Story Discussion - Shadow of Revan through KOTET

[GalacticKegger]

Hey folks,

 

Since the other thread got a little off-topic, I am remaking. This thread is to discuss the story of SoR > KOTFE > KOTET and your feelings on it.

Why solo-only? Why was the ability to play through quest dialogues removed in SoR? And for crying out loud why was group play in KOTFE > KOTET's story removed entirely? Why can't players like my wife and I have the option to level through (not just spectate) KOTFE's & KOTET's story together?

[Tisaren]

Although I'm convinced that the people at BW set out to create good stories, I couldn't get into KotFE and KotET. It's writing 101 to get the reader, in this case the player, emotionally invested in characters. BW did a great job in the original SWTOR as they did in their other games (DA, ME and so on).

 

Unfortunately, as far as I'm concerned, any investment and immersion was completely destroyed once 'we' became the outlander and 'we' lost our companions. The history of my character didn't matter anymore and even my class didn't have any significant meaning. Who was left to care about, including the player character her/himself?

 

This, combined with the fact that quite a few chapters played like Pacman 3D with skytroopers as ghosts, made me stop playing these expansions. Only two of my current toons have gone through KotFE/KotET. I have deleted four toons that I had started KotFE with, because at one point I just couldn't stand it anymore. So now nearly all of my level 70 toons still have all their original companions on their ships.

 

Again, I'm sure BW tries to get the best content out (why wouldn't they?), but KotFE/KotET just didn't do it for me.

 

If I had any say in this, I'd pull a 'Bobby Ewing' and say that KotFE/KotET never really happened and that it was all just a nightmare the player character had while frozen in carbonite. When he/she wakes up he/she will be back in the pre-KotFE galaxy

Edited July 5, 2017 by Tisaren

[SirMannii]

I couldn't help but feeling I was the wrong hero. I played as my Gunslinger but in every cutscene I just wanted to be a Jedi Knight or Sith Warrior. The entire Eternal Emperor storyline just doesn't fit my class in any way. I'm a Smuggler and a Gunslinger and I've had a great adventure mostly. But almost since Shadow of Revan and especially Kotfe and Kotet I don't like the direction of how my character develops. It doesn't feel right anymore, unfortunately.

[ravenpersona]

I think truly the problem people had with the expansions is they felt like they were made for fans of true Star Wars and had many of the same themes like balancing the force and yourself. Less light side dark side absolute and more bendu focused. Every chapter felt like an episode of Clone wars or Rebels with my character as the star and I loved it.

 

I think that was the problem though they don't like or want true Star Wars since SWTOR is based of the fan fiction they probably grew up with, just my assumption that most that didn't like it are older i might be wrong, they wanted it to fit more with that theme, but that's not what Star Wars ever really was just what they thought it was because again after the original ok movies there was no new star wars for like 30 years or so.

Edited July 6, 2017 by ravenpersona

[BorisKarloffe]

I think truly the problem people had with the expansions is they felt like they were made for fans of true Star Wars and had many of the same themes like balancing the force and yourself. Less light side dark side absolute and more bendu focused. Every chapter felt like an episode of Clone wars or Rebels with my character as the star and I loved it.

 

I think that was the problem though they don't like or want true Star Wars since SWTOR is based of the fan fiction they probably grew up with, just my assumption that most that didn't like it are older i might be wrong, they wanted it to fit more with that theme, but that's not what Star Wars ever really was just what they thought it was because again after the original ok movies there was no new star wars for like 30 years or so.

 

Not sure I'm following your rationale here. You think people didn't like it because they're Star Wars purists or because you think KotFEET was too purist for the....."commoners"?

 

"Every chapter felt like an episode...with my character as the star"....if your choices, romances, and friends get taken away without being able to ask or look for them, if you get strung along by numerous other characters, get lied to repeatedly and can't do anything about it, get betrayed repeatedly but can't do anything about it, don't even get your own name, or have your past accomplishments acknowledged, then no...can't say it's a starring role at all. Sounds more like a Red-Shirt role in (another prominent Sci-fi franchise) without the horrible death at the end.

 

"...Swtor is based of (sic) the fanfiction they grew up with" Oh, pray tell, then. Where does the true fount of Star Wars lore spring from? That we all may eschew this drivel and drink from the purest form of Star Wars....

[ravenpersona]

Not sure I'm following your rationale here. You think people didn't like it because they're Star Wars purists or because you think KotFEET was too purist for the....."commoners"?

