive gear with scaling stats. This would be great if stats would scale until some point the player is caught up to some expansion. Also, make sure weapons are scaling, as they should of course.

 

 

 

Well, i won't check the responses. I left a rough nearly on the spot thoughts post in hope this game finally does something with itself. I bought a collectors edition (before release) with all the hopes for this game. I;m saying i wanted it to succeed and if it turned things around enough it would be attractive enough to stay and bring in a growing player base.

 

Games should be fun and challenging, but when i play SWTOR the only thing truly good about it is the story. Of course tho, people will just be against any change. Well, if you guys won't make compromises then you just enjoy your slowly dying game that you help make happen. You don't care about the game when you're killing it.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Vexov

[DarthSpuds]

The reality is that once it hits PTS, they are looking for tweaking ideas, not revamping ideas.

 

When Command Crates were ONLY on the PTS Bioware had the option to NOT push it to live. I understand that once it hits PTS there has already been significant investment in something, but I also understand that if the customer "first contact" with that new thing is overwhelmingly negative (and it was) then if you want to retain customers you suck it up, take the loss, and start giving customers what they want.

 

So pushing it to Live was, by any measure, a major management mistake.

 

At this point there are, though, still options to undo the harm done by going live with CC.

 

Now Bioware knew for a fact that the feeling was so negative regarding Command Crates that the ONLY thing that would prevent a mass exodus of players was them saying "Yep, we got that totally wrong, we ARE going to change it, and we ARE going to listen to your feedback".

 

Bioware chose NOT to do this, that was the second major management mistake.

 

And just to prove they were as incompetent as we all feared they double down on that mistake and put Ben Irving on a Live-stream to defend what they already knew was indefensible.

 

I don't know if you were in the Twitch Channel the day Ben Irving basically said, regarding Command Crates, "We think RNG is exciting, so suck it up, or leave", I was - and you could not keep pace with the number of "Unsubbed" messages flying through twitch.

 

That was the third major management mistake, within about 10 days,

 

The guild I was in went from over 100 players to less than 15 OVERNIGHT!

 

The only thing more shocking than the management incompetence, and disdain for the paying customer this whole debacle demonstrated was just how long it took EA to decide that Ben Irving needed a shove out the door.

 

Had they replaced him almost immediately, and committed to fixing the fuster-cluck that was CC they could have had a chance at avoiding so many lost players - but they mishandled that too.

 

ALL of the problems in this game stem from systemic miss-management by Bioware and EA.

 

Stop trying to blame the players. We are the ONLY thing keeping the game afloat - listening to us so we keep on paying should be Bioware's number 1 priority.

 

All The Best

Edited January 15, 2018 by DarthSpuds

[Isnogut]

Its beyond help nor can it get the help it needs cause of the current player base defending against the changes it needs. It has been years and its just been going down hill.

 

Far as i could tell the game had 2.5m players at release then in 3 months the game died down quickly, 3-5 months the game was likely at 500k. It took them too long to fix anything cause EA ditches it, just simple pvp tweaks took 3 months. EA probably had plans for F2P when ppl got tired of subbing to a game that got no care. Of course it wasn't the only reason as there could probably have been a long list of terrible ideas they listened to from a minority of gamers that thought they knew best for everyone else. AND BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH!!!!!.

 

Who cares really anymore, but i will say its funny to hear people try to blame its failure on trying to chase WoW or mmo's are just no longer popular. Again, blah blah blah.

 

 

 

How to attract more players, cause it cannot be fixed.

 

- Ability Bloat: There are abilities that are still needlessly around. You don't need a slow when you got 3-5 slow abilities or can make it so nearly all you attacks can apply a slow. Just recently i been playing Jedi Kinetic Combat Force breach is useless bloat as another example and i would so that 15 def charges ability is also just a pest and has no skill to it. Then there is dps having 3-4 heals and a cleanse... 2 heals tops and a cleanse (it just adds up to useless bloat, i rather dps not have any healing).

 

- Abilities should be strong from the start. Instead you have to wait many levels to start unlocking their passives in the linear skill tree.

 

- Abilities should be 5-6 single target skills, 2-3 aoe. Im not going to get into the others, but if you go over 24 combat ablities then thats just not needed at all. If you want to bring new skills into the game they should replace current ones to give a fresh appearance to the class and show of improvement.

