Discussion Topic: Bolster Changes in PvP

[teclado]

This is kind of devolving into bickering by a few individuals. You guys have said your bit. Some heavy-handed moderation would make it easier for the devs to read actual feedback, not just bickering. It's not like if you "win" your argument, the devs are going to do what you want.

 

Just sayin'.

[Talon_strikes]

As a pvper I don't dislike the current gear system. I hated what it was like at the start of 5.0 but now it's reached a point where anyone who puts in even a little bit of effort can easily gear up multiple toons.

LOL you kidding right? The gear grind for PvP'ers is still absolutely painful. As a PvP'er I shouldn't have to do PvE to make the grind less painful. This new method of gearing is also the direct antithesis of their vision for gear progression during the 3.0 days.

 

Hai there, Joe. I'm a PvPer. I infrequently run Uprisings for crates, but I only PvP. Got quite a name for it in the community I interact with.

 

I think there should be some form of gear progression in PvP.

 

How do you like them apples?

 

This idea that only PvEers want progression in PvP is nonsensical; just because some of us don't agree with your perspective doesn't mean we're not PvPers. You constantly banging on about how we aren't because we don't agree with you? That stinks of arrogant self-interest.

That comment was made in general. It's just that I know that PvE'ers for some reason love to interject with their criticisms on a topic they really have no knowledge of.

 

Personally, I don't mind a gear progression myself. However, the way it's been handled since 5.0 has been disgraceful. Keith really needs to remove RNG gearing and rework it to make it for solo players only. PvE gearing has improved but more needs to be done especially for those who only PvP.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Talon_strikes

[Transcendent]

Sadly, the inclusion of LoL and DotA in that post is flawed; the gear progression for both is contained in the meta for each match. You progress in matches, rather than overall. Make a mistake, lose the game. The only difference is that the progression doesn't carry over to the next match.

 

Overwatch and CoD are FPS games. Different beasts entirely.

 

So here is the thing. I personally as a PvP player enjoy matches that are more balanced by removing the gear factor. You can argue about the "type of game" such as FPS / Moba as much as you like, and even contend that a Moba has a meta within each match due to the hero chosen and abilities chosen while levelling during the match.

 

So comparing it to MMO PvP can't be right on those points? They can't be fun either? The point being made, which I personally think also applies in an MMO PvP (different classes / different utilities chosen or available from the very start is a fair comparison to make here....), the point you seem to miss is that removing the actual gear factor makes for more interesting matches. You don't actually need to award gear in the game mode and focus solely on cosmetic items for rewards (also something that can be monetised and something BioWare already has the capability to produce as well as sell), the point is to have fun playing without massive gear disparities.

 

Trying to argue about the type of game it is? Grasping at straws. Games are meant to be fun, the PvP in SWTOR as it currently is, is an effort in frustration and futility due to gearing issues.

[Akushii]

Hi guys,

 

If you are one of the PVPers that feels that they are being forced to play game modes that they don't want to, I would ask you to think about why you feel that way. PVP is one of the better CXP payouts so you rank up and get the gear quicker than doing many other things. PVP and GSF are the only ways to get the Unassembled Components, which allow you to PICK YOUR SPECIFIC GEAR on top of the random drops from crates. I find myself being pushed more to playing PVP just to gear up specific parts than being pushed away from it!

 

A few observation from someone who enjoys both PvE and PvP. Lets assume that you start of with a full 230 set of gear. Now if you want to progress through gear and are on your path to 242/248 gear, what's the fastest path? In my experience, I can run a easy HM Operation (EV or KP), which takes roughly 1-1.5 hour and come out with at least one 242 gear (usually) along with 5-8 crates, depending on my current command level. Within that same time 1-1.5 hour, I can probably run somewhere between 4-6 warzone matches (7 at most) with all the waiting in between. No way am I going to walk away with enough components to upgrade from 230-> 242 along with 5-8 crates. Even if I win all my 6-7 matches, I walk away with 56 + 12 from daily for a total of 68ish components. Which won't get me to upgrade even one item from 230->236. In the same time I would probably only earn 4-5 crates at most.

