Slicing post-nerf, please look at the numbers BW

[Pansophist]

Edited, it was too harsh. Carry on folks. But please remember that your prices scale astronomically as you level, and slicing does not anymore. (Skill training from 35-50, repairs at 50 costing close to 50k with not even close to best in slot gear, etc..I dislike including mounts due to the fact I consider them a luxury after the first mount).

 

Also, please remember the real issue at hand is the lack of communication from BioWare about all of the bugs/glitches/fixes (Kira? PvP? Slicing? The list goes on).

 

Another edit: Yes, I believe it needed to be nerfed. No, not to a 71% (high yields) to 90% (avg yields) nerf. I was thinking more of a 40-50% nerf as well as implementing level caps.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Pansophist

[Cyrosage]

Seems like a lot of overreaction and too little analysis.

 

Slicing is still profitable, based on my tests. After 353 missions, here's how it breaks down:

 

• Rank 1: 6 missions for an average loss of 99 credits per mission. This is the only rank that loses money. Get over it.
  
• Rank 2: 41 missions for an average profit of 5 credits per mission. Not stellar? It's rank 2. Get over it.
  
• Rank 3: 61 missions for an average profit of 109 credits per mission. Getting better...
  
• Rank 4: 88 missions for an average profit of 288 credits per mission.
  
• Rank 5: 101 missions for an average profit of 335 credits per mission.
  
• Rank 6: 56 missions for an average profit of 216 credits per mission.
  

Notice how Rank 1 starts you off with an average loss of about 100 credits per mission and then your average profit per mission increases by something around 100 credits per rank after that?

 

The "sweet spot" seems to be Rank 5 Rich and Bountiful missions. Once you max out and run only those, you might average over 500 credits profit per mission.

 

Slicing is profitable. You just have to know how to do it and get through the lower levels.

 

If you do the math on the above, you'll see that I've made just over 71,000 credits of profit on slicing missions (ONLY missions; I'm not tracking nodes I find while adventuring) since the "nerf".

 

 

"Get over it" is not productive to the conversation. 335 credits per mission average, for 30+minutes per mission. A single dropped item is worth that, and doesn't take 30 minutes to get. You can sell darn near any gathered item for 300 credits by undercutting everyone. Why do the we keep getting a few random people talking about "you just have to know how to do it" Press N to open companion window. Click splicing. Click mission. Click send. There is no magic system you are using that the nearly 2000 posts here haven't figured out. Simply, there is really no reason I should not be able to make decent profit off my max level missions. I should not have to settle for some mid-range mission some random guy said was statistically better. That's now how the general idea of skill ranks works. Higher skills shouldn't do less damage, less healing, or have average less return. Period. I agree with nearly everyone with the fact that splicing was OP. Nerf deserved. Implemented incorrectly. Best idea was level cap for the skill ranges. But, % cut is acceptable, but 30 minutes per level 6 mission should yield more than 216 credits. That's common sense. You may have made 71000 credits (woo hoo), but with that total, you averaged 201 credits per mission. Most of which took at least 10 minutes, but probably closer to 30 minutes. Profitable? Slightly if you look at the big picture, not the big number.

 

While we all appreciate your input, asserting that everyone else is not using the secret system of running level 5 quests instead of 6 because we did not impose analytics on our video game is a little out there. My analysis? After patch, ran many level 6 quests, noticed I was broke. Ouch.

[DarthTHC]

Edited, it was too harsh. Carry on folks. But please remember that your prices scale astronomically as you level, and slicing does not anymore.

 

Also, please remember the real issue at hand is the lack of communication from BioWare about all of the bugs/glitches/fixes (Kira? PvP? Slicing? The list goes on).

 

I am under level 50. I never intended to race there. What I said about telemetry still holds true. BioWare will analyze those numbers and do what they see fit.

 

As to communication, they pick and choose their spots but do seem to communicate less frequently and specifically than the community would like. However, they have communicated on the BH bug. It may not be the communication Bounty Hunters want (an exact date of a fix) but it is communication nonetheless.

[Pansophist]

I am under level 50. I never intended to race there. What I said about telemetry still holds true. BioWare will analyze those numbers and do what they see fit.

 

As to communication, they pick and choose their spots but do seem to communicate less frequently and specifically than the community would like. However, they have communicated on the BH bug. It may not be the communication Bounty Hunters want (an exact date of a fix) but it is communication nonetheless.

 

Warning: Assumptions below.

