Keith, why can't Bio follow Square Enix's example

[Icykill_]

Hi Keith, (please mods, don't move this. At least until Keith sees the whole thread)

 

What's stopping Bioware and EA from following Square Enix's example of how they fixed FFXIV. They saw how important and iconic their IP is and took steps to rebuild it.

 

Star Wars is without doubt one of the biggest and iconic IPs in Pop Culture. I think if Bioware and EA were willing to spend the money like Square Enix did and the sort of money EA has put towards Battlefront 2 and then reboot swtor, it would be highly successful as long as they applied all the lessons learnt from here.

 

Here is an excerpt from an article I came across this morning about FFX and it made me think this is exactly what swtor needs.

 

Learning from previous mistakes, Square Enix has propelled Final Fantasy XIV into one of the most compelling MMORPGs on the market. Here's how

 

Final Fantasy XIV released by Square Enix in September 2010, was a complete mess. The game had abysmal reviews, a rocky release, and so many bugs that it was nearly unplayable. Square Enix extended the free trial period twice, and then apologized to players in December 2010, stating that the development team would completely overhaul the entire game. However, the developers quickly realized that the outdated engine couldn’t achieve what they promised, so they began developing a brand new version of the game, alongside new content and patches for the original version.

 

Square Enix eventually shut down the original game’s servers after two years, and in August of 2013, they released Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn. Because of the developer's dedication to crafting a quality title and the previous attempt's savage reception, many players have remained loyal to*A Realm Rebornthroughout its life cycle.*

 

During development of A Realm Reborn, project director and producer Naoki Yoshida held weekly livestreamed conversations with game developers and answered fan's questions. Though this may not have directly attributed to A Realm Reborn’s continued success, it shifted the culture of the development team from one concentrated on the best graphics to one concentrated on serving the player-base. Constant communication from the game's director*also established huge amounts of trust and faith across the community.

 

But the change Bioware needs to make isn't graphics..

...it shifted the culture of the development team from one concentrated on the "best graphics" to one concentrated on serving the player-base

This would be the change Bioware needs to make...

... it shifted the culture of the development team from one concentrated on "what the developers wanted" to one concentrated on serving the player-base

 

Anyway Keith, just some food for thought. Maybe you could put this on your "Wall of (not so) Crazy" ideas

 

Edit : Fushnchups posted a links to a documentary to this further on. It is a real eye opener and I encourage everyone to watch because my post above doesn't do just what those Square Enix guys did.

 

Edit: I've added the links to the three parts of the documentary below

 

 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Icykill_

[Quraswren]

I think many would love to see swtor on a better engine and a reboot of the game but I also don't think ea or bw is capable of pulling off what Square Enix did with FF14.

 

This game is not funded well enough nor is it staffed well enough to pull off such a feat.

 

So we are left dealing with the mediocrity we have to satisfy our Star Wars needs.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Quraswren

[fushnchips]

Icy have you watched the 3 part Docu on it ?

[Icykill_]

Icy have you watched the 3 part Docu on it ?

 

No, I'd didn't know there was one.

[Icykill_]

I think many would love to see swtor on a better engine and a reboot of the game but I also don't think ea or bw is capable of pulling off what Square Enix did with FF14.

 

This game is not funded well enough nor is it staffed well enough to pull off such a feat.

 

So we are left dealing with the mediocrity we have to satisfy our Star Wars needs.

 

They would definitely need to invest the sort of money they are doing for Battlefront at the moment to bring in more staff and talent. They just need the will to do it.

[Soljin]

I think many would love to see swtor on a better engine and a reboot of the game but I also don't think ea or bw is capable of pulling off what Square Enix did with FF14.

 

This game is not funded well enough nor is it staffed well enough to pull off such a feat.

 

So we are left dealing with the mediocrity we have to satisfy our Star Wars needs.

 

Pretty much this...They just don't have the resources to make the kind of changes the game needs. With this schedule they are running in a losing race.

 

If SWToR were ported to a new engine and given more resources to add depth to the game and maybe some hybrid sandbox elements...I would be all over that.

 

As it is this game is too simplistic... limited resources continue to simplify and limit the game rather than add complexity which is the opposite direction needed IMO.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Soljin

[Icykill_]

Pretty much this...They just don't have the resources to make the kind of changes the game needs. With the schedule they are running now they are just in a losing race.

 

If SWToR were ported to a new engine and given more resources to add depth to the game and maybe some hybrid sandbox elements...I would be all over that.

 

As it is this game is too simplistic and limited... limited resources continue to simplify and limit the game rather than add complexity which is the opposite direction needed IMO.

