Letter to the developers: -- Balancing --

[JattaGin]

I didn't fully understand the Kolto Bomb example given by the OP, but I grasp the idea that he wants KB to be more effective when it hits only a few players and less effective when it hits a larger amount of players.

 

This wouldn't be too bad imho.

[DavidAtkinson]

Hey Guys,

 

 

 

In the end, normal pvp does not really makes me fun, not because it's boring, but because you just have to do 25 games until there is a single one, whose output is not decided before. At least that's my problem when I queue with my people and that's not supposed to sound arrogant, but we really win just about any game in the normal pvp, and win 3 vs 8 zerg and so on...... and that's not our special achievement, but the fact owed that the opposing DD does not even make 1k DPS. its boring, its unbelievable how they manage to do so little dps....therefore i go for ranked pvp... but there you have really issues with the current balancing... sad story bro.

 

Also.. I find this part of your post amusing.

 

Like really ? So you que with your people in a premade farming randoms and you say that Unranked is boring for you and that you win every match and that enemy does too little dps. lol

[Tharianus]

Second of all, you have no idea who I am and how I play.

 

 

You are funny first of all you insulted the OP and in your next post you do not want to insulted by an other person

 

Yes and you have no idea who the OP is and you still insulted him - so i can insult you, too and i do not care who you are

 

Third of all, please add some arguments as to why I am wrong, otherwise don't post please because you don't contribute with anything.

 

Do you have any reasonable arguments in your posts here why the OP is wrong?

I think you have A LOOOOOT of reasonable arguments in the upcoming Spoiler Tag :rolleyes: - so why should i bring reasonable arguments if you are not able to do it in the first place?

 

 

Yes OP, only the very vest players should be able to bring out the maximum of sorcerer/sage healers.

 

What you propose sounds like this: let's make it easier for the below avarage skill/clueless players because it's not fair that a good player who spent time learning and practicing his class is so much better. Sorry, but PVP isn't like that.

 

Second, the Marauder.

 

From the way you see Maras it's clear you haven't really played one and got ripped appart quite hard by some top maras in the game.

 

Class is as it should be, friend. It's the most balanced package out there.

 

Damage and Decent survival .

 

Obfuscate was added because the class has very little self heals. It needed something to compensate

 

You know why good maras destory you so easily ? They use their defenses very well. And yeah, mastering that needs practice and dedication.

 

 

Your post about sage healing even if correct will make sage/sorc healers angry.

 

No one cares if they are angry or not they are fotm healers atm and i hope i do not need to tell you why they are fotm right now....

 

Also.. I find this part of your post amusing.

 

Like really ? So you que with your people in a premade farming randoms and you say that Unranked is boring for you and that you win every match and that enemy does too little dps. lol

 

Yeah farming randoms like you is no fun at all

Edited November 19, 2017 by Tharianus

[Tharianus]

I didn't fully understand the Kolto Bomb example given by the OP, but I grasp the idea that he wants KB to be more effective when it hits only a few players and less effective when it hits a larger amount of players.

 

This wouldn't be too bad imho.

 

you are correct mate

make KB more effective on a few players would make the Commando / Merc Healer more viable in Ranked Arenas.

Because Comamando / Merc heal do not have strong AoE Heals.

 

It would not be Overpowered in Raids, too cause healing is splitted on 8 targets instead of 4.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Tharianus

[PorsaLindahl]

They've already shown that they can't "balance" anything. The game is 5 years old. Any balances should have been completed years ago. It comes from constantly raising the level cap and shifting skills/abilities around. They end up tweaking X, so Y becomes useless, which in turn makes Z over powered. Then they come along and nerf A to make C more "in-line" with B, but B was already crap to begin with. Then they make useless abilities needed because they now provide procs or spread DoT's.

 

Look at the dps/heal threads and check their rankings. Those classes have flipped positions everytime their's been an update to abilities. There shouldn't be that much difference between the top and bottom of any of them: 14% difference between top and bottom dps classes, and the differences between the healers is outrageous - (Depending on number of players healed) Sorc/Sage: 397-592 hps, Merc/Comm: 741-790 hps; Op/Scoundrel: 739-615 hps.

 

I don't think they'll ever get it right.

 

At least I have multiples of each class, so I can still play and enjoy myself no matter which one gets hammered into the dirt. I'll always have at least one class that people will always complain about being OP even if the rest are nerfed to hell.

[ichebem]

The only possible way to balance PVE and PVP is to separate to 2 skill trees. After that, devs can balance for PVP freely without making the PVE crowd angry.

