Marauder and Operative Nerfs in 5.4

[Bird_of_Thunder]

i was mentioning the second effect of ruthless agressor utility, it doesn't ONLY give you insane 75% resist BUT you can vicious throw a ennemy regardless his life...

 

but i am agree on what you said, that's my point of view, even if sniper has no self heal too (only on utilities) and anni has self heal, i regulary selfheal 400-600k playing it (combined to thrist of rage).

 

 

 

outstanding counter mate, i am sure you do the same against mercs and all other situation, brilliant.

 

Really? Didn't notice that. Slaughter makes it so that we can use VT on anyone regardless of life too, it's core to our burst, so I didn't really notice that proc from ruthless Aggressor.

 

Annihilation's self-heal mechanics are a bit wonky as a self-heal is technically something that you click and it regains your health regardless of whether you're in combat or not. Annihilation can heal itself, sure, but you have to hit the target which majes healing while running away fairly impossible.

 

As for fury, I've talked with a couple of my mates who play it and they're argument against nerfing it is that CC immunity is part of what keeps Fury viable. Sure it has absurd burst, so that's what you should go after instead of the Obliterate immunity or whatever. Carnage has none of that. I trust you've played the game enough to see the PoV on this so I'll ultimately let you say whatever and not throw a fit about it, but these are just some things to consider from a long-time marauder main who has experience (if minimal) in all three specs.

[Shipwright]

Of course I have no idea what will be done, but reading that dev post which said that all healers have the same HPS target...I have the feeling that Op/Scoubdrel healers may be in big trouble.

 

I mean they have to overheal, constantly have HoTs up and running and constantly refreshing them.....have to make use of their AOE more it seems. Just suggests to me their numbers, due to this, are likely to appear exaggerated.

 

I could be way off and they get a little buff to single target but...right now I don't see that.

 

In any case I am not gonna freak out.

[funnypat]

Of course I have no idea what will be done, but reading that dev post which said that all healers have the same HPS target...I have the feeling that Op/Scoubdrel healers may be in big trouble.

 

I mean they have to overheal, constantly have HoTs up and running and constantly refreshing them.....have to make use of their AOE more it seems. Just suggests to me their numbers, due to this, are likely to appear exaggerated.

 

I could be way off and they get a little buff to single target but...right now I don't see that.

 

In any case I am not gonna freak out.

 

Exactly what i'm worrying about too, considering that we have to really perform exceptionally good to be any good in arenas.

The whole class is to keep your team close to full the entire time because once they fall beneath 50% you're in big trouble and can only rescue 1 with stim boost every 2 min (yeah that's our awesome burst).

 

You need to spam your hots all the time and overheal all the time - when everybody is at 100% usually sorcs will put down their phasewalk or refill their force or something like that.

 

We need to reapply our probes and hots to prepare for the next attack, because we have 1 burst heal every 2 min - all the other things are hots (surgical probe doesn't count because the healing is just too low - decent every 8 sec IF you have the time to prepare for the 2 GCD + ~2 sec you need to make it decent)

 

**** the numbers - just ask people how much they like having an op heal in ranked

 

Wish you a lovely day o/

Edited July 23, 2017 by funnypat

[Seterade]

^^

 

as long as the DPS changes are relatively small, and I see little reason to believe they'll be big changes (they're in the 2nd round of updates for a reason), they will have very, very little impact on pvp

 

concealment will still be a goofy 1v1/obj spec, the number of people seriously playing lethality will still be zero, and carnage and fury will still be great

 

wake me when they change utilities and important mechanics to how specs operate

 

This topic has gotten way too serious for me not going to add anything despite spec maining fury on my mara... but yellows post made me chuckle. recently I've been trolling 1v1s in pvp on my lethality op using quick shot 40% slow an kb (with heal) its been entertaining as all get out. even con ops have a hard time keeping up since I just toxin scan the crippling slash.

 

chuckles aside, I agree with yellow, you cant seriously play lethality cause he doesnt have required defs to stay up reasonably vs 2 players.

