An honest conversation: Future Operation development is not feasible.

[Quraswren]

Well, since this seems to be the core of your "proof", let me blow a few holes in it for you with a list of reasons why someone might create a character and then never progress it past Coruscant.

SNIP....

 

Well as long as were checking truths.

 

No matter the reason for created and then deleting character (or even saving them). An exceedingly small number of them were created for story.

 

It's abundantly clear story wasn't driving them to any great degree. The numbers are simply to far off. The ship is obtained to soon in the story. 50 million characters and only 6.8 of them bothered to make it to level 15 or so. Even if those characters are everything mentioned from back toons to created and delted. The numbers are to vastly far to claim story was the way to keep gamers. And this was at launch when it was new barely finishing the 1st expansion and people were still not creating toons to see the story. Doing everything but see the story with those toons it seems.

 

But again. Even if that wasn't enough information for you. You only have to take a look at kotfe/kotet/iokath and how it compares to launch. Similar situation for failure expect this time, instead of assuming sotry and little end game was enough. bioware thought story and old, stale rehashed end game would do it. Once again, they were wrong on story and wrong with end game. While story has a chance to gets people to the game, it will never hold them. Just like at launch and just like kotfe/kotet/iokath

 

The numbers are indeed telling.

 

We can only hope that is not true, but that really seems to be the case.

 

If they could at least stick to some kind of consistency it would be a bonus, this constant zigzagging just leaves everyone frustrated.

 

Agreed. Can only hope the damage is not to much for even SW to recover from but I'm just not so sure now.

The more resource are talked about. What bioware would really have to accomplish to turn things around.

 

I simply do not think they can really do it. They can't story and OPs and FP and PVP and solo and daily areas. I don't think they have the resources so we get exactly what you describe. A zig zag pattern of content that leave at any one time, a large portion of the player base thats left not entertained for the money they pay.

 

Like now, end game group content coming. Now solo, story driven players will be upset because it simply will not be enough story for them. Will they leave?

 

Like the past two years. Plenty of story with little end game worth playing. We know many of those left.

 

Just not sure bioware can actually do whats needed. Treading water is all bioware seem to be doing.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Quraswren

[ivanhedgehog]

Dunno if I share the optimism. Gear is a factor but player skill is key in the harder content.

 

Equally you could say that people try for example operations because they have high level gear and then suck donkeyballs just the same cause the gear won't solve that. That might discourage them even more since even BiS gear didn't keep them from that experience so what hope do they have then?

 

I think the only thing that really works is that there are people who are willing to teach and people who are willing to learn that end up meeting each other. Good things come from that.

 

A bit of gear can help but BiS gear won't keep you from dying and wiping if you don't know what you're doing. I don't mind if solo players have BiS gear but it won't make them good enough for group content without learning some things and unfortunately GC also means that we have entered a sort of system where attendance is rewarded over achievement. I just can't see that as a positive thing. It's a side effect of having a single reward system for everything.

 

agreed, gear wont solve everything, and getting 248 from packs isnt exactly quick. I am more than willing though, along with many in my guild, to take new people that want to try raiding. We have had some busts, but we have gotten some people excited about raiding enough to learn how to do it properly. Thats always a good thing.

I would imagine that pvpers see new people trying and some of them learning to love pvp. Same there, the more dedicated people the better.

[Sareeph]

Endgame isn't the problem, raiding is, if a lot of people start queuing tomorrow pvp is instantly popular and something worth investing in, literally all it needs is people genuinely interested in doing it (why those people don't seem to exist is a different issue)

 

Raids aren't like that, 8 players willing to do an Ops don't guarantee you will actually be able to do that OP, you may have 4 that like SM Ops, 2 that are into HM, and 2 that are NiM raiders, these 8 raiders are not going to play with each other even though they all like raiding, and this excludes the fact that there's no NiM mode for the latest bosses, constant nerfs, and the fact that someone that was already doing NiM raiding has to go back to a lower level to get the gear they need, or even do other content to get the gear they need.

 

IF this game looked like it was investing in raids properly it might not help the game in general, but it wouldn't hurt it either, as it it raiding hurts every other aspect of the game.

 

This idea that raids are super popular in another game so as long as we force people to do them they'll grow to like them is absurd, nothing is stopping non raiders from playing those other games, that have more and better raids.

 

And it doesn't look like our raids are attracting raiders from other games, and generating either more population or more profit.