 

This is by far the easiest solution, but it would complicate the game. Abilities wouldnt work the same way or deal the same amount of Damage/Heal in PvP/PvE and to explain that ingame could be difficult. Players could get confused, like they get confused with different PvE & PvP Gear....

I mean: All you need to do: Add a specific Buff to each class in PvP, which makes small advantages to their performance.. super easy to rebalance.... and this system exists, we all get a buff when we enter a warzone.. make this Buff class specific... and add things like: "ability x does 5% more damage", or "cooldown of ability y needs 20s longer to refresh"

 

But like mention aboved, this would complicate the game... for some players...

 

I really would support such an Buff-system because its easy to adjust, but i am going to support any other system that improve the balance, too. I just ask for the possibility to help balancing.... because the Dev´s obviously dont have the best ideas and dont know what they change automaticly, when they change X... because you never change a single X; you always change an Y,Z & so on.

 

And like mentioned in the first post: At the moment sth. is happening, we get more often small adjustments than ever before. I believe in change, i believe, that they are trying, now lets get them listening to us. Not because we know everything.... just because: We have good & bad ideas, and we want to share them. And we want Bioware to pick the good ideas, and make good balancing.

 

Thats all. So damn easy.

So just: Pls Support, tell my your opinion. Make proposions. Go for it!

[supertimtaf]

This is by far the easiest solution, but it would complicate the game. Abilities wouldnt work the same way or deal the same amount of Damage/Heal in PvP/PvE and to explain that ingame could be difficult. Players could get confused, like they get confused with different PvE & PvP Gear....

I mean: All you need to do: Add a specific Buff to each class in PvP, which makes small advantages to their performance.. super easy to rebalance.... and this system exists, we all get a buff when we enter a warzone.. make this Buff class specific... and add things like: "ability x does 5% more damage", or "cooldown of ability y needs 20s longer to refresh"

 

But like mention aboved, this would complicate the game... for some players...

 

I really would support such an Buff-system because its easy to adjust, but i am going to support any other system that improve the balance, too. I just ask for the possibility to help balancing.... because the Dev´s obviously dont have the best ideas and dont know what they change automaticly, when they change X... because you never change a single X; you always change an Y,Z & so on.

 

And like mentioned in the first post: At the moment sth. is happening, we get more often small adjustments than ever before. I believe in change, i believe, that they are trying, now lets get them listening to us. Not because we know everything.... just because: We have good & bad ideas, and we want to share them. And we want Bioware to pick the good ideas, and make good balancing.

 

Thats all. So damn easy.

So just: Pls Support, tell my your opinion. Make proposions. Go for it!

 

The major issue I think we currently have is an issue that shouldn't exist in the first place : Feedback and how little it is used. Some other game company who rules some "small" MMO () recently said one thing, which is very, very important in terms of good, interesting and fun gameplay balance, the short version look a bit like this :

 

The thing is, if our metrics and data show us something, but player feedback says the opposite, then we're trusting the playerbase with their feedback. We won't pull something because "we're game developpers, we know what we're doing". -Blizzard

 

And this seem to be a major issue that BW dev team seem to find difficult to understand. Over the last year, the complaints have been huge concerning the balance of this game, both in PvP and in PvE. Each time, players brought in solutions that were decent, solutions that made sense for both a PvE and a PvP point of view. But each time, the balance team rejected those ideas, each time it's always the "trust us, we're developpers, we know how to read our data".

 

Tbh, I don't know if this "data" exist, or if it doesn't. What I see is that most of the changes they've made this year aren't "player-friendly". They aren't made for a better game, they are made to correspond to their metrics and data (which, we all know, can be interpreted in various ways. Everyone can see what he wants to see in said metrics).

 

Until this attitude from the dev team changes, by having real discussion (with actual response you know, not those empty threads they created a while back) with players, by listening to the player feedback first, and by working seriously without any lazyness going on, then we'll be stuck with the game (or in fact the "data") they want us to play, even if it is not an enjoyable experience.

Edited November 20, 2017 by supertimtaf

[Lord_Unterhemd]

The major issue I think we currently have is an issue that shouldn't exist in the first place : Feedback and how little it is used. Some other game company who rules some "small" MMO () recently said one thing, which is very, very important in terms of good, interesting and fun gameplay balance, the short version look a bit like this :

 

The thing is, if our metrics and data show us something, but player feedback says the opposite, then we're trusting the playerbase with their feedback. We won't pull something because "we're game developpers, we know what we're doing". -Blizzard

 

And this seem to be a major issue that BW dev team seem to find difficult to understand. Over the last year, the complaints have been huge concerning the balance of this game, both in PvP and in PvE. Each time, players brought in solutions that were decent, solutions that made sense for both a PvE and a PvP point of view. But each time, the balance team rejected those ideas, each time it's always the "trust us, we're developpers, we know how to read our data".

