Would you be interested (more interested)in Cartel packs if...

[Andryah]

Well yeah, but what I was suggesting was by no means replacing the current system, just adding another. Therefore you'll still be able to buy items of the GTN from those who would choose to buy the packs that do have items for resale.

 

This is an even worse idea as it simply drives players in one direction over another. You cannot have it both ways.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Andryah

[Eshvara]

This is an even worse idea as it simply drives players in one direction over another. You cannot have it both ways.

What do you mean exactly by drives players in one direction over another?

[Andryah]

I never said you couldn't though.

 

Yes.. you did.

 

Now.. if you want to go back and revise your OP to make it more clear that what you really want is your idea as "yet another option" to acquiring packs or pack contents.. fine. But until you move that goal post.. you are bound by your original statements.....

 

The packs were half the price of what they are now or at least reduce by a decent amount, but the option to trade them when the timer runs out would no longer be there, and you won't ever be able to sell the items you got to other players. They are solely meant to use for yourself alone.

 

And in closing.. the only rational answer to someone not wanting the RNG of packs IS DIRECT SALE. And NO... not immediate direct sale as that would cannibalize the pack market as much of the frenzy around opening packs is for those super rare items.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Andryah

[TUXs]

Why not just make the items direct sale then, instead of keeping them as gambling packs with no way to get rid of the things you don't want but someone else might?

THIS is how Bioware can easily increase sales. Direct sale of the most expensive items on the GTN...Bioware clearly knows what players want, and many would prefer to pay real money for the items vs. 50+ million credits.

[LunaticFringer]

Not really. I'm pretty well full on the other spectrum of things. I'd rather see mmorpgs in general, SWTOR included, go back to traditional ways.

 

Get rid of the cartel market entirely including the bloated regurgitated mix and match reskin filled packs and go back to Subscriptions paying for these items being added to the game via quests and the like.

[Andryah]

I'd rather see mmorpgs in general, SWTOR included, go back to traditional ways.

 

Me too, but that ship sailed years ago in the MMO market. As a pragmatist... I understand why and that old classic MMO approaches to item acquisition is not coming back.

[Eshvara]

Yes.. you did.

 

Now.. if you want to go back and revise your OP to make it more clear that what you really want is your idea as "yet another option" to acquiring packs or pack contents.. fine. But until you move that goal post.. you are bound by your original statements.....

 

While I could have made it more clearly, I did not explicitly stated than one would replace the other. But I could see why one may see as if I was.

 

Not really. I'm pretty well full on the other spectrum of things. I'd rather see mmorpgs in general, SWTOR included, go back to traditional ways.

 

Get rid of the cartel market entirely including the bloated regurgitated mix and match reskin filled packs and go back to Subscriptions paying for these items being added to the game via quests and the like.

 

Me too, but that won't ever happen unfortunately. Micro transactions will always be something EA will use and more gaming corporations are joining in.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Eshvara

[Andryah]

What do you mean exactly by drives players in one direction over another?

 

Players, being humans, are clever and will quickly sort out the path of least resistance and will follow that path, and only that path.

 

You now suggest you want to offer a 3rd alternative (rather then replacement) to random packs or direct purchase options that exist today... but you want to remove an element that is a core advantage of those two paths (free trade/sell between players) and you want your approach to be so rich in terms of guarantees (great odds, lower prices, yada yada) that it will kill off sales of packs as we now know them, it will kill off direct sales to a good degree as well, and it will freeze up the player economy due to a no-trade induced famine of items in your no trade no sell pack scheme.

 

Look.. I get it.. you don't like the current approach of packs. But it in no way harms you, as each player can and will decide 1) do they want to take a chance on random pack contents 2) do they want to instead buy items directly from other players on the GTN.. for known fair market prices rather then taking a chance on packs. 3) refuse to ever participate in pack contents period (and I honestly doubt more then a few percent of players would walk this path).

 

You, from your comments, appear to fall into number 2 above... so regardless how they load packs and price them.. you can and will get your needs met via method 2.. and without impacting the rest of the player base with your narrow and destructive (to the economy) preference.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Andryah

[TUXs]

I'd rather see mmorpgs in general, SWTOR included, go back to traditional ways.

As much as I'd love this too, there's simply too much money to be made from direct sales. The companies don't care how much time you have invested in the game, they only care about how much money you've invested in it.

 

The CM rewards those who spend extra money...and it's actually a very smart way of increasing income from a game. For as much as I think Bioware does wrong, they've been remarkably good with keeping CM items pure vanity. I would give the SWTOR cash shop a 10/10 rating. NOTHING is, or has been, P2W, everything to this day is purely cosmetic. Making CM crystals have a +51 rating vs. +41 would be a HUGE boon for them...yet they've avoided that. I can't express how well I feel the CM has been handled by Bioware...the guy in charge of that should be promoted.