Edited July 23, 2017 by Seterade

[Glocko]

It will be a nerf, with no major changes to PT, SORC, Jugg it would make sense to take nerf bat to marauder and OP. It's a shell game... Nerf heals by 10% decrease DPS by 15% so in the end our 1-6 years of complaints results in things that none of us ask for. Mercs remain OP, heals remain OP but we are suppose to think they are addressing our complaints... In the end

 

1. Mercs and snipers will remain a cancer with 3 lives and spam slows

2. Heals remain a problem

3 PTs, and Juggs remain fodder in arenas but at least with a nerf marauders will be added to the list.

[AchillesStark]

They consider combat to be the burst spec since it does have higher burst than concentration. A 5 second window during and after precision does 100k+ damage. The comparable window for concentration does 80k damage. Thats why people run combat + sharpshooter for team ranked hardswaps and not concentration. That difference is marginal in regs but its pretty big in team ranked.

 

Over a 8 second window, both specs are pretty much the same in pvp.

 

While i do find it weird that they consider concentration to be a quasi-burst spec (its definitely a pure burst spec), im okay with them calling combat a burst spec.

[Bird_of_Thunder]

Im playing Jugger, which has become a skank in the latest meta and Fury Marauder main and since no change has been announced for Rage they won't change Fury. Carnage has too much 4m range requirement to be really good for pvp. same problem Opers have in enviroments with 10 knockbacks per minute and plethora of slows.

 

Carnage can be completely fixed for PvP with 2 changes: Make Ferocity a "next 2-3 attack" depending on Berserk.

2nd better ressource management like giving berserk +5-7 Rage on usage. Remove Rage reduction on Massacre from Berserk and that is it.

 

By no means should that change be made to ferocity. It's a net loss because with the window we can clip in a Vicious Throw and still get off 3 more abilities. If they do anything to Ferocity they should just make if 4 seconds with a tad longer of a CD. Carnage has ridiculous mobility and can stay on target very well if you spec it right so I don't think the range is a problem at all. They'll probably target our sustained damage cause it doesn't really fit us if we're a burst spec

[JargoFett]

I noticed Lightning Sorcs have been ignored before even after they alluded 6 weeks ago that they would be in this round of changes.

 

Glad I've unsubbed and won't be here for this next patch.

 

See you again next month when you resub.

[Skummy]

Yea they're going to buff maras and ops no doubt lololololololololol. I used to be addicted to this game and play everyday but since 4.0 i started to play less and less now in 5.0 i barely play one day unless my friends are on. so ty for this great update i went back outside again. keep up the great work guys!!!!!

[yellow_]

Carnage is the quasi-burst spec and Fury is the Burst spec, and I haven't seen one person yet to say they disagreed with that appraisal, players off both specs agree on that.

I'll be the first then.

 

A spec that does the vast majority of its damage in cycled 3 second windows between which you spam energy management and low/moderate damage filler abilities isn't the burst spec? I'll take some of whatever you guys are smoking. There isn't a spec IN THIS GAME, much less one specific to maras, that fits the description of burst spec better than carnage.

 

I'd love to see anyone look at the carnage DPS graph (huge spikes separated by lulls of barely any damage) and say that it's a "quasi burst" spec without any tingling of cognitive dissonance

 

p.s. there's no reason mara can't have 1 sustained spec and 2 burst specs. but if any of them are this silly "quasi burst" category, it's obviously not carnage

Edited July 23, 2017 by yellow_

[Equeliber]

I'll be the first then.

 

A spec that does the vast majority of its damage in cycled 3 second windows between which you spam energy management and low/moderate damage filler abilities isn't the burst spec? I'll take some of whatever you guys are smoking. There isn't a spec IN THIS GAME, much less one specific to maras, that fits the description of bust spec better than carnage.

 

I'd love to see anyone look at the carnage DPS graph (huge spikes separated by lulls of barely any damage) and say that it's a "quasi burst" spec without any tingling of cognitive dissonance

 

p.s. there's no reason mara can't have 1 sustained spec and 2 burst specs. but if any of them are this silly "quasi burst" category, it's obviously not carnage

 

Exactly. Take away the ferocity burst windows and Carnage has no damage. Where is this "quasi" part? In spamming assault and massacre? Out of all specs in the game i always considered Carnage to be THE definition of a Burst spec. No spec is more burst-based than Carnage.

[merovejec]

Why panic over a discussion of a tweek update until the actual update is out?

 

DOOMSDAY IS COMING!

😅😅😅

 

You must be new here

 

That is the point of the forums.

