Skank Tank or Shank Tank imbalance

[Ansultares]

Yes, some. But the argument was survivability without DCDs.

The argument may have been, but your point which I responded to was in regards to a specific and now resolved bug giving sins obscene levels of armor.

 

 

Specifically, sins are going to look damn impressive with that kind of bug, because they have some strong anti-yellow DCDs, and the bug gave them near-max anti-white mitigation.

 

Whereas, the same bug wouldn't be quite so impressive on a jugg, because they're still quite susceptible to yellow.

 

Anyway, you've conveniently side-stepped the prevailing counterpoint, that mitigation stats are too weak to justify equipping given the game's combat mechanics.

 

And also that, in your idealized version of PVP tanking, the tank would spend considerable GCDs doing absolutely nothing.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Ansultares

[Kurj]

I've run PVP with full mitigation gear, and it's not that you're doing *nothing* if your leaps/taunts/CCs/DCDs are down - it's more like throwing pebbles to raise the water level in a bucket. You know you're doing something, but it takes a long time to see any progress.

 

This thread is interesting, mostly because we have some great info on base game mechanics courtesy of our veterans. But, I don't think the suggestions will work in regs because there is no match-making. Hybrids are a necessary by-product of that fact, IMO.

[Evolixe]

The argument may have been, but your point which I responded to was in regards to a specific and now resolved bug giving sins obscene levels of armor.

 

 

Specifically, sins are going to look damn impressive with that kind of bug, because they have some strong anti-yellow DCDs, and the bug gave them near-max anti-white mitigation.

 

Whereas, the same bug wouldn't be quite so impressive on a jugg, because they're still quite susceptible to yellow.

 

Anyway, you've conveniently side-stepped the prevailing counterpoint, that mitigation stats are too weak to justify equipping given the game's combat mechanics.

 

And also that, in your idealized version of PVP tanking, the tank would spend considerable GCDs doing absolutely nothing.

 

How can I be "convieniently dodging questions" if I have no way of knowing what you meant in the first place? Not like you put a whole lot of context in your post, did you now?

 

Ill post something a bit more comprehensive later today as I'm working right now.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Evolixe

[Liquor]

I've run PVP with full mitigation gear, and it's not that you're doing *nothing* if your leaps/taunts/CCs/DCDs are down - it's more like throwing pebbles to raise the water level in a bucket. You know you're doing something, but it takes a long time to see any progress.

 

This thread is interesting, mostly because we have some great info on base game mechanics courtesy of our veterans. But, I don't think the suggestions will work in regs because there is no match-making. Hybrids are a necessary by-product of that fact, IMO.

 

The biggest thing to take away from running mit gear is, yes the incoming damage you'll take is less. You'll be using DCDs less. But you won't hit as hard. BUT it's valuable in holding situations. There are times during defense it's better to keep them off the door or pylon instead of out bursting them. Especially when they have more healers. That alone hurts the enemies DPS potential. This is where a mitigation set would be more desirable than the DPS or high HP sets.

 

Healers will notice the mit gear as well. They won't be as pressure to keep pumping your tank full of bacta. The damage you take is smoother and not as spikey when compared to the DPS set.

 

I've been getting on teams vs more healers than mine, at times I won't have a healer. Usually when I'm testing I'm solo. I want to see how it works without a dedicated healer in my group.

 

DPS has been king for a while now. Everyone is tunneling immortal spec using DPS mods, Enhancements, augments and left side. But I've lost count how many times I've held off a node alone or with 1 other I guard or a round or till we have enough points that a 3 cap is the only way to win. Or holding off a pylon cap for a round. When the DPS numbers take a back seat and staying up to prevent spam capping while help rotates over. This has been lost on many players for some time.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Liquor

[supertimtaf]

But I've lost count how many times I've held off a node alone or with 1 other I guard or a round or till we have enough points that a 3 cap is the only way to win. Or holding off a pylon cap for a round. When the DPS numbers take a back seat and staying up to prevent spam capping while help rotates over. This has been lost on many players for some time.

 

I remember, when my guildmate still played the game, we were going on a simple comp, sin tank, mara dot. I was in full mitigation gear and we were basically jumping to an enemy node at the same time. Guard on the mara + taunt on the opponent, the heals done by the mara would generally be enough for me to recover.