 

"Every chapter felt like an episode...with my character as the star"....if your choices, romances, and friends get taken away without being able to ask or look for them, if you get strung along by numerous other characters, get lied to repeatedly and can't do anything about it, get betrayed repeatedly but can't do anything about it, don't even get your own name, or have your past accomplishments acknowledged, then no...can't say it's a starring role at all. Sounds more like a Red-Shirt role in (another prominent Sci-fi franchise) without the horrible death at the end.

 

"...Swtor is based of (sic) the fanfiction they grew up with" Oh, pray tell, then. Where does the true fount of Star Wars lore spring from? That we all may eschew this drivel and drink from the purest form of Star Wars....

 

What I meant was it was a very cinematic experience say like the last of us, where yeah you make choices but the game is still gonna go with the script.

 

And for the fanfiction every thing before the prequels except the first trilogy all star wars fans had was fanfiction and after that it wasn't until clone wars when more real star wars came out, and most of the fanfiction has a different feel from true star wars.

 

Remember just because you make and control a character doesn't mean you get Todo whatever you want, if that was true my shephard would have never worked withcerberus

Edited July 6, 2017 by ravenpersona

[BorisKarloffe]

What I meant was it was a very cinematic experience say like the last of us, where yeah you make choices but the game is still gonna go with the script.

 

Never played Last of Us, but you know...."Choices Matter"

 

And for the fanfiction every thing before the prequels except the first trilogy all star wars fans had was fanfiction and after that it wasn't until clone wars when more real star wars came out' date=' and most of the fanfiction has a different feel from true star wars.[/quote']

 

So...are you saying all the stuff in the EU (now dubbed the Legends Universe) was all fanfiction? Or are you just not aware of its existence?

 

Remember just because you make and control a character doesn't mean you get Todo whatever you want' date=' if that was true my shephard would have never worked withcerberus[/quote']

 

Railroaded into one choice? Boo, but whatever. Railroaded in all your choices? ***?....Why am I paying for this?....We even got railroaded into which mobs we would face...

[ZionHalcyon]

So, I had a thought to move the plot forward back on course to what those who felt the Valkorion persona was too much unlike Vitiate, while still keeping the integrity of KotFE and KotET for those who don't want to have it changed in any way.

 

The precedent has already been set in the game, therefore, it would be a plausible in-game explanation.

 

 

We know Vitiate's real body is a sith pure blood - something Valkorion isn't, and also something Vitiate himself isn't at the end of the original Jedi Knight story. We know he body hops. We also know thanks to Shadow of Revan, that it not only is possible for a powerful force entity to split itself into two, but for one of those entities to be completely unaware of the other, even if the other is aware. So what if that little trick is something Revan picked up subconsciously from the Emperor while imprisoned?

 

In other words, what if Vitiate is still the same world-eater he has been throughout the vanilla game, but to retcon Charles's take on Valkorion to something more consistent with the original story, rather than become all familial and odd because "reasons", Vitiate dominated Valkorion as suggested, and separated himself, putting into Valkorion those things he deemed unnecessary and distracting from his desire to become a god and remake the galaxy - namely, the desires to start a family, emotions like love, etc. It would explain how he could be Eternal, Powerful, and yet still the compassionate ruler the people of Zakuul loved.

 

However, post Ziost, which is about when Senya stated Valkorion began to grow cold, that was because Vitiate launched a plan where Zakuul would nearly wipe out the Sith and Jedi, to use the death to feed his hunger and to work towards a new ritual to complete his transformation. He started to slide himself into Valkorion, unknown to even the Valkorion-side himself, and influence the decisions Valkorion made.

 

Everything happens in KotFE and KotET as described. Valkorion isn't Vitiate himself, but just another one of his bodies he's possessed. Therefore, Vitiate is still at large in the galaxy, although weakened by the defeat of his Valkorion body, just as he was in times prior.

 

I think that would set the stage to give everyone what they want.

 

Well, except Darth Jadus, the 2nd most powerful sith next to the Emperor. We still want him back, and I could see Darth Jadus hanging back outside the galaxy's edge, content to allow the massive death toll to bring in his Epoch of Terror - if you think about it, other than Jadus himself being in control of it, the Zakuul assault on the Sith and Republic Empire achieved the same ends as Jadus's chapter 1 story indicated he wanted. I think Jadus would make for an interesting new Emperor of the Sith, seeing an opportunity and a weakened Emperor Vitiate, and deeming himself safe to return.

 

But I digress.

[jpscjpsc]

The main problem with KOTET is that they took a Massive Multiplayer game and attempted to make it Massively Singleplayer

[Storm-Cutter]

Didn't like it, TBH.