[merovejec]

If Fury gets buffed and Carnage gets nerfed, Carnage will be completely obsolete because Fury is easier, more reliable, and it has better burst, it would completely eclipse carnage. They're be no point to it.

 

If that happens, that's it for me. I don't mind adjustment, but not when it's being adjusted for being in a category it doesn't belong.

 

To be honest this was the main thing that got me irritated. With the arrival of Utilities we got the 25%+ dmg on Cyclone Slash which pretty much killed off Concentration as a AoE spec as Combat was WAY ahead in this. I would welcome it to be put back right as it was.

[merovejec]

maraudeur is clearly op and needs a big nerf.

 

so if they buff fury, it will be a big fat joke. they already have two 25k easy burst hit combined with a hilarious amount of seconds of total immunity.

 

lol Fury is quite behind Carnage and Carnage has it hard in PVP due to mobility so I would say they are setup right. The only issue is Concentration in PVE, its simply outmatched by Combat and there is no real point of playing it in PVE.

[merovejec]

Marauder was in the best spot in 5.0 a class with minimal self heals but with good dps.

 

And yes, I main a fury marauder and that's the only class I play and will play.

 

"standing ovations"

[Beyrahl]

I'll be the first then.

 

A spec that does the vast majority of its damage in cycled 3 second windows between which you spam energy management and low/moderate damage filler abilities isn't the burst spec? I'll take some of whatever you guys are smoking. There isn't a spec IN THIS GAME, much less one specific to maras, that fits the description of burst spec better than carnage.

 

I'd love to see anyone look at the carnage DPS graph (huge spikes separated by lulls of barely any damage) and say that it's a "quasi burst" spec without any tingling of cognitive dissonance

 

p.s. there's no reason mara can't have 1 sustained spec and 2 burst specs. but if any of them are this silly "quasi burst" category, it's obviously not carnage

 

I can agree with this, it's a pure dps class no reason it shouldn't. Along with that I have to disagree with "lulls of barely any damage" Massacre filler isn't something to laugh at, i've hit multiple 18ks and average 12-14k with it. Which is larger than any of the other fillers out there at such speeds.

The only difference is that it's white damage compared to something like laceration so adding in defense chance, dcds and other things like tanks it goes down.

[teclado]

Class balance – The following Disciplines are receiving changes (details will follow in the next few weeks):

 

Lethality / Ruffian

Concealment / Scrapper

Medicine / Sawbones

Fury / Concentration

Carnage / Combat

 

As you can see posted in general section in 5.4 thread, they are nerfing these disciplines.

I'm late to this thread, and others have already said it, but I'll toss in my 2C as well.

 

Not all of those will be nerfed. They are not nerfing Fury/Conc damage. Take a bad sustained damage melee quasi-burst spec and make it worse? No way. It's getting buffed. I could see a nerf to Carnage/Combat damage, if only because the sustained damage is pretty good for a burst spec (and yes, it is absolutely a burst spec - I think that Doc did a good job explaining why). Not saying I agree with nerfing it. Just saying that it would fit their balance philosophy (misguided as it may be).

 

I can't really speak to the op / scound, other than to say this: people love to hate them. They are not really that great overall. They are harder than average to play well. They are super annoying and can seem to be almost impossible to kill sometimes...but they really aren't that strong.

Edited July 24, 2017 by teclado

[Ottoattack]

I'll be the first then.

 

A spec that does the vast majority of its damage in cycled 3 second windows between which you spam energy management and low/moderate damage filler abilities isn't the burst spec? I'll take some of whatever you guys are smoking. There isn't a spec IN THIS GAME, much less one specific to maras, that fits the description of burst spec better than carnage.

 

I'd love to see anyone look at the carnage DPS graph (huge spikes separated by lulls of barely any damage) and say that it's a "quasi burst" spec without any tingling of cognitive dissonance

 

p.s. there's no reason mara can't have 1 sustained spec and 2 burst specs. but if any of them are this silly "quasi burst" category, it's obviously not carnage

 

This is 100% correct. This issue that many are ignoring is that fury has better up time on target and anti kiting tools than carnage. It has more 10 meter options, additional slow and CC immunity. So the question becomes why should fury deal more damage than carnage that requires you to more so in close range and has less anti kiting/cc tools?