Never underestimate a tank with a dps

Edited August 24, 2017 by supertimtaf

[Severith]

Again, the reason these calculations are out there is because you said "Skank tanks are just as easily killed as a DPS without cooldowns" That is complete and absolute bull. Even after all sorts of Armor Penetration..,

unless something COMPLETELY ignores armor, tanks take less damage of it. Period.

Any other argument you have is not one I am discussing.

 

 

So, the fact that it is easier to kite (and kill) a skank jugg than a dps jugg when no one has their dcds left is not what you are discussing. But it's what I'm discussing, because that's the statement you attacked me on.

 

And nice, you go to attack me personally on a typo because you couldn't come up with anything good after 3 days to tinker about what you wanted to say.

 

 

I was on a road trip to see the eclipse. Even if I wasn't, I don't come to the forums everyday. There are people who do live on internet forums, and it twists their perceptions. If you need an example, examine a mirror.

 

No, they don't. All the 20% ones do not stack. Each newly applied debuff will replace the last.

 

 

If you actually quoted the whole message, you'd see I was talking about types of armor pen. The types do stack. A debuff stacks with a armor pen ability when used with a class/spec with a passive armor pen. So your whole rant "proving" it doesn't was just a rant on your misconception due to your inability to read, or simply satisfies your intentional misreading of it. Like I said before, context matters.

 

Oh and Anni bleeds don't ignore armor. Once again, this isn't WoW.

Yes I just tested this to be sure.

 

I think you're full of crap.

 

Internal damage isn't mitigated by armor. You've admitted this several times.

 

Anni Bleeds;

Rupture: Internal damage

Force Rend: Internal damage

Deadly Saber: Internal damage

 

So the question is, will you provide proof that anni bleeds don't ignore armor? Or is this just more random/crazy stuff?

 

While you're providing that, please also provide proof that swtor uses your formulas to determine armor pen.

 

Let me ask you, or anyone else this simple question. If armor is reliable in pvp as a defense, why aren't PT skank tanks a thing? Why are the few who try is so easy to kill?

[Evolixe]

I'm not "attacking" you. I'm trying to have an at least somewhat civilized discussion where I prove my story with facts and maths. The only thing you have done so far is say I'm wrong at everything I'm telling without any sort of structural argument.

 

I don't have time to go into more detail right now. I will have plenty more, don't you worry.

[KendraP]

Are we still arguing here? Seriously, I'm not going to repeat myself again guys but jeez you're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

 

Also did someone just try to claim that dps jugs are more survivable than tank juggs when neither have their DCDs? Having played both I can tell you defense >>> vigi in survivability under practically any circumstance.

 

As far as all the dps shadow comparisons I'm not sure what relevance that has to skanking. As I have mentioned a true Skank is a tank spec with dps gear of some sort. If a dps is trying to guard just stomp his squishy self.

[Evolixe]

Are we still arguing here? Seriously, I'm not going to repeat myself again guys but jeez you're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

 

Also did someone just try to claim that dps jugs are more survivable than tank juggs when neither have their DCDs? Having played both I can tell you defense >>> vigi in survivability under practically any circumstance.

 

As far as all the dps shadow comparisons I'm not sure what relevance that has to skanking. As I have mentioned a true Skank is a tank spec with dps gear of some sort. If a dps is trying to guard just stomp his squishy self.

 

The comparisons are made to showcase how retarded it is to argue that DPS specs are more survivable than tank ones when neither have any sort of cooldowns. I used Assassin as an example purely because I main it and I don't have to look up all the passives in the game.

 

But it is even more true for DPS juggs than it is for Assassins. This guy argueing that it isn't is just a laughing stock.

[Severith]

Are we still arguing here? Seriously, I'm not going to repeat myself again guys but jeez you're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

 

Also did someone just try to claim that dps jugs are more survivable than tank juggs when neither have their DCDs? Having played both I can tell you defense >>> vigi in survivability under practically any circumstance.

 

As far as all the dps shadow comparisons I'm not sure what relevance that has to skanking. As I have mentioned a true Skank is a tank spec with dps gear of some sort. If a dps is trying to guard just stomp his squishy self.

 

You actually quoted me on the statement that started this whole thing Kendra. What I said was:

 

" A skank tank without their dcds is just as easy to kill as a regular dps."

 

What Evo read was "skank tanks take just as much damage as regular dps"

 

Then she proceeded to disprove her reading of that statement.

