Discussion Topic: Bolster Changes in PvP

[mhobin]

The answer to this question comes from the one bioware has been asking since day 1. What do PvPers want? I can tell you why I play and what I want. I am not speaking for everyone, but I am sure a lot of people think the way I do.

 

1. Competition, I want to play fun and competitive matches. I want the adrenaline that comes from a good match. A gear gap has no impact on that.

 

2. Progression, not gear progression, but the feeling that I am improving. That may be seeing my rating go up, feel like I make a big impact on the outcome of a match or winning more duels. I want to feel like I am improving at the game.

 

3. I want to show off that I am winning more. I would be fine if rewards from PvP were cosmetic only. No gear to enter but if I win a lot I can get something cool to prove to everyone that my lightsaber is bigger then yours.

 

I have played since launch, and I have never seen gear as more then something I need, to do what I like in game. I get the sense of accomplishment on the green leaderboard at the end of a match. So if gear had no impact on PvP I would be fine. But give me cool rewards for winning. Have wins in regs and ranked give CXP and win tokens that can be used on a cosmetic vendor to buy cool stuff.

[Romeugues]

Anyway with 242 bolster reps which are mainly in 230-240 gear have more chances to win 248 imps than of bolster would be 238 don't you think? Because with 238 bolster reps with 230-240 gear have even less chances... much less.

The difference in skill between the average Imp and Pub player far exceeds that of any gear differences.

Gear improve your dps/hps of course but if you don't know what the heck you're doing it's not going to help that much.

I can actually prove that point by logging into one of my few level 70 pub chars and in either 208 or 230 gear achieve top dps for my team by a not insignificant margin in a class I'm not great at.

[Deewe]

it is our design intent that players in all gameplay have some form of gear progression

 

Do you really want to say you will enjoy to PVP all day-every day without any kinda of gear proggresion? How long will you find that fun? If all will be equal you will then find other things you dont like, for example more class balance, more maps, changing way resolve works etc etc

 

By having to grind gear you are busy with playing the game, not complaining about stuff.

Hi Eric,

 

Guess you're answering to the above player though your design strategy is flawed.

 

You don't keep PvP players happy because they are having fun gearing up (grinding.) They aren't.

 

As a competitive person, all I ask is for new players to be on the same playing field. I think everyone should just be bolstered to t4 period (to make stat progression irrelevant in PvP) or keep it the way it is and cut gear progression by half (remove 2 tiers).

PvP fun is all about skill, coordination, situations, momentum.

 

Look at every one of the most successful PvP games and you'll notice it's about skill: Counter Strike, BF, OverWatch, Starcraft.

 

Also if you guys really want to make PvP better, truly reduce the STUNS and separate PvP and PvE skills.

 

BTW you can have gear procession though it has to be in terms of look, not stats.

[Chelz]

Why is this so hard for you guys (devs) to understand? Player's that pvp do not want to go through any gear grind to pvp. Again, they do not want to gear up in any way to do what they do. You are losing subs because you can't grasp this simple concept. Take the gear out of the equation and increase the bolster to 250 and leave it at that. I apologize if I was short, but this has been told to you guys 1000's of times and you are not listening.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

This meant that gear was irrelevant in PvP as Bolster made an equal playing field.

 

Which was great and happily accepted. People loved being able to just pick up PVP and know they weren't at some sort of gearing disadvantage due to having spent less time on a gearing treadmill or possibly made some poor choices with their min/max (believe it or not some people still believe mixing DPS/Tank stats is a good build and for right or wrong point is you want to avoid driving anyone away).

 

However, it is our design intent that players in all gameplay have some form of gear progression .

 

You need to re-address this concept. The most successful PVP games (think LoL, CoD, Dota, Overwatch etc. ) have very little in the way of anything that gives a major advantage of one gear type vs another.

This sort of PVP design is popular because it's pick up and play and you know you aren't seriously handicapped simply because of gearing progression or choices.