 

Since I do both Progression OPs and PvP, I find the best way to gear is to get 242 gear from Operations and than use components to upgrade from 242->248 when necessary. Now, I don't mind this because I enjoy both. However, I can see how someone who only enjoys PvP will not enjoy this. I can probably get 3-5 toons geared by the time someone who is doing ONLY PvP manages to get 1 toon geared. Note that someone who only enjoys PvE doesn't have to step into PvP to get any advantage.

 

To me, spending components on anything that is not a 242->248 upgrade is a waste of components.

 

PS: My overall thought on this topic is to take bolster as high as possible (242 as the devs suggested or 250 if possible). I PvP for fun and strategies primarily. Gearing is a supplementary/drag to get on even footing.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Akushii

[ChadSkywalkur]

There is a difference in the gear and that makes it tough against some opponents, but thats where you learn new styles of play to better perform against them, just the same as in pve. You have trouble with an ops boss, for example, you experiment with different tactics until you find what works. but this also leaves the feeling of having something to aim for with building up your character. Without that people would get bored quickly

 

I too rarely post here, but your argument is fundamentally flawed. In four years, the time I have done the most pvp was 4.x after getting full pvp gear. Because gear is not a motivation to do pvp. No one enjoys being at a gear disadvantage in pvp, so clearly they don't grind through it for the fun of it (which a game is supposed to be). They do it because they want to be able to pvp. And if they want to pvp then they don't need a carrot on the stick leading them to do it, especially one that hits them in the face as they go along...

 

If being on the wrong end of a gear gap was my reason to play, I would just stop.

 

I do see where you're coming from though, I wouldn't mind needing to gear up for pvp, provided it doesn't take so long, instead of 248 bolster handing it to you from the start. And the problem with any bolster rating lower than that, be it 238, 240, or 242, is it still provides a gear gap that players will want to overcome, (But again, this is a negative motivator, instead of positive encouragement such as cosmetic rewards) but can't make any progress on until reaching tier 3 or 4. Making each and every of the hundreds of GC levels before that feel useless and wasted, when there should be an immediate sense of progress if the idea is to keep the players engaged.

 

I also do pve though, so I would gear up anyway. Making 248 bolster the second best option to a shorter gear progression.

 

By the way Bioware, the reason I didn't bother to post in this topic sooner is because there is almost no difference with the three options presented and none of them fix the problem. Making it look like you're having a positive discussion about improving the game while actually doing nothing.

[Foambreaker]

LOL you kidding right? The gear grind for PvP'ers is still absolutely painful. As a PvP'er I shouldn't have to do PvE to make the grind less painful. This new method of gearing is also the direct antithesis of their vision for gear progression during the 3.0 days.

 

...

 

There is no PvP Gear Progression, they took that out. That was when we had 2x tiers of Expertise gear.

 

Now we are being forced to do the PvE Gear Progression or forever be second class stat wise.

 

Plus, since we got a "one size fits all" Gear Progression, they have lost the ability to make class adjustments for PvP and PvE separately, which in part has led us to the so called balance changes they are making.

 

My first choice would be to return to two separate Gear Progressions.

 

It worked for everyone except a few who wanted to cross progressions with their gear, people who wanted to get credit for the PvP Progression AND the PvE Progression after having done only one of them.

 

But since they won't return to two separate Gear Progressions, the next best thing is to take gear out of the equation with bolster.

 

If they made Bolster be per Class, they could even make limited balance adjustments without nerfing everyone.

[Stellarcrusade]

Even the idea of getting one toon to 300 is abysmal to my thought process but that's cool for you because I just miss out on gear and get a disadvantage at PVP. As a result I just don't PVP. All good though only 1 less person who you don't have helping the PVP part of the game ticking over ... though I wonder how many others just don't PVP, I wonder how many others just plain left the game ...

 

That's the funny thing with MMO content - you actually need other people to play with remember.