 

Survivability is only one aspect of being "easy to kill". I never argued that skank tanks actually took the same damage, or more. What I argued was simply that skank tanks, beyond their dcds, have very few tricks compared to most dps in terms of staying alive. For example, it's far easier to kite an immortal jugg than either a vengeance or a rage jugg.

 

Taking a larger perspective for a moment, it's obvious that the DR inherent in skank tanks aren't all that useful in pvp, because PT skank tanks aren't really viable. They are more of a DR based tank compared to a dcd jugg or sin. PT skank tanks are not good for pvp, so arguments based off of DR being a huge advantage just seem silly to me. Otherwise PT skank tanks would last longer, and have viability in pvp.

 

So it's the dcds that count for a skank tank. That's where the payoff is. Arguments that skank tanking is overpowered due to any form of DR are simply incorrect.

 

Skank tanks aren't even close to the most unbalanced issues in pvp. But people are getting mad. Nevermind it's literally the only viable playstyle available to jugs at the moment. They got beat by a skank tank, and instead of learning to mitigate the effectiveness of the tank's dcds they just come to complain about the DR.

 

That's because if it's a DR issue then it's Bioware's fault, and not the player's fault ,for not dealing properly with enemy dcds.

[supertimtaf]

That's because if it's a DR issue then it's Bioware's fault, and not the player's fault ,for not dealing properly with enemy dcds.

 

Well, again, this whole topic could have been avoided if the game was balanced properly.

The problem isn't skank alone, it's just that everything since 4.0 has gone to sh*t.

No entertaining group content.

Story is made just because it has to be made.

No more groundbreaking design for swtor player, only for "CM player". Goodbye interesting PvP and PvE Reward, say hello to the cash shop.

I could talk about game optimisation but since I'm not sure if this game has one...

And that's just a few of the problems that everybody is arguing for.

 

Class balance is one of the worst I've ever seen. On one side you've got dps that can face tank anything for three minutes straight and hit like a truck, on the other you have class that must cheat the current broken system by playing tank with dps gear in order to reach the same level. This is where I'd like to say that I find your last statement wrong imo. Even a good player will have trouble dealing with a merc, a sniper, a mara, a skank. Because these DcDs aren't "easy" to bypass. Sure you can bypass some, like Responsive Safeguard, or saber reflect. But don't say that because somebody didn't know how to handle every of those defensives that player is bad. Sure, a player' skill can help dealing with everything, but it won't win everything.

Sure, when you have Evolixe beating the crap out of a merc or an operative with his assassin you could think it is easy, but again, Evolixe isn't exactly what you can call an average or good player. More like an excellent player imo. You shouldn't need to be one of the best around to beat another player that is way less skilled than you but play a broken class.

 

So yeah, I disagree on your last statement here.

We shouldn't be there in the first place to discuss about skank. If skank weren't needed (or were balanced correctly) we wouldn't have this problem, and in this scenario your statement could be right. But here with the current meta I think it's just a good player -or someone who plays a broken class- that says "the others are just really bad".

[Liquor]

Using tank armorings, power mods, and crit enhancements with overkill augments as an immortal juggernaut is not cheating the system.

 

It's moddable gear. You can put whatever you want into it.

 

It's like a sniper running an alacrity build, sure the base damage is down, but you'll be popping off all casted abilities much faster and regenning energy quickly.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Liquor

[supertimtaf]

Using tank armorings, power mods, and crit enhancements with overkill augments as an immortal juggernaut is not cheating the system.

 

It's moddable gear. You can put whatever you want into it.

 

It's like a sniper running an alacrity build, sure the base damage is down, but you'll be popping off all casted abilities much faster and regenning energy quickly.

 

Like I said earlier, the issue isn't that you can do this. Sure that's the point of moddable gear and I fully agree with this.

 

There is a problem imo because now people find a tank with dps gear more usefull than a dps. (I'm speaking for Jugg and PT. Not sure about sin though, both are pretty usefull). There wouldn't be an issue if this was somewhat balanced between both. Put tank gear on a dps, you won't be that usefull. Put dps gear on a tank and you'll be at least as efficient as a dps. The issue is here, like peoples said earlier, you can't have everything. If balance was made properly (imo making skank as squishy as their dps counterpart or reducing their damage done) then there wouldn't be so much people complaining about it.