 

If you want gear progression make it cosmetic as those games do. Have pure PVP Cartel Market sets that are direct buy or can be earned through PVP currency albeit a lot more grinding involved to get it. Thus you encourage people to PVP to get cash items or spend money they wouldn't currently be spending.

Gear progression as you have it now has nothing that requires people to spend money and only serves to drive people away from PVP.

Very few if any people are going to stop playing PVP if it didn't have a gear grind (we've had this discussion many times over the year on the forums/reddit and almost always the large majority are in favor of doing away with gear grind but would want something else to aim/grind for i.e. cosmetics/decos etc.) yet many people (myself included) won't bother with PVP because you do have a gear grind.

 

Once those people get bored then of your other content what reason is there to sub? At least making PVP more accessible would give people more reason to sub when they get bored of PVE (and introducing a vanity system that is pay/grind means more money coming in).

 

In short - what you do now drives more people away than it attracts - It is losing you money. I'm sure someone there probably thinks "but this is how PVP is in MMOs" but that doesn't mean it has to be, make a positive change and get away from PVP gearing and you'll see an uptick in participation like we did when bolster was to 250.

 

It's not much of a discussion topic when you present 3 options that are all equally crappy and don't actually do much to improve the inherent problem, hopefully someone from BWA will acknowledge they are open to looking beyond those 3 options you gave otherwise this topic could seem a complete waste of time to anyone who hates the PVP gear progression concept.

[TW-Cool]

I will vote for 240. I am pretty sure bolster in 4.x was very similar. The max PVP gear was 208 and it bolstered lower gear up to around 200ish. I also found it interesting how it punished PVE people in their 220s/224s.

 

I do both PVE and PVP, so I'm not as deeply effected by the slow gearing system. I have a 246/248 gear set for two different advanced classes. I even have alternate MHs and OHs for them to wear when they go into PVP, so they have less accuracy (as it used to be with PVP gear). I then pass down my extra 246 mods/enhancements to alts. Not the preferred way to gear up alts if I want to PVP with them... but it works to a point. When they make UC legacy, I'll be more happy.

 

However, I'd rather see Expertise return to gear in some form or another instead. It was much easier to gear up alts. I'm not really sure why you removed it from the game and yet let all of the GSF superstars keep their super upgraded ships. I have no motivation to queue for GSF since it has no bolster at all. So, maybe you could add bolster to GSF while you are thinking about for ground PVP.

[Rion_Starkiller]

Reiterate: Make bolster high (at least 242), and add special 248 PvP set bonus gear that you can only buy with unassembled comps (additionally, it might drop from NiM bosses). This set bonus would be different from the general pve set bonuses.

 

Solves two issues: NiM raiders and pvp'ers

Edited June 29, 2017 by Rion_Starkiller

[Stellarcrusade]

The difference in skill between the average Imp and Pub player far exceeds that of any gear differences.

Gear improve your dps/hps of course but if you don't know what the heck you're doing it's not going to help that much.

I can actually prove that point by logging into one of my few level 70 pub chars and in either 208 or 230 gear achieve top dps for my team by a not insignificant margin in a class I'm not great at.

 

Do you know why the average pub is not as skilled (or in some cases not as smart?). Its because all smart and skilled players left to play imp side once the win rate dropped to like 2% on pub side. So rather than pointing out the obvious, offer a solution to bring more players back to pub side, and increase the new-player participation on the pub side also. There have only been a couple good solutions to this offered.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

LOL exactly, I have an idea, why don't BW get rid of the whole gearing system, no gears any more everybody is same stats, all we can change is our appearances (just like league of legends) we can do whatever we want without worrying about grindings and gears, WOULDN'T THAT BE GREAT?

 

Yes, it would. I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic or not but if you were ... fail heh.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Gearing is easy, I have 4 toons with full 248s and i already have tokens ready with components to gear 2 toons based on the class that will be buffed and i play 12 hours per week!

