An honest conversation: Future Operation development is not feasible.

[Aowin]

It's fair to say this may be a relatively heated discussion, but I think it's worth having anyway. I don't believe BioWare Austin is in a financial position, and more specifically a staffing position, to make future operations for SWTOR. Why is that? I'll explain:

 

Gabe Amatangelo was the Lead Endgame Designer on SWTOR from launch to July 2015. He was in charge of all endgame content, whether it was wzs, fps, and ops. Why is his departure relevant? No more operations would be created in SWTOR until two years later.

 

What does this likely mean? Not only did SWTOR lose the guy that was the vision behind future endgame content, but it's also apparent that the endgame team, as a whole, was largely downsized substantially. BioWare invested heavily into raids from launch through SOR, and the results were less than satisfactory financially. This is why we had the pivot back to story in KOTFE in the first place.

 

Now we get to the newest operation in KOTET. What was supposed to be a brand new raid by the end of the year has been delayed into "early 2018." It is taking the current configuration of the studio well over a year to create five raid bosses. Because of this, next to nothing else is being made and the game has had the worst content drought its ever experienced.

 

This suggests a team that is no longer suited or capable of creating raid content in a reasonable or efficient manner. The team is simply too small and does not have the capacity to give raiders what they want, when many were begging for at least two new raids anyway (not one raid pieced together slowly).

 

So, what's the answer? Scrap future operation development. It's too costly. It's too time-consuming. It's not realistic with the current state that BioWare Austin is in. Focus on content that's easier to develop (story, wz, gsf, fps, sh). That obviously won't please the raiders, but it's quite obvious creating new operations is beyond the scope of what BioWare Austin is capable of doing.

[hillerbees]

It would seem obvious that as the games population of paying players dwindles the resources are not going to be poured into it in a way we would like. i don't think this is limited to Operations.

 

The biggest shame is I feel that the Star Wars / SWTOR players have more faith in the game than those who have designed it and the diminishing player base is a RESULT of the reduced investment and not the other way around.

 

 

All this at a time when there are Star Wars films being released faster than ever before. The appetite is there.

[annabethchase]

What makes you think an ops takes longer than other content to produce? Just because they are doing it slowly doesn't mean it takes longer to make. It's equally likely they only have 1 or 2 people working on it at all and that's why it's so slow to develop.

 

If you break it down logically:

1) the newest ops isn't interesting visually. The latest FP is much more impressive

2) they aren't too worried about tuning and ensuring the mechanics are fair and balanced for all

3) the overall length of the ops "hallways" haven't been substantial either

 

Frankly, I don't see any evidence it takes longer to produce 30 minutes worth of an operation vs. 30 minutes worth of a Flashpoint. It might not even be that much longer than 30 minutes of a story chapter, once cutscenes are factored in.

[psandak]

It's fair to say this may be a relatively heated discussion, but I think it's worth having anyway. I don't believe BioWare Austin is in a financial position, and more specifically a staffing position, to make future operations for SWTOR. Why is that? I'll explain:

 

Gabe Amatangelo was the Lead Endgame Designer on SWTOR from launch to July 2015. He was in charge of all endgame content, whether it was wzs, fps, and ops. Why is his departure relevant? No more operations would be created in SWTOR until two years later.

 

What does this likely mean? Not only did SWTOR lose the guy that was the vision behind future endgame content, but it's also apparent that the endgame team, as a whole, was largely downsized substantially. BioWare invested heavily into raids from launch through SOR, and the results were less than satisfactory financially. This is why we had the pivot back to story in KOTFE in the first place.

 

Now we get to the newest operation in KOTET. What was supposed to be a brand new raid by the end of the year has been delayed into "early 2018." It is taking the current configuration of the studio well over a year to create five raid bosses. Because of this, next to nothing else is being made and the game has had the worst content drought its ever experienced.

 

This suggests a team that is no longer suited or capable of creating raid content in a reasonable or efficient manner. The team is simply too small and does not have the capacity to give raiders what they want, when many were begging for at least two new raids anyway (not one raid pieced together slowly).

 

So, what's the answer? Scrap future operation development. It's too costly. It's too time-consuming. It's not realistic with the current state that BioWare Austin is in. Focus on content that's easier to develop (story, wz, gsf, fps, sh). That obviously won't please the raiders, but it's quite obvious creating new operations is beyond the scope of what BioWare Austin is capable of doing.