 

- Abilities that make sense. Why is my Sith Jug trying to shout things to death?. Why is my double-bladed jedi kinetic combat throwing boulders instead of closing the distance and slicing away?. The kits don't make and in that way are not as fun as the small population this game has believes they are. I mean of course to them they are fun, but lets bring in more players here instead of continuing to appease the 100-300k players who will play it no matter the changes.

 

- Less cooldowns and removed triggerd effects if can't show clearly on the character. The action is found on my action bar with its bloated cooldowns and effect triggers nearby (hp bars above it). I just find myself looking down more then im looking at the action in game. Its a SW game and action should be experienced with in the combat.

 

- Linear skill tree REMOVED. This is totally not needed and only adds not needed confusiong to playing multiple classes. The abilities feel stripped down and boring thanks to any decent effects held back and put into passive you have to wait to unlock and at that multiple effects for skills (by lvl 50 you probably altered some attack 5 times).

 

- Skill tree can be kept, but also something not needed if classes were built right. Classes should be built for pvp cause those skills easily would effect pve. It just makes sense you attack a npc the same a pc in combat.

 

- Legacy brought to true greatness instead of some tool for the cartel market. Legacy should be something players slowly build towards from achievements and resources. It should be account wide rather then having to unlock stuff for every character over and over again. Not that it matters cause what it offers is pretty sad ideas for the vast majority.

 

- Cartel market RNG killed. Honestly, micro is gross enough without some unknown rng on item drops. Just sell all the items on the market and sell them at a fair price: (subs get 50% off all items, and sure remove the 500 monthly cartel coins given).

 

- Flash points fixed up (HA, ya... thats not happening). It would be great if the scale of things and the BS in some fights could be ironed down. I mean walking into a FP and watching the group avoid 4/5 fights and boss fights that you cheese cause the damage they output is just cheating. If people are not able to be challenged fairly in a fun way then its a fail.

 

- Class missions 1-50 (or higher) giving the much needed gear players should be getting so they can focus purely on class missions instead of running heroics on the side or whatever. The current point is to allow players to enjoy story and get caught up, lets kill whats killing the experience here (the need to gear).

 

- Adaptive gear with scaling stats. This would be great if stats would scale until some point the player is caught up to some expansion. Also, make sure weapons are scaling, as they should of course.

 

 

 

Well, i won't check the responses. I left a rough nearly on the spot thoughts post in hope this game finally does something with itself. I bought a collectors edition (before release) with all the hopes for this game. I;m saying i wanted it to succeed and if it turned things around enough it would be attractive enough to stay and bring in a growing player base.

 

Games should be fun and challenging, but when i play SWTOR the only thing truly good about it is the story. Of course tho, people will just be against any change. Well, if you guys won't make compromises then you just enjoy your slowly dying game that you help make happen. You don't care about the game when you're killing it.

 

So basically, what you are saying is, "give us godmode and people will start to play the game!"

What?!

 

Your ideas are exactly what somebody would do in a game like Skyrim or Witcher. Cheatcode a lot of money, bolster up your skills to maximum and go frag anything. Well maybe in singleplayer games this works, but not in an MMO. It simply misses the entire idea of an MMO. You have to grow into your role.

 

But that is a problem here. You can't grow into your role, if you never learn what your class is doing. By speeding up the XP gained, the player is trying to wrap his mind behind a possible workflow, while during the next Level, the whole workflow he managed to figure out, is trown apart, while adding a/or several new skill/s.

Also it makes no sense, that several classes have to fixate your view on CD's and Crit-shots the whole time on the skillbars. While you can manage with others because they have a rotation. Also it is quite unpractical for some classes to have to hit way more skills to bolster their Damage/Heal, wile others just have to keep up the right rotation, build up from just 6-9 keys.

...but that is just leveling the ground to give a fair chance to anyone, either for PVP pr PVE.

