Chimerako Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 Are heals and mechnics in pvp in general out of control? I played 5 matches yesterday where at least 8 players had over 1 million heals, 3 to 4 with 250k to 800k in protection in the match. Thats a ton of dps turned Into fluff. Most of thoes matches maybe half or so of the 8 were actually healers. Between guard swapping, crosshealing and constant various types of cc floating around, pvp feels more like players vs mechanics as opposed to player vs player. People talk about skill gaps and it's pretty vast when I compare melee vs ranged. Not only am I rarely cc'ed as a ranged character but energy management is such that target swapping based on what defensive CD are up seems to easy when compared to being on my main which is a mara/sent. There used to be strategy even in regs but trying to determine which dps is guarding, which of the 3 healers is healing this guy or is that sorc off healing again. Avoiding the skanktank entirely, while trying desperately to get out of the aoe slow that the 3 eng snipers keep repositioning every two seconds. Maybe it just me but I'm feeling less and less like im beating a person and more like I'm beating biowares attempts at balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedimasterkiwi Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 Bioware: Patch 5.4 nerf sorc/sage heals XD, Patch 5.5 buff sorc/sage heals XD, Patch 5.6 nerf sorc/sage heals.... But you are correct it does seems that dps and tanking is becoming useless, from the dawn of time though it has been known that the Imp side is better at PVP just because they are more co-ordinated and have better team comps. Its not really a question of balance the class itself it more of question of having a balanced teams and tactics. Yes having large amounts of healers tips the balance but if both teams had the same amount of healers, dps and tanks it becomes a question of skill. I think a solution would be to have a similar group finder que, that you que as a role and a team should have even amounts of each role. I know that is how a success ranked team works and it should be implemented into unranked as well as it can be super one sided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaladan Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 too much healers, self heal and assist heal in PvP, clearly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ridge_guardian Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 (edited) Bioware has never made a attempt to actually balance the system they just kinda do random changes and ride it out, They don't actually have a pvp designer working for them or anyone to design a new gear system (why they still the ridiculous token grind). They really need to hire some new people to come in and spruce it up but they know the game is already on its last legs so its more likely it will stay dropping in population like it is until its been up 9-11 years and then it will shut down with a new star wars mmo launching a day or 2 later. Its exactly what they did with Star Wars Galaxies, it is exactly what they will do again. Look at powertech vs mercenary, PT has almost no dcd's, the only self heal they have only heals them up to 40% of their max health and won't heal them any farther then 40%, and if they spec into it their shoulder cannon can heal them for (very little) per shot which is pretty much useless sense it only gives you about 7k health every shot for 4-7shots and they can only shoot 1 at a time. Meanwhile mercs can do the same but to 70% health while having another instant heal abiltity, which if they use their other cd's right they can get 2 instant heals, plus a reflect sheild, plus the small energy shield the pt's have, they have the hydraulic overrides pt's have, PT's do have a grapple, however mercs have a jetboost that shoots them 20meters backwards to counter that so /kindastupid. Edited August 6, 2017 by ridge_guardian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omaan Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 Are heals and mechnics in pvp in general out of control? I played 5 matches yesterday where at least 8 players had over 1 million heals, 3 to 4 with 250k to 800k in protection in the match. Thats a ton of dps turned Into fluff. Most of thoes matches maybe half or so of the 8 were actually healers. Between guard swapping, crosshealing and constant various types of cc floating around, pvp feels more like players vs mechanics as opposed to player vs player. People talk about skill gaps and it's pretty vast when I compare melee vs ranged. Not only am I rarely cc'ed as a ranged character but energy management is such that target swapping based on what defensive CD are up seems to easy when compared to being on my main which is a mara/sent. There used to be strategy even in regs but trying to determine which dps is guarding, which of the 3 healers is healing this guy or is that sorc off healing again. Avoiding the skanktank entirely, while trying desperately to get out of the aoe slow that the 3 eng snipers keep repositioning every two seconds. Maybe it just me but I'm feeling less and less like im beating a person and more like I'm beating biowares attempts at balance. It's because tanks are ruining warzones. Have you ever seen any mmo where tanks could transfer 50% of dps??? In addition to this skank-tanks in swtor are doing pretty big dps. If nothing changes you will see tonns of tanks in warzones, switching guard to whoever receives damage. Such games are always booring, and team without a tank will loose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolixe Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 It's because tanks are ruining warzones. Have you ever seen any mmo where tanks could transfer 50% of dps??? In addition to this skank-tanks in swtor are doing pretty big dps. If nothing changes you will see tonns of tanks in warzones, switching guard to whoever receives damage. Such games are always booring, and team without a tank will loose. Don't spread this nonsense. Guard is a very interesting take on an otherwise largely ignored role in PvP. The "other" games you talk about offer no place for tanks in arena settings whatsoever. Bioware found a very nice solution to that. Now either or not 50% is the correct amount is a far more legitimate argument to have. Although you really should look at healing first