I had no connection with Revan, since I never played KoToR - so couldn't see what the big deal with him was. - Thought the multi-companion fight against Revan was a nice change thought it obviously caught some people out with the mechanics..... Though it wasn't hard to figure out really.

 

Wasn't keen on the single-story for all classes. - But that's been discussed many times over.

 

It all started to go downhill the moment we go aboard Darth Marr's ship. Everything felt too rail-roaded. Kill a few trash-mobs before watching a cutscene. - Really didn't like that. - Didn't have many choices after all - Whatever choice you made still ended up chasing through the ship only to be captured and frozen.

 

After that I felt less and less in control. - Since there are no side quests or bonus missions, it was just one long slog to the end. - And a lot of filler too - Speeder-ing through the swamp was just the start. Just to keep padding out the experience.....

 

Being frozen was a stupid move. - Replaying old content to assault star fortresses made no sense story-wise since the planets they orbited were 99% the same as they were 5 years ago. - Should be another instance where they are all under Zakuul influence if you were gonna do it right.

 

then there was the slog to get companions back. - Made little or no sense, since they hardly ( if ever) mention the struggle they've been through in the interim.

 

KotET was even worse, watching the Valkorians tear themselves apart. - Making the holy-weapon of Arcann slaying was probably the worst-chapter. If you weren't really engaged with being the chosen one that no-one knew about 5 years ago, it was just bobbins. - As a covert agent, bounty hunter smuggler or republic trooper, being told you're a special snowflake was really beyond belief. Didn't really gel with force users who were very light or dark aligned either.

 

I don't think people like being rail-roaded, or forced to do stuff by 'other people being in their heads' this especially rankled after the Agent story was all about throwing off the yoke of brainwashing to become a free individual - albeit in an oppressive regime.

 

Couple of chapters stood out - stealing the treasure with Gault and Vette was a nice change of pace- and put the smuggler types front and centre for a change. Nice to hang out with Shae Vizla too.

Seeing Theron and Lana in every other scene was really wearing. - As was being forced to use a certain companion for a certain mission - Very restrictive.

 

Overall, not scoring very high - there were a huge number of ways the game could have gone, just firefighting the conflicts between empire and republic. - We can also see where the budget went- on flashy visuals and not much actual gameplay. - repeated cutscenes get old real fast.

 

Choices matter, but we all ended up on the throne of the Eternal empire.... so a companion or two difference was all that actually mattered in the end.

 

sry to be so critical, but maybe the writing team need to re-watch the movies and spin-offs, read some of th ebooks and the Clone Wars anime to get an idea of how chapters should work. - The Anime is excellent at episodic storytelling 90% of the time - well worth a watch.

 

TLDR; couple of small highlights in otherwise poor storytelling. - spend the money on story and new content -not cutscenes and movie segments.

Edited July 6, 2017 by Storm-Cutter

[DarthSpuds]

I couldn't help but feeling I was the wrong hero. I played as my Gunslinger but in every cutscene I just wanted to be a Jedi Knight or Sith Warrior. The entire Eternal Emperor storyline just doesn't fit my class in any way. I'm a Smuggler and a Gunslinger and I've had a great adventure mostly. But almost since Shadow of Revan and especially Kotfe and Kotet I don't like the direction of how my character develops. It doesn't feel right anymore, unfortunately.

 

99% of KotFE/ET makes no sense at all from the Non-Force User point of view.

 

The chapter where we spend far too long in the wilderness of Oddessen for a "force weapon" we don't even use is even worse.

 

For IA / Trooper that should have been an "Infiltrate Military Base Steal Prototype" for Smuggler / Bounty Hunter it should have been "Recover Lost / Top Secret Technology From A Research Facility / Private Collector" type mission.

 

Trooper/IA could have used same world assets with slight differences in NPCs, so could Smuggler / Bounty Hunter. Trooper/AI could have started with Lana, Theron or Admiral Aygo. Smuggler / Bounty Hunter could have started with Hylo Viz, Theron, or Dr Oggurobb. The Chapter would have made MUCH, MUCH more sense that way; especially if it still started out with us going to speak to Valkorion, and him having his fake temper tantrum and abandoning us, at that point we'd be looking for other information resources.

 

All The Best

[casirabit]

Why solo-only? Why was the ability to play through quest dialogues removed in SoR? And for crying out loud why was group play in KOTFE > KOTET's story removed entirely? Why can't players like my wife and I have the option to level through (not just spectate) KOTFE's & KOTET's story together?

