Please Increase/Remove Guild Member Cap With Merges

[UlaVii]

I'm pretty sure there are performance/db issues involved.

...

The first one is common sense when you know at least anything about IT. I guess you don't.

Again, I ask for your source that says databases can't efficiently handle queries with more than 1000 results or for you to explain it using what you class as common sense. Regardless, there is nothing saying that they would have to return 10,000 results in one pass, they could use database paging to only pull 1k results at a time and then display that as a pageable guild panel similar to how they do with the guild stronghold keys panel and the GTN terminal i.e. left/right page buttons. They could also provide a guild panel search filter that works on name, legacy and member note.

 

The other points...we will end up in a few mega guilds sooner or later. What a stupid thing to wish for.

So you are saying that it would be better if we create 2-3 active guilds on our server because that would be better than a single guild?

Edited February 6, 2018 by UlaVii

[DWho]

The biggest issue with really big guilds is that they lose the social aspect. Either they become completely filled with alts or people are invited to them just to "fill out the roles" or just to provide a source of conquest points. If you could convince me that really big guilds could maintain that community atmosphere, and I have been in several that were 1000 members and guild chat was completely silent even with dozens online (and no they were not in Teamspeak, chat, or other voice mode either) so that is a hard sell, I might be supportive of this. Large guilds are very impersonal.

 

If it is about alts, which is what this all seems to be about, then they should set the actual member limit lower and allow unlimited alts (and restructure Conquest so alt heavy guilds don't have a massive advantage).

[UlaVii]

Either they become completely filled with alts or people are invited to them just to "fill out the roles" or just to provide a source of conquest points.

That's a big generalization. None of those apply to my guild and I like to think there are other big guilds out there which fall outside of these classifications.

[DWho]

That's a big generalization. None of those apply to my guild and I like to think there are other big guilds out there which fall outside of these classifications.

 

It may not be true of all big guilds but it has been my experience (several times over) and it is that experience that creates a general dislike of very large guilds by me. I commend you if you have been able to avoid these issues but I fear your guild may be the exception rather than the rule..

Edited February 7, 2018 by DWho

[Khaleg]

The biggest issue with really big guilds is that they lose the social aspect. Either they become completely filled with alts or people are invited to them just to "fill out the roles" or just to provide a source of conquest points. If you could convince me that really big guilds could maintain that community atmosphere, and I have been in several that were 1000 members and guild chat was completely silent even with dozens online (and no they were not in Teamspeak, chat, or other voice mode either) so that is a hard sell, I might be supportive of this. Large guilds are very impersonal.

 

If it is about alts, which is what this all seems to be about, then they should set the actual member limit lower and allow unlimited alts (and restructure Conquest so alt heavy guilds don't have a massive advantage).

 

In most, I would go as far to say all, cases this is true, despite ignorant people claiming it's not the case. It's of course nothing that can be avoided by anyone so trying to claim otherwise is dumb^10, because really large guilds, and nobody needs a guild with let's say more than100, max 200 accounts, are by their nature unsocial to a large degree - you could compare it to people living in a skyscraper or megacity where almost nobody knows anyone else who's living there as well. Saying it's not true is absolutely stupid and ignorant, but people claiming otherwise want mega guidls for the very reasons you listed here, so they need to grasp for "arguments" lol.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Khaleg

[Khaleg]

We already had Harbinger be plagued with a omega guild for the longest time as it is, where they took up to six planets every single conquest, and normally won at least bare minimum four of those. Most of the time they would be the ONLY guild winning across the board, so if you wanted conquest titles, you HAD to join them. Omega guilds are already a thing, and it would be 10x better for them to be all merged into one guild rather than three, and this is coming from someone who's server has been ruled by a single guild for two years now.

 

EDIT- /signed or whatever to show my support for this .

