Class Changes: Vengeance Juggernaut / Vigilance Guardian

[Quraswren]

How is it possible to be so far off hitting a target balance by 60% especially so when they control all the design from the ground up?

 

Does bioware just not know what they are doing? 60% off what they call a target.

 

It's almost unbelievable but there it is.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Quraswren

[supertimtaf]

How is it possible to be so far off hitting a target balance by 60% especially so when they control all the design from the ground up?

 

Does bioware just not know what they are doing? 60% off what they call a target.

 

It's almost unbelievable but there it is.

 

The damage done by this utility was a bit over the top tbh, but I agree with you that 60% is a big hit. Surprising that they prefered to nerf this specific utility and leave the broken one for merc, snipers and maybe mara...

It only shows that they are balancing class in a way that don't take the whole game into consideration for now, but I may be talking too soon. We'll see with the next batch of nerf.

[KendraP]

Thanks for destroying an only viable side of a juggernaut in PVP - damage. Keep doing more autistic stuff, bioware. DON'T FORGET TO BUFF MERC'S SHIELD.

 

- Nightrain

 

While I don't think it's quite that bad, I will say seeing 60% scares me a bit. Especially seeing the numbers on the buffs. I'm no theory crafted though so I guess I'll have to wait and see.

[oli-fynnobi]

Thanks for destroying an only viable side of a juggernaut in PVP - damage. Keep doing more autistic stuff, bioware. DON'T FORGET TO BUFF MERC'S SHIELD.

 

- Nightrain

 

but....but..."DevNotes: Chilling Scream / Freezing Force was doing too much damage with the Piercing Chill / Persistent Chill utility.".....chilling stream was totally op

 

Jokes aside! I totally agree with Nightrain, this is so stupid. Juggernaut's only viable in Regs, and that just because of the damage (Ranked is such a joke for a Jugg DPS, and I know what I'm talking about: 700 Games s8 only Jugg Dps ) and now you reducing it? Seriously?

Edited September 21, 2017 by oli-fynnobi

[Eli_Porter]

60% of its original value instead of 60% less seems much more reasonable to me.

 

Tanks need this ability to maintain pack aggro close to PT/Sin levels.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Eli_Porter

[AdjeYo]

Tanks need this ability to maintain pack aggro close to PT/Sin levels.

No they don't, jugg AoE threath is fine.

[Thaladan]

ok why not nerf a lot this utility if both dps spec are buffed..BUT :

 

i can't imagine you will remain this utility at legendary tier ?!? seriously, be logic.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Thaladan

[Isagoras]

I'm concerned for the Rage spec but we will see what will be done to compensate that.

 

The other part of Piercing Chill is "increasing your movement speed by 35%" so you nerf the damage part of it so you should up the bonus speed part maybe from 35% to 40% even 45%. Try to follow theses days in pvp mercenaries, marauder, sorcerer, assassin, operative, sniper, powertech with your juggernaut. You can't follow them, they just move too quickly for you.

 

I know that Chilling Scream reducing the movement speed of the ennemy but theses days all classes have something to just ignore it : an utility on force speed, an utility on predation, Hydraulic Overrides, Exfiltrate...

[GrandLordMenace]

Change is good. I do think that the rotation will now be missing an extra filler every so often, that will probably be filled by Force Push or Force Stasis. In an ideal world, I would've liked to see a focus reduction to the cost of Slash / Vicious Slash, to fill that void. Making that ability cost 2 focus for vengeance (leading to a net cost of 1) would do wonders to fill the rotational void formerly filled by freezing force.

[AdjeYo]

Change is good. I do think that the rotation will now be missing an extra filler every so often, that will probably be filled by Force Push or Force Stasis. In an ideal world, I would've liked to see a focus reduction to the cost of Slash / Vicious Slash, to fill that void. Making that ability cost 2 focus for vengeance (leading to a net cost of 1) would do wonders to fill the rotational void formerly filled by freezing force.