BioWare did not analyze the numbers pre-nerf. They responded to what many consider a public relations mess. The PR mess caused by a lot of people who do not understand that 400k credits is NOT a lot of money, and instead focused on others bragging about having '200k credits' while they were broke.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Pansophist

[MnMrMustard]

Still waiting for feedback on this. BW made a drastic change that toppled the markets, and still has them at a complete stand still.

[Dorkfrey]

Slice a node. I'm not a troll. I've been slicing nodes all day. They're not all gone. Oh, by the way, the server I play on is consistently FULL starting well before "prime time".

 

Advantages to slicing other than mission profit:

 

• You frequently get missions you can sell or run yourself. These are extra money.
  
• You can slice nodes "in the field" for even more profit.
  
• It's profitable without having to manage as many GTN sales as other mission skills.
  

 

BioWare has built comprehensive metrics reporting into the game. Georg Zoeller calls it "telemetry". They can look at how much profit the slicing missions are giving out and break it down to a great degree of detail.

 

They are constantly monitoring all aspects of the game, not just slicing. But since we're talking about slicing, they're monitoring that, too. They use these metrics, and not so much player feedback (especially for slicing) to decide what to do.

 

BioWare didn't adjust slicing because people with other skills complained.

 

They adjusted slicing because the telemetry data they saw was not what they expected to see and not what they desired. They will continue to do this until the data shows what they want it to show.

 

EDIT: Oh, and what's with the credits per minute measurement? This only matters if you're out adventuring but you have 100% of your companions out slicing. Only then do you feel any sort of "loss" for running slicing missions. Credits per minute is an irrelevant measurement. However, if that's how you want to play - maximize your profit per minute - I'm sure you're intelligent and resourceful enough to figure out the crafting skill or skills that will enable you to do that. It's probably not slicing because slicing is "easy money" so the developers aren't going to make it "big money" too.

 

Yeah those (slicing) level 50 slicing nodes in Naa Shaddaa are just a bucket of win aren't they. I feel sorry for every single Slicer I see hit one of them, because they're too stubborn just to move to UT to "roll with the times", although, I suspect, now seeing Bioware in action "Rolling with the Times" will become a weekly event.

 

I mean, damn - a node that's almost two tiers below the area, giving what, 93 credits on average or something? That's pro.

 

Keep saying it to yourself though. Because you know, sooner or later, "You'll be next."

[DarthTHC]

Warning: Assumptions below.

BioWare did not analyze the numbers pre-nerf. They responded to what many consider a public relations mess. The PR mess caused by a lot of people who do not understand that 400k credits is NOT a lot of money, and instead focused on others bragging about having '200k credits' while they were broke.

 

They don't do that. They have never done that. I doubt they will ever do that.

 

They look at their numbers, and they have a lot of numbers to look at.

 

 

Edited, it was too harsh. Carry on folks. But please remember that your prices scale astronomically as you level, and slicing does not anymore. (Skill training from 35-50, repairs at 50 costing close to 50k with not even close to best in slot gear, etc..I dislike including mounts due to the fact I consider them a luxury after the first mount).

 

Also, please remember the real issue at hand is the lack of communication from BioWare about all of the bugs/glitches/fixes (Kira? PvP? Slicing? The list goes on).

 

Another edit: Yes, I believe it needed to be nerfed. No, not to a 71% (high yields) to 90% (avg yields) nerf. I was thinking more of a 40-50% nerf as well as implementing level caps.

 

Aha, repair costs. Now that's a different animal entirely.

 

The problem you are describing is not a problem with Slicing. The problem is that the game is too aggressive about trying to take money out of the economy. Put otherwise, costs are too high.

[myrken]

Slice a node. I'm not a troll. I've been slicing nodes all day. They're not all gone. Oh, by the way, the server I play on is consistently FULL starting well before "prime time".

 

Advantages to slicing other than mission profit:

 

• You frequently get missions you can sell or run yourself. These are extra money.
  
• You can slice nodes "in the field" for even more profit.
  
• It's profitable without having to manage as many GTN sales as other mission skills.
  

 

BioWare has built comprehensive metrics reporting into the game. Georg Zoeller calls it "telemetry". They can look at how much profit the slicing missions are giving out and break it down to a great degree of detail.

 

They are constantly monitoring all aspects of the game, not just slicing. But since we're talking about slicing, they're monitoring that, too. They use these metrics, and not so much player feedback (especially for slicing) to decide what to do.

 

BioWare didn't adjust slicing because people with other skills complained.