 

Tbh, I don't know if this "data" exist, or if it doesn't. What I see is that most of the changes they've made this year aren't "player-friendly". They aren't made for a better game, they are made to correspond to their metrics and data (which, we all know, can be interpreted in various ways. Everyone can see what he wants to see in said metrics).

 

Until this attitude from the dev team changes, by having real discussion (with actual response you know, not those empty threads they created a while back) with players, by listening to the player feedback first, and by working seriously without any lazyness going on, then we'll be stuck with the game (or in fact the "data") they want us to play, even if it is not an enjoyable experience.

 

I couldn't agree more to what you just said mate. The core problem of balancing in this game has always been a Dev-Team that couldn't give a single **** about player opinions. In the past 6 years, there were SO MANY posts in which players tried to reason and actually HELP the Dev-Team to improve this game, but they just didn't care, because their philosophy is the complete opposite of that what you just quoted.

 

Now the funny thing is, that swtor is just a WoW copycat in several areas and "features". I personally don't understand, why they constantly try to copy the most successful MMO there is, but fail to look at their Developers philosophy.

 

Now to say something about the idea of separated balancing for PvE and PvP:

 

Blizzard had a very simple solution for this in WoW. They simply changed how some abilities worked in PvE/Questing and in PvP and WROTE A NOTE INSIDE THE TOOLTIPS of said abilities.

 

For example: "Ability X does Y amount of healing and provides a procc that increases Z's critical chance by 30%. In PvP, this procc only provides 20%."

 

Another Example: They changed the way how critical hits worked. In PvE your critical strikes increased the damage dealt by the ability by 100%, so you did double the damage. In PvP the critical strikes only deal 50% more damage.

 

And to be honest, if a player is not able to read the tooltips of his spells and abilities, then he can't be considered "average", he can't even be considered "below average". Players who fail at reading their abilities are bad and always will be, unless they gain some intelligence at some point.

 

So the issue with balancing PvE/PvP through seperate skill mechanics (in the way of buffing/nerfing specific proccs etc. for the different Gametypes) is not a problem of making the game more complex than it is now. It is actually reducing its complexity through being more transparent with the gamemodes and what effects certain skills will have in PvP.

 

But that is just my opinion, I might be wrong, I might be right, feel free to discuss about it.

 

tl;dr: I approve of this thread and what sparks is trying to achieve!

 

/thumbs up.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Lord_Unterhemd

[PorsaLindahl]

I couldn't agree more to what you just said mate. The core problem of balancing in this game has always been a Dev-Team that couldn't give a single **** about player opinions. In the past 6 years, there were SO MANY posts in which players tried to reason and actually HELP the Dev-Team to improve this game, but they just didn't care, because their philosophy is the complete opposite of that what you just quoted.

 

Now the funny thing is, that swtor is just a WoW copycat in several areas and "features". I personally don't understand, why they constantly try to copy the most successful MMO there is, but fail to look at their Developers philosophy.

 

Now to say something about the idea of separated balancing for PvE and PvP:

 

Blizzard had a very simple solution for this in WoW. They simply changed how some abilities worked in PvE/Questing and in PvP and WROTE A NOTE INSIDE THE TOOLTIPS of said abilities.

 

For example: "Ability X does Y amount of healing and provides a procc that increases Z's critical chance by 30%. In PvP, this procc only provides 20%."

 

Another Example: They changed the way how critical hits worked. In PvE your critical strikes increased the damage dealt by the ability by 100%, so you did double the damage. In PvP the critical strikes only deal 50% more damage.

 

And to be honest, if a player is not able to read the tooltips of his spells and abilities, then he can't be considered "average", he can't even be considered "below average". Players who fail at reading their abilities are bad and always will be, unless they gain some intelligence at some point.

 

So the issue with balancing PvE/PvP through seperate skill mechanics (in the way of buffing/nerfing specific proccs etc. for the different Gametypes) is not a problem of making the game more complex than it is now. It is actually reducing its complexity through being more transparent with the gamemodes and what effects certain skills will have in PvP.

 

But that is just my opinion, I might be wrong, I might be right, feel free to discuss about it.