 

Second, don't try to copy WOW. It sin't working, it never did! No other MMO wich tried to be compared to WOW was ever succesfull. Any MMO which tried to be unique in some way was interesting, ....if! Yes, if the production studio and the publisher focus their ressources on fast improvements and addons. (So basically any MMO aside from WOW faild that)

All the MMO's who failed misserably yet being AAA productions also never learned from the past mistakes WOW did. Well, WOW is a phenomenon, also it is the only MMO game that outgrew its mistakes. SWTOR sadly never did! And if you ask me, the developers even enlarged the mistakes of the game. Open PVP is dead. Class story plots, are dead. Decisions do not count at all. Social gameplay was killed off by random class grouping. Class handling does not only look different, any class and subclass behave extremly different, like playing another game. Also that 3 different GUI for biped avatar, spacemissions and starfighter missions. Killing off the learning curve is the worst that could happen to any MMO. Bad support. Lootboxing. ETC. List of missed opportunities goes on and on here.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Isnogut

[olagatonjedi]

Except it's not going to just be 1 month. More like an entire quarter late. What they are putting in with the patch in January is not the last boss. The raid is still not complete. With the release rate over the last year, I wouldn't expect it to be complete until late March at the earliest. I might be surprised, but so far I have not been surprised. They are more than a little late on what they promised to deliver, and no amount of white knighting on your part changes that.

1 month, 3 months, does it truly matter that much? What drastic action are you intending to take if it becomes 6 months late? Unsub? Hoot and holler? In the game of life, this whole argument is petty, unless this is your life. I encourage you to get some perspective, for your own good. Play the game, if you like the product, play it. If you dont, make a suggestion and hope (dont expect) it to happen, and dont state as fact that your suggestion is the difference between success and failure, because with all the moving larts involved, and people involved, nobody truly knows. (Btw, im not speaking directly at you)

 

Accuse all you like that people are trying to find a reason to quit or be mad at Bioware, we don't have to try very hard to find either. Opposite side of the coin: you really are trying to find any reason to excuse Bioware and talk down to any who might not be happy with the state of the game right now. I know which of us has to work harder to find something to back us up. I'm glad you're happy with the game. Go play it and accept that not everyone is as happy with the minimal amount of content that you are. Nothing wrong on either side, everyone can have their opinions about whether or not they are satisfied. Unfortunately, not enough people are satisfied customers to even keep a west coast data center open. I wish that weren't the case and that Bioware was knocking it out of the park.

And I have given my support to anyone wishing to express their opinion, but I have no problem correcting them when they try to speak as though their opinion is fact, when they try to draw a concrete conclusion from evidence that can be interpreted a multitude of ways, or as though their opinion is commonplace, because none of those are necessarily accurate. I believe strongly in an educated community (beyond the game), so my fight isnt for petty stuff like more fps or story content, its for better, more intelligent thought.

 

We'll see what happens in 2018. But it is my suspicion that a lot more will have to be done than they did last year, or this game will shrink even more and perhaps shut down all together. I hope for the opposite of that. I hope they turn the ship around. So far everything they have tried has not worked. I hope they keep trying and eventually succeed.

I am hoping for the best as well, but if it doesnt succeed, i would hope the community would understand their part in the demise as well - doubtful, but hopeful.

Edited January 15, 2018 by olagatonjedi

[olagatonjedi]

Let me point out that the last time a bunch of people on the PTS said they'd leave (over GC), they left and a lot more went with them. Hence 2 small NA servers, no mega servers and I expect no more major updates or expansions. (Think Hut Cartel as major.)

I think you're trying to apply the result to the cause without sufficient information. For all anyone knows, BW couldve been planning to merge servers for over a year. Iirc, they even stated something along the lines of we finally have the pieces in place to make significant changes to the infrastructure (something like that). I didnt immediately conclude that it was because of people leaving, but more because financially or technologically they were ready to make those changes. Neither of us know for certain, so your attempt to place utmost importance on the PTS battle is not necessarily what you believe it is.

 

That works for collective bargaining. But when it's customers saying "We want X or we won't buy your product." there is no bargaining. You provide what the customer wants or you lose the customer. The last 2 years of this game show that to great effect.

Sticking to your guns also helps maintain their games integrity instead of allowing it to get unbalanced and possibly fail further. Its easy to say we want X, and use a large fanbase to bully your beliefs. Its a lot harder decision to maintain the coarse and make a decision that may not be in the best immediate financial interest, but allow the game to succeed longer. You are assuming that if the changes were made to please the PTS outcry, the longer term outlook on the game would be better - but again, you dont know. Ultimately youre guessing.

 

EA hosed this game more than once or twice and has refused, at every turn, to really admit it or fix it. Now there isn't much left and it would take a huge investment to fix it. I don't see EA doing that.

You're assuming that they intended to invest a lot of money into it after all the money invested to get it launched. This may have been their plan - make tons of money on the launch, and just keep it afloat as long as possible. Some businesses have this model, so its not unheard of.