 

I disagree with your hypothesis that it was the raid that was the reason behind the lack of content. More likely it was the server merges that drained BWA resources. And now that server merges are being implemented, once complete they will be able to move on to providing actual content. They gave us what content they could over the course of the past year: couple of story chapters, part of a new raid, a new FP, class balance (for what that's worth), and new GSF revamp/balance. All while working out the technical and logistical issues that prevented server merges in the past.

 

That said, you do have a valid point: that the staff they have is insufficient to provide a wide range of diverse quality content in short periods of time. And raids are probably one of the most resource consuming aspects of the game. Therefore, after GotM we may not see another raid for another two years. For those who only play MMOs for large group PvE, this is going to be a problem. For the rest of us...each will have to decide.

 

What makes you think an ops takes longer than other content to produce? Just because they are doing it slowly doesn't mean it takes longer to make. It's equally likely they only have 1 or 2 people working on it at all and that's why it's so slow to develop.

 

If you break it down logically:

1) the newest ops isn't interesting visually. The latest FP is much more impressive

2) they aren't too worried about tuning and ensuring the mechanics are fair and balanced for all

3) the overall length of the ops "hallways" haven't been substantial either

 

Frankly, I don't see any evidence it takes longer to produce 30 minutes worth of an operation vs. 30 minutes worth of a Flashpoint. It might not even be that much longer than 30 minutes of a story chapter, once cutscenes are factored in.

 

Producing an operation may not take any longer than a FP, but mechanics tuning is a LOT harder. Most FPs' mechanics are of the "stay out of stupid" variety; stand in stupid you take damage. Or tank and spank with adds. Most Ops boss mechanics involve staying out of stupid but also entail different players doing different things at different times.

Edited October 14, 2017 by psandak

[Tadagyt]

The ops was delayed because there's something happening: server merges.

[Aowin]

It would seem obvious that as the games population of paying players dwindles the resources are not going to be poured into it in a way we would like. i don't think this is limited to Operations.

 

The biggest shame is I feel that the Star Wars / SWTOR players have more faith in the game than those who have designed it and the diminishing player base is a RESULT of the reduced investment and not the other way around.

 

All this at a time when there are Star Wars films being released faster than ever before. The appetite is there.

 

Game populations don't decrease for no reason. Operations and their inability to be valued, replayable content are largely to explain the downturn in the population. It has arguably always been the weakest feature for SWTOR, largely because creating operations is so time-consuming and difficult.

 

What makes you think an ops takes longer than other content to produce? Just because they are doing it slowly doesn't mean it takes longer to make. It's equally likely they only have 1 or 2 people working on it at all and that's why it's so slow to develop.

 

If you break it down logically:

1) the newest ops isn't interesting visually. The latest FP is much more impressive

2) they aren't too worried about tuning and ensuring the mechanics are fair and balanced for all

3) the overall length of the ops "hallways" haven't been substantial either

 

Frankly, I don't see any evidence it takes longer to produce 30 minutes worth of an operation vs. 30 minutes worth of a Flashpoint. It might not even be that much longer than 30 minutes of a story chapter, once cutscenes are factored in.

 

That's an easy question to answer. BioWare has commented on the fact that operations are the hardest content in the game to make several times over the years. Eternity Vault, as a perfect example, was the most challenging operation BioWare ever built.

 

The reason for this is because there were so many moving parts, mechanics, and unique boss scenarios, that it was a nightmare to fix and squash out bugs. Soa, alone, was a never-ending nightmare for the team. It's why the operation was horribly broken for months after launch. BioWare stated they'd never do anything as ambitious as EV ever again.

 

In order to truly do operations, you need a team dedicated solely to making that kind of content. BioWare has never had a team just dedicated to operations, and they certainly don't have the staffing now to do that feature justice. It's an ambitious project they don't have the means or the capacity to tackle in a practical way.

 

I disagree with your hypothesis that it was the raid that was the reason behind the lack of content. More likely it was the server merges that drained BWA resources. And now that server merges are being implemented, once complete they will be able to move on to providing actual content. They gave us what content they could over the course of the past year: couple of story chapters, part of a new raid, a new FP, class balance (for what that's worth), and new GSF revamp/balance. All while working out the technical and logistical issues that prevented server merges in the past.

