Incompetence.

[Bonzenaattori]

The point is (from what I can tell)

This was the parseley leaderboards before merc arsenal dps was even nerfed.

 

It's obviously suspect for a dev team to say "they're doing higher than target dps" as if its a big deal, when they're not top ranked or even remotely close to any of the top rankers.

Lethality, Deception, Watchman.

 

Those have been top for quite a while, and Mercenary wasn't even in close contention with it.

That combined with the fact that EVERY complaint revolving around merc was their survivability, not their damage output.

[robertthebard]

 

Seriously though, I'd be fine with a minor nerf to where we're still 5% over Combat Sentinels and Dirty Fighter Gunslingers. I just worry that any nerf BW does will be from orbit, into the ground

 

You mean like the Seer nerf? Nerf defense, nerf heals, and say "See, we've done a good thing". It's great virtue signaling to the PvP community, but it's a big *edited for television* for everyone else. They cry loudest, and most often, so they must have legitimate issues, right? Never mind that that issue might be "lack of skill", BW can cater to that, the last several years of periodic nerfs will attest to that.

 

Qualifier: I could, and did solo Battle of ilum on the sorc healer, back when you had to gear comps and the cap was 55 with no level sync. I'm not seeing the lack of skill required to justify "L2P" when, yesterday, running a Seer through Heroics on Balmorra, I spent as much time running in circles as I did trying to dps mobs down, or heal through their damage. The problem with nerfing heals and defense on a Heal spec is that, with no increase of DPS to (wait for it) balance it, it makes classes unplayable in solo content, and since some of the content is solo by design, well, you see where I'm going with this, right?

[robertthebard]

Serious Question: Did you miss the many times when devs said:

 

 

The game isn't currently balanced and won't be until after 5.4. Comparing classes or declaring incompetence at this point is just premature. I get your frustration, as someone who probably had their class nerfed while others so far have remained untouched. However to see whether they are doing a good job or not we have to wait to see what happens in 5.4.

 

Oh and if you want to compare DPS I suggest that you use this listing

https://torcommunity.com/guides/miscellaneous/class-rankings

and get the algorithm used to calculate it and run the average parses of the new balanced classes... If 5.4 doesn't bring Lethality down to PT(what I've mained since 3.5) then there will be reason to complain.

 

Actually, I disagree. This is the perfect time to indicate that they done messed it up. They did, and going forward with this philosophy isn't good for the game at large, just for one particular subset of the game. It's great virtue signaling to them, you know, the "we hear you, and we're going to continue to make your lives easier, even if we have to break the rest of the game to do it" that's been going on since I've been here. It's what caused me to unsub several months back, and will have me cancelling my "well, let's see how bad it is now" pity sub too.

 

I don't PvP, and I'm not going to pay to have my classes nerfed to accommodate it. I'm not going to buy the "we don't compare specs directly" jargon, because I'm looking at the end result of comparing them directly on the classes that have already been butchered to accommodate the low skill ceiling in PvP, and it didn't start with 5.3, it's been an ongoing issue since RotHC, when I joined. 5.3 merely compounded the issue, making some classes almost unplayable in some solo oriented content, where groups are not allowed.

 

This is what I see as a problem, though: Let's nerf Seer's defenses and heals, PvP does say they're overperforming after all, but not give them any offensive buffs to balance it out for solo content, because then the PvPers will still be complaining. That's the mindset for 5.3, insert whatever affected classes you like, and build on that with 5.4.

[HuaRya]

Get ready for gank premades running in regs. The worst of the worst. Essentially it will be a group of stealthers killing node guarders and those unfortunate enough not to be traveling with a group. Lethality Operative is definitely a low ping fast computer class. I can hear their punching sounds now as I type this as one has just crept up on me and is proceeding to ahh...........

[JediQuaker]

I don't quite see what all the fuss is about. If there's some particular class that is OP or more useful for PvP, or whatever, then just roll a character of that class. Does it actually matter what class the players are in PvP? For serious PvPers I mean, not those who want to RP their PvP.