 

It definitely needs an injection of capital and funding. It's something they could do if they made people pay for expansions and not just make them part of a $15 sub. This actual revenue model is unsustainable to get any quality content.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Icykill_

[fushnchips]

No, I'd didn't know there was one.

 

 

This is a full thing about the game and how bad it was and then what they done it's amazing to see how they done it.

[Icykill_]

 

This is a full thing about the game and how bad it was and then what they done it's amazing to see how they done it.

 

Maybe Keith should watch it too 😉

 

I like how they saved the game and it's now the second largest subscriber MMO.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Icykill_

[JLazarillo]

But the change Bioware needs to make isn't graphics..

...it shifted the culture of the development team from one concentrated on the "best graphics" to one concentrated on serving the player-base

This would be the change Bioware needs to make...

... it shifted the culture of the development team from one concentrated on "what the developers wanted" to one concentrated on serving the player-base

The question is, though, "which player base?"

I'm sure you are part of a player base that feels you are not being served. However, is serving you really in line with what the majority of other players also want?

 

How do you know that they aren't focusing on service to the player base?

[DoctorBeckett]

I've been saying they should re-design SWTOR for years. Obviously there's funding and staffing problems, but it COULD be done. Start with Frostbite or the newest engine that supports DX12. Re-do the artwork/animations. Keep the VO work as is. Do it on a Dev shard and a closed test server while keeping the current game going. Then re-do the modules. Take from other games as examples (PvP, Ops, Flashpoints, currency, air combat, etc...) It *IS* doable. I know it'll take a very long time... I know SWTOR took 10 years to develop. I don't buy the "EA's business plan doesn't care about it's playerbase" excuse. Bioware ran SWTOR past the higherups at EA once. EA has gone through alot of stuff in the last 10 years itself... Obviously SWTOR is making money that's profitable to EA or they would have shut it down ages ago.

 

Just food for thought.

[fushnchips]

Maybe Keith should watch it too 😉

 

I like how they saved the game and it's now the second largest subscriber MMO.

 

Yeah and it has updates every 3 months with lots of content that Doco was amazing and the respect I give them now after watching all 3 parts everyone would be in the same boat and that's why they take the #2 spot.

[Icykill_]

Yeah and it has updates every 3 months with lots of content that Doco was amazing and the respect I give them now after watching all 3 parts everyone would be in the same boat and that's why they take the #2 spot.

 

Im half way through part two and there is a very important part I wish Keith and his bosses would watch.

It's about 9-10mins into part two where they talk about player loyalty and transparency.

 

 

Keith, if you are watching this thread it would be really good if you could at least watch part two of this documentary and skip through to about 9 mins into it as I think what they are talking about is important and it's something you are trying to do with us, but you need to go further like they did to make it work.

[jpscjpsc]

Why would EA and Bioware take a risk on rebooting SWTOR? Their first attempt would have netted them a loss, if not in real terms then definitely in opportunity costs. It definitely dented their share price at the time. At this point they're keeping it on life-support in order to eek out any margin that is left. Then they'll bury it and probably never talk of it again.

 

I know we think 'yeah just reboot it!', but it represents significant risk to a company which tends not to take risk. Hence 'FIFA 17', 'Battlefield 1', 'Battlefront 2' etc - they're low risk and high profit titles. Building a new MMO requires significant investment in infrastructure, developers, analysts, marketing, designers etc. It's a massive lift, especially for something Star Wars related which will have to be big from day 1 to accommodate the initial demand.

 

I find people on here to be naive to the ways of both business and game development. Seriously it's not as easy or simple as people want to assume.

[Icykill_]

Just watching the end of part two and how the world ended and how all the players came together to protect the city from the monsters the dev team kept spamming at them was awesome. How they did that game animation right at the end before the servers were turned off to showing the world end and the players dissolving was a bit emotional and I've never even played the game 😭. The producers, Devs and players were so passionate at the end with their world ending.

 

Into part three now and the guy being interviewed makes an extremely important point, saying "you can't just say it's a success and just make any content and say hahaha they'll buy it anyway" (paraphrased that... you can see it 10mins inif you want to see it).

OMG, this Producer just gets it so much. 13 mins in the lead producer says something that highlights just how fundamentally misguided Biowares approach is to making people feel like they have to login constantly to get ahead. "I never wanted to make it so people have to login continuously to play the game"... "I wanted to avoid forcing people to play because everyone is so busy".. "even big MMO fans like me can't do it"...

[ZionHalcyon]

I think many would love to see swtor on a better engine and a reboot of the game but I also don't think ea or bw is capable of pulling off what Square Enix did with FF14.

 

This game is not funded well enough nor is it staffed well enough to pull off such a feat.

 

So we are left dealing with the mediocrity we have to satisfy our Star Wars needs.