 

They adjusted slicing because the telemetry data they saw was not what they expected to see and not what they desired. They will continue to do this until the data shows what they want it to show.

 

EDIT: Oh, and what's with the credits per minute measurement? This only matters if you're out adventuring but you have 100% of your companions out slicing. Only then do you feel any sort of "loss" for running slicing missions. Credits per minute is an irrelevant measurement. However, if that's how you want to play - maximize your profit per minute - I'm sure you're intelligent and resourceful enough to figure out the crafting skill or skills that will enable you to do that. It's probably not slicing because slicing is "easy money" so the developers aren't going to make it "big money" too.

 

Even if they were watching the #'s and say they were and based their nerf on that its still to harsh a nerf but that aside, the market has yet to settle into a stable base line so numbers or not the numbers as to how the economy will be when stable are still up in the air therefore a nerf before a stabilized economy could be established is an obvious gamble not an educated decision.

[Zakkana]

One thing we have been forgetting is that these past two weeks have been holiday weeks so BW might have less staff than normal right now. So this absence of communication might be because of that more than BW not caring/etc.

[myrken]

One thing we have been forgetting is that these past two weeks have been holiday weeks so BW might have less staff than normal right now. So this absence of communication might be because of that more than BW not caring/etc.

 

I hope Bioware gets me some fuzzy socks for a late christmahanakwanzika present!

 

"oh and my trooper wants a fuzzy hat for when fighting on Hoth"

like a Russian snow cap minus the bear

Edited December 31, 2011 by myrken

[TheDarkerPhantom]

Seems like a lot of overreaction and too little analysis.

 

Slicing is still profitable, based on my tests. After 353 missions, here's how it breaks down:

 

• Rank 1: 6 missions for an average loss of 99 credits per mission. This is the only rank that loses money. Get over it.
  
• Rank 2: 41 missions for an average profit of 5 credits per mission. Not stellar? It's rank 2. Get over it.
  
• Rank 3: 61 missions for an average profit of 109 credits per mission. Getting better...
  
• Rank 4: 88 missions for an average profit of 288 credits per mission.
  
• Rank 5: 101 missions for an average profit of 335 credits per mission.
  
• Rank 6: 56 missions for an average profit of 216 credits per mission.
  

Notice how Rank 1 starts you off with an average loss of about 100 credits per mission and then your average profit per mission increases by something around 100 credits per rank after that?

 

The "sweet spot" seems to be Rank 5 Rich and Bountiful missions. Once you max out and run only those, you might average over 500 credits profit per mission.

 

Slicing is profitable. You just have to know how to do it and get through the lower levels.

 

If you do the math on the above, you'll see that I've made just over 71,000 credits of profit on slicing missions (ONLY missions; I'm not tracking nodes I find while adventuring) since the "nerf".

 

 

11,200 won't buy you anything ( 56 * 200 ).

 

Heck 71,000 won't buy you anything.

[Nahela]

And rank 6 is making less than previous ranks, still.

 

Regardless, maxed out at level 50 that credit income is pitiful for the time invested compared to the benefits you could gain from another profession.

 

More important though, the income does NOT cover the loss per-mission from not having your crafting skill's mission profession. 200-300 credits per mission isn't going to buy you the materials you'd be getting. And THAT is where the whole issue comes into play. Slicing has to be profitable enough to effectively cover any cost associated with not having a mission profession in addition to giving some benefit to the player. It did this at release, only slightly tell well, it does not remotely do this now.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Nahela

[KTheAlchemist]

Seems like a lot of overreaction and too little analysis.

 

Slicing is still profitable, based on my tests. After 353 missions, here's how it breaks down:

 

• Rank 1: 6 missions for an average loss of 99 credits per mission. This is the only rank that loses money. Get over it.
  
• Rank 2: 41 missions for an average profit of 5 credits per mission. Not stellar? It's rank 2. Get over it.
  
• Rank 3: 61 missions for an average profit of 109 credits per mission. Getting better...
  
• Rank 4: 88 missions for an average profit of 288 credits per mission.
  
• Rank 5: 101 missions for an average profit of 335 credits per mission.
  
• Rank 6: 56 missions for an average profit of 216 credits per mission.
  

Notice how Rank 1 starts you off with an average loss of about 100 credits per mission and then your average profit per mission increases by something around 100 credits per rank after that?

 

The "sweet spot" seems to be Rank 5 Rich and Bountiful missions. Once you max out and run only those, you might average over 500 credits profit per mission.

 

Slicing is profitable. You just have to know how to do it and get through the lower levels.