 

KK, I see, that's also a way to view at it - but that brings my favorite game change into the equation: That one account can only be in one guild per faction. That would solve a lot of things, also get rid of the pathetic conquest title leechers with no pride whatsoever. That together with a reasonable account limit per guild would make the game much more honest and straight forward imho. I hate patheitc opportunists with no honor at all with all my heart. :-)

Edited February 7, 2018 by Khaleg

[Khaleg]

Again, I ask for your source that says databases can't efficiently handle queries with more than 1000 results or for you to explain it using what you class as common sense. Regardless, there is nothing saying that they would have to return 10,000 results in one pass, they could use database paging to only pull 1k results at a time and then display that as a pageable guild panel similar to how they do with the guild stronghold keys panel and the GTN terminal i.e. left/right page buttons. They could also provide a guild panel search filter that works on name, legacy and member note.

 

 

So you are saying that it would be better if we create 2-3 active guilds on our server because that would be better than a single guild?

 

You have no clue about IT, no need to underline it a second time.. I got it already.

Do you know why they don't increase tabs in the legacy bank? For the very same reason. Their database can't handle more and is on it's limit with 6 tabs already.

It might be surprising to you but other people realize this stuff.

[DeannaVoyager]

The biggest issue with really big guilds is that they lose the social aspect. Either they become completely filled with alts or people are invited to them just to "fill out the roles" or just to provide a source of conquest points. If you could convince me that really big guilds could maintain that community atmosphere, and I have been in several that were 1000 members and guild chat was completely silent even with dozens online (and no they were not in Teamspeak, chat, or other voice mode either) so that is a hard sell, I might be supportive of this. Large guilds are very impersonal..

 

Wow.. just wow... I have only been in one big guild with 1000 members, and my experience is the exact opposite. I have never before been so busy doing different things with my guildies than I am now. Whether it's server events, operations, flashpoints, pvp, or chatting in team speak with mates while farming mats on some planet. I am never alone, unless i want to. I have no idea how you have managed to find "several" unsocial guilds with 1000 members, especially since there are only a few really big guilds, but.I wish you better luck in the future.

 

The only thing more I want, is to bring more of my alts to the guild so that my friends would find me easier.

[UlaVii]

I'm pretty sure there are performance/db issues involved.

common sense when you know at least anything about IT. I guess you don't.

You have no clue about IT, no need to underline it a second time.. I got it already.

Do you know why they don't increase tabs in the legacy bank? For the very same reason. Their database can't handle more and is on it's limit with 6 tabs already.

It might be surprising to you but other people realize this stuff.

You seem very good at throwing insults and making assumptions but so far you have not provided any facts despite me asking you multiple times to state your sources. Could you link to the relevant document on the Oracle site that indicates why it would be unable to handle more than 1000 records or why database paging would not work here as it currently does with other aspects of the game?

 

My thoughts are that asking for a general unlimited size of guilds is totally bs, ignorant and not even marginally thought through - it's bad for the game for several and obvious reasons

Why do you believe large guilds are bad for the game? You say there are several obvious reasons so how about you clearly state those for the rest of us?

 

In most, I would go as far to say all, cases this is true, despite ignorant people claiming it's not the case. It's of course nothing that can be avoided by anyone so trying to claim otherwise is dumb^10, because really large guilds, and nobody needs a guild with let's say more than100, max 200 accounts, are by their nature unsocial to a large degree - you could compare it to people living in a skyscraper or megacity where almost nobody knows anyone else who's living there as well. Saying it's not true is absolutely stupid and ignorant, but people claiming otherwise want mega guidls for the very reasons you listed here, so they need to grasp for "arguments" lol.

Just because that is what you think about large guilds, it does not mean all are like that. My guild has over 500 active accounts in any two week period with over half of those being here for over a year and many over 3 years. I am not saying every guild member knows every other guild member but there are lots of groups of friends and these groups have crossovers with the others. We have people that leave the game due to lack of content but then they return months later saying they missed our guild and want to rejoin. We pride ourselves on being social and do a lot to promote a vibrant community both inside guild and out. I am not "grasping for arguments" as I made this thread due to my guild having a genuine requirement for a larger cap.

 

I sure think bigger guilds would be very unhealthy for the game.