 

You are not alone. Many people who crave real level-playing-field PvP have elected like myself to avoid 70 PvP until full BiS. Your point that the current system discourages various different types of players from using PvP is valid. The problem might be hard for BW to see though because the system also artificially inflates populations temporarily with people trying to gear up with no intention of ever seriously playing PvP. Thats a double-whammy of sorts, we lose quality serious players and gain a bunch of froot-loops. The kicker is, when many veterans leave and the froot-loops are done with PvP gearing we will see very low populations in PvP and BW will think its a new problem instead of something developing for a year.

[Foambreaker]

You are not alone. Many people who crave real level-playing-field PvP have elected like myself to avoid 70 PvP until full BiS. Your point that the current system discourages various different types of players from using PvP is valid. The problem might be hard for BW to see though because the system also artificially inflates populations temporarily with people trying to gear up with no intention of ever seriously playing PvP. Thats a double-whammy of sorts, we lose quality serious players and gain a bunch of froot-loops. The kicker is, when many veterans leave and the froot-loops are done with PvP gearing we will see very low populations in PvP and BW will think its a new problem instead of something developing for a year.

 

This almost identical to the alt issue, people who 7 alts all in the 30-100 command level range used to make up a large percentage of the PvP crowd because you could gear an alt in 1st tier (non-ranked) expertise gear in a week or two.

 

Of course Alt unfriendly is the theme in CXP land.

[Stellarcrusade]

2. Tired of hearing from crappy players that it is due to their gear - news flash 99 out of 100 that isn't the reason

 

I hate to do it, but: In the defense of crappy players, maybe if they didn't have bad-skills plus gear-disadvantage they'd be able to compete better or at least stop crying. So the crappy players DO have a point. And frankly if it was just skill versus skill they wouldn't have anything to blame and would be forced to examine the possibility of improving themselves.

[dracmor]

My two cents, just my opinion, directed at Bioware and no one else:

1. Adjusting bolster does nothing for gear grind (especially if you only pvp) and will only make pvp marginally better. Fixing/changing ability bloat, stuns/resolve, matchmaking, and map defects/exploits are the real keys to making pvp fun and competitive.
   
2. If the three options that you presented are the only options, go with #3 and bolster to 242. This is the best illusion of making pvp better and will probably please the majority.
   
3. My real suggestion: raise bolster to 248/250 but also remove gear progression from pvp.
   1. 
      
   2. Keep credits the same.
      
   3. Remove UCs from WZs. Ideally they would just be removed from the game but since the cat is out of the bag I would move them to operation and/or FP bosses.
      
   4. Lower cxp rewarded per match by 30 - 50% - remember, pvp should not be seen as a way to progress in gear. This is just a minor enticement/bonus to PVE'ers who do pvp.
      
   5. Add in a new commendation that will allow you to purchase tier 3 ranked awards. Make the rewards low and/or cost high to introduce a grind. Put a vendor on fleet with tier 3 rewards from all seasons.
      
   6. Pvp'ers will now pvp for the sake of pvp or grinding tier 3 rewards. PVE'ers will pvp for the same plus possibly for conquest or to fill in idle time.
      

Thanks for listening.

[Foambreaker]

My two cents, just my opinion, directed at Bioware and no one else:

1. Adjusting bolster does nothing for gear grind (especially if you only pvp) and will only make pvp marginally better. Fixing/changing ability bloat, stuns/resolve, matchmaking, and map defects/exploits are the real keys to making pvp fun and competitive.
   
2. If the three options that you presented are the only options, go with #3 and bolster to 242. This is the best illusion of making pvp better and will probably please the majority.
   
3. My real suggestion: raise bolster to 248/250 but also remove gear progression from pvp.
   1. 
      
   2. Keep credits the same.
      
   3. Remove UCs from WZs. Ideally they would just be removed from the game but since the cat is out of the bag I would move them to operation and/or FP bosses.
      
   4. Lower cxp rewarded per match by 30 - 50% - remember, pvp should not be seen as a way to progress in gear. This is just a minor enticement/bonus to PVE'ers who do pvp.
      