 

This was one of my major problems. I play with my boyfriend and if we went to do this we had to do it twice. Give us the opportunity to do it together (once) and let the choices be whatever we decided. If you are unsure of what someone is going to do then don't do it together. This is where knowing your partner in this endeavor would be good and not grouping up with a stranger. You could do it solo if you wanted to be sure your actions would be the one taken or you could do it together like you and your wife or me and my boyfriend and accept the outcome.

[Rion_Starkiller]

Can you imagine if all of the KOTFE and KOTET resources had gone to a new class with new class stories? sigh

[Nothing_Shines]

Can you imagine if all of the KOTFE and KOTET resources had gone to a new class with new class stories? sigh

 

Or how about they could have added a chapter 6 or 7, or whatever it got up to before KOTFE changed the labeling, with plots for all 8 characters. Just one new chapter in the style of vanilla set on one Rishi-sized planet would have been better than all of KOTFE/KOTET. Obviously not the same size as the vanilla chapters, but enough to advance personal stories after the events on Ilum, Oricon, Makeb, CZ-198, etc. Alternate something like that with the one size fits all faction plot expansions like ROTHC or even Dread Masters/CZ-198 that give flashpoints or an op.

 

Zakuul burned through so much time and resources for what amounts to zero replayable content. It's a shame.

 

I'd have paid big bucks for 16 hours (2 for each class) of tight, well-written, new class story set on any number of planets that haven't been properly expanded. Manaan. Darvanis. CZ. All these asset sets sitting around unused.

Edited July 6, 2017 by Nothing_Shines

[Jamtas]

Can you imagine if all of the KOTFE and KOTET resources had gone to a new class with new class stories? sigh

 

Might actually be worse if that was the case. what KOTFE/KOTET got wrong was ignoring all other play styles. If all those resources had just gone to a new class, that means you would lock everyone out of their mains.

[Jamtas]

Or how about they could have added a chapter 6 or 7, or whatever it got up to before KOTFE changed the labeling, with plots for all 8 characters. Just one new chapter in the style of vanilla set on one Rishi-sized planet would have been better than all of KOTFE/KOTET. Obviously not the same size as the vanilla chapters, but enough to advance personal stories after the events on Ilum, Oricon, Makeb, CZ-198, etc. Alternate something like that with the one size fits all faction plot expansions like ROTHC or even Dread Masters/CZ-198 that give flashpoints or an op.

 

Zakuul burned through so much time and resources for what amounts to zero replayable content. It's a shame.

 

I'd have paid big bucks for 16 hours (2 for each class) of tight, well-written, new class story set on any number of planets that haven't been properly expanded. Manaan. Darvanis. CZ. All these asset sets sitting around unused.

 

Agree, something as a continuation for all classes would have been nicer if they were going to do story driven only as they did.

 

I've still yet to take a second character through KOTET. Absolutely no desire to. And coming from someone who took all 16 advanced classed all the way through Ziost. And its not like the previous expansions were unique to each class (with exception of the small side quest on Rishi) but they didn't seem so divorced from the character. Throughout KOTFE/KOTET I just felt like this outlander was nothing like the character I had for the previous several years. And things like the chapter 12 Visions in the dark, which was made utterly pointless in the end of the story as the weapon we "needed" to replace our "old weapon form another time" wasn't even used while my "old weapon" is still what I use today.

 

And that's something that falls flat to me in KOTFE. That chapter could be completely removed, and make absolutely no difference. Now after Charles' explanation of having to cut story out of the plans, maybe there was more to ch 12 to make it noteworthy that we'll just never know. But the entire build up to build a new weapon which many never ended up using and the game didn't require for anything seems like a waste of time.

[Joluka]

I always knew Eric Musco's been lead writer for a while now.

[Rion_Starkiller]

Or how about they could have added a chapter 6 or 7, or whatever it got up to before KOTFE changed the labeling, with plots for all 8 characters. Just one new chapter in the style of vanilla set on one Rishi-sized planet would have been better than all of KOTFE/KOTET. Obviously not the same size as the vanilla chapters, but enough to advance personal stories after the events on Ilum, Oricon, Makeb, CZ-198, etc. Alternate something like that with the one size fits all faction plot expansions like ROTHC or even Dread Masters/CZ-198 that give flashpoints or an op.

 

Zakuul burned through so much time and resources for what amounts to zero replayable content. It's a shame.

 

I'd have paid big bucks for 16 hours (2 for each class) of tight, well-written, new class story set on any number of planets that haven't been properly expanded. Manaan. Darvanis. CZ. All these asset sets sitting around unused.