 

That said, you do have a valid point: that the staff they have is insufficient to provide a wide range of diverse quality content in short periods of time. And raids are probably one of the most resource consuming aspects of the game. Therefore, after GotM we may not see another raid for another two years. For those who only play MMOs for large group PvE, this is going to be a problem. For the rest of us...each will have to decide.

 

The server merge is certainly part of the calculus regarding funding. However, that has nothing to do with the team responsible for endgame content at BioWare. That has to do with the engineering team and the service team who work solely on the server-side of the game. The fact that this raid is taking so long to be made provides evidence of a content team that is over-extended and understaffed.

 

I just don't see future raids in this game being practical or likely. It's simply not the kind of content BioWare can make given their current circumstances. There was a reason they weren't making any raids for two years (back to my previous point addressed in the OP), and how this one is shaping up is evidence of the systemic issues in the studio.

 

The ops was delayed because there's something happening: server merges.

 

The content team (making the actual operation) has nothing to do with the engineers and service team (dealing with server merges and transfers). There is some overlap in funding, but one team should not impact the other in terms of content being made.

[Eli_Porter]

They already tried that with Uprisings and it didn't work out.

 

The MMO playerbase enjoys raiding, you can't just ignore that fact and try to reinvent the wheel.

[FerkWork]

They already tried that with Uprisings and it didn't work out.

 

The MMO playerbase enjoys raiding, you can't just ignore that fact and try to reinvent the wheel.

 

But if they live in denial they can make any argument real. OP just hate raiding and want it removed. I say we just remove Story and Anything else OP likes. Also I guess they needed another thread after recktoning in the other. :3

Edited October 14, 2017 by FerkWork

[Sareeph]

I disagree with your hypothesis that it was the raid that was the reason behind the lack of content. More likely it was the server merges that drained BWA resources. And now that server merges are being implemented, once complete they will be able to move on to providing actual content. They gave us what content they could over the course of the past year: couple of story chapters, part of a new raid, a new FP, class balance (for what that's worth), and new GSF revamp/balance. All while working out the technical and logistical issues that prevented server merges in the past.

 

Let us not forget that a lot of time and resources have been spent on revamping the GC system as well. I would imagine that a lot of things were postponed due to recoding things to bring us to our current incarnation.

[Eshvara]

I always wonder if they did not have the 3-6m worth of Team Blur cinematics/trailer, how much more content we could have.🎅 Edited October 15, 2017 by Eshvara

[Ylliarus]

There was a "content drought" due to the incoming server merges, not because of an operation. Your hypothesis is very wonky and lacks logical connections in its argumentation. Also, do you have proof to support your claims? It is more likely the server merges took up the time for operations and other content, as it is a very costly and big endeavour. With server merges out of the way we'll get an expansion (which has been unofficially confirmed) and many more operations as well as other group content.

 

Also, in all blunt honesty, suggesting abandoning raiding and operations is a rather very... not smart thing to suggest. Think about it, many players (around 50% of SWTOR's player population) are raiders and do OPS content daily. Bioware announces that they will stop producing any new raid content... remember when the devs announced a focus on story with KOtFE and KotET? Yeah, the response to that will definitely not be smaller than that and you'll be able to say farewell to half of the current playerbase which will simply end the game. Raid content needs to be produced in the future, alongside new stories, fps, strongholds warzones and gsf maps. We just need to be patient and give them a bit of time to get it all done and most importantly done properly.

[Aowin]

They already tried that with Uprisings and it didn't work out.

 

The MMO playerbase enjoys raiding, you can't just ignore that fact and try to reinvent the wheel.

 

Uprisings were meant to be casual, more accessible versions of flashpoints, not operations. You claim the "MMO playerbase enjoys raiding," but how many raiders are actually left? There had not been a single raid in two years, and the one that's being developed is less than ideal.

 

I think what the "MMO playerbase enjoys" is content, and this game has nothing due to being over-extended trying to make a single raid.

 

But if they live in denial they can make any argument real. OP just hate raiding and want it removed. I say we just remove Story and Anything else OP likes. Also I guess they needed another thread after recktoning in the other. :3

 

It's funny you say that, considering I was a progression raider for years (had the first republic group to clear NiM EV on Shien) and did progression raiding in SWG. The difference here is SWTOR raiding has found itself to be incredibly underwhelming and largely not rewarding. It's probably the most lackluster raiding I've ever seen in any MMO, and the amount of effort it takes to make these raids is not worth it.