   5. Add in a new commendation that will allow you to purchase tier 3 ranked awards. Make the rewards low and/or cost high to introduce a grind. Put a vendor on fleet with tier 3 rewards from all seasons.
      
   6. Pvp'ers will now pvp for the sake of pvp or grinding tier 3 rewards. PVE'ers will pvp for the same plus possibly for conquest or to fill in idle time.
      

Thanks for listening.

 

They already removed the PvP Gear Progression when they removed Expertise Gear.

[Talon_strikes]

There is no PvP Gear Progression, they took that out. That was when we had 2x tiers of Expertise gear.

 

Now we are being forced to do the PvE Gear Progression or forever be second class stat wise.

 

Plus, since we got a "one size fits all" Gear Progression, they have lost the ability to make class adjustments for PvP and PvE separately, which in part has led us to the so called balance changes they are making.

 

My first choice would be to return to two separate Gear Progressions.

 

It worked for everyone except a few who wanted to cross progressions with their gear, people who wanted to get credit for the PvP Progression AND the PvE Progression after having done only one of them.

 

But since they won't return to two separate Gear Progressions, the next best thing is to take gear out of the equation with bolster.

 

If they made Bolster be per Class, they could even make limited balance adjustments without nerfing everyone.

Oh I'm aware of this. The only ones who hated Expertise were PvE'ers, and if the devs are intent on having PvP having a gear progression as well then bring back Expertise.

 

The devs really need to stop making changes to PvP to appease the PvE'ers who rarely play PvP anyway.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Talon_strikes

[teclado]

The devs really need to stop making changes to PvP to appease the PvE'ers who rarely play PvP anyway.

Preach it! This can all be fixed by giving us back PvP gear. Just don't penalize high end PvE gear with such a ludicrous expertise nerf like you did before and people will be fine with it.

 

I know that this would not be an immediate fix - sucks to be those who ground out full 248, to suddenly be told that they put in all that work just to be no longer BiS in PvP. Clearly there would have to be some transition period. But like I said, don't have bolster nuke 248 (high end PvE gear) so badly and it will be fine. Maybe have a transition period in which Warzone Comms come back so that people can start earning them, then bring out the PvP gear at a later date.

 

I also really like what dracmor had to say. I'd be fine with his solution or with bringing back expertise gear. I would grind warzones for neat rewards. Doing nothing other than raising the bolster cap makes me go "eh...ok, but that doesn't really solve anything."

[Stellarcrusade]

Since much of this thread is sort of a list of votes for a multiple choice presented to us, I'm curious how many people who have not chosen the highest bolster option would change their votes if there was a gear-wipe coming with the changes? Meaning, are we considering new players (those who will have to start from scratch, no legacy character handing down gear).

 

I think it would be funny how many would change their vote.

Question should be:

If we do not do a gear wipe choose between options 1, 2 and 3. And also if we DO have a gear wipe choose between options 1, 2 and 3.

[DsevenO]

CXP was an attempt by Bioware to make end-game activities more accessible to everyone. However it is my opinion that they ended up making it even worse for the dedicated/end-game players. This change has also resulted in some worrying gear gaps that should never have existed in a modern day PVP scenario.

 

First off, your options DO NOT FIX THE GEAR GAP! It still takes a ridiculous amount of time to achieve 248 gear through PVP. This is not a good fix.

Main Points –

 

Current PVP Gearing Speed : Gearing up trough purely PVPing takes too long. I could spend 20 hours farming master mode chapter one and be better geared than a guy farming PVP for 60 hours.

 

Gear Gap / Time Spent : Even if you did increase bolster to something like 242, it would still take too long for someone to reach 248 gear. Increasing bolster without adding PVP gear does not solve the issue, it is merely a band aid fix the will come back to bite you later on.

 

Character Progression : Character progression is a very important part of any RPG. Without some form of character progression the player will feel like they have not accomplished anything. This is why having PVP gear is somewhat important. Maxing out bolster to 250 may be a temporary fix, however the player needs to feel that their character has improved. Adding a tiny power increase such as an additional 3% would help with character progression. Please note that this 3% increase should be easily obtainable in around 2 days of PVPing.