 

Not saying that carnage should be superior, rather that they should be close to each other in terms of overall dps. If fury is buffed and carnage is nerfed, it is hard sell to play carnage in any content over fury. A buff to fury sustained damage would be nice though.

[Thaladan]

buff concealment and fury maybe good for pve balance but in a PvP perspective it will be worse than now.

 

the nerf/buff utilities period needs to be the sooner possible after this 5.4 last dps/hps change.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Thaladan

[yellow_]

This is 100% correct. This issue that many are ignoring is that fury has better up time on target and anti kiting tools than carnage. It has more 10 meter options, additional slow and CC immunity. So the question becomes why should fury deal more damage than carnage that requires you to more so in close range and has less anti kiting/cc tools?

 

Not saying that carnage should be superior, rather that they should be close to each other in terms of overall dps. If fury is buffed and carnage is nerfed, it is hard sell to play carnage in any content over fury. A buff to fury sustained damage would be nice though.

Ultimately they need to bring more granularity to determining their target values for each spec than just the "ranged/melee + sustain/burst" categorizations.

 

Carnage's highly conditional burst and huge APM requirement ought to count for something in its target DPS.

[Lundorff]

buff concealment.

 

No thanks. At least not in the sense of more DPS as any buffs in 5.4 would suggest. It is really not needed. What is however needed, is some type of "please stop attacking me while I am stunned"-skill. Right now you can only hope that all your probes (healing and shield) are active when being focused while stunned. This is especially a problem in ranked.

[Thaladan]

you really quote like i would ask a buff to concealment lol ^^

 

i am agree with ya actually warzones are full of maras, concealment and deception for dps specs...(in TRE)

 

and stun chain to death replace the spam e-net now.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Thaladan

[septru]

No thanks. At least not in the sense of more DPS as any buffs in 5.4 would suggest. It is really not needed. What is however needed, is some type of "please stop attacking me while I am stunned"-skill. Right now you can only hope that all your probes (healing and shield) are active when being focused while stunned. This is especially a problem in ranked.

 

There are so too many problems with your screenshots to support the conclusion you are trying to prove.

 

First off, I do acknowledge that your damage is on the high side for all the screenshots.

 

It is important to use damage per second (dps) when talking about a class overpreforming in damage, because it gives a reference to how close your damage is to the average maximum dps of each class/spec. For example concealment dps is roughly at a little below 5k dps. To put that in perspective marauders, snipers, and mercs are all at 7k. THESE NUMBERS ARE NOT RELATED TO PARSING NUMBERS (this is where biowear screws up). Parsing numbers are different than average maximum dps because you are not reflecting the Pvp aspect, such as using gcds for cooldowns or your target kiting you. Another thing to consider is how sustainable your class is. For example: PT's will have a maximum dps at around 7k when they are not focused and will sometimes dps higher than maras, but they also die much much faster than maras because their cooldowns suck and will usually dps at around 5k.

 

In regards to your warzones: Your screenshots do not show your dps. Your numbers do look high but we can not analysis them correctly because we don't know several factors, like what kind of warzone (objective based or deathmatch based)? Did everyone else suck and that's why their numbers are so low?

 

In regards to your arenas: You are now showing your dps and your dps looks very high, but I do notice that you aren't doing much healing at all. At least for having healers in your game you can do 200k heals just keeping hots on yourself. 350k if you keep hots on your healer. And around 500k if you are offhealing your whole team, keeping probes semi-decently up, and using kolto infusion off cooldown while managing your energy. Because your healing was extremely low most of the games I am guessing you were not being focused. Everyone knows that an operatives damage goes down the drain when he/she has to worry about keeping himself/herself up.

[JHeezey]

RIP PT/VG. Just saying....

 

Looks like I will still be using my utilities to maximize my potential to run away - such fun.

 

In all seriousness, I will hang on for another patch because I enjoy this game, but c'mon devs: show us PT/VGs some love!

[Thaladan]

RIP PT/VG. Just saying....

 

Looks like I will still be using my utilities to maximize my potential to run away - such fun.

 

In all seriousness, I will hang on for another patch because I enjoy this game, but c'mon devs: show us PT/VGs some love!

 

it's not a coincidence if the two worst dps classes in PvP, PT/VG and sage/sorcs have the worst utilities too, especially the legendaries.

 

just sayin

Edited July 24, 2017 by Thaladan