 

Actually, peoples attitude can be the problem. If you were to grab 8 random people and say go raid, yes, you may have the problems you suggest. Luckily there are these things called guilds where like minded people tend to congregate and enjoy the game. Every aspect of the game.

Where are you coming up that the idea is to force people to do Operations? I see some here saying that to kill off Operations entirely like the OP suggests, would probably hurt the game so much that it would not be able to recover. Others are posting that the focus to one aspect of the game has caused our predicament. A fraction of the community comes here to the forums regularly and some try to push their own agendas which quite often runs contrary to a lot of the others playing the game.

I could also say that if you grabbed 8 random players and said queue up and pvp, you would have just as big a mess. Between ego's, actual skill, and the clueless, you get as many problems if not more as you seem to think you would from your raid example above. It's toxic in there. I see it all the time. It isn't as cut and dry as you are trying to portray.

I haven't noticed our pvp attracting many players from other games either. All types of players are bleeding from the game. Saying our plight stems from one thing or type of thing, isn't realistic. It's a compound problem.

[DWho]

Actually, peoples attitude can be the problem. If you were to grab 8 random people and say go raid, yes, you may have the problems you suggest. Luckily there are these things called guilds where like minded people tend to congregate and enjoy the game. Every aspect of the game.

Where are you coming up that the idea is to force people to do Operations? I see some here saying that to kill off Operations entirely like the OP suggests, would probably hurt the game so much that it would not be able to recover. Others are posting that the focus to one aspect of the game has caused our predicament. A fraction of the community comes here to the forums regularly and some try to push their own agendas which quite often runs contrary to a lot of the others playing the game.

I could also say that if you grabbed 8 random players and said queue up and pvp, you would have just as big a mess. Between ego's, actual skill, and the clueless, you get as many problems if not more as you seem to think you would from your raid example above. It's toxic in there. I see it all the time. It isn't as cut and dry as you are trying to portray.

I haven't noticed our pvp attracting many players from other games either. All types of players are bleeding from the game. Saying our plight stems from one thing or type of thing, isn't realistic. It's a compound problem.

 

Well actually that does happen in PVP. Raids run with guilds are very different from raids run through group finder (I've done them both and the ones done with guilds are definitely more relaxing), just like flashpoints run through group finder are usually a mix of people who want to see the story and people typing "Spacebar" over and over in the chat window. A lot of times you get someone saying you shouldn't be using groupfinder if you want to see the story or if you want to experience the flashpoint. To them groupfinder is for speed runs not really the grouping experience. There is too much rush to get to the end. Grinding CXP doesn't help but that is a different discussion (I'm probably one of the few people on the forums that doesn't think the system is that bad as it currently stands).

 

If the forums teach us anything it is that there are a lot of different reasons people play the game and when their favored playstyle gets attacked they respond which often leads to a counter-response and things spin out of control. No content is more important or better than any other content in this game. If you took away one of the three legs of the game it would fall over. The biggest problem I see is that when you release content in small chunks, the side served that time burns through it and then gets upset when the next group gets their content. It would be much better if content were released in larger chunks of combined content so each type of player can play it at the same time. It might even get people to try some of the other aspects of the game.

[Cruxa]

No matter the reason for created and then deleting character (or even saving them). An exceedingly small number of them were created for story.

 

And again, that statistic says nothing...

I created 200 toons only for the story, and played 8 of them. Why? Because with a couple dozen servers at launch I anticipated that there would be server merges sometime, and I made an effort to save the names of my story toons on each and every server. Even the French speaking ones, in case they would make a European or even a single megaserver sometime. And that's not even counting the chars I deleted and recreated to check the look.

I don't know how common that is, though. With all the people worrying about loosing names soon probably not so much, but the point stands: Not every character that didn't make it past the second planet was created in order to play something else than story. Especially nameplaceholders are very common, even though not to that extreme, I guess.

 

Peolpe are really making it too easy for themselves when trying to read statistics. The most common example here: There's almost a perfect overlap between the graphs of the amount of ice cream consumed and the number of homicides commited over the course of the year. When the one number rises and falls, the other does too. Given just these two numbers one could infer that eating ice cream causes people to commit homicides. Of course they just share a similar cause (higher temperatures and therefore more outward activities), but if you want to make it easy and really just infer the absolute obvious from the numbers without investigating any further, you can also "prove" with that statistic that ice cream should be forbidden.