 

I have none even close and any other returning player will be in the same boat. Seeing that gap makes me want to PVP even less so not sure what you're trying to achieve unless it's you want less people playing PVP perhaps?

 

I imagine any dedicated PVP player who enjoys games Mobas and gave up the game and now thinking of returning looks at the gear grind required to do so and be equally competitive and thinks "nah, pass - there's tons of better games out there" especially considering this game wants them to PAY every month for the privilege ... pass.

[DanNV]

Eric,

 

Why is it we keep getting given options to pick from that all stink and don't reflect what BW's paying customers are saying? None of your options cut it. Not one of them.

 

For PVP to be entertaining in the slightest, it needs to be a level playing field. This

...it is our design intent that players in all gameplay have some form of gear progression and so in Game Update 5.1 we lowered the effect of Bolster in PvP to 232. To compensate for the launch of Tier 4 gear we increased Bolsters effect in PvP to item rating 238.

is part of what has been the problem with PVP from day one and BW still doesn't get it. Getting steam rolled because you have less gear than the other team is not fun and makes people quit. I personally HATE PVP. And the quote above is a good bit of why. (The community attitude is the rest of it.) The only time in the entire game when PVP hasn't been a chore was when everything was level. Skill is what mattered not gear. I have no idea what the dev team doesn't understand about this, but I exepct as long as it continues PVP is going to be a very small community. And as long as you keep nerfing classes because the PVP community gripes and complains and we get steam rolled because we don't have gear to keep up with the "pros" the rest of us are going to continue hating PVP. Edited June 29, 2017 by DanNV

[MeNaCe-NZ]

It's about making PvP easy for anyone to play. Right now, it's not. The gear gap is utterly ridiculous. The only people being hurt are the hardcore PvPers as more and more casuals and alts drop out of the pool.

 

Pretty much and with how utterly devastated the player base numbers have been in recent times they should be doing anything possible to bring people back or encourage new players/casual players to stick around.

 

Any sort of stat disparity drives people away, not brings them in. There are FAR better things to put in front of people to grind for that don't require a stat disparity.

 

Other games that are PURE PVP are far more successful than this game so it seems ludicrous that this game isn't trying to at least try mirror those games in it's take of PVP just to get some boost in player numbers from PVP.

 

Old school "MMO" thinking is what is hurting MMO populations.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

The answer to this question comes from the one bioware has been asking since day 1. What do PvPers want? I can tell you why I play and what I want. I am not speaking for everyone, but I am sure a lot of people think the way I do.

 

1. Competition, I want to play fun and competitive matches. I want the adrenaline that comes from a good match. A gear gap has no impact on that.

 

2. Progression, not gear progression, but the feeling that I am improving. That may be seeing my rating go up, feel like I make a big impact on the outcome of a match or winning more duels. I want to feel like I am improving at the game.

 

3. I want to show off that I am winning more. I would be fine if rewards from PvP were cosmetic only. No gear to enter but if I win a lot I can get something cool to prove to everyone that my lightsaber is bigger then yours.

 

I have played since launch, and I have never seen gear as more then something I need, to do what I like in game. I get the sense of accomplishment on the green leaderboard at the end of a match. So if gear had no impact on PvP I would be fine. But give me cool rewards for winning. Have wins in regs and ranked give CXP and win tokens that can be used on a cosmetic vendor to buy cool stuff.

 

This would motivate me to play PVP more too if I knew I didn't have to gear to be competitive. I can't stand to think I get disadvantaged because I have a job and family and can only play an hour or two a day.

Not only am I skill disadvantaged from less time to "git gud" but stat wise too making it harder for me to "git gud" in the first place.

[royren]

In order to make bolster to 248 like here want, they need to change to gearing system.

 

What's the point of gearing if you are already 248 with bolster ? The entire gearing would become useless and irrelevant.

 

And of course there is the matter of those who are now 248 and went through the hell of gearing, myself included.

 

I may sound selfish but I don't really like idea of everyone getting 248 bolster. There has to be some amount of gap between gears.