 

tl;dr: I approve of this thread and what sparks is trying to achieve!

 

/thumbs up.

 

If I had a dime for every time someone said this game, or any other game, was a "rip-off" or "clone" of WoW, I'd retire. I don't even know where to begin to repudiate your statements, so I'll just leave it at "hahahaha."

[supertimtaf]

I couldn't agree more to what you just said mate. The core problem of balancing in this game has always been a Dev-Team that couldn't give a single **** about player opinions. In the past 6 years, there were SO MANY posts in which players tried to reason and actually HELP the Dev-Team to improve this game, but they just didn't care, because their philosophy is the complete opposite of that what you just quoted.

 

Now the funny thing is, that swtor is just a WoW copycat in several areas and "features". I personally don't understand, why they constantly try to copy the most successful MMO there is, but fail to look at their Developers philosophy.

 

Now to say something about the idea of separated balancing for PvE and PvP:

 

Blizzard had a very simple solution for this in WoW. They simply changed how some abilities worked in PvE/Questing and in PvP and WROTE A NOTE INSIDE THE TOOLTIPS of said abilities.

 

For example: "Ability X does Y amount of healing and provides a procc that increases Z's critical chance by 30%. In PvP, this procc only provides 20%."

 

Another Example: They changed the way how critical hits worked. In PvE your critical strikes increased the damage dealt by the ability by 100%, so you did double the damage. In PvP the critical strikes only deal 50% more damage.

 

And to be honest, if a player is not able to read the tooltips of his spells and abilities, then he can't be considered "average", he can't even be considered "below average". Players who fail at reading their abilities are bad and always will be, unless they gain some intelligence at some point.

 

So the issue with balancing PvE/PvP through seperate skill mechanics (in the way of buffing/nerfing specific proccs etc. for the different Gametypes) is not a problem of making the game more complex than it is now. It is actually reducing its complexity through being more transparent with the gamemodes and what effects certain skills will have in PvP.

 

But that is just my opinion, I might be wrong, I might be right, feel free to discuss about it.

 

tl;dr: I approve of this thread and what sparks is trying to achieve!

 

/thumbs up.

 

Well, something that peoples here and developpers seem to forget, and something which is totally different from WoW, is that swtor doesn't need "different damage" in PvE and PvP. You will never win a duel in PvP because you hit harder than your opponent, what will decide if you survive or not is the way you use your defensive ability.

Each time there has been a need to adjust damage in PvP, then the damage was also over the top in PvE.

In the end, utility balance will affect PvP way more than it affect PvE, and damage balance will affect PvE way more than it affect PvP. The issue isn't that they cannot keep a balance between PvE and PvP tbh, it's more that the balance in PvE or in PvP itself is bad. It isn't that hard to tweak some utility or eventually nerf the damage done by some other ability, while allowing a more stable energy regeneration... But no, they can't seem to do that right.

 

But I don't suspect they do it intentionally, imo it's more that they don't know how this game works, they don't know how to play it and try to refer to some magical numbers to compensate for it. The main issue again is that those numbers can be interpreted in various ways, and most of the time don't represent the average player at all, nor do they represent the good player. That's where the main issue come from.

[LordTurin]

I still think they should just balance around PVE, and then bring expertise back. Just change the max expertise for each spec to bring them into balance (i.e. spec heals too strong in pvp? max expertise is 1750 instead of 2018. Arsenal Mercs too strong? Max expertise 1675 etc.)

[Liquor]

All AOE abilities should heal and damage everyone within range.

 

So if you drop orbital on a group, and a friendly is standing there, it takes damage as well.

 

If you drop an area heal, both teammates and the enemy get the heal.

 

 

Current mechancs makes it seem like kolto waves and other AOE abilities are racist. They only impact a certain type of player.

 

 

If you want balance, that door must swing both ways.

[Kirtastropohe]

If the Devs are insistent on dumbing down and simplifying things then they should really embrace that philosophy...and the simplest thing to understand is that it's not possible to put a square peg into a round hole. The fundamental problem of SWTOR is the devs chasing the unattainable goal of one system that works for both PvP and PvE.

 

It isn't possible. They are different worlds. One is player against NPCs, where things can be very much controlled, while the other is players against players...an environment will where people will adapt, use things in ways other than intended, and be teaming up against others.