 

By the way, I agree that lack of story was very likely the last thing that made people quit. If SWTOR always had anything in abundance it was and is definitely story. You just can't infer anything from the number of all time created characters. So it would be great to not argue for an otherwise completely valid point with meaningless numbers, that just devalues the argument as a whole. And I'm sorry that I have to bring that up so much, it's absolutely off-topic by now, but it hurts to see a true statement and then read an absolutely far-fetched "proof" for it.^^

[YlliyaXor]

Actually, peoples attitude can be the problem. If you were to grab 8 random people and say go raid, yes, you may have the problems you suggest. Luckily there are these things called guilds where like minded people tend to congregate and enjoy the game. Every aspect of the game.

Where are you coming up that the idea is to force people to do Operations? I see some here saying that to kill off Operations entirely like the OP suggests, would probably hurt the game so much that it would not be able to recover. Others are posting that the focus to one aspect of the game has caused our predicament. A fraction of the community comes here to the forums regularly and some try to push their own agendas which quite often runs contrary to a lot of the others playing the game.

I could also say that if you grabbed 8 random players and said queue up and pvp, you would have just as big a mess. Between ego's, actual skill, and the clueless, you get as many problems if not more as you seem to think you would from your raid example above. It's toxic in there. I see it all the time. It isn't as cut and dry as you are trying to portray.

I haven't noticed our pvp attracting many players from other games either. All types of players are bleeding from the game. Saying our plight stems from one thing or type of thing, isn't realistic. It's a compound problem.

 

Well yes, but if people's attitude problems was something that a dev could fix, we would have an healthy game in no time.

 

It's not so much forcing people to do operations as forcing people to do any group activity, Ops, FP, pvp, gsf, some people enjoy a multiplayer game even if they don't enjoy the traditional group activities of those games, and the constant attempts at getting people to play a part of the game they are not interested in are very annoying.

 

Let me give you an example of how Ops are handled in SWTOR:

 

Not many people do NiM Ops, according to BW only 3% (i may have the wrong %) of the population does NiM Ops, so they decided to stop making NiM, that is until they changed their mind and NiM was a thing again, except they haven't actually made any NIM for any of the new bosses.

 

The Ops themselves aren't the problem, the problem is BW not being able to do everything most would expect from a AAA MMO, instead of low quality Ops we could have more quality in other aspects of the game.

[Aowin]

Well yes, but if people's attitude problems was something that a dev could fix, we would have an healthy game in no time.

 

It's not so much forcing people to do operations as forcing people to do any group activity, Ops, FP, pvp, gsf, some people enjoy a multiplayer game even if they don't enjoy the traditional group activities of those games, and the constant attempts at getting people to play a part of the game they are not interested in are very annoying.

 

Let me give you an example of how Ops are handled in SWTOR:

 

Not many people do NiM Ops, according to BW only 3% (i may have the wrong %) of the population does NiM Ops, so they decided to stop making NiM, that is until they changed their mind and NiM was a thing again, except they haven't actually made any NIM for any of the new bosses.

 

The Ops themselves aren't the problem, the problem is BW not being able to do everything most would expect from a AAA MMO, instead of low quality Ops we could have more quality in other aspects of the game.

 

SWTOR's direction is like a candle in the wind. It's unpredictable and it sways one way and then back the other. It's a game with a constant identity crisis, and because it refuses to commit to anything it fails at everything. There was a strong pivot to endgame group content with ROTHC and SOR, which backfired. Then there was a strong pivot to KOTFE and initially KOTET, which seems to have backfired.

 

Then again, KOTET hasn't really produced much of anything, so it's difficult to really know what's going on at the studio. Perhaps its just internal politics, studio turmoil, and publisher pressure that's causing this stagnancy that we are all feeling. We'll never be able to know the full story, because BioWare and EA don't want us to know.

 

If we truly had a sense of what the future of this game looked like, it would make it far easier for all of us to determine whether to remained subscribed or not. Instead, it's far more lucrative for EA to keep us in the dark and to nickel and dime as much as they can until they cut the power.

 

That's not to say that amazing won't come at some point in 2018, but I doubt we'll see it in the next six months at this point. We are being hopeful and optimistic about a Spring 2018 release date for a potential new expansion, but history has shown BioWare generally only releases expansions in the fall.

 

I also would expect BioWare to market an expansion either at E3 (June 2018) or whenever the next Star Wars Celebration is held. To my knowledge, none of these expansions have just released without a big ramp up in marketing to advertise and promote the game. This is why a Spring 2018 release, especially since we still haven't heard anything, seems like a long shot at this point.