 

Let us not forget that a lot of time and resources have been spent on revamping the GC system as well. I would imagine that a lot of things were postponed due to recoding things to bring us to our current incarnation.

 

SWTOR has gone through several progression revisions. GC is hardly the first or even the most dramatic. This is merely an excuse to ignore the fact that the endgame content team does not have the manpower to create raids in a reasonable amount of time as well as other content.

 

I always wonder if they did not have the 3-6m worth of cinematics, how much more content we could have.🎅

 

That comparison doesn't work, and I'll explain why. BioWare has had a dedicated structure built for storytelling for the past 15 years. They have an incredibly efficient pipeline for VO, dialogue creation, and cutscenes. None of that is difficult for BioWare to make, as the game was built from the ground up with that in mind.

 

Operations, on the other hand, is a whole different ball of wax.

[TUXs]

Operations are the only thing that will save this game imo. Group content is essential to an MMO, and that has ALWAYS been this games weakness.

[Eshvara]

That comparison doesn't work, and I'll explain why. BioWare has had a dedicated structure built for storytelling for the past 15 years. They have an incredibly efficient pipeline for VO, dialogue creation, and cutscenes. None of that is difficult for BioWare to make, as the game was built from the ground up with that in mind.

 

Operations, on the other hand, is a whole different ball of wax.

I don't quite understand what that has to do with them producing less content because of lack of funding from EA, but pumping in 3-6m$ for 3 to 6 minutes of cinematics. If that is even the case.(not stating facts here)

Before we got cinematics and good enough content, Then we had RoTHC and SoR, no cinematics but fairly good expansions. Then there was Kotfe and Kotet, both pretty lacking in content but extremely nice cinematics worth a lot of money.

 

Maybe it's just me, but I can't help but wondering if there's a pattern.

Edited October 14, 2017 by Eshvara

[Ylliarus]

Operations are the only thing that will save this game imo. Group content is essential to an MMO, and that has ALWAYS been this games weakness.

 

While my own playing focus lies in story, RP and is of a slightly more solo-focus I do heavily agree with this sentiment. SWTOR needs to step up its raiding game alongside the server merges if they truly want to bring back players and subscribers to the game. So in all blunt honesty abandoning operations entirely would be the dumbest thing to do. That said, I wouldn't want to see a raid-only focus of course. There should always be something for everyone, the raiders as well as the solo-player

Edited October 14, 2017 by Ylliarus

[Aowin]

There was a "content drought" due to the incoming server merges, not because of an operation. Your hypothesis is very wonky and lacks logical connections in its argumentation. Also, do you have proof to support your claims? It is more likely the server merges took up the time for operations and other content, as it is a very costly and big endeavour. With server merges out of the way we'll get an expansion (which has been unofficially confirmed) and many more operations as well as other group content.

 

Also, in all blunt honesty, suggesting abandoning raiding and operations is a rather very... not smart thing to suggest. Think about it, many players (around 50% of SWTOR's player population) are raiders and do OPS content daily. Bioware announces that they will stop producing any new raid content... remember when the devs announced a focus on story with KOtFE and KotET? Yeah, the response to that will definitely not be smaller than that and you'll be able to say farewell to half of the current playerbase which will simply end the game. Raid content needs to be produced in the future, alongside new stories, fps, strongholds warzones and gsf maps. We just need to be patient and give them a bit of time to get it all done and most importantly done properly.

 

A lot of factually inaccurate statements in this post.

 

The engineering team and service team (responsible for the engine and servers) having nothing to do with the endgame team (content creation). You are conflating to very separate types of development and don't see to understand BioWare's studio structure. They don't have every single developer working on one thing at one time. They have different teams dedicated to different aspects of the game. One will not impact the other.

 

No expansion has been confirmed, just that more "content" is on the way. There's also no evidence that more operations will be made. In truth, this will probably be the last operation made for a very long time. Also, I have no idea where you came up with this "around 50% of SWTOR's player population" are raiders. That is simply not true. I'd be surprised if 25% of the player population were "raiders." Even less would be progression raiders.