 

If you do the math on the above, you'll see that I've made just over 71,000 credits of profit on slicing missions (ONLY missions; I'm not tracking nodes I find while adventuring) since the "nerf".

 

Now compare that against how much money you're earning from other things at each respective level. And by respective level I mean with your character *actually* being at the level of the missions (which, if it had been required, might have saved us this entire mess by putting those incomes into perspective pre-nerf). Also, compare it against the relative calculated income from ANY other gathering skill skill, again on a level-to-level basis.

 

The figures you're quoting sound big to low level players, but are not in reality. Not understanding this is what got us in this mess in the first place.

 

Furthermore they are outstripped severely by every other gathering skill in the game. This is not "in line", this is overnerfed and vastly inferior.

[Reaperchris]

You make the same amount I've been making on my Treasure Hunting.... Welcome to the world of not being OP.

[nonamesleft]

I thought slicings function was to act as a counterbalance for the money sinks in the game (auction house postings, companion missions, repair costs, leaning skills and crafting recipes, speeders, companion gifts, customizable gear and other useful vendor items). It was clear it was too effective at that, particularly if you just make a bunch of low level characters with one or two companions and keep sending them on missions, but the solution to this problem may cause more damage.

 

I think the decision to make slicing missions essentially useless is a very bad idea. The opportunity cost of send companions on slicing lockbox missions greatly outweighs the ~10 credits per minute per companion you stand to gain in missions at max level.

 

I can only assume the prices of all the money sinks were build with the understanding that there would be numerous slicers on the server constantly sending their companions on missions to combat those sinks, now that that functionally is removed it could cause an extreme and serious deflation that could be even more harmful to the economy than the inflation slicing posed.

 

It is like a country suddenly realized it was printing too much money and decided to permanently abolish their mint rather than simply adjust it to a reasonable rate.

Edited December 31, 2011 by nonamesleft

[TheDarkerPhantom]

You make the same amount I've been making on my Treasure Hunting.... Welcome to the world of not being OP.

 

I can make 2,000 from a single 500 UT mission, and I made 500 credits from the same Slicing mission before the reduction mission rewards.

 

Getting 300 credits at level 23 from what basically amounts to a Rank 2 lockbox is HORRIBLE.

 

Even if it was 1,000 its still horrible.

[phfct]

Some of you guys are really stupid and have no understanding how this works.

 

Wenn i use slicing i have to buy MATS of the TGN to craft blue/Epic gear . With slicing nerfed to the ground. A whole lot of people who bought mats before will stop doing so.

People without slicing will make less money again. Its a vicious circle we all spiralled into Because of some brainless monkeys screaming for nerfs!!

Edited December 31, 2011 by phfct

[FrancoisTogruta]

I must admit that I am very VERY tired, of trying to find a substitute for a good money maker. I'm not talking something that gives 20k/hour, but at least something that keeps me alive.

 

I've tried 6 skills (thats a lot of skill levelling), and so far most of what I've read an tried were lies. Someone saying you do X mission and you can NPC vendor it for 200/ea ? No way; 20 ea is more like it. Unless you meant the Trade network, but prices are plummetting while skills/repairs and just about everything else stays still.

 

I'm tired of trying... I like to stay put at a level, making money, and gear myself properly (which includes companionS in this game as well mind you). I also like expending inventory t be comfortable, and then move on. So far the only way I've found to make money is to level the main quest and it's sub quest, which mean an extremly narrow tunnel of no-opportunity beside following the rails.

 

I really don't want to cancel; this game is gorgeous, has amazing Voice acting, good scenarios (even the JK story some ppl warned me about is great, I want more). Flashpoints are interactive and fun... But then you get knocked uncounscious from the lack of credits.

 

I really, REALLY don't care how they fix it. I really dont care if BW wants to reply to this thread or not and I dont even care if it's thru re-buffed slicing, better nodes all around (whatever skills it might be), better price on crap loot, but IT HAS TO BE FIXED. I'm on the verge of giving up and going back to wherever MMO I came from, at least there you can take whatever time (reasonable at that) and get money-comfortable. Tired of trying anything and everything to stay afloat, and i'm not even level 25 yet... God forbids the speeder and training costs.

 

I tought it was just me not being good at it, but when the 5 ppl I've converted to SWTOR start asking me how to make money because they can't get ahead on their "bills" then I know i'm not alone in this hole.