[GalacticKegger]

The Ops themselves aren't the problem, the problem is BW not being able to do everything most would expect from a AAA MMO, instead of low quality Ops we could have more quality in other aspects of the game.

It doesn't need to meet the expectations of AAA MMOs. I submit that the problem is BW not doing what it once did for SWTOR ... the once amazeballs MMORPG that fed all 4 pillars with each expansion and stayed true to the formula with each update. I agree it's not just Ops. Every aspect of the game (except maybe VO) has been diminished. Edited October 19, 2017 by GalacticKegger

[abigfishy]

While I haven't for years, I have worked on computer games and two of my best friends are still computer programmers and I even know someone that worked on the original KOTOR. Maybe things have changed a lot but we just do not understand how even if you just have ONE person working on it (many more needed for testing and graphics obviously) that you cannot design a single boss fight in less than three months.

[abigfishy]

 

Peolpe are really making it too easy for themselves when trying to read statistics. The most common example here: There's almost a perfect overlap between the graphs of the amount of ice cream consumed and the number of homicides commited over the course of the year. When the one number rises and falls, the other does too. Given just these two numbers one could infer that eating ice cream causes people to commit homicides. Of course they just share a similar cause (higher temperatures and therefore more outward activities), but if you want to make it easy and really just infer the absolute obvious from the numbers without investigating any further, you can also "prove" with that statistic that ice cream should be forbidden.

 

 

A much better example is sunblock and sunburn. On the days of the year when the most sunblock is used the most people get sunburn. Therefore sunblock causes sunburn.

 

The other common one is that pirates prevent global warming. As the number of pirates in the world has decreased over the past 130 years, global warming has gotten steadily worse. In fact, this makes it entirely clear that if you truly want to stop global warming, the most impactful thing to do is become a pirate.

[jedimasterjac]

It's fair to say this may be a relatively heated discussion, but I think it's worth having anyway. I don't believe BioWare Austin is in a financial position, and more specifically a staffing position[citations needed], to make future operations for SWTOR. Why is that? I'll explain:

 

Gabe Amatangelo was the Lead Endgame Designer on SWTOR from launch to July 2015. He was in charge of all endgame content, whether it was wzs, fps, and ops. Why is his departure relevant? No more operations would be created in SWTOR until two years later.

 

What does this likely mean? Not only did SWTOR lose the guy that was the vision behind future endgame content, but it's also apparent that the endgame team, as a whole, was largely downsized substantially.[citations needed] BioWare invested heavily into raids from launch through SOR, and the results were less than satisfactory financially[citations needed]. This is why we had the pivot back to story in KOTFE in the first place.

 

Now we get to the newest operation in KOTET. What was supposed to be a brand new raid by the end of the year has been delayed into "early 2018." It is taking the current configuration of the studio well over a year to create five raid bosses. Because of this, next to nothing else is being made and the game has had the worst content drought its ever experienced. [citations needed] (You're making a causal statement without any evidence that operations development is the cause of the content drought.)

 

This suggests a team that is no longer suited or capable of creating raid content in a reasonable or efficient manner. The team is simply too small and does not have the capacity to give raiders what they want, when many were begging for at least two new raids anyway (not one raid pieced together slowly).

 

So, what's the answer? Scrap future operation development. It's too costly. It's too time-consuming. It's not realistic with the current state that BioWare Austin is in. Focus on content that's easier to develop (story, wz, gsf, fps, sh). That obviously won't please the raiders, but it's quite obvious creating new operations is beyond the scope of what BioWare Austin is capable of doing.

 

Honestly, it just seems like you're speculating a lot without any actual information/sources.

 

My bet is that the server merges have been detracting from development of anything else for quite some time. That is one example of development which we have definitive proof of, and which we know requires a reworking of the game, and a lot of devoted manpower. What we do not have is statistics on the size of the end-game team, the relation between ops production and subscriptions/players, or the relation of the cost of development for an operation versus a warzone, a gsf map, or a flashpoint. You have a lot of conclusions, but it feels like you're working backwards from the conclusion.

It's not like BioWare's ever pushed out regular ops. I don't see what's markedly different now. SWTOR has been out for (almost) six years now. Over that period, the game launched with 3 operations. Over the next 6 years, BioWare has pushed out (counting the operation still being released) seven operations.

 

2011 (Launch)

Eternity Vault

Karagga's Palace

Explosive Conflict

 

2012

Terror From Beyond

 

2013

Scum and Villainy

Dread Fortress

Dread Palace

 

2014

The Ravagers

Temple of Sacrifice

 

What is partly important about this is that the drought - which you attribute to the departure of the lead designer - beings after December of 2014, meaning that there's roughly a six month period before Gabe Amatangelo left. There may be other factors we need to assess beyond himself, which caused this drought.