KK, I see, that's also a way to view at it - but that brings my favorite game change into the equation: That one account can only be in one guild per faction. That would solve a lot of things, also get rid of the pathetic conquest title leechers with no pride whatsoever. That together with a reasonable account limit per guild would make the game much more honest and straight forward imho. I hate patheitc opportunists with no honor at all with all my heart. :-)

How disappointing. Sadly it seems your motivation against a cap increase is because you are one of the people obsessed with conquest when my request has nothing to do with a number on a scoreboard. I am asking for a cap increase because it is what my guild members require to enjoy the game the way they want to play. It's frustrating for them to keep having to get their alts re-invited so they can play with their guild mates from within the guild. Sure they can play from outside the guild but then they miss out on guild chat and group invites etc.

 

I am not against them swapping the 1000 character limit for a 1000 account limit with unlimited alts. I just don't believe that swapping the character cap for a member cap is going to improve the chances for guilds like yours to win at conquest. If a guild has 1000 active members then there is a good chance they are going to score higher than a guild with 100 active members with 10 alts each. I'm not saying it's impossible, just that long term it will take more work from the 100.

 

we will end up in a few mega guilds sooner or later. What a stupid thing to wish for.

Are saying that we should create 2-3 active guilds on our server because that would be better than a single guild?

 

I honestly hope you spend some time writing meaningful replies to my questions as we all feel more intelligent after reading your posts.

[Fatleaf]

Khaleg, So far all you have done is spout your PERSONAL opinion and nothing more. You have not presented any facts and then made the accusation that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and the way you express yourself is quite distasteful.

 

You claim the database would not be able to handle it and claim to know what you are talking about and the only evidence you give of this is an assumption about the Legacy and personal cargo hold having 6 bays. You give no specifics as to how the SWTOR database works or even how you understand how the database works with Biowares program. You just claim to know IT.

 

Then when people hold a different OPINION to you, you use phrases like these:

"The first one is common sense when you know at least anything about IT. I guess you don't

- Not very polite.

 

In most, I would go as far to say all, cases this is true, despite ignorant people claiming it's not the case.

- So, you start with "I would go as far to say" - This is YOUR PERSONAL opinion. Then you claim anyone not holding your personal opinion is ignorant!

 

Then you continue with your personal opinion with a rather weak analogy of a skyscraper. A skyscraper doesn't have Scraper Chat under /s. A Guild has Guild chat and my guild is VERY active. People living in a Skyscraper all live separate lives, people in a Guild are all doing the same content and going to the same places. Personal opinion does not constitute FACTUAL EVIDENCE.

 

but that brings my favorite game change into the equation: That one account can only be in one guild per faction

And here we have your whole argumentation. You have an agenda to push, which is your favourite change you wish to happen. Out of all the things that need to be introduced, fixed or balanced in this game for you one account per guild per faction is the main issue. And to really stamp how badly you want this you use some very strong language: "I hate patheitc opportunists with no honor at all with all my heart." - To hate something with all your heart is VERY strong language. And to say you hate someone else without presenting any real evidence, only because they hold a different opinion to you, is talk that many an extremist has spouted.

[aryss]

In most, I would go as far to say all, cases this is true, despite ignorant people claiming it's not the case. It's of course nothing that can be avoided by anyone so trying to claim otherwise is dumb^10, because really large guilds, and nobody needs a guild with let's say more than100, max 200 accounts, are by their nature unsocial to a large degree - you could compare it to people living in a skyscraper or megacity where almost nobody knows anyone else who's living there as well. Saying it's not true is absolutely stupid and ignorant, but people claiming otherwise want mega guidls for the very reasons you listed here, so they need to grasp for "arguments" lol.

 

When you resort to insulting people you don't even know, mate, the only thing you accomplish is to make clear to all who reads your posts that you have no arguments whatsoever and that it's you who's grasping to find one.

While conquests are useful to a guild's social life, because they bring people together to try and achieve a common goal, they are not essential.

There are many in the game that don't care about conquest, but they do care about their guildmates.

I've been following this thread since the beginning and I've never seen Ula say something about wanting to get more people to win conquests more easily, because that's not his point, at all.