[TUXs]

That's not BoiWares choice but EA.

 

If you ask me, EA's doing is what broke BioWares neck and diminish SWTO's player base.

EA controls the flow of $, not design. As much as I'd love to blame EA, it was Bioware and Ben who thought KOTFE/KOTET were a good idea...not EA.

[olagatonjedi]

When Command Crates were ONLY on the PTS Bioware had the option to NOT push it to live. I understand that once it hits PTS there has already been significant investment in something, but I also understand that if the customer "first contact" with that new thing is overwhelmingly negative (and it was) then if you want to retain customers you suck it up, take the loss, and start giving customers what they want.

 

So pushing it to Live was, by any measure, a major management mistake.

 

At this point there are, though, still options to undo the harm done by going live with CC.

 

Now Bioware knew for a fact that the feeling was so negative regarding Command Crates that the ONLY thing that would prevent a mass exodus of players was them saying "Yep, we got that totally wrong, we ARE going to change it, and we ARE going to listen to your feedback".

 

Bioware chose NOT to do this, that was the second major management mistake.

 

And just to prove they were as incompetent as we all feared they double down on that mistake and put Ben Irving on a Live-stream to defend what they already knew was indefensible.

 

I don't know if you were in the Twitch Channel the day Ben Irving basically said, regarding Command Crates, "We think RNG is exciting, so suck it up, or leave", I was - and you could not keep pace with the number of "Unsubbed" messages flying through twitch.

 

That was the third major management mistake, within about 10 days,

 

The guild I was in went from over 100 players to less than 15 OVERNIGHT!

 

The only thing more shocking than the management incompetence, and disdain for the paying customer this whole debacle demonstrated was just how long it took EA to decide that Ben Irving needed a shove out the door.

 

Had they replaced him almost immediately, and committed to fixing the fuster-cluck that was CC they could have had a chance at avoiding so many lost players - but they mishandled that too.

 

ALL of the problems in this game stem from systemic miss-management by Bioware and EA.

 

Stop trying to blame the players. We are the ONLY thing keeping the game afloat - listening to us so we keep on paying should be Bioware's number 1 priority.

 

All The Best

Honestly, it sounds like you, and others didnt see a bigger picture. Perhaps BW didnt think people would threaten/unsub at thr rate they may have (we dont know exactly the numbers)? Maybe not, but again, it sounds like the playerbase didnt see oe understand why it made sense to do CR.

 

What good is level syncing, and making use of old zones, of there is still nothing to be gained from going there? What is thr point of having BIS gear for only players who can dedicate the time to Master/NIM raids? Why limit content to only some of your subbed population base? It makes no sense to hold back the game like that.

 

So how do you open up all content, allow all players to either work hard or spend a lot of time (maybe not consecutive hours), or spend a lot of money, to get what they want (not what they need, per se)? A loot system, which if implemented right, allows for all of that.

 

I dont believe they rolled out the CR system in optimal fashion, but the current game, with the changes they made, should appeal to everyone who understands its purpose - and we have seen an awakening from players regarding the cxp system. Many people who disliked it at first are now finally understanding its benefits. From casual to pro, all have a chance to acquire the same stuff, doing whatever you enjoy most. Will gear come faster doing specific things? Yes. The point is that nobody is excluded, unless they choose not to participate. That focuses the player attention on doing stuff thry want to, rather than stuff they are forced to.

 

Overall, as a player, I dont see how people could view it as a bad thing. Feel free to point out what part of it you think is negative about CR at the present moment.

Edited January 15, 2018 by olagatonjedi

[Eshvara]

EA controls the flow of $, not design. As much as I'd love to blame EA, it was Bioware and Ben who thought KOTFE/KOTET were a good idea...not EA.

 

I'm fairly certain they still have to run it by and it had to be OK'd.

that game visceral was going to make, they still had to show it off to the investors and EA. They asked how it was going to make a similar amount of money as the FIFA games iirc!

 

As it's a single player game, it would not have, and that's why it got cancelled.

Then there's still Lucas arts and Disney that need to ok it, so while BW may have had the idea, if Lucas and Disney found it ok, they thought it was a good idea as well.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Eshvara

[TUXs]

I'm fairly certain they still have to run it by and it had to be OK'd.

that game visceral was going to make, they still had to show it off to the investors and EA. They asked how it was going to make a similar amount of money as the FIFA games iirc!