 

I agree, except for one small part. While I think the Czerka storyline could have been expanded upon (the dissolution of Czerka is a pretty cool concept), CZ-198 is a small moon whose Czerka base was for mining resources and/or secret labs. So in this case, it actually makes sense that it is small (unlike Manaan, Darvannis which would be really awesome if expanded upon).

 

Might actually be worse if that was the case. what KOTFE/KOTET got wrong was ignoring all other play styles. If all those resources had just gone to a new class, that means you would lock everyone out of their mains.

 

Wha? Who has mains? If you didn't have 20 alts before the DVL event, you certainly had them afterward.

 

EDIT: to be fair, Galactic Command forced us to go back to a "main vs alt" system if you wanted top tier gear for raiding or pvp (at least before it was fixed in 5.2).

Edited July 6, 2017 by Rion_Starkiller

[AlrikFassbauer]

I also want to coin an expression/trope. Beware of the Oggy and the Cockroaches Syndrome. Where everything and anything must grow so much out of credible proportion it becomes hilarious.

 

Which is why I rather prefer ordinary people in stories, and I'm also against BIGGER THAN LIFE because of that.

Edited July 6, 2017 by AlrikFassbauer

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Might actually be worse if that was the case. what KOTFE/KOTET got wrong was ignoring all other play styles. If all those resources had just gone to a new class, that means you would lock everyone out of their mains.

 

Which might not be a bad thing at this stage.

In saying that I mean we need to realize there won't be more class story, they just don't have the resources for it. We all want it but it's not happening.

 

So what's the next best option? Bastardizing the characters we have made so far as they did? Making stories that make little sense for many classes as they? Restricting their writing ability because they had to try make a one story fits all as they did? Or make an entire new story for a new toon which would remove all those restrictions.

 

I know it's different for this game and our brains tell us no - we must just continue following the same story we had before but maybe that's not possible ,maybe something different is needed.

 

I would be quite happy with a years worth of story dev being put into a new character story at expansion. Maybe 2 classes (1 force based, 1 weapons based) with choices both light and dark. 20 hours or so of gameplay that can stretch out to 40+ by redoing for all differing choices and those choices can indeed be meaningful as this should be an encapsulated story.

 

At this stage if they just continue trying to plod our mains along in some story sense whilst constantly writing themselves into the corners that they do then the writing and story is just going to get worse and worse. Time for a fresh start.

 

They could still add in small stuff over the year for our mains like MMO content with minimal story (Iokath and upcoming flashpoints) but I think if we had a major story to look forward to each year like the above ... it would be a cash cow for them and 40 more hours enjoyment than I got out of the entire year last year.

[Nothing_Shines]

With Czerka I'm thinking more along the lines of expanding that story to get better use out of the assets. Like maybe going back to Kashyyyk where Czerka is trying to recover some assets after abandoning their operations there. I see how CZ-198 itself is done though.

 

There are way too many plot lines and organizations that wee just abandoned in favor of completely new crap with Zakuul.

[Hell_Kaiser_Fett]

Am I the only one who was hoping for an option at the end of KotET where you could keep Valkorian, possibly trapped in the holocron of Dramath, and use his force ghost for knowledge, or even power? He would lose his influence over you trapped in the holocron, and could not use his power against you or any of your allies.

 

I guess similar to the case of the SI and the Force Ghosts you bind, or even Zash and Khem, except he's in your head, however no longer having access to your mind. He would be like your very own Cortana. I personally loved Valkorian's design and thought the VA was spot on as well.

[Eshvara]

A personal pocket emperor! I can see those who would like that, though I personally don't. It takes something away from his character.

[Rion_Starkiller]

With Czerka I'm thinking more along the lines of expanding that story to get better use out of the assets. Like maybe going back to Kashyyyk where Czerka is trying to recover some assets after abandoning their operations there. I see how CZ-198 itself is done though.

 

There are way too many plot lines and organizations that wee just abandoned in favor of completely new crap with Zakuul.

 

Exactly. Flesh out what we have and improve upon it.

 

Also, I think Kashyyyk is a great idea. They could even reuse old KOTOR resources for it, such as the planetary music.

[Hell_Kaiser_Fett]

Replace Theron and Lana with Lord Scourge and Kira and Bam! the story is so much better.

 

As someone who loved the Revan book explaining Scourge's background, this would have made SoR perfect. I also feel that it was a HUGE missed opportunity with the Nathema chapter, as Scourge has been there himself. It also could have explored/explained Kira's backstory as well. Perhaps and the other children were molded by the emperor there.