Character / Inventory Management: A lot of people seem to forget that they are playing an RPG. Having to manage you character is not a bad thing, in fact it is a selling point for most games. An extra gear set in your inventory isn’t the end of the world. At a certain point QOL changes stop being QOL changes, instead they just stomp on basic concepts of the game.

 

Catering To The Wrong People : You are currently trying to get people who do not PVP to PVP. I agree that playing other game activities should be encouraged, however scrapping certain aspects of the game for these people is not the way to do it.

 

So what is my suggestion?

 

Temporarily increase bolster to 250 item level until bolster has been adjusted for the re-introduction of PVP gear.

 

Then bring back easy to acquire PVP gear (4.0 gearing speed) and significantly increase bolster to be somewhere around 3% less stats than an augmented set of tier 1 PVP gear. No matter what item level you have, be it 230 or 248 you will be bolstered to 3% below PVP tier 1.

 

This change would allow PVEers and casuals to hop in without having to worry about gear while also rewarding PVPers in a meaningful and time appropriate way.

 

---------------------------------------------------

 

I'll say this again one last time : Getting to 248 from scratch takes too long - This does not work well in PVP.

 

i would also like to direct you to your very own post regarding PVP gearing speed from a few years ago : http://www.swtor.com/blog/pvp-economy-and-ranked-rewards-restructure-game-update-3.3

 

This covers it all. Pvp gear should never have been removed. It wasn't broken, but for some inexplicable reason you decided to "fix" it.

[indelible]

You are not alone. Many people who crave real level-playing-field PvP have elected like myself to avoid 70 PvP until full BiS. Your point that the current system discourages various different types of players from using PvP is valid. The problem might be hard for BW to see though because the system also artificially inflates populations temporarily with people trying to gear up with no intention of ever seriously playing PvP. Thats a double-whammy of sorts, we lose quality serious players and gain a bunch of froot-loops. The kicker is, when many veterans leave and the froot-loops are done with PvP gearing we will see very low populations in PvP and BW will think its a new problem instead of something developing for a year.

 

People have been saying this since the dawn of SWTOR back in 2012; it's never happened, and it will never happen.

[Alssaran]

This covers it all. Pvp gear should never have been removed.

 

I was one of the most ardent proposers of at least giving mixed gear a chance to make it more likely for PvE players to immediately jump into PvP. Not knowing that Bioware would take this as a basic "let's completely re-work how gear is acquired and make it a tideously long and uninspired grind that heavily favours PvE over PvP." was probably my optimism.

 

And with that in mind: The experiment has failed. Fundamentaly. I was wrong, it's a terrible idea to try the "one gear set" approach with this game. At least if the decision is between long-a** grinds or accessible PvP.

 

If the choice is between expertise mattering in both warzones and open PvP zones, and at the same time having said lower-tier gear for PvP, or having one set of 248 gear that is tideous to get by, I'll take the first one now. Thank you very much.

 

And people will notice I said "tideous" instead of "hard grind." That's what it is: a tideous grind. It doesn't require skill or knowledge. It doesn't really require you to master your class to get BiS gear. It just requires mindless grinds. And for good or worse, that is not a great gearing system.

 

As a pvper I don't dislike the current gear system. I hated what it was like at the start of 5.0 but now it's reached a point where anyone who puts in even a little bit of effort can easily gear up multiple toons.

 

Gearing a character and an alt takes a little bit more than "a little bit effort" when you do PvP to gear up. Remember that for each alt, you have to progress through all tiers to buy the most expensive and best item set there is. If you only want to gear by doing PvP, which should be reasonable for a PvP player and for PvP environments, you'll have to grind through three layers of gear for each alt you want to gear up.

 

Gearing up multiple alts is easy when you want to trick the system and do HM ops to get to 242 easily, but a little bit of effort is an understatement.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Alssaran

[Lahandra]

A guild that is going to ensure you and only you get all the gear you need? Generous.