before you change stuff there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedimasterkiwi Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 Don't spread this nonsense. Guard is a very interesting take on an otherwise largely ignored role in PvP. The "other" games you talk about offer no place for tanks in arena settings whatsoever. Bioware found a very nice solution to that. Now either or not 50% is the correct amount is a far more legitimate argument to have. Although you really should look at healing first before you change stuff there. I agree a tank is solely not THAT capable they need a healer to be truly effective. Sure they negate a lot of damage, but without heals they will lose to a dps heavy team with heals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec_Fortescue Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 Heals still need nerfing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimerako Posted August 6, 2017 Author Share Posted August 6, 2017 I'm a decent player and whats happening to me in solo and grouped is that mathematically based on my dps i know i should switch targets based on what defense is being applied yet there are so many heals and dcds everywhere you just end up dumping pointless dps into nothingness. I dont see how that's enjoyable. I know I shouldn't attack that guy until I separate him from the guy guarding him, I cc'ed the healer but I think that guy is healing him too. So I switch to the sorc who bubbles...i switch to the Merc who reflects so I mezz him and leap to the jugg who reflects, sigh I switch to the op...who runs away. The sniper....i literally took almost 4 minutes of one match killing a single sniper. Our skill lvls were about equal and he was being healed and guarded occasionally but it getting harder to apply pressure. Pvp is starting to feel like pve where your going through rotations and I'm winning because I'm better at cycling through cds than being better at reacting to the randomness of true pvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainot-keel Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 Heals still need nerfing. First, more matchmaking. If for whatever reason one team ends up with 3, 4 healers then we get these kind of threads. "Healing is out of control" and stuff like that. What kind of nerf for healing classed would be necessary in order to make 3, 4 healers weak enough so players still die easily ? That would be nuts. "Out of control" ? Improve matchmaking until you get it right, not just nerfing the role hoping for the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lundorff Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 First, more matchmaking. If for whatever reason one team ends up with 3, 4 healers then we get these kind of threads. "Healing is out of control" and stuff like that. What kind of nerf for healing classed would be necessary in order to make 3, 4 healers weak enough so players still die easily ? That would be nuts. "Out of control" ? Improve matchmaking until you get it right, not just nerfing the role hoping for the best. Yup. Limit healer / tank to 1 pair for either side regardless of skank-tank or not, and remove guard and possible taunts from dps classes. But that will never happen, as tryhard premades would have harder time getting pops and would cry, cry, cry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolixe Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 Taunts are one of the few things that are relatively small but can really separate good from great players. Like hell that it should be removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lundorff Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 Taunts are one of the few things that are relatively small but can really separate good from great players. Like hell that it should be removed. 30% less damage from both skills on a relative short CD is not what I call "relatively small" but... meh. I don't care. Nothing we discuss on this forum matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lundorff Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 (edited) I can not fathom that everybody doesn't find this incredible boooorrriiinggg. I am counting 3 tanks + 1 healer on our side, and 3 healers on their side. Snozzze fest. Edit: Edited August 6, 2017 by Lundorff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Bob- Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 I can not phantom that everybody doesn't find this incredible boooorrriiinggg. I am counting 3 tanks + 1 healer on our side, and 3 healers on their side. Snozzze fest. i think the word you're looking for is Fathom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimerako Posted August 6, 2017 Author Share Posted August 6, 2017 First, more matchmaking. If for whatever reason one team ends up with 3, 4 healers then we get these kind of threads. "Healing is out of control" and stuff like that. What kind of nerf for healing classed would be necessary in order to make 3, 4 healers weak enough so players still die easily ? That would be nuts. "Out of control" ? Improve matchmaking until you get it right, not just nerfing the role hoping for the best. No it's not this to me it's off heals that are the issues. If I'm on a op, sorc, Merc, anni Mara, sniper I really don't need a healer personally. Add in guard and things start getting out of control. I'm not some idiot posting in a reactionary way because I don't understand unbalanced teams. Typically in the classes mentioned above I rarely die in regs at all. Even on balanced teams uber off heals with guard seems a bit much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyuuu Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 (edited) Role over lapping need to be nerfed, Tank skills for Tank spec only Heal skills for Heal spec only DPS skills for DPS spec only DCD excluded from this cause DCD are mess right pure ammount DCD out there that HEAL is whole other messed they created Only after this happens can they reallly fix pvp balance, and they have no intrest in do any of that, They say they listen to feed back and all that history has prove they dont Edited August 6, 2017 by Kyuuu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellow_ Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 (edited) thank goodness bioware clearly does not listen to the incessant crying to have this game dumbed down even further by removing