[Andryah]

Me too, but that won't ever happen unfortunately. Micro transactions will always be something EA will use and more gaming corporations are joining in.

 

You make it sound like EA invented the approach. That is a distortion of the facts. Microtransactions were already prolific in the MMO market before SWTOR went live in late 2011. The AAA studio that actually trailblazed this a decade ago was Turbine, with LoTRO. Others quickly began following suit, because they saw that it actually works with the player base. SWTORs big mistake when it went live was to be completely behind the curve on this shift in the market and thinking they could do what a rare few MMOs with large and long installed customer bases to rely on periodic resubs could do.... run as subscription only.

 

It is however true that just about every MMO now, and in the future will follow a similar model... because it has proven to work well for both studios and players in the changing landscape of the MMO player base.

 

Note: microtransactions, and the flexible access models that come with them, is actually good for the MMO market and the players. Why? Because it enables players to invest in an MMO the way they choose to.. and to the degree they choose to... while also being given the ability to play an MMO without having to keep a subscription active. This enables players to move around the various MMOs more (thus having options other then boredom) .. and this enables more MMOs to sustain profitability (even at smaller population scales) which in turn gives players more choices in the market. If the studios did not adapt to a changing market.. there would be fewer MMOs live and therefore fewer choices for players.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Andryah

[Eshvara]

You make it sound like EA invented the approach.

 

I said they love to use it and they do, whatever additional feelings you want to apply to me saying so isn't relevant. If I did somehow thought they did invent it, I would have no problem stating so.

 

Players, being humans, are clever and will quickly sort out the path of least resistance and will follow that path, and only that path.

 

You now suggest you want to offer a 3rd alternative (rather then replacement) to random packs or direct purchase options that exist today... but you want to remove an element that is a core advantage of those two paths (free trade/sell between players) and you want your approach to be so rich in terms of guarantees (great odds, lower prices, yada yada) that it will kill off sales of packs as we now know them, it will kill off direct sales to a good degree as well, and it will freeze up the player economy due to a no-trade induced famine of items in your no trade no sell pack scheme.

 

Look.. I get it.. you don't like the current approach of packs. But it in no way harms you, as each player can and will decide 1) do they want to take a chance on random pack contents 2) do they want to instead buy items directly from other players on the GTN.. for known fair market prices rather then taking a chance on packs. 3) refuse to ever participate in pack contents period (and I honestly doubt more then a few percent of players would walk this path).

 

You, from your comments, appear to fall into number 2 above... so regardless how they load packs and price them.. you can and will get your needs met via method 2.. and without impacting the rest of the player base with your narrow and destructive (to the economy) preference.

 

I don't think I really fall under any of those. While I do take option #2 to when I can, which is very rarely with prices as they are.

I myself would buy a pack for a lesser price, without being able to sell the contents, even if the chance were to remain as low as it is. Have a broader chance on getting different items rather than having to spend a certain amount for just one thing. The direct sales are nice and an improvement and when an item I want is available I get it. So far none of that I wanted have been.

 

It's fine if you don't find this a good idea at all, that's your opinion and there's nothing wrong with that.

I'm not trying to change your mind, just making what I think clear, as you are as well.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Eshvara

[Andryah]

I said they love to use it and they do, whatever additional feelings you want to apply to me saying so isn't relevant. If I did somehow thought they did invent it, I would have no problem stating so.

 

OK.. I can see we are just going to go in circles here because you say one thing... then say you mean something else. I can only go by what you actually write.. and you wrote:

 

Micro transactions will always be something EA will use and more gaming corporations are joining in.

 

This discussion is unproductive at this point because I honestly cannot tell what you do and do not mean on this topic.. you keep moving the goal posts.

 

One thing is clear though... you lack a credit wealth generation plan in game, and you do not like the random nature of packs at the prices being charged (even though it is likely most packs are purchased using CCs there were never directly purchased by players for real money). Basically.. you want great super rare items and you want them at discount price guarantees. THAT will never happen in a player driven economy though... so you will have to adapt to the reality of the player economy, or forego parts of it (which is fine).

 

In any MMO where there is a player driven economy with formal transaction methods (like the GTN and secure trading) the first thing I always do is develop a plan for creating wealth in game at a pace that exceeds my planned expenses. It gives me the financial freedom in game to pursue whatever I want to pursue.. and has worked well for me for years across multiple MMOs. And as the expense curve increases over time, generally so does the income generation curve. See.. I look at the player economy and item sales/trading as just another part of the challenge of an MMO.. and one I have learned over the years to put on largely on auto-pilot for the most part after initial ramp up. By this I mean that I can create income while not in the game and can save said income and use it later for things I want to purchase. This also inoculates me from any direct dependence on buying and opening packs and taking my chances with the contents. A lot of players have figured this out as well and apply a plan of their own design to achieve the level of wealth freedom they want in game.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Andryah

[Eshvara]

OK.. I can see we are just going to go in circles here because you say one thing... then say you mean something else. I can only go by what you actually write.. and you wrote:

 

 

 

This discussion is unproductive at this point because I honestly cannot tell what you do and do not mean on this topic.. you keep moving the goal posts.