 

Maybe if you coudn't purchase low-level ressources from NPCs selling at 10cr each.... MAYBE it would help. Oh well. Going back to work from vacantion Tuesday. If nothing happens by then, and with my play time shrinking to 1/15th of what it has been in the last week... No more time to fool around trying skills! Sad prospect.

 

If you read all of this, kudos to you my friends.

Merry Hollidays and happy new year !

-- Francois424

Edited December 31, 2011 by FrancoisTogruta

[Ignimortis]

You make the same amount I've been making on my Treasure Hunting.... Welcome to the world of not being OP.

 

+1 here. From what I've heard, Slicing was quite OP back in the day, making ridiculous profits quickly. You say that it's to offset the lack of crafting, but I am at 200 with my Artifice skill, level 30, and I still haven't used a single product of mine - I've got most of my gear top-notched with mods from commends anyway. Abilities tend to cost too much (like, tenfold from before) after 22-25th level, so I'm basically spending all my profits from questing to upgrade tham, and haven't ever breached 100k of credits plank, yet my friend's char had slicing and around 150-200k in the latest part of beta, being level 22 or something. Get over it, being nerfed to everyone's level isn't bad, it's about balance.

[The_Assuran]

My personal position was that BioWare made a mistake allowing lockbox farming missions to begin with; a better tactic would allow the "wild" lockboxes, but substitute some other reward for the lockboxes (or simply make augments something worthwhile, as oppossed to the vendor trash they are right now) for the mission rewards.

 

Having said that, of course I took my free money leveling up. I have a comfortable nest egg (but not the millions of credits others have who aggressively sliced). But truth be told, as 50 simply doing your Illum + PVP daily quests should reward you with over 100k credits a day. Add in grey items and you're probably pushing 125-150k a day. Granted, learning some hardmodes might cost you 25k credit repair bills, but you should be ok unless you're really failing hard (or learning hardmodes/nighmare modes, but that is to be expected).

 

I still have 400 slicing to see if BW does something with it later, but sending out your companions on slicing missions instead of scav. missions would actually lose me credits in the long run.

[Satene]

I'm on the verge of giving up and going back to wherever MMO I came from, at least there you can take whatever time (reasonable at that) and get money-comfortable.

 

At least you HAVE an MMO to go back too. I came from SWG.

[KTheAlchemist]

Honestly I think a lot of the problem here may not be the state of Slicing, but the state of expenses.

 

While some of the arguers here seem to think that slicers opted into slicing so they could get a giant pile of credits, dump them into their ship's cargo bay, and play Scrooge McDuck with them, people were actually taking it for the simple reason that with the current state of the economy, casual players needed it just to get by. Repair costs, training costs, that brutal (at the time) 40k hit at level 25, the costs of running the other crew skill missions, the cost of trying to keep your companion's gear up or watch them become a liability instead of an asset...right now the "cost of living" is just too high for those who aren't as good at gaming the economy. Slicing was filling out that need, as well as pumping creds into people trying to go the more traditional route...maybe this wasn't the best way to handle that need, but I'd say this nerf should have rolled out with a concurrent nerf to training, repairs, etc.

 

If the costs of living weren't out of control, we'd see far fewer people feeling like they "needed" pre-nerf Slicing, and would have instead opted for the crew skills that better suited their crafting choices.

 

Introducing grind just seems antithetical to everything else this game has managed to achieve.

Edited December 31, 2011 by KTheAlchemist

[Cowboyhomer]

Some of you guys are really stupid and have no understanding how this works.

 

Wenn i use slicing i have to buy MATS of the TGN to craft blue/Epic gear . With slicing nerfed to the ground. A whole lot of people who bought mats before will stop doing so.

People without slicing will make less money again. Its a vicious circle we all spiralled into Because of some brainless monkeys screaming for nerfs!!

 

I think your really stupid if you think BW changed it because someone complained on a forum...lol and they havent even replied to the "OH NOES I cant make money" posts? Bowing down to a group on a forum is like negotiationg with terrorists. If you do it once you lose and better be prepared for everyone who doesnt like something to follow that path.

[KTheAlchemist]

I think your really stupid if you think BW changed it because someone complained on a forum...lol and they havent even replied to the "OH NOES I cant make money" posts? Bowing down to a group on a forum is like negotiationg with terrorists. If you do it once you lose and better be prepared for everyone who doesnt like something to follow that path.

 

If they didn't do it in response to forum complaints, why did it go live in that state?

[Zilliztra]

Go use slicing to farm and you are fine. Seriously complaining that a gathering skill does not give you free cash? .. grow up