The point is that a GM should not be forced to purge his guild every 15 days - at most! - of the less used alts just to be able to free space for other players that would like to join the guild.

 

And all the arguments I've seen about how removing the cap would be unfair towards smaller guilds makes no sense: if a guild can't get more than a 100 members - with any number of alts involved - then it's pretty clear that they're not taking full advantage of the current cap, so why should it pose a problem if the cap gets removed?

Competing in a conquest - because apparantely this is all you and many others in this thread cares about, as if the game revolves only around that - against a 1000 members guild or a 10.000 members guild is not gonna change anything at all if they can't even get to half the cap *now*.

Edited February 7, 2018 by aryss

[merovejec]

You seem very good at throwing insults and making assumptions but so far you have not provided any facts

 

Khaleg, So far all you have done is spout your PERSONAL opinion and nothing more. You have not presented any facts

 

lol I mean come on guys, who DOES have facts here? No one, only Bioware, so we can only discuss here with OUR OWN OPINIONS, nothing else.

 

I would also say that the limit of 1000 is enough, with the game not doing so well thats pretty much a solid number or else we will all end up in one BIG guild. Its true that big guilds dominate conquest, farming commanders etc. nothing a small guild can do about it. The big guilds even communicate with each other whose turn it is for what. Increasing the limit will only make it worse.

 

I would leave it as it is, at least the Guildmaster and officers will make sure only the relevant people are in the guild and manage it more.

[psandak]

Khaleg's arguments are invalid but there is something he has yet to mention that is valid: flipping a switch and expanding a section of a database can have unforeseen consequences. Sure they could flip the switch and probably make a lot of what we see as limiting unlimited (legacy cargo tabs, guild membership, etc), but what we do not know is what will happen when they do that.

 

Think back to when maximum stack size was 99 rather than what it is now, 9999. The original intention was to only go to 999, but they went to 9999 instead. Why did this happy circumstance happen? A couple of obvious possibilities: during testing someone fatfingered a key and by luck it did not break the system; or they got it working at 999 and decided to attempt to try 9999. If the latter, they may have even attempted 99999 and discovered that broke the system in some way. The same thing can be said of any expansion of capacity. Legacy cargo was originally 4 tabs and it was expanded to 6; they probably tested 7 and discovered it broke things and so we are limited to 6. That does not mean we can never have 7 or more legacy cargo tabs or a stack size of 99999, but it does mean that there are more challenges to overcome.

 

Lastly, for all we know they may be testing 2500 member capacity as we speak, but like any good developer they do not announce what they are working on until they are reasonably sure they can make it happen; announcing something is "in the works" before that reasonable assurance line is bad practice because it guarantees that even though you say: "we are working on implementing X, but we do not know when or if it will be made available," a segment of the population will interpret that statement incorrectly and say: "You promised X, where is it?"

 

SIDE NOTE: that is probably why we only get a three month road map; that amount of time is what they can reasonably assure will happen.

[exfell]

Can I ask here why would I leave either of the small guilds I play with to join a big one if the member cap is removed?

I mean, I can join a large guild now if I want to. Why would I want it more after such a change?

 

One account being able to join only one guild per side I dislike though. One guild speaks my native language, I like that but they are not very active. Another one is very but operates in a different laguage. What good would it be for the game if I had to choose?

[Khaleg]

Can I ask here why would I leave either of the small guilds I play with to join a big one if the member cap is removed?

I mean, I can join a large guild now if I want to. Why would I want it more after such a change?

 

One account being able to join only one guild per side I dislike though. One guild speaks my native language, I like that but they are not very active. Another one is very but operates in a different laguage. What good would it be for the game if I had to choose?

 

Well, I would favor this because people actually would need to grow up, be straight forward and need to make a decision - what would be a plus for the whole guild and faction compettion setup.

What is now going on because anyone can join a trazillion guilds is just ridiculous. The game as a whole would be more honest with this change - one part of it is to get rid of or reduce pathetic conquest title (or other achievement ) leechers who join guilds with alts just to leech achievements because they are unwilling or incapable to form guilds who are able to on their own (or grown up enough to accept it that they can't get it).