 

240 or 242 bolster levels would be acceptable. but NOT 248. You should work for that.

 

exactly, this is MMORPG you are suppose to work hard for your gear and be rewarded when playing, that's the idea.

some people say it's about skill not gear, then shall we all have 250 bolster for Vet / Master mode OPS / FPs as well? I think skills / mechs are more important than gears, this way we can all on the same point and everybody have a chance to try master mode contents.

but if we have all these bolsters, it all comes to a simple question, why do we still need gears at all?

[Ravenschild]

Set Bolster to 242. This would still reward people in Tier 4 but keep it within 6 (technically 4 since the fourth tier blue 244 gear has the same stats as the third tier gold 242 gear) which then focuses on skill more than gear.

[royren]

Why is this so hard for you guys (devs) to understand? Player's that pvp do not want to go through any gear grind to pvp. Again, they do not want to gear up in any way to do what they do. You are losing subs because you can't grasp this simple concept. Take the gear out of the equation and increase the bolster to 250 and leave it at that. I apologize if I was short, but this has been told to you guys 1000's of times and you are not listening.

 

I think it's not BW is not getting it, sounds like you are playing the wrong game, there is NO MMORPG game that doesn't require player to go through gear grinding for any activity.

if you want PVP content without gear grinding, simply go play League of Legend or Heroes of the Storm?

Edited June 29, 2017 by royren

[MeNaCe-NZ]

exactly, this is MMORPG you are suppose to work hard for your gear and be rewarded when playing, that's the idea.

 

Nothing says it has to be stat based gear does it? This sort of "head buried in the sand" thinking of "it's an MMO so it MUST be this way" is why this game has been bleeding players for so long.

 

Other games have catered to change and innovation and I'm sure the people who used to play this game and have fun are now off playing those games and having fun.

 

 

some people say it's about skill not gear, then shall we all have 250 bolster for Vet / Master mode OPS / FPs as well?

 

Not sure if you noticed but PVE and PVP are completely different.

PVE is far less skill based in the long run as once you and your group get the basics down of pattern recognition, mechanics etc. you can readily beat the same content over and over. It needs the gear grind to effectively stretch out the play time people can get from the content before it gets truly stale.

 

In saying that WE don't need it as much as BWA needs it for us to stay interested so ideally I wouldn't be entirely opposed to a bolster in place there at all ...

 

PVP on the other hand always is a learning process, it's never exactly the same. You will always have different events and situations to adapt for and if you can make it attractive to bring in more and more people the amount of time it feels fresh gets even longer because you are always getting a variety of different opponents. Having a gear grind here just ruins it for many people who just want to jump straight into the skill based learning and knowing they are adapting because of something they did wrong and not simply because "he had more stats".

 

Another perk to no PVP gearing ... you can easily select different roles without having to worry about different gear sets/ You could make that new 65 and level to 70 on a different class/role you've never done and start learning it fresh without having to worry about yet another gear grind ...

 

Wow that sound super attractive to me and just thinking about it would have me probably buying up a few new character tokens once I "mastered" or got tired of my current class.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I think it's not BW is not getting it, it is you are playing the wrong game, there is NO MMORPG game that doesn't require player to go through gear grinding for any activity.

if you want PVP content without gear grinding, simply go play League of Legend or Heroes of the Storm?

 

He's playing the wrong game? You are implying people should leave and play something else instead of improving this game to attract people to this game or keep them around?

 

Wow, your opinion seems set on killing the game.

[GrandLordMenace]

I would like to state that this game is mostly unique in it's fixation with gear in PVP. Most games don't really have gear progression at all in PvP, as it makes the PvP more accessible and imho balanced.

 

If a geargrind is needed, cause you want to keep the gear ladder, a 242 or 246 bolster would be best.

 

To be brutally honest, I hated expertise. I hated having two sets of gear that I needed to lug around in order to do OW pvp, I hated all of it. I do like that expertise is gone, as I enjoy PvP and PvE and swapping between them constantly was highly irritating.