 

As it's a single player game, it would not have, and that's why it got cancelled.

Then there's still Lucas arts and Disney that need to ok it, so while BW may have had the idea, if Lucas and Disney found it ok, they thought it was a good idea as well.

I'm certain you're correct...but it was Ben who convinced them that KOTFE/KOTET were good ideas that would make them money...Bioware still controls what they develop, even if they need to get it approved. Bioware is still 100% responsible for where we are now...not EA...well, not in terms of what Bioware gives us for content...EA controls the purse.

[DarthSpuds]

Honestly, it sounds like you, and others didnt see a bigger picture. Perhaps BW didnt think people would threaten/unsub at thr rate they may have (we dont know exactly the numbers)? Maybe not, but again, it sounds like the playerbase didnt see oe understand why it made sense to do CR.

 

What good is level syncing, and making use of old zones, of there is still nothing to be gained from going there? What is thr point of having BIS gear for only players who can dedicate the time to Master/NIM raids? Why limit content to only some of your subbed population base? It makes no sense to hold back the game like that.

 

Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, that Command Ranks achieves could have been achieved with a simpler, cheaper, and more effective Token System.

 

There's NO NEED for ever increasing Ranks.

There's NO NEED for ridiculous RNG.

There's NO NEED to trade X for Y so we can then trade Y for A, and Upgrade A to Z.

 

A simple Token System so that all the existing "end game" content awards varying amounts of Tokens.

 

And we Trade Tokens in for T1 end-game gear, and T1+Tokens for T2, and T2+Tokens for T3 etc.

 

Far less design and implementation effort, and far less costly.

 

Meaning that as well and the new End Game Token System they could also have delivered you know... ..some actual content.

 

The whole Command Rank system had two purposes 1) "Make Work" so they could claim they are actually doing something, 2) Take resources away from actual content delivery.

 

Now, what was that you were saying about not seeing the "Big Picture"?

 

All The Best

[Costello]

I'm certain you're correct...but it was Ben who convinced them that KOTFE/KOTET were good ideas that would make them money...Bioware still controls what they develop, even if they need to get it approved. Bioware is still 100% responsible for where we are now...not EA...well, not in terms of what Bioware gives us for content...EA controls the purse.

 

I don't think the fault lies with Ben or EA.

 

If I told you (prior to Kotfe) Bioware are going to go back to their routes of immersive Story driven RPG gaming. They are going to bring the deep plots and characterization of the sort that you loved in games like Baldurs Gate, Dragon Age Origins, Mass Effect, KOTOR and the Vanilla SWTOR. There is going to be all new adventures for your Jedi Knight, Imperial Agent, Sith Sorcerer etc and see how their relationships with their companions grow. More than just one new story we will be launching a new chapter every month alongside these monthly chapters will be alliance alerts that will give people with more time more content to enjoy.

 

Now to me that sounds like a pretty good idea. where it messed up is that the story was pretty bad, where possible things were retconned but on the whole you get frozen, wake up 5 years later and everything you previously did is ignored. You then only have 3 planets (all a little small) as the only ones that have jumped forward 5 years, all companions taken from them and replaced with Lana and a bunch of traitors. The story then focuses on some all powerful force user who is fuming at their parent while the player in those story updates seems to do pointless thing after pointless thing that only thanks to being so over powered for story mode rampages their way through and some how manages to succeed thats to plot armour and the insanity of their opponents.

 

So the concept was good, its just a shame that the big lure the story failed to deliver on so many levels and then continued to fail to deliver as we are once again betrayed through the 2017 and star of 2018 story arc. If you take out the players plot armour its hard to see at any point in the story they aren't just a dupe blindly doing whatever they are told and then either impotently raging or meekly rolling over in submission forgiving anything done against them.

[countdemons]

What good is level syncing, and making use of old zones, of there is still nothing to be gained from going there? What is thr point of having BIS gear for only players who can dedicate the time to Master/NIM raids? Why limit content to only some of your subbed population base? It makes no sense to hold back the game like that.

 

Aye, sorry i forgot. You need bis nim gear to play horrendusly easy "chapters" once, as it has no replay value.

 

The fact that master mode chapters are afk ezzzzz mode even in crappy vendor gear proves this.

 

Hardest content = best gear

Crap keyboards smashing = average gear

 

Not hard concept to understand.

 

Also, why is some content limited to subs? Emm... we pay for the game

Edited January 15, 2018 by countdemons