[Rion_Starkiller]

Get ready for gank premades running in regs. The worst of the worst. Essentially it will be a group of stealthers killing node guarders and those unfortunate enough not to be traveling with a group. Lethality Operative is definitely a low ping fast computer class. I can hear their punching sounds now as I type this as one has just crept up on me and is proceeding to ahh...........

 

Punching sounds is scrapper

 

And if I saw a bunch of ruffian scoundrels/ lethality ops running around in premades, I would be very amused

[TUXs]

The point is (from what I can tell)

This was the parseley leaderboards before merc arsenal dps was even nerfed.

 

It's obviously suspect for a dev team to say "they're doing higher than target dps" as if its a big deal, when they're not top ranked or even remotely close to any of the top rankers.

Lethality, Deception, Watchman.

 

Those have been top for quite a while, and Mercenary wasn't even in close contention with it.

That combined with the fact that EVERY complaint revolving around merc was their survivability, not their damage output.

EXACTLY what I see as well.

[krfsm]

I don't PvP, and I'm not going to pay to have my classes nerfed to accommodate it. I'm not going to buy the "we don't compare specs directly" jargon, because I'm looking at the end result of comparing them directly on the classes that have already been butchered to accommodate the low skill ceiling in PvP, and it didn't start with 5.3, it's been an ongoing issue since RotHC, when I joined. 5.3 merely compounded the issue, making some classes almost unplayable in some solo oriented content, where groups are not allowed.

 

This is what I see as a problem, though: Let's nerf Seer's defenses and heals, PvP does say they're overperforming after all, but not give them any offensive buffs to balance it out for solo content, because then the PvPers will still be complaining. That's the mindset for 5.3, insert whatever affected classes you like, and build on that with 5.4.

 

I don't PVP much either, but it's clear even when viewed from orbit that none of the nerfs in 5.3 were PVP based. Especially merc changes were completely different stuff compared to what PVPers complained about.

 

The sorc/seer healing nerf was simply driven by the fact that they healed way better than intended when PVE content was scaled. It's possible that other healers will be slightly nerfed too.

 

Btw, which solo oriented content are sorc healers unplayable in now?

 

I don't quite see what all the fuss is about. If there's some particular class that is OP or more useful for PvP, or whatever, then just roll a character of that class. Does it actually matter what class the players are in PvP? For serious PvPers I mean, not those who want to RP their PvP.

 

If 5-6 out of 24 specs are viable in PVP, then it's much less variety and less entertaining than if all or a vast majority of specs are viable. Just as if only 5-6 of all specs were viable in PVE. And since switching costs are considerable with the new gearing system, it matters even more.

[CaptainBlackjack]

I would like to see them create a single PVP class and that would be the only class in pvp so fight with what you bring in skills you have a seperate reward tree PVP only and you "NEVER HAVE TO BALANCE PVP EVER AGAIN" and then PVE can be left alone with all the classes designed to work in group content as it was in the beginning.

[caraniente]

I can think of two explanations:

1) Lethality / Ruffian is going to get nerfed as well in the not-so-distant future.

2) Lethality / Ruffian has some kind of glitch or trick that can only be used in a dummy parse scenario, that has little bearing on reality. This kind of thing happens sometimes.

 

I do know that ops teams don't run full Lethality / Ruffian. So, clearly this is a case of parse glitch anomaly.

 

As far as I know Lethality doesn't have a glitch (unless it's a recently-added one) BUT - there's a reason nobody is running full Lethality in ops and that's because those dummy parses don't translate to boss fights, and due to the horrific ramp-up time (3 GCDs to setup before doing any real damage) and terrible target-switching they're not much use outside of boss fights either.

 

If you look at HM boss parses instead of dummy parses, while operative is riding high for a change (up to 5.0 they weren't considered viable for NiM ops by most teams and dubious for HM) they're rarely top of the charts. In fights with adds you'd prefer something that can target-switch and in fights without adds you usually have a tonne of knockbacks and ground-effects to avoid and want a ranged.

 

I don't play much PvP these days but Lethality was largely useless in the last expansion - nice survivability but no damage. I can't imagine it's all that dangerous now, just because it takes so long to ramp up that it should be dead before it even does damage - or am I missing something?