 

However, having such a long gear grind in PvP is ludicrous right now, it's PvP. Several other major MMOs do not factor gear into PvP, you pick a few gear presets and/or stat allocations. I'm pretty sure pvp gear doesn't exist in WoW, or at least doesn't affect your stats more than 1% in an actual battleground. Guild Wars 2 lets you choose runes and stat allocations, and has separate PvP balanced versions of all the classes, but you can work towards getting your PvE gear with different reward tracks, and get special skins. Same with Blade and Soul. Not sure about Final Fantasy.

 

Just remove gear entirely from PvP, or make the bolster bolster to a higher available gear tier. It can still reward gear, but the "gear grind" becomes a nonissue. Give cosmetic rewards and extra gear to PvPers, special titles (cheap!) and decorations, whathaveyou. If the golden era of PvP was where people geared out near instantly, why even have gear at all? Wouldn't it be better for everyone if gear was essentially meaningless for PvP? Ranked would be way better, no idiots who run it without augments or in 230s against people in 248s.

[tavrinDosa]

in a casual "gear matters" game with no skill based matchmaking. If I have put in the work to grind the gear and learn my class to the point where i am in the top 35% of players, then i should be able to go into a non ranked warzone and wreck face, plain and simple.

 

The problem is the speed in which casual players can grind out a full set of 248's to stand a chance is abysmally slow, and takes much longer to grind out than if i put together a ops team and strategically went through every Vet/MM op in the game for my gear. The issue with that is I or anyone shouldn't have to be made to PVE in order to stand a chance in PVP. So, have the currency system in PVP match the time for PVE. This could be done by taking away a tier vendor and just having 2,3,4 instead of 1,2,3,4. ie have tier 3 gear cost unassembled components only and then work to 4

 

TLDR

This game isn't "competitive" and should never be, It's an RPG and even PVP should have gear progression. Reduce the amount of time needed to grind out gear in PVP to match PVE. Take away a tier of gear vendor (2,3,4 instead of 1,2,3,4)

Edited June 29, 2017 by tavrinDosa

[GrandLordMenace]

I think it's not BW is not getting it, sounds like you are playing the wrong game, there is NO MMORPG game that doesn't require player to go through gear grinding for any activity.

if you want PVP content without gear grinding, simply go play League of Legend or Heroes of the Storm?

 

Guild Wars 2 doesn't have a gear grind for PvP. WoW's PvP gear grind is minimal, if memory serves. They also balance PvP separately.

Edited June 29, 2017 by GrandLordMenace

[royren]

He's playing the wrong game? You are implying people should leave and play something else instead of improving this game to attract people to this game or keep them around?

 

Wow, your opinion seems set on killing the game.

 

that's just my opinion on his words, how's that killing the game.

ppl are free to do whatever they want, I don't think my opinion here will make tiny effect on anybody want to leave the game or stick around.

BW can set bolster to 250 or 0, I am still gonna play it.

[tavrinDosa]

It's just bizarre to me that in 4.0 you spent all of this time making us happy by making it easier to gear up only to make it abysmal in 5.0 and ruining it. Edited June 29, 2017 by tavrinDosa

[MakArdross]

Lower or Remove the bolster

 

We spent a ton of time and effort to gear up and have the best advantage over other players but instead you bolster them so high that they don't even need gear to compete. We pvpers in all min-maxed 248s worked hard and earned our gear. Your bolster and tiered geared are contradicting too. Why even have tiers of gear if your just going to bolster as high as you do?

[royren]

I mean BW come up with this bolster idea is already making it easier for new players / alts , isn't that already enough for you?

ppl who suggesting all of us get 250 bolster sounds like they are trying to make PVP content to a completely separate game? gears doesnt matter anymore ? doesn't it sound like MOBA game?

bolster is ok but not everyone bolster up to 250, there should be gear difference