 

KOTFE had the highest amount of concurrent subscribers in SWTOR for years. Clearly, half of the player base wasn't raiders. The population faltered because of how monthly chapters were executed and terrible pacing. It's obvious, as is the case with the perception of the original eight class stories, that most here play the game for its story.

 

I'd agree with you if BioWare had the manpower and resources to dedicate to raiding. They do not. It's too costly and the benefits do not outweigh the harm. Better to focus on everything else and just occasionally update the already existing operations every now and then. Anyone who actually took raiding seriously left SWTOR years ago for MMOs that are far better at raiding.

[Aowin]

I don't quite understand what that has to do with them producing less content because of lack of funding from EA, but pumping in 3-6m$ for 3 to 6 minutes of cinematics. If that is even the case.(not stating facts here)

Before we got cinematics and good enough content, Then we had RoTHC and SoR, no cinematics but fairly good expansions. Then there was Kotfe and Kotet, both pretty lacking in content but extremely nice cinematics worth a lot of money.

 

Maybe it's just me, but I can't help but wondering if there's a pattern.

 

You and I are talking about two separate things. I'm referring to in-game cutscenes. You are referring to the Blur Studio trailers.

 

Even then, your point is moot because you made a false assumption that BioWare is using its budget for SWTOR to fund those trailers. That is very unlikely. EA, the publisher, provides the studio with a budget for its marketing campaign. Not to mention, that kind of marketing is important to provide exposure to get people to come and play the game.

 

It definitely worked for KOTFE, which had the largest amount of subscribers for SWTOR in years.

[Toraak]

Operations are the only thing that will save this game imo. Group content is essential to an MMO, and that has ALWAYS been this games weakness.

 

I know me and Tux Disagree on many things, but I 100% AGREE HERE.

[supertimtaf]

I don't think that Operations are a content more difficult to do than others. Story is the content that needs a lot of works, because it needs cutscene with actual conversation for 8 different class that have both gender... 16 voice actor needed in total, with other interactions, other voice actor, new character to design, scenario to implement...

Flashpoint are also difficult, they need actual mechanics with three modes of balance (Story/Veteran/Master). Graphics needs to also be good and the environment must be great in order for peoples to actually enjoy the FP. There is also actual cutscene with conversations that need to be implemented...

 

I could go on for a long time for each and every content. The result would be the same, it still demands work.

Actually, BW doesn't have what it takes to produce any kind of decent content. They can produce content, sure, like they did with Iokath, with Umbara or with the last operation. But overall the result will be really less than satisfying due to the lack of peoples in charge of development. For what I've seen they're only able to keep up with CM items, because it's the only thing that bring any form of cash. If you want them to stop Operations because it takes too much ressource, then let's stop doing solo content as well, so that the two peoples in charge of designing content can focus on FP only so that everyone will be "happy". I thought that everybody agreed on this on the other post. There is no "best" content for this game. Stop delivering one type of content and you lose a whole part of your playerbase, whatever the type of content is.

[Ylliarus]

A lot of factually inaccurate statements in this post.

 

According to yourself, a non-objective source.

 

The engineering team and service team (responsible for the engine and servers) having nothing to do with the endgame team (content creation). You are conflating to very separate types of development and don't see to understand BioWare's studio structure. They don't have every single developer working on one thing at one time. They have different teams dedicated to different aspects of the game. One will not impact the other.

 

Right so I guess none of the developers are paid and all work there for free. They aren't paid for overworking when the server merges need to be done right or finances going to new hardware that need to support the server changes? All of that comes for free of course, if I am to believe your statement. What a lovely studio structure and how very nice of EA to give all of that for free!

 

No expansion has been confirmed, just that more "content" is on the way. There's also no evidence that more operations will be made. In truth, this will probably be the last operation made for a very long time. Also, I have no idea where you came up with this "around 50% of SWTOR's player population" are raiders. That is simply not true. I'd be surprised if 25% of the player population were "raiders." Even less would be progression raiders.

 

Before you start writing please read the forums as well as the news media surrounding SWTOR in order to not embarrass yourself had you been around the livestream in light of the latest Roadmap and seen Keith's replies to the questions asked post stream, you would have been aware of the fact that he had unofficially confirmed an expansion for 2018. Also, as to the operations, are you actually playing the game? Have you seen what people do most of their time? Players are constantly forming ops groups on the fleets and outside of them, I can't count the raid-focussed guilds as they're so many of them. And you say they are a minority in the game? You need to get your eyes checked mate.