These people are as cheap and pathetic as it gets in my eyes. This change with one account/1 guild (or 1 per faction/guild) would make the whole them vs. us setup and competition worth anything. Today it's worth literally NOTHING, is dishonest and opens easy ways for dishonest, pathetic and opportunistic losers with no honor and pride whatsoever. I don't think this is good for this game or general gameplay to begin with.

I guess you need to have a grown up and honest attitude to be able to follow my argument here and see the plus for the game and gameplay as a whole. To actually have to make a decisioon in game and stand for something has a value in itself and, again, would make the whole game and competition setup better and worth at least something (while it is worth nothing at all now) and would bring a hard time for pathetitc opportunists, people I despise with all my heart as you can guess from my writing. :-)

Edited February 9, 2018 by Khaleg

[DeannaVoyager]

Wow, that's a lot of hatred towards people who just disagree with you. I really don't know if I should laugh or feel pity for you. Apparently I've missed you signature so far, but seeing that you are a GM of your own guild, I can understand why you don't want any big guilds around you: you want yours to be the Biggest One in the galaxy.

 

Also, devs have not said, that if the guild cap would be account based, that it would restrict people from joining more than one guilds. Because that would also mean that you would have to choose which faction you want to join a guild with, or have two accounts: one for imp side, one for rep. That would make no sense.

 

Oh and one more note. I am currently in 2 guild on imp side. I would make it only one, but I don't play all my alts all the time, so I have to keep them in another guild. I am not "leeching" anything from the bigger guild. I am contributing every day of the week, at least a few hours a day to guild events. I would join the big one with all my alts if that would be possible. So I'm guessing you're just upset with some of your own guildies who are not totally committed to you and obviously toxic personality, but are too scared to confront them: instead you come here and accuse everyone else. Awesome.

[BigBoppa]

increasing the member cap should have been done 4y ago already. or cap the account numbers and not the toons

[ShadowGovernator]

I am looking forward to the removal of the guild member cap in tomorrow's server maintenance down-time.

[Fatleaf]

Would have been nice to receive some news in the road map about this.

[DWho]

Would have been nice to receive some news in the road map about this.

 

They probably wanted to work out the changes to Conquest first. Now they will likely evaluate if there are any negative impacts to increasing maximum guild size.

[Azreail]

From Keith's Road map:

Hey everyone,

[snip]

A new Conquest Vendor will appear for those who complete their personal conquests each week. It’ll initially have Decorations and a new Companion boost called the Commander’s Compendium which will increase your active companion to influence level 50. More on this below.

 

[snip]

 

Commander’s Compendium – We are introducing a new companion gift that can immediately raise the influence level of your companion to 50, but it’s expensive, requires some crafting, and requires you to complete your Personal Conquest objectives before you can purchase it from the vendor.

 

--- Keith

 

 

I don't think it's an unreasonable assumption that this Commander's Compendium will be BoP not BoL, so if I want it on "Bob" I will have to complete my conquest on "Bob" - I won't be able to complete my conquest on "Mike" and use "Mike" to buy one and then mail/legacy bank it over to "Bob".

 

This implies that any character you want to buy a Commander's Compendium on, will also need to complete at least one conquest on. It's possible that you can maybe buy more than one per week, so let's assume the good scenario where you only have to do it once with a particular toon to buy as many as you like. This still means that *every* character you have where you want to boost a companion (or might want to in the future) must complete conquest at least once.

 

Sure you can complete a personal conquest with an un-guilded toon, but it will take more work since you won't be invading a planet and therefore won't have any extra bonuses to any of the objectives so it will take both more time and more work to cap. A small guild with a flagship can achieve this more easily (as long as they invade), but many people will want to be getting both the personal and guild rewards for capping, so there will be more drive for people to get alts into bigger/more conquest-y guilds who can make top 10.