 

Yep..... and if by some chance you haven't already geared at least one toon, most guilds do this quite regularly for under-geared players. Or maybe, just maybe, you get a few PVP'ers together and do it as well......smh

 

As for paying - have you seen the prices? The grind for credits for many average players is just as bad as grinding for the gear itself. Don't pretend credits are some magic currency that just spurts up by the 10's of millions daily.

 

You mean, when it actually is??? Are you seriously having credit issues in this game?? Sorry, but I find that hard to believe at this point.

 

Even the idea of getting one toon to 300 is abysmal to my thought process but that's cool for you because I just miss out on gear and get a disadvantage at PVP. As a result I just don't PVP. All good though only 1 less person who you don't have helping the PVP part of the game ticking over ... though I wonder how many others just don't PVP, I wonder how many others just plain left the game ...

 

Firstly, I can't think of anyone, in any raid group I'm in, never mind the people in the guilds I'm in that PVP regularly, that don't already have a toon at 300, if not multiples. It takes little to no time now with all the legacy perks, and running the boosters (a matter of a couple months if you're a casual). Never mind the fact that you can gear an alt with the overflow of 240/242/244/246/248 gear you get from crates, the gear on the GTN, minus 6 of the armoring's of course. There is just so much complaining about a gear gap in PVP that is so minimal. And It's hilarious to watch the PVP players complain about what is less of a grind doing something they don't enjoy than what PVE has to do to Min/Max.

 

That's the funny thing with MMO content - you actually need other people to play with remember.

 

That IS the funny thing about MMO content.... you actually have to put SOME time into it to grind gear and such...... I know it's a rough concept for you and all, but there is actually a little work involved. The other hilarity of it all being that the difference between bolster and min/max isn't such a disparity that a skilled player can't overcome it the majority of the time. The majority complaining, as is to be expected in this thread, the sorc nerf thread, and the sniper nerf thread, are the L2P crowd, the FOTM crowd, and those that want something for nothing...... And when they don't get it, they claim "I quit" or "Unsub"...... It's like watching petulant children.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Lahandra

[Kurj]

It's not hard to get a toon to 300. 100% boosts while running WZs for UCs and farming chapters in between gets you there pretty quickly, if you're like me and don't like group PVE content. If you like group PVE content, from what I hear FPs and Uprisings are great, although you miss out on UCs if you don't PVP. If you're one of those players who refuses to do anything but PVP, then I agree it is a more daunting grind, but here's the thing: once you get one toon to 300, you can gear your alts with 244 mods/enhancements, and buy 6 set bonus pieces for tokens. Mix in 246 gear for your left side, and you have a pretty competitively geared toon from the getgo. That's not a bad gearing system. In fact, it's very functional. The problem is that it's not pretty. You wind up with a functional set of gear, but it's not "shiny," if you get my meaning, and getting to BiS is painful.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

You clearly don't know how logic works, but that's an aside...

 

Nothing like a little ad hominem to start your post, great start there...

 

 

The answer to your question is implicit in the fact that they got the gear, and are now enjoying the power advantage over other players because they got the gear.

That's why they're still playing, and that's why they're still posting. If you remove that incentive, many of those players would stop playing because the promise of a power pay-off at the end of their effrots is removed entirely. That won't be true for all of them, of course, but it would be true for a large number of them.

 

They are at the top of the grind now, they have the best gear, others are always getting the gear. That advantage disappears by the day. Those who hate the concept of being disadvantaged by gear and dislike the system as a whole won't PVP thus no advantage over us.

 

So where is this incentive then? Nothing to aim for anymore and any advantage they might have had at first is near imaginary by now over those who would still dedicated PVP.

 

Also you make rather grand assumptions that many would stop PVPing if they didn't have a gear advantage as you assume for one that they have said advantage over many now (doubtful with how long we've had this system in place since 5.0 - many who regularly PVP would have the reached this same point) or that they would indeed fine the game less enjoyable without a gear grind.

 

Point is at this point the game would benefit more from attracting more people in than it would by keeping a system in place that very few seem to enjoy (as evidenced both here and on reddit in the feedback). I personally believe very few would outright stop PVPing if they lost a gear advantage (that would be insignificant for the most part currently) unless they are incredibly bad at PVP.