 

The major issue here is Square Enix owns...Square Enix. They have a ton of cash from the FInal Fantasy franchise, and its what they do. Rebooting and refocusing the MMO to meet not only their high standards but the players' is doable for them.

 

BioWare, on the other hands, is owned by EA, gets their money from EA, and EA decides how much they get and when to turn off the money spigot. Even if BioWare wanted to, EA could just say "No, that isn't in the best interests of our investors" and there would be nothing BioWare could do. Never forget that EA is the real reason this game never could get back on track.

[Icykill_]

When I started this thread it was because I read the article about how Square Enix turned their game around by relaunching. That was the only point I'd originally meant to make.

I knew when I made the post that there was little chance it would happen or that Keith might really understand what it would mean to me (us) as players.

 

I really want to thank Fushnchips for posting those links to the documentary.

 

It shows what is possible and reminds me of how passionate I've been about this game since it launched (I've lost that passion slowly as this years progressed).

To see just how passionate those developers and producers were and are to get their game right was/is amazing. Their attitude towards knowing they can't rest on their lorals and are still continually striving to make their game even better than it was before is fantastic. They really understand their player base and their wants and needs.

 

Its opened my eyes to the turmoil that dev teams can go through in the face of failure, but also shows how they can rise above it and not give up. I'm sure some of the guys at Bioware are going through this now turmoil now and feel like that too, Keith is probably one of them.

 

I know I've been hard in my criticism in lots of threads, especially this year, but it's because of my passion for the game and utter frustration that nothing seems to change even with the best intentions. I now feel a little ashamed at the way I've delivered some of that criticism. (sorry Keith and team ). Not for the criticism itself because I feel the feed back is needed.

 

Keith, if you were to come out and be absolutely honest and say we know we stuffed up with 5.0, we really are trying to fix it, I think that would go a long way to restoring some faith. You can't move past mistakes without acknowledging they were mistakes. By sharing that with us it would show Bioware is actually aware of it and it might change some of the bad feeling we have.

 

I really do hope Keith see's this thread and spends the time to watch that documentary as I think it might even inspire him a little as well as showing another way of doing things to inspire player loyalty.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Icykill_

[Eshvara]

Because they care about their game and didn't want to see it fail. I remember how the producer cried when his game was finally a success and how happy he was with the praise. It was quite touching to see.

 

It isn't like EA can't afford it, they just don't have the right mindset and after mistake after mistake with swtor, they don't have what it takes to do this. The simple thing to do is to do as they are and try to take in as much money as they can, while spending a whole lot less. With how things were run in the last year's, it's kind of easy to see! Barely anything was put in the game in terms of content while money kept coming in.

 

I'd love for EA/BW to do a 180 and do this too, but they never will. That and FFXIV was a total disaster while SW was just a disaster.

[Tsillah]

It definitely needs an injection of capital and funding. It's something they could do if they made people pay for expansions and not just make them part of a $15 sub. This actual revenue model is unsustainable to get any quality content.

 

I think the problem lies there and I suspect that this makes it more of an EA thing than a BW thing.

 

With Final Fantasy the game just wasn't good enough on launch reportedly. It's their own IP I guess and that might be part of it and the FF IP has a lot of games in it, so it's something they are invested in. When we see how BW is treating their own ME IP, I guess I can only conclude that they don't have the same type of pride in their own products. At least not anymore.

 

It seems to me that EA sees SWTOR as something that makes a bit of money on the side but is not interesting enough to really invest in. It is Star Wars, but then again it's 3000 years in the past compared to the movies and as such it's a bit of a niche game coming from KotoR. I always did wonder if that was an additional reason for people to walk away from SWTOR so quickly, because it was SW but not the stories people are generally used to.

 

In the end, I suppose I only see Square Enix and Blizzard as the type of companies that would invest big in their games with an eye for the future. EA and NcSoft for example are not that type of company from what I've experienced. EA is more the quick win and then build on it. SWTOR had a bad start, so they cut their losses and see what they can still get out of it, without spending too much money on it.

 

I submit that I believe that EA and BW do not have the type of attitude that makes such investments possible, meaning that they do not have the same amount of pride and faith in their products to be willing to really invest in it for the long-term.

[Icykill_]

I think the problem lies there and I suspect that this makes it more of an EA thing than a BW thing.

 

With Final Fantasy the game just wasn't good enough on launch reportedly. It's their own IP I guess and that might be part of it and the FF IP has a lot of games in it, so it's something they are invested in. When we see how BW is treating their own ME IP, I guess I can only conclude that they don't have the same type of pride in their own products. At least not anymore.