 

One thing is clear though... you lack a credit wealth generation plan in game, and you do not like the random nature of packs at the prices being charged (even though it is likely most packs are purchased using CCs there were never directly purchased by players for real money). Basically.. you want great super rare items and you want them at discount price guarantees. THAT will never happen in a player driven economy though... so you will have to adapt to the reality of the player economy, or forego parts of it (which is fine).

 

In any MMO where there is a player driven economy with formal transaction methods (like the GTN and secure trading) the first thing I always do is develop a plan for creating wealth in game at a pace that exceeds my planned expenses. It gives me the financial freedom in game to pursue whatever I want to pursue.. and has worked well for me for years across multiple MMOs. And as the expense curve increases over time, generally so does the income generation curve. See.. I look at the player economy and item sales/trading as just another part of the challenge of an MMO.. and one I have learned over the years to put on auto-pilot for the most part after initial ramp up. By this I mean that I can create income while not in the game and can save said income and use it later for things I want to purchase. This also inoculates me from any direct dependence on buying and opening packs and taking my chances with the contents. A lot of players have figured this out as well and apply a plan of their own design to achieve the level of wealth freedom they want in game.

 

EA loves micro transactions, some companies don't engage in them, at least not on the level they do at EA. It's becoming more of a thing with more companies with more items and loot crates on sale.

 

As for me wanting rare items for a discount, the value of the packs and the amount they cost is the price because of the GTN value. Remove the option to sell them(for the separate system) and the value of the packs should not remain that way. Because aside from you having said item, it has no value.

The chances can remain however low it is.

 

But I agree, there's clearly a lack of understanding between us on the subject, I don't know what else to do and regurgitating the same stuff isn't very appealing. I accept you don't like the idea and like I said, that's ok.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Eshvara

[Quraswren]

Yeah, quite a lot of people feel the same way, but gambling is never really on your side so what can you say really. ;/

It's no worse than scratching tickets or going to the casino.😶 Well without the RL benefit of making bank when you do win.

 

There are at least certain regulations to allow a bit of fairness to casinos. bioware just blatantly screws you over in RNG and how they weight things on their end that we will never see with no oversight to how they manipulate things.

 

I'm with the poster below. I inherently distrust the packs and biowares design of them. Direct sales only please.

 

It wouldn't make any difference to me. I buy direct sale stuff and that's it, I'm inherently distrustful of these "packs", even the word sounds scammy and turns me off.

[Eshvara]

There are at least certain regulations to allow a bit of fairness to casinos. bioware just blatantly screws you over in RNG and how they weight things on their end that we will never see with no oversight to how they manipulate things.

 

I'm with the poster below. I inherently distrust the packs and biowares design of them. Direct sales only please.

 

I don't blame you! In China they have to show players the chance of in game loot crates and RNG systems that cost real life money.

I don't see why that isn't a thing in the west.🤔

[Andryah]

I don't blame you! In China they have to show players the chance of in game loot crates and RNG systems that cost real life money.

I don't see why that isn't a thing in the west.🤔

 

And in China... subscriptions are illegal. It's all microtransaction based.. with one key microtransaction being play time which is purchased in tokens-for-minutes of time to access a game like WoW. Business requirements for MMOs in China are completely irrelevant to business requirements in the West.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Andryah

[Eshvara]

And in China... subscriptions are illegal. It's all microtransaction based.. with one key microtransaction being play time which is purchased in tokens-for-minutes of time to access a game like WoW. Business requirements for MMOs in China are completely irrelevant to business requirements in the West.

Is it? As far as I'm aware, WoW still requires subscription in China although it works differently. There is a fee.

[CKNORTH]

I would love crates to cost around $15-$20 USD because the only real GTN maker items is the Jawa Junk for the pet Afection items!

 

Jawa and the Last Crusade I tell you!!!

[orangenee]

I don't blame you! In China they have to show players the chance of in game loot crates and RNG systems that cost real life money.

I don't see why that isn't a thing in the west.🤔

 

Never tell me the odds.

[Eshvara]

Never tell me the odds.

 

I guess it would be a bad move if the chances were bad, imagine all the people that would potentially no longer purchase loot crates!🤔

Now we can all at least pretend they aren't! (Sort of)

[Andryah]

Is it? As far as I'm aware, WoW still requires subscription in China although it works differently. There is a fee.