 

Having different stats for abilities in PvP as opposed to PvE would be best, but the devs have clearly stated they will never go to that model. Given that bolster is also here to stay, the only method of separating PvP from PvE is to have one type use different gear from the other. Personally, I think it's easier to have PvP use the separate set of gear and go back to expertise stat. It's a way to have a set of gear that could control the PvP experience through both expertise and the set bonus attached to the PvP gear. And by all means, devs, have tiers of it so there is bit of a grind since a lot of PvPers aren't into PvE.

 

Have a class that is broken for PvP because the devs had to increase their performance for PvE, such as Mercs? Then change how they do in WZs by decreasing the expertise they get, both from bolster and the PvP expertise gear, and further gimp by the set bonus. Have a class that inherently underperforms? Do the opposite. And when that formerly gimped class becomes the new flavor of the month, alter the values of the FOTM class so that they are lower than what they are at the OP state but higher than the original stats that made them gimped.

 

Even this system would be a lot of work for them, but it would be better than trying this system where we have a teeter totter...one end PvP and the other PvE...and the devs constantly trying to run to one side or the other to balance the beam when there doesn't seem to be a way for them to get to a point of balance that can work.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Kirtastropohe

[ichebem]

there have been so much good postings in that thread, and so much truth was spoken.

Just waiting for more response... espacially by the Devs.

[xordevoreaux]

All AOE abilities should heal and damage everyone within range.

 

So if you drop orbital on a group, and a friendly is standing there, it takes damage as well.

 

Anyone tossing friendly fire in my direction when there's enough to put up with the enemy would wind up on my ignore list.

[AlrikFassbauer]

The thing is, if our metrics and data show us something, but player feedback says the opposite, then we're trusting the playerbase with their feedback. We won't pull something because "we're game developpers, we know what we're doing". -Blizzard

 

Reminds me of how much data is collected about us in RL.

[supertimtaf]

Reminds me of how much data is collected about us in RL.

 

Lol, it isn't that hard right now to collect informations on the internet yeah. :')

Anyone can do that tbh, but again, what matters is how will you use those data.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Lol, it isn't that hard right now to collect informations on the internet yeah. :')

Anyone can do that tbh, but again, what matters is how will you use those data.

 

Yeah, but I'm not even talking about this alone. I'm rather about customer data, mined by corporations.

[supertimtaf]

Yeah, but I'm not even talking about this alone. I'm rather about customer data, mined by corporations.

 

Well, remember the thing that peoples accept without reading ?

I don't remember the english name, sadly.

But yeah, basically as long as you agreed to this, there could be anything inside who could allow someone to legally spy on you.

Was that part of the american dream too ?

[Yamahara]

Lol at Guardian Survivability. Guardian/jugg dps drops easy in ranked. They are not even viable in ranked unless it's a tank.

To provide a tl.dr of your post

 

1. Op is an average skill level player who has played for quite a while
   
2. Kolto Bomb (Merc/Com Heal) heals for a set amount that is then split depending on how many players it hits
   
3. Sage/Sorcerer is difficult to play as healers run out of force
   
4. Guardian has too high mobility, survivability and damage output.
   Gunslinger has way too many defensive cooldowns and is too far ahead in damage.
   

 

My comments is that both your problems and solutions are not based on reality, kolto bomb doesn't need a rework, the healing potential of mercs is already where it should be following the reconfigurations in the latest patch. Their AoE healing is already covered partly through Kolto Bomb and Progressive Scan, the rework you suggest isn't needed cause it isn't a problem in the first place.

 

Your comments regarding Sage, Guardian and Gunslinger are simply based on experiance from either observing or playing the classes with a far below average skill. It's true that the readjustments made Sage healer a bit more difficult to heal with, but the lack of resources that you exemplify simply illustrates inexperience with the class and "rotation". The same can be said about your comments regarding Guardian and Gunslinger, sure they can be annoying if you have no idea to correctly fight them in a PvP environment, but apart from the skank tank-guardian (which is a separate issue you don't address at all) neither of the classes arehardly in need of a nerf in PvP based on your factors.

 

I doubt you will get a reply or even a read through from any of the developers, not only are the issues that you want to address not issues in the first place and your suggestions would create a bunch of new problems. The key issue is how you have structured your post and how you formulate your thinking, it's next to impossible to follow any type of red thread in your arguing.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Yamahara

[LordArtemis]

IMO the ONLY solution is a separate rule set. That is the only way that anything resembling balance is going to be achieved in either playstyle.

 

Once PVP and PVE are separated, it will be far easier to balance both, as changes to one will not effect the other, the reason IMO that balance is an impossibility at present.

 

All one has to do is look at the LONG HISTORY of balance changes over the course of this game to see the proof.