 

And now think about the people who have lots of alts - they're not going to want to cycle a couple of alts per week in and out of the bigger/conquest-y guild they belong to, they're going to want to dump many/all of them in at once on a week they can cap super easily and the demand for spaces in such guilds will be even greater.

 

Plus, people won't want to risk their toons being kicked from such guilds, making it harder to potentially get this Compendium in the future, even if they don't want one *right now*. Many will hedge their bets and do the bare minimum to remain in these guilds, which means fewer people will be removed, fewer spaces, higher demand etc.

 

This doesn't even consider the (frankly very unpleasant) idea that you can only buy one Compendium per conquest completed, so if I want 8 companions at 50 influence on "Bob", I must complete my personal conquest 8 times on "Bob". Of course this depends on what "expensive" means in terms of mats, cash etc., and the mechanics of what and how permanent the purchase criteria are (e.g. "complete once to buy now and any time forever" versus "you must have completed conquest during the current conquest week, does the pruchase require the personal conquest reward mats and in what quantity).

 

Of course, this does all assume that it isn't a retroactive thing where there's a line of code somewhere that says "Bob completed a conquest once in August 2015 so Bob can immediately buy as many Compendiums as he wishes"... But how likely is it that BW are introducing a new thing to "encourage" us to grind more, only to make it so many people immediately meet the requirements and don't have to grind for even a moment?

 

 

 

TL,DR This thread wasn't originally about conquest at all, it was about people being able to put all/many of their alts in one place for the sake of convenience/socialising. With BW's introduction of the Commander's Compendium and tying it directly to conquest, it is now even more important for BW to consider raising the cap or making it accounts not characters. Yes the Compendium requires personal conquest not guild, but the people who want to pay to shortcut levelling companion influence with one click are probably also going to want to make the minimum effort to complete their personal conquest... and that means being in a guild for the objective bonuses.

=> BW just ensured that spaces in big/conquest-y guilds will be even more at a premium than they are now.

[UlaVii]

Just to reiterate why I suggested 10k as the new minimum cap. My guild currently has around 500 active members.

 

 

• If each of them has 2 characters in guild then we will be at 1000 (current cap)
  
• If each of them has 5 characters in guild then we will be at 2500
  
• If each of them has 8 characters in guild then we will be at 4000
  
• If each of them has 12 characters in guild then we will be at 6000
  

 

That space gets quickly goggled up plus keep in mind some people are legion with 20+ characters. Sure they don't play them all but it doesn't stop them wanting them under the same roof. The guild limit should of been increased to keep it in step with the increased server character slot implemented during the merge phase (100). We have a few in the 45+ range but I'm not sure about 100.

 

I still support the idea of having 1k-2k max accounts with unlimited characters.

 

Either way something has to be done as it's not fair to people who have to keep repeating the kick/join cycle.

Edited February 19, 2018 by UlaVii

[UlaVii]

I made this thrilling video to demonstrate what takes place 2-3 times a week to cope with the current member cap:

 

 

Whenever I remove an inactive main character from guild due to us needing to free up room I send them a mail explaining that if they return to the game and want to rejoin the guild then they can contact me or an officer for a re-invite. At some point a dev made the design decision: "Let's add a 1-2 minute delay between mailing different people, that will be useful to avoid spam". That decision came at the price of us being able to handle basic guild admin tasks politely or for utilising it to encourage communication to our guild members with in-game guild news mails. Having a rank option for "Can mass mail" would be cool so we could have a guild member who writes our news and has "Everyone" as a mail "To:" option which would mail everybody in guild.

[UlaVii]

Lots more people cast out into the storm because Bioware refuse to increase the cap:

 

 

It will be interesting to see which set of complaints Bioware enjoys more; me and the other people in this thread or the ones that will be upset if/when we launch a fully active 2nd active guild meaning we invade two planets each week. I'll be sure to point them to this thread so they can see that it was not my first choice to go that route

[louisreis]

OMG is this still a thing? well Bioware since your not giving us master mode on the new op you freed yourself some time so you can increase the guild cap!! no excuses now!!!!!

 

#uniteourcharacters