 

You purchase time tokens and apply them as you play in China.. for those few MMOs there that rely on a subscription model outside of China. You CANNOT purchase a subscription for unlimited 7/24 access to an MMO in China. I have no idea how China handles the Korean MMOs that are essentially free to play + microtransactions which IS the Korean model for MMOs in Asia.

 

The government of China feels that MMOs are dangerous when allowed to be used in an unlimited manner in China. Their basis for this is people actually playing MMOs for multiple days at a time... and a few people actually died of exhaustion. And no.. there were not RMTs... they were just local citizens obsessed with playing the MMO.

 

China also requires that any MMO with local server presence in China (like WoW) must use a 3rd party Chinese company to host and manage the servers and all revenue collection.

 

It is likely that it is obsessive players that are also behind the new requirements to disclose the odds for contents of loot boxes... which by the way covers all loot boxes, not just mircrotransaction sourced loot boxes.

 

Net... net.. the China market is very different and not comparable to NA and EU. It is somewhat similar with other Asian country markets.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Andryah

[Thruine]

I can't remember the last time I bought any pack. I'm not even sure if I bought something from the market or a pack itself its been so long. The packs are just a gambling option I'm not interested in. The market itself could be so much better once you look at collections but at those prices there's always the feeling of I could do something more worthwhile with my monthly allowance. Yeah, i haven't bought any coins or chips or whatever they're called (its really been that long, its coins isn't it?) I'm really over this whole micro-transaction stuff everywhere. Not only does it not end up adding anything to the game but its just boring. About the only thing I've shown an interest in is weapon tuning but you can barely see those. I've never seen one in the game but I'm sure someone must have had one in all that time.

 

So i'd be more interested in cartel packs if they just disappeared and something actually cool was done to get me to spend. Gambling won't do it and I'm not a big fan of the idea that someone out there gets complete junk at some point for their money. I haven't liked every single item but its not actually junk. Just something that really doesn't do anything for me. And I haven't unlocked even half my appearance tab and already have too many. The stuff they want us to throw money at is just so pointless. I can barely see it. Others can barely see it. Look at your game and think what would look cool. If its armor texture you need to find new work.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Thruine

[kodrac]

Nah this is like what ESO does (minus the less price). I can buy multiple crates and have nothing to show for it. At least here I can sell the stuff I don't want and duplicates and get game cash to buy what I do want and other people can get the things they want. Everyone wins.

[LunaticFringer]

As much as I'd love this too, there's simply too much money to be made from direct sales. The companies don't care how much time you have invested in the game, they only care about how much money you've invested in it.

 

The CM rewards those who spend extra money...and it's actually a very smart way of increasing income from a game. For as much as I think Bioware does wrong, they've been remarkably good with keeping CM items pure vanity. I would give the SWTOR cash shop a 10/10 rating. NOTHING is, or has been, P2W, everything to this day is purely cosmetic. Making CM crystals have a +51 rating vs. +41 would be a HUGE boon for them...yet they've avoided that. I can't express how well I feel the CM has been handled by Bioware...the guy in charge of that should be promoted.

 

Oh, I know, and I don't even remember if anyone here remembers back on the SWG forums... but I do recall raising a big stink when they brought this to us there in the form of that Trading Card Game. I guess at least "that" much would be appreciated here. At least tie this stuff into some kind of side game we can play as long as you're going to stick it to us, yeah?

[Thruine]

Nah this is like what ESO does (minus the less price). I can buy multiple crates and have nothing to show for it. At least here I can sell the stuff I don't want and duplicates and get game cash to buy what I do want and other people can get the things they want. Everyone wins.

 

I agree that being able to sell is actually a cool option. And they are priced pretty reasonably. They have made some improvements I hear (complete armor sets instead of the three lower half which was my last hurrah with them). I think they probably ought to be regulation by who ever oversees gambling like any other casino. I'm fine with spending the money its just they aren't doing anything interesting. I'm more likely to respond to the older stuff than what new stuff they've been doing. At least there its interesting and different. Still disagree with the notion of here's the bottom half so you will spend more to get the top half. That's what killed them for me but I was barely buying as it was.

 

And man we are so lucky in terms of pricing compared to ESO. Bethesda should just replace their company logo with Dracula.

 

Oh, I wanted to add I heard that some Asia country was threatening to treat these as gambling (ie they'd disappear) and that's why some games added the chance percentage to them. Sort of trying to get them to back off. But with EA and every other company adding these things to every single game (that's what they mean by a live service in games... they serve these things you buy). With them doing this in so many games its going to get the government's attention because when there's money in something there must be some way to tax it. And this will eventually regulated since kids play games, Just too much money for them not to.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Thruine