 

That's the reason why I said "cheat the current broken system". If the system worked properly in the first place there wouldn't be so much harm in playing a skank over a dps spec.

[Liquor]

As a tank in DPS gear at times, good DPS will always out DPS me.

When i lead the boards for DPS, im in a crap WZ with crap players. But win or lose, that's all that matters. The numbers, the stats. It's all anyone cares about. Because it strokes their ego.

 

I can have the worst stats but get 4-5 votes because I'm an objective player. I don't care about numbers, I don't farm them or chase them. Objectives win regs and I run 3 sets of gear on my tank juggs. Just so I can adapt to the WZ and pull a win for my team. Be it as a Solo-Q RegStar or in a Pre-Made.

[Schoock]

Using tank armorings, power mods, and crit enhancements with overkill augments as an immortal juggernaut is not cheating the system.

 

I mean I know this is the internet and you can post here under some random nickname and nobody will ask you on your next job interview what the hell you're smoking, but isn't there a point where you get that strange gut feeling, you know, that you just should stop and not post any more ridiculous sith?

 

It's such a blatant lie you should try being a politician, if you can do these live, I'm sure you have a great career ahead of you.

 

As a tank in DPS gear at times, good DPS will always out DPS me.

 

Skanks (i.e. tanks in damage gear, before Hottie and her grammar commando shows up), while not absolute top tier DPS, easily outdamage, and hell, even outburst some dedicated damage disciplines.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Schoock

[Evolixe]

"A skank tank without their dcds is just as easy to kill as a regular dps."

 

"Skank tanks take just as much damage as regular dps"

 

Those 2 things are the exact same thing. Unless you're talking 1v1's, but who in the hell cares about that?

Do tell me, what does a DPS jugg have that keeps them alive longer than an Immortal jugg?

 

This should be good.

 

 

I mean, they have less Armor, less Damage Reduction, less Defense..

So.. there's got to be something pretty powerful not on a cooldown that keeps a DPS jugg alive.

I'll be looking forward to your reply.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Evolixe

[KendraP]

Having played vigi in pvp i will agree, skanking is light years more useful to the team than the getting wrecked repeatedly that comes from vigi. I do perhaps find myself getting kited a bit more; but i'm also not prioritizing doing damage but preventing it.

 

As for defense doing greater damage than any dedicated dps spec, haha you're funny. if i out dps anyone its because they got focused and died in seconds or they are just not good dps.

[Schoock]

As for defense doing greater damage than any dedicated dps spec, haha you're funny. if i out dps anyone its because they got focused and died in seconds or they are just not good dps.

 

It must be that skank jugg is such a hard spec only the absolute best play it, so it's no surprise they regularly outdamage, or are at least on a par with some damage specs.

[Severith]

Those 2 things are the exact same thing. Unless you're talking 1v1's, but who in the hell cares about that?

Do tell me, what does a DPS jugg have that keeps them alive longer than an Immortal jugg?

 

This should be good.

 

 

I mean, they have less Armor, less Damage Reduction, less Defense..

So.. there's got to be something pretty powerful not on a cooldown that keeps a DPS jugg alive.

I'll be looking forward to your reply.

 

Just checking, but you know there is a difference between fast and easy right? They're not synonyms. Oh, you're bad with words. Synonyms are words that mean the same thing.

 

So your "keeps them alive longer" doesn't correlate to my "easy to kill" statement that has you triggered.

 

But lets pretend for your sake that it is "exactly the same thing" even when it isn't.

 

So lets talk about my favorite spec in the game, veng jugg.

 

You looooove DR right? So lets talk DR.

 

Veng jugs get 20% DR everytime they leap. It's actual DR, not the fake DR you get from armor that gets circumvented. That's in addition to 5 % "real" DR bonus. I can actually get up to 72% DR on my veng jugg, 40% of which is "real" for brief moments. But lets just average out the leap DR into an additional 7%, due to alacrity and good utility choices.

 

That puts my DR in veng spec about 6% behind my immortal spec, except my veng spec has more "real" DR that can't be circumvented with armor pen, internal or elemental damage.

 

Pressure: As veng spec, I can put pressure on my opponent dps wise that I can't do while skank tanking. I can put them on the defensive quicker. This fact should be obvious.