 

I think saber throw slots in fairly decently. You might even use a non procced Hew once in a while. Though I probably wouldn't try it without enrage available to back it up.

[Equeliber]

Change is good. I do think that the rotation will now be missing an extra filler every so often, that will probably be filled by Force Push or Force Stasis. In an ideal world, I would've liked to see a focus reduction to the cost of Slash / Vicious Slash, to fill that void. Making that ability cost 2 focus for vengeance (leading to a net cost of 1) would do wonders to fill the rotational void formerly filled by freezing force.

 

Yep, exactly same thoughts. There were moments on the rotation where freezing force was exactly enough for not running out of resources. The +1 difference on slash makes it so you can't actually use it, that little spot for filler is going to be messy. Feels really bad to use force stasis there.

[Equeliber]

I think saber throw slots in fairly decently. You might even use a non procced Hew once in a while. Though I probably wouldn't try it without enrage available to back it up.

 

I tested it recently. Tried the rotation without freezing force. Saber throw would be good but if you open with it, it is still on cd when this filler moment comes. And unprocced Hew has same issue as slash - costs 3. Force push, force choke or assault are the only options.

[merovejec]

Finnaly a nerf to that AoE utility that was crazy damage from tanks in PVP

[AdjeYo]

I tested it recently. Tried the rotation without freezing force. Saber throw would be good but if you open with it, it is still on cd when this filler moment comes. And unprocced Hew has same issue as slash - costs 3. Force push, force choke or assault are the only options.

Yes unprocced Hew costs 3, but that's why I said you only want to use it when you have enrage to back you up. Though some fights you'd probably still be able to use it because of rage generated by taking damage.

That said, maybe a proc for retaliation would work, as it costs 2 rage, the same as chilling scream

[winky]

Allright, I have tried to parse without using chilling scream at all (simulate not having the utility).

 

Previous high parse: 9898 DPS

 

"Current" High parse: 9434 DPS

 

According to my previous high parse, when i applied approximate effect, which should boost the dps by ~4%, it should bring me to (9434*1.04) = 9811 DPS

If it is 1.05, that should make it equal. If that is true, congratulations for the calculations guys, hope it works. The speed buff is troublesome tho.

 

For Rage spec, it's different matter. They are missing ~1800DPS from chilling scream. Let's see how they plan to offest that

[DerSchneider]

Finnaly a nerf to that AoE utility that was crazy damage from tanks in PVP

 

Smash mara tears? Do you realise how mediocre jugg tanks's aoe is compared to PT? What about speed boost, while already being the least mobile tank now we also lose a speed boost, because the utility is a joke.

 

I knew this, I always knew when bioware announced that stupid balancing system with that melee-sustained-quasi-******** that in jugg case they'll gonna break their own logic and nerf the class that should be buffed.

Edited September 21, 2017 by DerSchneider

[supertimtaf]

Smash mara tears? Do you realise how mediocre jugg tanks's aoe is compared to PT? What about speed boost, while already being the least mobile tank now we also lose a speed boost, because the utility is a joke

 

Yeah, I don't think this could go in the Legendary tier anymore :/

[ivanhedgehog]

Finnaly a nerf to that AoE utility that was crazy damage from tanks in PVP

 

they need to use a filter that removes all attacks except basic in pvp. that way you would have the balance you crave. Change is good. deleting all your characters and making you start over is change, so it must be a good idea.

[AdjeYo]

Smash mara tears? Do you realise how mediocre jugg tanks's aoe is compared to PT? What about speed boost, while already being the least mobile tank now we also lose a speed boost, because the utility is a joke.

 

You can still get the utility you know, we're not losing the speed boost on it, there just might be better options. Especially considering Juggs mobility is not as bad as it was during the 3.0 era.

[KendraP]

Finnaly a nerf to that AoE utility that was crazy damage from tanks in PVP

 

As a person who currently plays skank in PvP I believe you exaggerate the damage output. That said it there is crazy aoe off tanks, it's from people like me who run skanks and properly keep guardian slash buffed.