 

Don't get me wrong I still expect a nerf, just because of the parses, but there's a lot more to a class than what it puts out on a dummy - hence all the complaints about arsenal merc, no?

[Threjyan]

 

The sorc/seer healing nerf was simply driven by the fact that they healed way better than intended when PVE content was scaled

 

 

so they were not healing more then intended in wz? kappa

Edited July 14, 2017 by Threjyan

[robertthebard]

I don't PVP much either, but it's clear even when viewed from orbit that none of the nerfs in 5.3 were PVP based. Especially merc changes were completely different stuff compared to what PVPers complained about.

 

The sorc/seer healing nerf was simply driven by the fact that they healed way better than intended when PVE content was scaled. It's possible that other healers will be slightly nerfed too.

 

Btw, which solo oriented content are sorc healers unplayable in now?

 

I've been sitting here wondering how much prep I should do for Visions in the Dark before I try it, even on Story Mode, if a H2 on Balmorra was rough on a full 228 Seer. Should I be attempting to have T4 gear before I try to progress the story, or, should I just cancel the sub, as I did when they butchered the Phase Walk exploit fixes, and move on? Perhaps it won't be as negative in a group setting, where you're not expected to fill all three roles, but when you're in there alone, by design, there's going to be issues.

 

If 5-6 out of 24 specs are viable in PVP, then it's much less variety and less entertaining than if all or a vast majority of specs are viable. Just as if only 5-6 of all specs were viable in PVE. And since switching costs are considerable with the new gearing system, it matters even more.

 

The thing is, all of them were viable, barring skill ceilings that is. The issue is that we're playing a game where the company will, instead of realizing that the rock, paper scissors meme exists for a reason, nerf classes to assuage the tears. It's been an ongoing issue since RotHC, and is continuing now. That they have to preface it with "We're not doing this for PvP" should tell you all you need to know.

[krfsm]

so they were not healing more then intended in wz? kappa

 

Of course they were, too. Probably all healers were. But most of all everyone has a boatload of defensive cooldowns, so its easier to keep people alive. But the reason you can't just boost everyone else is PVE.

 

I've been sitting here wondering how much prep I should do for Visions in the Dark before I try it, even on Story Mode, if a H2 on Balmorra was rough on a full 228 Seer. Should I be attempting to have T4 gear before I try to progress the story, or, should I just cancel the sub, as I did when they butchered the Phase Walk exploit fixes, and move on? Perhaps it won't be as negative in a group setting, where you're not expected to fill all three roles, but when you're in there alone, by design, there's going to be issues.

 

It is indeed a bit harder to solo content as a healer, since your companion isn't very easy to control, comparatively. As a healer you're more dependent on your comp doing more than standing around channeling heals. I haven't actually tried that chapter as a healer - I probably should go do that.

 

The thing is, all of them were viable, barring skill ceilings that is. The issue is that we're playing a game where the company will, instead of realizing that the rock, paper scissors meme exists for a reason, nerf classes to assuage the tears. It's been an ongoing issue since RotHC, and is continuing now. That they have to preface it with "We're not doing this for PvP" should tell you all you need to know.

 

Has there been any nerf in the history of the game that you feel was not due to PVP?

[robertthebard]

Of course they were, too. Probably all healers were. But most of all everyone has a boatload of defensive cooldowns, so its easier to keep people alive. But the reason you can't just boost everyone else is PVE.

 

 

 

It is indeed a bit harder to solo content as a healer, since your companion isn't very easy to control, comparatively. As a healer you're more dependent on your comp doing more than standing around channeling heals. I haven't actually tried that chapter as a healer - I probably should go do that.

 

 

 

Has there been any nerf in the history of the game that you feel was not due to PVP?

 

None that stand out, in all seriousness. Maybe it's because those stick with me longer than anything else. Some of them have been trivial, in my eyes, such as Orbital Tickle, since I had only had it for one day when it got nuked from orbit. The Phase Walk debacle, though, was the proverbial last straw. Especially since the best way to go about it would have been to simply remove it from the non tank specs, thus curing the whole issue, since tank range on the skills used for the exploit was much shorter than the dps versions. Now we have this, which is going to hurt story players a lot, all while turning down the heat in the PvP forums.