 

KOTFE also concluded in August (I believe?) of 2015. What makes this interesting is it's only one month after Amatangelo's departure; why would they downsize the team after the expansion that already lacked so much content? Perhaps it's not reflective of the size or status of BioWare's end-game team, but merely that they weren't given the proper directive. BioWare decided to try to change the shape of the game, and the end-game team probably helped in ways beyond Operations -- but a downsize after the launch of KOTFE doesn't make sense to me.

Edited October 19, 2017 by jedimasterjac

[curulz]

A much better example is sunblock and sunburn. On the days of the year when the most sunblock is used the most people get sunburn. Therefore sunblock causes sunburn.

 

The other common one is that pirates prevent global warming. As the number of pirates in the world has decreased over the past 130 years, global warming has gotten steadily worse. In fact, this makes it entirely clear that if you truly want to stop global warming, the most impactful thing to do is become a pirate.

 

similar principle I remember from college was as ice cream consumption increase, the number of drowning increases. So of course, eating ice cream leads to drowning.

[PlagaNerezza]

I've tried to get into Iokath. It feels different than the other daily areas in a way that I can't put my finger on. And, this is not a good different. I don't like Iokath as a daily area.

If you genuinely like the Iokath dalies, okay.

 

Yeah its freaking better. Sorry your telling me you like the yavin and belavis dailies? What about those are enjoyable? I am sorry but the replayability of dailies outside of Iokath is only due to either credits or CXP. It's not all fun factor. Iokath has pilot a walker. I'm sorry but that unique and fun and a great daily. Not your cup of tea? Ok, but you better have something to sell me on killing flying rats on Yavin that is more enjoyable.

 

If they just reskinned old bosses (from FPs or ops or WBs or whatever), the community would see right through that and (legitimately) gripe. That idea just screams lazy.

They tried something similar with uprisings, and look how that was received? Did you see all the new uprisings in the road map? Well, that tells you how successful that idea was.

 

The majority of boss fights are very similar mechanics. I'm arguing that if the problem getting content to market is that you need mechanics that is not a valid excuse.

 

The reason uprisings aren't played is the same reason flashpoints were not played. Once you've completed it once they have no replayability. They offer no gear or loot of substance. I'll tell you this when they offered the most cxp they were played. When HM flashpoints had 100% decoration drops for the bonus boss they were played.

 

When they offered something of value there are played. Dailies are not played for fun. They are/were credit farms. I wouldn't do dailies if not for a credit reward for doing it. I'm playing operations for gear progression. Running EV and KP on Standard mode on an alt toon isn't for fun. I hate EV. I only like KP for the puzzle in hm.

 

I think they need to get to market 1 pvp map per year and 1 operations per year to retain subscribers. They need to retire from rotation older pvp maps and operations to the gear level they belong. EV and KP shouldn't be played any more unless you want 230 for free. Like hey I got this level 60-65. Run EV and KP and they get 230 full suit for completing both.

 

Add some rewards for nightmare back in. Gear and Deco's kept those subscribers. Re-introduce for cash only sales operations passes. I get not wanting to let people share cartel currency to fund cheap players and stockpiling operations passes. So make them cash only buys.

 

This would let them have the time to do story mode expansion. They cannot rely on an MMO without end-game content. They won't make it between stories without it. No one is paying for an mmo longer term without content for when you finish the story. It's been told many times over.

 

To the original point of the thread. Operations development is feasible. They need to allocate resources better. They need to dedicate to it. I see an effort to do that with fixing some systemic problems. I'm back because of that commitment I see. Server mergers. Attempts at some operations. Trying to return the story to a good point.

 

I'm actually hopeful the recent changes are steps in a real positive direction that the next story will bring them back and they have a plan to keep them.

 

 

 

 

Agreed, mostly. I wouldn't say "nuke zakuul". I just say let's just never mention it again and pretend like it doesn't exist.

 

I vote Ziost the thing. So that you can visit the smoking ash grave world of the eternal empire/alliance/droid god mode world. Guess that wasn't the ultimate force user. Eternal needs to be made Finite.

Edited October 19, 2017 by PlagaNerezza

[SolarSaenz]

You're right that we don't know for certain what BW studio Austin's staffing levels are and don't know their budget.