 

It seems to me that EA sees SWTOR as something that makes a bit of money on the side but is not interesting enough to really invest in. It is Star Wars, but then again it's 3000 years in the past compared to the movies and as such it's a bit of a niche game coming from KotoR. I always did wonder if that was an additional reason for people to walk away from SWTOR so quickly, because it was SW but not the stories people are generally used to.

 

In the end, I suppose I only see Square Enix and Blizzard as the type of companies that would invest big in their games with an eye for the future. EA and NcSoft for example are not that type of company from what I've experienced. EA is more the quick win and then build on it. SWTOR had a bad start, so they cut their losses and see what they can still get out of it, without spending too much money on it.

 

I submit that I believe that EA and BW do not have the type of attitude that makes such investments possible, meaning that they do not have the same amount of pride and faith in their products to be willing to really invest in it for the long-term.

 

If you've got the time watch the documentary, part two and part three are the best. Part one is ok and talks about the failure, but part 2 dives into how they went about fixing it.

[HuaRya]

It's pretty obvious Square Enix puts the money FF makes and reinvests it in the game itself. EA takes the profits from SWTOR and puts it toward other game development.

 

If SWTOR were an amusement park visitors would be separated into 17 sections of the park and never mingle unless they paid a dollar to transplant. There would be lots of rides and games but it would be hard to use them because it would require people to wait in queues for hours standing in a waiting room (fleet).

[Transcendent]

It isn't like EA can't afford it, they just don't have the right mindset

 

It's this, this sums everything up nicely in a short, sweet, concise point.

 

EA as a publisher, for all of their talk about changing, remain the publisher they have always been. They're not in this for making games for players and making their games long term investment models unless those games are annual release titles. EA simply don't understand the MMO model, they don't get it. As long as EA is making a profit on SWTOR then it'll stay as it is, struggling along with minimal investment which will come from the revenues it produces.

 

I wouldn't even be surprised if they shutter SWTOR when Anthem is released, purely to not detract from the investment made in that game.

 

Don't get me wrong here, I do firmly believe that Keith has the drive to improve this game with the resources he has to do that, as well as the dedication of the team of developers behind him. Is it enough to save this game? I'm not sure.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Transcendent

[DenariusJay]

EA is like how American Auto Manufacturer's were in the 70's. They don't care. Just slap some stickers on it, repaint the bumper, market it as the new model - and people will pay a premium. Never mind the fact the car is a POS and was vastly inferior to the foreign competition at that time.

 

South park nailed EA perfectly some time ago, "We are EA, F*** Y**"

 

Yeah, that's why this game is in the state its in. SE on the other hand, actually like , cares and stuff. They care. They WANT to make a great game. It's there passion, its there desire, its what consumes them. EAware, nah, just slap some new shinnies in the cartel market and call it a day.

 

Another poster nailed it. EA was, is, and will continue to be the problem. Will probably get an infraction for saying that but its the truth and needs to be said.

[Icykill_]

EA is like how American Auto Manufacturer's were in the 70's. They don't care. Just slap some stickers on it, repaint the bumper, market it as the new model - and people will pay a premium. Never mind the fact the car is a POS and was vastly inferior to the foreign competition at that time.

 

South park nailed EA perfectly some time ago, "We are EA, F*** Y**"

 

Yeah, that's why this game is in the state its in. SE on the other hand, actually like , cares and stuff. They care. They WANT to make a great game. It's there passion, its there desire, its what consumes them. EAware, nah, just slap some new shinnies in the cartel market and call it a day.

 

Another poster nailed it. EA was, is, and will continue to be the problem. Will probably get an infraction for saying that but its the truth and needs to be said.

 

You shouldn't get one because you didn't break any rules,

Edited July 24, 2017 by Icykill_

[Icykill_]

It's this, this sums everything up nicely in a short, sweet, concise point.

 

EA as a publisher, for all of their talk about changing, remain the publisher they have always been. They're not in this for making games for players and making their games long term investment models unless those games are annual release titles. EA simply don't understand the MMO model, they don't get it. As long as EA is making a profit on SWTOR then it'll stay as it is, struggling along with minimal investment which will come from the revenues it produces.

 

I wouldn't even be surprised if they shutter SWTOR when Anthem is released, purely to not detract from the investment made in that game.

 

Don't get me wrong here, I do firmly believe that Keith has the drive to improve this game with the resources he has to do that, as well as the dedication of the team of developers behind him. Is it enough to save this game? I'm not sure.

 

The silly thing is they could be making heaps more money if they invested. FF's subscription base is still climbing since they turned the game around 4 years ago. That doesn't happen if you aren't spending money to improve the game and add fresh content every 3-4 months. They are now over 7 mil subs. Even if they only get $10 a month that's $70 mil a month