stuff like guard, taunts, and off healing from pvp that goes on in this board since things that are never going to happen are apparently on the table...if you're not looking to some soft matchmaking as the thing that could do more than anything else to improve the warzone experience then you're doing it wrong. even if class balance were good some significant percentage of warzones will continue to be utterly ruined by how many tanks/heals there are and how they're distributed between the teams Edited August 7, 2017 by yellow_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexsamma Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 thank goodness bioware clearly does not listen to the incessant crying to have this game dumbed down even further by removing stuff like guard, taunts, and off healing from pvp that goes on in this board since things that are never going to happen are apparently on the table...if you're not looking to some soft matchmaking as the thing that could do more than anything else to improve the warzone experience then you're doing it wrong. even if class balance were good some significant percentage of warzones will continue to be utterly ruined by how many tanks/heals there are and how they're distributed between the teams Quoting for sanity, just in case someone at BW is actually reading these forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexsamma Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 Role over lapping need to be nerfed, Tank skills for Tank spec only Heal skills for Heal spec only DPS skills for DPS spec only DCD excluded from this cause DCD are mess right pure ammount DCD out there that HEAL is whole other messed they created Only after this happens can they reallly fix pvp balance, and they have no intrest in do any of that, They say they listen to feed back and all that history has prove they dont Yes, let's make this game even more 1 dimensional... Off healing, taunting, peeling tools, etc... these are the things that make mmo pvp interesting, if you want one dimensional pvp why are you playing an MMO? Bring back stances Increase rotational complexity decrease derp damage from tanks (tanks should be able to do damage, but not as easily as they can currently) trim back on rotational roots/snares, then trim down the mobility buffs that every class has received; cc and anti-cc needs to tactical, not herp-a-derp I pressed a dps button and slowed you by 70% then you press one of your 10 zillion mobility buffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funnypat Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 What really bugs me is the freaking groupfinder, i wonder why nobody mentioned that yet - because i guess that would be a relatively small fix. How often does it happen that one team has 3 healer + 1 dps and the other team 3 tanks + 1 dps or other fancy combinations - and i could understand if that would only happen when imps are against pubs. Because you could argue that there are no other possible players in queue... but if this is happening (and it is - a lot) in rep vs rep / imp vs imp matches then i certainly want to know... How can this be? Is there some kind of a slotmachine where the gf decides between "good setup", "not so good setup", "damn i only have one heal - ok then at least let the other team have a tank" and "Ok... **** it..."? Like seriously how can this be happening? Isn't there a priority stuff working? (I have no idea about programming or anything computer based - but this is just freaking weird stuff) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellow_ Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 (edited) What really bugs me is the freaking groupfinder, i wonder why nobody mentioned that yet - because i guess that would be a relatively small fix. There is zero --z e r o-- matchmaking in regular PVP. It just takes the groups in queue and smashes them into games and off you go. There is no change bioware could make to PVP that would improve the overall reg pvp experience as much as some light matchmaking like splitting healers between each team one at a time with a limit of 2 per team (one in arenas). Edited August 7, 2017 by yellow_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lundorff Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 thank goodness bioware clearly does not listen to the incessant crying to have this game dumbed down even further by removing stuff like guard, taunts, and off healing from pvp that goes on in this board Yes because games such as CS:GO has no depth despite a relatively simple point and shoot mechanic Removing or diminishing guard, taunts, and off healing would only make this game more enjoyable. It would ensure that people actually play their chosen roles closer to what was intended, and people would simply die more which is sorely needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexsamma Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 (edited) Yes because games such as CS:GO has no depth despite a relatively simple point and shoot mechanic Removing or diminishing guard, taunts, and off healing would only make this game more enjoyable. It would ensure that people actually play their chosen roles closer to what was intended, and people would simply die more which is sorely needed. Comparing one of the least arcade-like and most competitive FPS games on the market to an MMO... oh my.... Edited August 7, 2017 by alexsamma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lundorff Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 Comparing one of the least arcade-like and most competitive FPS games on the market to an MMO... oh my.... I am saying that simple mechanics can still create complex gameplay i.e. easy to understand yet hard to master. Removing or diminishing the amount of guard, taunts and heals would make it more enjoyable for everyone: healers and tanks would be more unique (especially if combined with light match making) and dps could focus on their primary role without dragging things to a stalemate. This way it would also be much easier to create light match making, as you don't risk having DPS with taunts and guard on one side but not the other. But whatever. The only reason for this forum is to bicker amongst ourselves and debate issues of which we have zero influence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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