 

I'd agree with you if BioWare had the manpower and resources to dedicate to raiding. They do not. It's too costly and the benefits do not outweigh the harm. Better to focus on everything else and just occasionally update the already existing operations every now and then. Anyone who actually took raiding seriously left SWTOR years ago for MMOs that are far better at raiding.

 

I have already dedicated enough of my precious time replying to you so I will give one final comment: I vehemently hope the devs will never listen to your suggestion as it would kill the game. It would alienate half the playerbase if not more and make most of them leave, surely I don't need to explain what that would mean for SWTOR. Operations are one of the key features that need to be worked on to secure a bright future for the game, so I pray Bioware will be smarter than what you suggested and keep on working on improving existing operations as well as producing new engaging ones.

[Sareeph]

SWTOR has gone through several progression revisions. GC is hardly the first or even the most dramatic. This is merely an excuse to ignore the fact that the endgame content team does not have the manpower to create raids in a reasonable amount of time as well as other content.

 

My comment was meant as an addition to the other post describing how resources that were initially budgeted for other parts of the game had to be diverted to do damage control. It was not meant as any form of an excuse. Just to state that you missed significant issues in your assessment.

[orangenee]

I know me and Tux Disagree on many things, but I 100% AGREE HERE.

 

I'll third this.

 

I grow weary of yap yap yapping my way through the much vaunted story stuff and are leaning towards more go here, kill stuff type content which is largely group stuff such as vet FPs (eventually MM when I git gudder) and raiding. PvP is an aside as too much salt is bad for you.

 

BW tried to be clever with IT HAS STORY AND MMO STUFF TOO setup but it really didn't work out.

 

Trying to please 3 groups of players was never going to work with a limited budget. Especially if they insist on these fancy pants trailers I never watch.

[olagatonjedi]

Ops will definitely continue to be added to the game, but it may not be at the time frame that you, or anyone specific, would like.

 

Personally, I think 1 new operation every 2-3 years is ideal

Edited October 14, 2017 by olagatonjedi

[FerkWork]

Uprisings were meant to be casual, more accessible versions of flashpoints, not operations. You claim the "MMO playerbase enjoys raiding," but how many raiders are actually left? There had not been a single raid in two years, and the one that's being developed is less than ideal.

 

I think what the "MMO playerbase enjoys" is content, and this game has nothing due to being over-extended trying to make a single raid.

 

 

 

It's funny you say that, considering I was a progression raider for years (had the first republic group to clear NiM EV on Shien) and did progression raiding in SWG. The difference here is SWTOR raiding has found itself to be incredibly underwhelming and largely not rewarding. It's probably the most lackluster raiding I've ever seen in any MMO, and the amount of effort it takes to make these raids is not worth it.

 

I like many others say more group content and Ops and Devs will stay the course or kill the game. The few haters can hate on group content if they are into that I'll be enjoying the group content and more Ops on the way. MM is also coming.

 

 

 

SWTOR has gone through several progression revisions. GC is hardly the first or even the most dramatic. This is merely an excuse to ignore the fact that the endgame content team does not have the manpower to create raids in a reasonable amount of time as well as other content.

 

 

 

That comparison doesn't work, and I'll explain why. BioWare has had a dedicated structure built for storytelling for the past 15 years. They have an incredibly efficient pipeline for VO, dialogue creation, and cutscenes. None of that is difficult for BioWare to make, as the game was built from the ground up with that in mind.

 

Operations, on the other hand, is a whole different ball of wax.

 

EV NiM is just one OP and waiving old progression on an OP (and easy as always) before they made hit their stride with EC going forward is just silly. . Have you cleared every NiM Boss and all the HMs and timed runs? If not then your basis of what raids are lackluster is just incomplete and thus absurd. The point stands you obviously hate raiding and want to see it remove. I say remove the hate instead.

Edited October 15, 2017 by FerkWork

[DuchessKristania]

To be honest, I think we're in the middle of a transition period and that we're not going to have an accurate picture to draw assumptions until after the serever merges are complete. That's my hope at any rate. I was not happy about the server merges initially, but it sounds like they're trying to do a general overhaul with the hope of improving gameplay. Sorry folks, I'm an optimist, lol.