[Thruine]

I don't quite see what all the fuss is about. If there's some particular class that is OP or more useful for PvP, or whatever, then just roll a character of that class. Does it actually matter what class the players are in PvP? For serious PvPers I mean, not those who want to RP their PvP.

 

See, that's always my thought. If such and such class is so great then why doesn't everyone play it in PvP. I mainly feel like this (and I like PvP) due to my first online game had only a handful of classes and one in particular was deemed the PvP class so that's what everyone played. Didn't have any balance issues either Anyways, that's what I did since my guild at the time was set up so we had our PvE characters and PvP character. We all had our guild initials as the first part of our PcP character's name. All guilds did that. We'd have matches set up since there wasn't a designated battleground. I had a great time there. Best PvP experience in my whole gaming life.

 

Of course this was back in the stone age. You kids have it all now.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Why? This is the reason why I named this thread "Incompetence" - because there is literally zero reasons why melee specs must parse higher than the ranged specs.

Melee specs have skills that allow them to shorten the distance, and are usually on a very short cd (15 seconds).

They have speed buffs.

They do not have to cast their abilities, which means moving out of stuff during raid encounter does not prevent them to use their abilities.

The only advantage of the ranged spec is well the range itself, which is almost neglectable on most boss fights, because the mechanics are created in a way to not put melees in a big disadvantage.

 

Do they have abilities that let them stand in the red circle around malaphar after they have accumulated too many stacks? Is standing outside the circle while you are waiting for stacks to fall off within melee range? Is there anywhere in that entire area that you could go where u still wouldnt be in attack range?

 

Is there an ability that melee have so that if they get the firebug in the Thrasher fight and have to run around the edges of the room during that time that elongates their arms by 10 ' while they are running around the edges of the room, and can get the firebug more than once.

 

Are you unable to attack the boss as a ranged if your running around the edges of the room?

 

If when thrasher goes down and I'm on the ground with a merc but there are still adds alive on the upper level, how come I can't attack him but he seems to have no trouble shooting them? Why is that?

 

Is there an ability melee have that allows them to not have to constantly move around going to safe area while birage or eploding carts, is going in in the bulo fight? Is there anywhere in that fight that you can where you still couldn't be in attack range?

 

Is there an ability that melee have that allows them to have unlimited force leaps so that when sparky jumps around in quick sucession we can always keep up with him? Is there anywhere in that arena you could go where you wouldn't be in attack range? Do we also have that same ability when Ruugar and Pearl jump around so we can keep up with their leaping around every 3 seconds?

 

How come I never seen ranged dps standing near where I am fighting during Torque HM? I'm confused, do ranged dps have a minimum distance they have to be between themselves and their targets or could they just stand right next to the melee during the entire fight? I wonder why I never see mercs fighting next to me during Sword Squadron HM. Speaking of which, if you get the white grenade, are you too, like melee unable to still attack while you have to go a safe distance away so that when the grenade explodes you don't get half your group blasted?

 

During underlurker hm, when the lurkerlings are down and the slows start coming and you can't force leap to the one that's still up that the other dood couldn't kill in time, does that stop you from attacking that lurkerling 25' out? How long, exactly, do you think melee's arms are?

 

You see a lot of Marauders and Juggs creeping out from behind the bolder a lil bit before rage storm actually starts getting a few pot shots off. And when you are running to those fallen rocks to hide behind, once you get further than 4' from Underlurker, does that stop you from attacking while you are running too?

 

How come during the Ciphas, Heirad, and Kel’Sara fight in TFB, if I get doom and I have to run through 3 green circles I can't keep attacking the whole time I'm running through them, but rDPS can?

 

How come there is anywhere in that entire room during that fight, that you will never be out of attack range, but melee will? Why do the laws of physics make it that way?