 

However, we can guesstimate that their staff levels have gone down over the years based on the slower release of content.

Remember in 2.4, we got 2 FULL operations, a good daily area, all wrapped around a sort of story arc wrap up.

In 5.4, we got quality of life changes and bug fixes.

While QoL improvements and bug fixes are always welcome, it makes one wonder why no actual content came out. We can speculate and maybe be partial right.

 

Also, 5.6 is being touted as a huge release or whatever (see the road map for the verbatim wording). It will just include 1 op boss, 1 FP, 1 WZ, 1 GSF map, and some QoL stuff.

The updates in 5.x don;'t contain nearly the amount of content than earlier updates (1.x - 3.x).

 

Is it really that much of a stretch to think that less content means less staff at BW Austin?

Yeah, we don't know for sure.

but, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck......

Edited October 19, 2017 by SolarSaenz

[Aowin]

What is partly important about this is that the drought - which you attribute to the departure of the lead designer - beings after December of 2014, meaning that there's roughly a six month period before Gabe Amatangelo left. There may be other factors we need to assess beyond himself, which caused this drought.

 

KOTFE also concluded in August (I believe?) of 2015. What makes this interesting is it's only one month after Amatangelo's departure; why would they downsize the team after the expansion that already lacked so much content? Perhaps it's not reflective of the size or status of BioWare's end-game team, but merely that they weren't given the proper directive. BioWare decided to try to change the shape of the game, and the end-game team probably helped in ways beyond Operations -- but a downsize after the launch of KOTFE doesn't make sense to me.

 

Incorrect. KOTFE concluded in August of 2016. KOTFE launched in October 27, 2015. In other words, Gabe left the studio a few months before the studio's pivot to story, which they had been obviously working on KOTFE for many months before its release and Gabe's departure.

 

As someone else had indicated earlier, there was a massive exodus of BioWare staff after the lackluster showing of SOR. EA pivoted SWTOR to focus more on the Cartel Market, and a lot of BioWare employees left as a result. This would lead one to believe that any sort of endgame team was likely dead shortly after SOR's release. That might also explain why the two operations for SOR were in such pitiful shape as well.

 

For whatever reason, Gabe stuck around, even well into KOTFE's development. He probably assisted with the Odessen WZ, the Rishi arena, and perhaps Star Fortresses and the Eternal Championship. Outside of that, he left (or was removed) shortly before KOTFE released.

[Tsillah]

Honestly, it just seems like you're speculating a lot without any actual information/sources.

Then perhaps you should check your own information.

It's not like BioWare's ever pushed out regular ops. I don't see what's markedly different now. SWTOR has been out for (almost) six years now. Over that period, the game launched with 3 operations. Over the next 6 years, BioWare has pushed out (counting the operation still being released) seven operations.

 

2011 (Launch)

Eternity Vault

Karagga's Palace

Explosive Conflict

 

The game launched only with Eternity Vault.

Karagga's Palace came out in January 2012 (patch 1.1.0)

Explosive Conflict came out in April 2012 (patch 1.2)

[Rion_Starkiller]

Game populations don't decrease for no reason. Operations and their inability to be valued, replayable content are largely to explain the downturn in the population. It has arguably always been the weakest feature for SWTOR, largely because creating operations is so time-consuming and difficult.

How did the population decrease in 4.0 & early 5.0 when they weren't creating operations? This does not correlate.

 

In order to truly do operations, you need a team dedicated solely to making that kind of content. BioWare has never had a team just dedicated to operations, and they certainly don't have the staffing now to do that feature justice. It's an ambitious project they don't have the means or the capacity to tackle in a practical way.

 

The server merge is certainly part of the calculus regarding funding. However, that has nothing to do with the team responsible for endgame content at BioWare. That has to do with the engineering team and the service team who work solely on the server-side of the game. The fact that this raid is taking so long to be made provides evidence of a content team that is over-extended and understaffed.

I'm sure there's some overlap. But both of us are just speculating. When you are understaffed, heck, the janitor may be writing code.

 

I just don't see future raids in this game being practical or likely. It's simply not the kind of content BioWare can make given their current circumstances. There was a reason they weren't making any raids for two years (back to my previous point addressed in the OP), and how this one is shaping up is evidence of the systemic issues in the studio.

I think the lack of raids killed the population. Not because the entire population raids, but because healthy, strong guilds that raid and pvp are like living, breathing organisms. They are a sign of game health.