 

PvP in MMOs has a long-established history where stats have been important, and one of the core draws of PvP in an MMO isn't balance but the promise of power increases against other players.

 

And this game and most MMOs are a declining market. Stating "this is how it was so this is how it should be" is a nonsense argument to even endeavor to make. Progress and innovation is what games like this need if they wish to get turn around a declining player base into a growing one.

 

As for the entire "grinding for vanity items" shtick; the evidence from other games that have pushed for vanity to be the driving motivator in both PvE and PvP has been hideously mixed.

 

Looking at PVP here ... CoD series, LoL, Dota 2, Overwatch - all games with a vanity system in place and all games that are up there with the most played and paid for in the world currently. Clearly you're all at sea if you think a vanity market for PVP doesn't work.

 

Blizzard have tried to force that particular egg down the throats of raiders,

 

We're talking about PVP here not PVE. Please keep on topic.

 

There is absolutely no evidence that vanity is a good motivator for PvP in MMOs; I can think of no solid examples of it working.

 

MMO PVP isn't overly different to Moba PVP ... vanity works well there clearly. Also MMOs such as this have a massive vanity market that is pretty much keeping the game alive (cartel market). If vanity weren't popular as a means of progression I would be highly surprised.

 

The only thing that seems to have worked in addressing PvP balance and gear power creep is... limiting the gear and items that can be used in PvP. GW2 is a great example of this, and FFXIV is moving towards that outcome as well. WoW has had pure PvP gear for a while. The MMOs that have succeeded in ironing out gear issues in PvP don't rely on bolster mechanics like Bioware do, because they are a simplistic and crude approach that removes one of the core incentives and drives players away to other games. If that's the outcome you want, then let's have a 250 bolster. I, and many like me, will leave.

 

What games would those be that have driven players away with such a system?

[ChadSkywalkur]

The dilemma it seems is Bioware wants,

 

1. 4 tiers for operations (story, veteran, master, and +1 for the new operation)

2. mixed system gear for pve and pvp (for convenience, dual progression, limitations of GC, etc.)

3. gear to be obtained at the same rate in pvp as pve (because of number 2)

 

The problem is 4 tiers is too slow for pvp. It just is. As another person said, that experiment has failed.

 

So, how to solve that fundamental problem while maintaining the three points above? Well, I don't know much of the technical capabilities of bolster. But if it were possible instead of a flat bolster level, to have gear bolster up to a certain level. For example,

 

230-->242

232-->244

234-->246

236(+)-->248

 

That would keep the desired 4 tiers for operations and make pvp gearing faster (by shortening it to 2 tiers) without actually gaining gear faster than through pve.

 

For pve'ers high-end gear would still be effective in pvp, unlike 4.x and they would still have all the 5.x gearing benefits from pvp that they have now.

 

For pvp'ers they would only need to get to 236 gear to remove any gear disadvantage in pvp and then would continue to progress through GC while pvping without any drawbacks.

 

So basically 4.x gearing with bolster instead of expertise. (Is that a tl;dr? Whatever, don't really care )

 

What do you think? Would this be possible and would it satisfy you as a pvper or pve/pvper? (I don't think people who just pve are really affected by bolster. But you know, whatever, you can say what you want.)

[MeNaCe-NZ]

People have been saying this since the dawn of SWTOR back in 2012; it's never happened, and it will never happen.

 

What part hasn't happened? The declining population is factual - the actual PVP servers are now ghost towns - is that indicitive of a stable PVP community? I think not.

Torstatus alone shows the overall trend over time of declining population. Reddit stats demonstrated this when they were viewable. Nothing speaks to the opposite.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Yep..... and if by some chance you haven't already geared at least one toon, most guilds do this quite regularly for under-geared players. Or maybe, just maybe, you get a few PVP'ers together and do it as well......smh

 

Right I forgot getting BiS gear was a "do it in a day thing, no worries, easy peasy mate".

 

What nonsense.