 

How come during that fight I have to chase after enemies and you don't? How come while I'm chasing them I'm not supposed to step in stupid even if that means I'll go out of attack range? How come you don't have to worry about running through stupid so you can stay in attack range? Why aren't you running around with the melee DPS? You can DPS just as well right up close to the boss just like melee can.

 

How come when you fight, you fight from 5 blocks away, and when I fight I have to be within arms reach of the boss? How come your not taking cleave damage from some of those boss aoes?

 

That was a rhetorical question. We all know why you fight from 5 blocks away. It's safer, and it's easier. Let me be clear.... Easier and Safer.

 

Which is why ranged DPS are preferred in many instances to melee because ranged is safer and less prone to take damage than melee.

 

You don't face the same risks as melee, you don't have to work as hard as melee, you don't have to be as on the ball as melee do, and in case you have never done the math, your attack range is 7.5 times as far as melee.

 

You didn't get nerfed because of Melee. You got nerfed because you were OP as shyt.

 

Did you ever consider the possibility that in those instance where melee did better DPS than the ranged, that it nothing to do with uptime differences, but instead they just played better than you did?

 

No one is saying that melee DPS is bad. They are saying that their DPS is not as much as it would be if they had the same uptime as ranged do.

 

If you say that there are no instances due to mechanics where melee has more forced downtime than ranged, that melee, and that they do not run a greater risk of damage, than there is no legitimaate reason that you shouldn't be standing right next to the melee while fighting the boss.

 

Not 30', not 20', not 15' away, 4'.

 

You have no minimum attack range, if mechanics aren't an issue, if damage isn't an issue than be a man, and stand where the melee do.

 

If you continue to fight further away than 4', it isn't because you can't, it isn't because it will impair your effectiveness to DPS, it's because you know damn well that it's harder to avoid some mechanics while in melee range and it's more dangerous to stand as close to the boss as melee do.

 

If there is no difference in uptime or danger, than there isn't one thing stopping you from standing next to the big boys when the shyt starts flying.

 

How much you want to bet, you're still going to be fighting from 5 blocks away? Put your money where your mouth is or stop complaining about 5%. You can't have it both ways. You know what, I don't even care about the 5%, keep the damn 5% if it will stop you from whining a out it like a schoolgirl. It isn't even about the DPS, it's simple damn courteousy. Just acknowledge the effort and keep the damn 5%.

4' away or you're a [p]wussy.

Edited July 14, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[krfsm]

None that stand out, in all seriousness. Maybe it's because those stick with me longer than anything else. Some of them have been trivial, in my eyes, such as Orbital Tickle, since I had only had it for one day when it got nuked from orbit. The Phase Walk debacle, though, was the proverbial last straw. Especially since the best way to go about it would have been to simply remove it from the non tank specs, thus curing the whole issue, since tank range on the skills used for the exploit was much shorter than the dps versions. Now we have this, which is going to hurt story players a lot, all while turning down the heat in the PvP forums.

 

I do agree that phase walk has had me wondering, and I do miss it on assassin. But most of the stuff they brought this time was clearly not due to pvpers, but what BW felt about the classes:

 

- Hatred, pyrotech, and madness clearly were underperforming in PVE compared to comparable specs. Very few played those in PVE.

 

- Virulence, engineering and IO were way above most specs except lethality.

 

- Arsenal was considerably better than comparable specs such as marksmanship or lightning. It was also good enough to make most people ignore IO, despite IO dps being really, really good too. (Partially because arsenal has excellent survivability, though.)

 

Stuff pvpers complained about:

 

- Merc DPS survivability. Nothing was done about this except decoy got fewer charges. Merc survivability is still monster good.

 

Btw, I tried visions in the dark on story as a healer. I slapped on some old 220-224 gear and dropped implants and earpiece completely. Besides dying from boredom, there wasn't even a remote risk of dying.

 

(Might be different as a dps. Nerfing bubble and dark heal for dps was uncalled for, but I doubt it will make story mode unplayable.)

[Jamtas]

snip

 

Range vs melee:

 

[Kurj]

Range vs melee:

 

 

That scene still makes me laugh.