 

Kiting: Due to a veng specs automatic 15% movement increase, as well as cc immunity after a leap, it is far more difficult to kite a veng jugg than a skank tank. That alone makes it easier to kill a skank tank than a veng jugg. A skank tank does have movement increased if their guarded target takes damage, however that also means the skank tank has to stay close to their guarded target, so the ranged don't even need to kite to keep their distance in that situation anyway. Why is that important to being "easy to kill"? See the above point about "Pressure". It also means against hybrids the veng jugg will prevent more los tactics being used against him.

 

So, unless it's against a good sniper, in situations without dcds I'd say immortal jugs and veng jugs are actually comparable in terms of being "easy to kill". (Which for this post is actually still "time to kill" because you don't get the difference.)

[Severith]

It must be that skank jugg is such a hard spec only the absolute best play it, so it's no surprise they regularly outdamage, or are at least on a par with some damage specs.

 

That's a bit of an illusion actually, because against good players skank tanks don't. Skank tanks have cleaves, which can add up to some massive damage if the enemy team is all bunched up. So on some warzones or ranked matches they outdps everyone. It wouldn't happen if the enemies were smarter.

 

It keeps boiling down to a prevailing attitude that people think they don't need to adjust to skank tanks. Well, for jugs, it's the only viable pvp playstyle. So you're going to have to deal with it.

[RafaelPeretz]

Whenever I play my Rage Jugg, I do more damage and more protection than any skank tank in the match. Just cycling your taunts will mitigate a lot of damage for your team, you don't even need to put shield in someone.

 

Only reason to go skank (in a jugg) is to have a higher health pool, so you live a bit longer to get healed and to have your dcds up again. If you don't have a guaranteed healer to be with you in every match, it is a waste of time IMO. Just go dps, you will be more useful.

Edited August 28, 2017 by RafaelPeretz

[Schoock]

It keeps boiling down to a prevailing attitude that people think they don't need to adjust to skank tanks. Well, for jugs, it's the only viable pvp playstyle. So you're going to have to deal with it.

 

And to the also prevailing attitude that skanks think all this, in addition to their waaaaaaay better survivability, is just fine and dandy, because mercs and snipers.

[Severith]

And to the also prevailing attitude that skanks think all this, in addition to their waaaaaaay better survivability, is just fine and dandy, because mercs and snipers.

 

You know who soft cc's me when I pop invincible? Only other skank tanks. Pretty much any other time it's just coincidence.

 

Everyone knows what to do when a merc pops energy shield, or reflect. But no one really thinks enough to study how to deal with immortal spec jugs. You know why?

 

Because they're not even close to being as overpowered as mercs. And snipers are better than merc.

 

You lose pretty quick by doing the wrong thing against snipers and mercs. You don't even notice when you do the wrong thing against a skank tank.

[Schoock]

You know who soft cc's me when I pop invincible? Only other skank tanks. Pretty much any other time it's just coincidence.

 

Everyone knows what to do when a merc pops energy shield, or reflect. But no one really thinks enough to study how to deal with immortal spec jugs. You know why?

 

Because they're not even close to being as overpowered as mercs. And snipers are better than merc.

 

You lose pretty quick by doing the wrong thing against snipers and mercs. You don't even notice when you do the wrong thing against a skank tank.

 

Wonder why that is? If you're on a merc and pop Energy Shield or reflect, it's a big glowing bubble around you literally only missing the "CC ME NOW" text in red. Now pop Invincible and check the animation... a small one for activation, and a very slight red overlay while it's active that's easily lost among the dozen you have active during a bigger fight.

 

I hope you noticed you just gave one more reason for why skank juggs are broken: unlike with mercs or even snipers, there's no real feedback, they just don't die.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Schoock

[Evolixe]

Wonder why that is? If you're on a merc and pop Energy Shield or reflect, it's a big glowing bubble around you literally only missing the "CC ME NOW" text in red. Now pop Invincible and check the animation... a small one for activation, and a very slight red overlay while it's active that's easily lost among the dozen you have active during a bigger fight.

 

I hope you noticed you just gave one more reason for why skank juggs are broken: unlike with mercs or even snipers, there's no real feedback, they just don't die.

 

I've raised attention to some people about a number of key abilities lacking sufficient animation clarity.

I hope they do something with it before the end of the year.

 

Anytime someone can't be CC'd for any reason other than resolve, animations should be crystal clear about it.

Not hidden away in a backpocket.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Evolixe