 

The content team (making the actual operation) has nothing to do with the engineers and service team (dealing with server merges and transfers). There is some overlap in funding, but one team should not impact the other in terms of content being made.

 

Again, I think they even have the janitor writing code now. Just because you have a degree in one thing does not mean that is the only thing you do. Actually, I have it backwards. The guy with a master's degree in software systems is also cleaning the BWA kitchen as one of his side duties.

[olagatonjedi]

Well people are farming Hammerstation constantly because of the best CXP/time rate, that doesn't mean in the slightest they like that FP or GC/ CXP, they just seek for the fasted way to work the system.

 

A solo player probably does not, but everyone participating in group or competitive content is most likely also participating in the gear treadmill. If you need certain gear to do what you enjoy, you look for the fastest way to get to that.

And I don't really believe those event and adjustments are always just a coincidence. I just can't believe people at BW don't know that players tent to walk the easiest/fastest path and optimize their gaming time. Or in case of the DvL even chase the precious shines of the crates.

 

Especially with the CXP grind it is easily possible to steer what players do to influence the metrics to a result you want, by just changing the amounts of CXP you get for doing something.

A balanced game would try to even out the numbers for all activities, to really see what players like to do and what not.

Here though, in the beginning of 5.0 CXP from Uprisings and chapters were great, people going there in masses could be read as *look out this new feature is such a success* when in truth players only try to circumvent the grind into something bearable, and maybe wouldn't touch that activity otherwise.

It is falsifying the metrics if you don't also ask if people actually like and enjoy what they do or if they are simply choosing the least worse possibility.

Might be naive but I would rather gouge the success of something by having the players playing it because they have fun and enjoy it, not because some grind becomes more bearable by doing things you wouldn't do if not for the vastly better CXP/time ratio.

It is difficult to gauge that, yes, but reading metrics correctly just isn't easy or one dimensional

There is absolutely no way to evenly balance every single area of content. For this reason, they need to steer people to specific areas, but if rewards are the same, the metrics can still be informative to success of content compared to others. For example, if metrics show 2x the participation in section x during a bonus event when compared to the black hole during a bonus event, it would suggest that the black hole may need an additional bonus (time vs reward), or that people just dont like the zone/quests/etx. More investigation may be needed.

[GalacticKegger]

...

 

Especially with the CXP grind it is easily possible to steer what players do to influence the metrics to a result you want, by just changing the amounts of CXP you get for doing something.

A balanced game would try to even out the numbers for all activities, to really see what players like to do and what not.

Here though, in the beginning of 5.0 CXP from Uprisings and chapters were great, people going there in masses could be read as *look out this new feature is such a success* when in truth players only try to circumvent the grind into something bearable, and maybe wouldn't touch that activity otherwise.

It is falsifying the metrics if you don't also ask if people actually like and enjoy what they do or if they are simply choosing the least worse possibility.

Might be naive but I would rather gouge the success of something by having the players playing it because they have fun and enjoy it, not because some grind becomes more bearable by doing things you wouldn't do if not for the vastly better CXP/time ratio.

 

Bullseye. We had a balanced game at one time, where all 4 pillars were supported equally. Corporate avarice scuttled it though.

 

How did the population decrease in 4.0 & early 5.0 when they weren't creating operations? This does not correlate.

Because what they did create in the absence of fresh end game content was mouse-tube linear, one dimensional and could be knocked out in a single binge weekend. Their answer to 4.0's lack of content, and scaled back / solo RPG-centric design vision, was 5.0's GC system.

 

They were hoping that retooling the entire game around a F2P tablet RPG ladder advancement system would keep players occupied. What they learned is that MMORPG players want to progress through fresh content that increases in difficulty as you go, not a ladder. What we learned is that they lack the expertise and resources to bring this back.

 

They were hoping that mimicking the promiscuous RNG gambling "excitement" (oh please ...) of opening Cartel Crates would suffice as a reward system. What they learned is that MMORPG players want their rewards across the entire game to be directly applicable to the content conquered and commensurate with its difficulty level, not a promiscuous RNG crate system. What we learned is that they will live or die with GC.

Edited October 20, 2017 by GalacticKegger

[SolarSaenz]

As someone else had indicated earlier, there was a massive exodus of BioWare staff after the lackluster showing of SOR. EA pivoted SWTOR to focus more on the Cartel Market, and a lot of BioWare employees left as a result. This would lead one to believe that any sort of endgame team was likely dead shortly after SOR's release. That might also explain why the two operations for SOR were in such pitiful shape as well.