 

I'm just hoping this doesn't hurt the already squishy dps specs in PvP. Seriously, I tried vigi in war zones for months. Finally had enough double digit deaths in matches and went back to doing what I was good at.

[Aderes]

I finally get a decent addition to my multi-target tanking and it's getting nerfed to hell... perfect.

[KendraP]

I finally get a decent addition to my multi-target tanking and it's getting nerfed to hell... perfect.

 

I actually feel this hits tanks least as I use it least on my tank to begin with. I always take the point certainly, but it will still be another aoe ability, and we still have force sweep, cyclone slash, and if you buff it guardian slash. Also saber reflect is incredibly useful in fights with a lot of ranged mobs as it is high threat on all of them, and will probably reflect quite a bit of ranged damage.

 

Part of the trick with tanking aoe is to remember that taunts work by a multiplier off the highest current threat. What I see people doing when I'm not tanking is leaping in and aoe taunting. I find it more effective to leap in, do some aoe and then aoe taunt. Even if the only threat you are multiplying is your own, you will gain more by holding off on the taunt for a split second.

 

Single target tanking, I used it relatively rarely anyway so meh I don't see it changing much for me. It's vigi/focus that should be worried about it. Even then, if the buff to the other abilities is good enough, the spec will be fine. As I have said, I'm no theory crafter so I can only wait and see like anyone else.

[SithSpits]

Right now Chilling Scream is probably overpowered in PVP.

 

The 3 hardest hitting abilities do about 13k each. Yes, I understand they may do (much) more or less, I'm just going by the numbers on the interface:

 

Shatter

Impale

Hew

 

Chilling Scream can do 8200 damage (base combined with Utility). Two people hit is over 16k, three people is over 24k, etc. Having just two people hit by your Chilling Scream does more damage then your 3 hardest hitting abilities.

 

Now with the upcoming 60% nerf to the utility, it will do 3400.

 

You will need to hit 4 people to equal the damage of Shatter, Impale, or Hew.

You will need to hit 3 people to equal the damage of Ravage (over 10k).

Your second most basic attack, Vicious Slash, will do more damage then 2 people hit by your Chilling Scream.

 

With the upcoming nerf, it seems vastly underpowered.

 

Again, my whole premise is just based off the numerical damage on the interface. I do know they can do much less, or much more if they crit.

 

Thoughts?

Edited September 21, 2017 by SithSpits

[AdjeYo]

Right now Chilling Scream is probably overpowered in PVP.

 

The 3 hardest hitting abilities do about 13k each. Yes, I understand they may do (much) more or less, I'm just going by the numbers on the interface:

 

Shatter

Impale

Hew

 

Chilling Scream can do 8200 damage (base combined with Utility). Two people hit is over 16k, three people is over 24k, etc. Having just two people hit by your Chilling Scream does more damage then your 3 hardest hitting abilities.

 

Now with the upcoming 60% nerf to the utility, it will do 3400.

 

You will need to hit 4 people to equal the damage of Shatter, Impale, or Hew.

You will need to hit 3 people to equal the damage of Ravage (over 10k).

Your second most basic attack, Vicious Slash, will do more damage then 2 people hit by your Chilling Scream.

 

With the upcoming nerf, it seems vastly underpowered.

 

Again, my whole premise is just based off the numerical damage on the interface. I do know they can do much less, or much more if they crit.

 

Thoughts?

 

Don't forget to take mitigation in account. Internal/Elemental damage will do more damage than Energy/Kinetic damage when the tooltip value for the damage is equal. In it's current iteration Chilling Scream will deal more damage than Hew.

Edited September 21, 2017 by AdjeYo

[KendraP]

Ok so I just had some time to do some math.

 

Can an actual theory crafter convince me that the 45% increase to burning blade and overall 6% increase to burnmaster actually outweighs the 60% nerf to freezing force? Because if vigi is supposed to be 5% OVER the average/target dps I don't see why we are getting what is a net decrease in dps.