 

You mean, when it actually is??? Are you seriously having credit issues in this game?? Sorry, but I find that hard to believe at this point.

 

Have you seen the prices for gear? Do you think that's something every player can readily afford? As I said the grind to get credits for gear would be as bad if not worse than the grind for gear in the first place. Nothing you've said even tries to counter this point.

 

 

Firstly, I can't think of anyone, in any raid group I'm in, never mind the people in the guilds I'm in that PVP regularly, that don't already have a toon at 300, if not multiples.

 

Many people don't have toons to 300, they left when they introduced the stupid system. Some came back when they realized they can now gear by ignoring GC but for the most part anyone coming back now and staring at a grind to GC level 300 on ONE toon just to START getting gear to help in PVP will often see that as a detriment and may very well not bother coming back at all.

 

It's easy to say you know of anyone in a game that has had a serious population decrease so the smaller portion of players (vs those that left since KoTFE) actually probably enjoy the system. Point remains with more people having left over time then changes should be put in to try bring them back.

 

 

It takes little to no time now with all the legacy perks, and running the boosters (a matter of a couple months if you're a casual).

 

Just a couple of month? Lol. Just a couple of months to get my one toon a level where I can start getting gear drops to help in PVP? Wow thanks for proving my argument for me and also proving you have no concept of what "little to no time" is.

 

 

Never mind the fact that you can gear an alt with the overflow of 240/242/244/246/248 gear you get from crates,

 

The gear you need to level up GC to get in the first place?

 

the gear on the GTN, minus 6 of the armoring's of course.

 

That costs credits the requires a time grind as well as has been established.

 

There is just so much complaining about a gear gap in PVP that is so minimal.

 

In your opinion, clearly many disagree.

And It's hilarious to watch the PVP players complain about what is less of a grind doing something they don't enjoy than what PVE has to do to Min/Max.

 

You only really NEED gear grind in PVE for HM/NiM ops, thats a MASSIVELY small part of the content of PVE.

 

 

That IS the funny thing about MMO content.... you actually have to put SOME time into it to grind gear and such...... I know it's a rough concept for you and all, but there is actually a little work involved. The other hilarity of it all being that the difference between bolster and min/max isn't such a disparity that a skilled player can't overcome it the majority of the time. The majority complaining, as is to be expected in this thread, the sorc nerf thread, and the sniper nerf thread, are the L2P crowd, the FOTM crowd, and those that want something for nothing...... And when they don't get it, they claim "I quit" or "Unsub"...... It's like watching petulant children.

 

Ah right another of these "this is an MMO - this is how it should be" arguments that seem dead set on driving the game into the ground because they think if it's the way it was it's the way it has to be. They of course ignore the fact that the game population is in decline as are most MMOs in general.

Adapt or perish.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

It's not hard to get a toon to 300. 100% boosts while running WZs for UCs and farming chapters in between gets you there pretty quickly, if you're like me and don't like group PVE content. If you like group PVE content, from what I hear FPs and Uprisings are great, although you miss out on UCs if you don't PVP. If you're one of those players who refuses to do anything but PVP, then I agree it is a more daunting grind, but here's the thing: once you get one toon to 300, you can gear your alts with 244 mods/enhancements, and buy 6 set bonus pieces for tokens. Mix in 246 gear for your left side, and you have a pretty competitively geared toon from the getgo. That's not a bad gearing system. In fact, it's very functional. The problem is that it's not pretty. You wind up with a functional set of gear, but it's not "shiny," if you get my meaning, and getting to BiS is painful.

 

People keep spitting this nonsense but they never offer a time breakdown. Let's see it?

Yes it's not "hard" but it's damn long and by the time you get to the point you might have GC 300 or the gear you want you are probably going to be so bored and rinsed of the game that there is little to keep you interested anymore.

 

Maybe I'm wrong though, maybe people LOVE grinding gear and the games population is actually growing and declining right?

[Kurj]

It took me five to six weeks from the release of 5.1. Definitely longer than gearing under 4.x, but I didn't think it was that bad. Edited July 1, 2017 by Kurj
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