 

SoR was lack luster? Really? I thought it was pretty good, and the people I talked to in my guild at the time agreed with me. And, even from outside my guild, I heard mostly good stuff about it.

 

The elephant in that room was all the bugs, mainly the very buggy Revan finale fight that was almost impossible to complete until it was fixed.

Still, bugs are bugs, and software will always have bugs especially when making its debut. Later, I forgave them once it was fixed.

and,

 

ToS was pretty hard. I've never tried it myself. But, I thought we didn't want stupid easy ops boss fights anyway? Still, I think they went back in and adjusted boss fights later.

Ravegers, which I have cleared is decent. And, I like the fact that it's a self contained thing. You don't need to do Ravegers to experience the overall story of SoR.

 

The overall quality of SoR was good I thought. I didn't really hear any negative things about it from the people I interacted with around the time of its release.

 

But, whatever. If, by the subscriber numbers and server population levels, SoR failed to impress the community, then it is what it is. Which, if that's true (SoR failed), that's a shame because SoR was, in my opinion, the game's best expansion so far.

[olagatonjedi]

Bullseye. We had a balanced game at one time, where all 4 pillars were supported equally.

We did?

[GalacticKegger]

We did?

Prior to 4.0, yes ... yes we did. Each expansion was P2P that gave us fresh and full OPEN WORLD planets to explore. Fresh and full group content (FPs & Ops) to progress through. Fresh and full PvP maps and modes. Fresh stories that both solo players and groups could play through. Fresh and full loot tables. Nothing was recycled and the only one size fits all aspect of the game were the tactical flashpoints. Real MMORPG stuff.

 

But don't take my word for it:

2.0: http://www.swtor.com/patchnotes/2.0-rothc/rise-hutt-cartel-and-scum-and-villainy

3.0: http://www.swtor.com/patchnotes/1222014/game-update-3.0-shadow-revan-early-access

4.0: http://www.swtor.com/patchnotes/10202015/game-update-4.0-knights-fallen-empire-early-access

5.0: http://www.swtor.com/patchnotes/11292016/game-update-5.0-knights-eternal-throne-early-access

 

Free to Play ... we got what we paid for.

Edited October 22, 2017 by GalacticKegger

[Radzkie]

For anyone who doesn't play FFXIV, it regularly rolls out PvP content and tweaks(you can only use pvp skills in it now etc). Not just PvE. This wasn't the case earlier in the games life so I assume some people are working off old info. I'm almost 100% sure some are after reading this.

 

FFXIV also rolls out regular raids, housing content, crafting content, mini games, brand new events(and old ones for people who missed them), glamour, single bosses(aka trials), dalies, main story, dungeons(also Deep Dungeons were introduced) and so much more.

 

It covers all four pillars and its growing rapidly. I think completely ignoring any is a mistake, but again I realize SWTOR does not have the budget to focus on all of it.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Radzkie

[SolarSaenz]

For anyone who doesn't play FFXIV, it regularly rolls out PvP content and tweaks(you can only use pvp skills in it now etc). Not just PvE. This wasn't the case earlier in the games life so I assume some people are working off old info. I'm almost 100% sure some are after reading this.

 

FFXIV also rolls out regular raids, housing content, crafting content, mini games, brand new events(and old ones for people who missed them), glamour, single bosses(aka trials), dungeons(also Deep Dungeons were introduced) and so much more.

 

It covers all four pillars and its growing rapidly. I think completely ignoring any is a mistake, but again I realize SWTOR does not have the budget to focus on all of it.

 

Yes.

FF14 gets a lot of love. Also, The Final Fantasy franchise is SquareEnix's baby. They don't want to ruin the good name of Final Fantasy by having a failed MMO.

There's a good documentary on the whole saving of FF14 on YouTube for anyone who's interested in that story.

The only things that SWTOR excels at above FF14 is story and companions, and by story and companions, I am spotlighting story and companions from 1.0 to right before 4.0. Voice acting is not in every cut scene in FF14.

Also, at times, there is forced group content, as in you can't advance in the main story line unless you participate in certain group activities. So, ff14 may not appeal to those seeking a solo experience.

 

Meanwhile, SWTOR for EA is just another expendable game that they've all but moved on from, unless things are happening behind the scenes that we just don't know about right now.

Edited October 20, 2017 by SolarSaenz

[Radzkie]

FFXIV is certainly not for people who want to treat a MMO like a single player game. And they should never be catered to, in my opinion. Edited October 20, 2017 by Radzkie