Class Changes: Arsenal Merc / Gunnery Commando

[Darthanimus]

Nice changes! Not as harsh as I was expecting, bodes well for other disciplines

[Deewe]

Again, the elephant in the room is you can't balance both PvE and PvP without separating the skills effects at some points.

 

Until then...

[Evolixe]

Again, the elephant in the room is you can't balance both PvE and PvP without separating the skills effects at some points.

 

Until then...

 

I don't think its that dire, nor that such a thing is really necessary.

[DaCUJO]

This is just another way u are extending your old content by nerfing gear we just worked to get the number 1 complaint bout merc in pvp was defensive cool downs and that's the same so now u are just limiting the number of people capable of doing harder content why get gear if u just nerf stuff back to 224 as usuall u llok like moving in right direction and now people are not gonna grind more toons and just leave again so great job and for record I have other classes at 300 and geared but by end you will nerf them all to 224 levels and this was just a waste of time and money

[KittyKat_Karrot]

Your stance of not adjusting both dps and utilities in the same patch might make sense. If it hadn't been 8 MONTHS since the last balance patch. You need to compensate for that. Every patch that goes by where mercs still have Trauma Regulators is another mistake.

[Hellhog]

Tried my best to calculate the proposed changes to my current best Arsenal parse. Between the heat management change, crit bonus change, and blazing bolts damage nerf, it came out to about a 700 DPS loss putting my 10k parse at a supposed 9.3k DPS.

 

In all honesty Arsenal needs a nerf to it's damage (not just survivability). As it sits Arsenal bursts extremely hard yet maintains a very high sustained all while maintaining a super simple rotation. It makes other disciplines look like a joke compared to it. Yesterday BioWare told us what the combat team shoots for and right now Arsenal sits at the top of DPS grouping while they want it at the bottom. With the +/- 5% from norm, this means we should expect a 10% swing in DPS from Arsenal and 700 DPS loss definitely looks like about a 10% swing.

 

The rotation/priority system will remain the same. Just now for every 4 Blazing Bolts, 1 Tracer Missile will have to be substituted for Rapid Shots. TSO will still be preferred on the 15 heat single GCD abilities. So in the end, higher APM players will finally hit a double digit usage of Rapid Shots. Hopefully without the damage buff from Barrage anymore, this will convince players that open by pre-procing Barrage with Sweeping Blaster and using Blazing Bolts first to instead pre-cast Tracer Missile and Heatseeker.

 

The more shocking thing to this for me was the nerf to Chaff Flare. Ultimately it isn't the solution in my opinion. But they did mention they aren't changing utilities right now. I think the main issue is the combination of having Trauma Regulators with Energy Rebounders utilities (personally I'd just remove Trauma Regulators altogether).

 

[Long Live IO]

[Gyronamics]

25% increase in cost on Boltstorm

-14.89% damage on Boltstorm (4.89% reduction plus 10% loss from Curtain of Fire)

-15% crit damage on the burst abilities

 

Certainly looks like a hatchet job on:

 

- burst damage (albeit RNG since no crit = no crit bonus damage)

- sustained damage

- flexibility by consuming more resources

 

Players get to lose out in three attractive aspects of the spec at once.

 

That's considerably more interference than simply reducing DPS to fit the table of labels purportedly about hitting a DPS output over 5 minutes on what I am quite sure is a dummy. It's keeping nothing its good at intact and downgrading the spec across the board even to the point of increasing resource pressure.

 

Worse than that, you're not showing a full package of changes that affect a class at once, this is specifically to cripple damage and resource flexibility and later on it's going to get done over again from a different aspect which I highly suspect will sound like it's being done in another vacuum separate to this one.

 

PVE will suffer the most. Gunnery has been a stable and reliable spec since launch day for raiding and this is a significant hit for dps and burst checks.

 

PVP, well, Gunnery has had the exact same kind of output since 3.0 and the output was never really a disturbing factor.

 

The playerbase knows what really disturbs the game when it comes to commandos and it isn't their damage output or their burst, it's the survival abilities of 5.0 even though survival was exactly what the class overall needed for PVP. Try removing the Reflexive Shield utility which causes Reactive Shield to be up far too frequently with its healing threat from Trauma Stabilizers.

 

But sure, this does reduce the DPS of Gunnery even if it is in an extremely unpleasant way by hitting burst, sustained and resources. Job done?

[azamba]

This is probably gonna work out as too big a nerf I don't think this will leave arsenal much above mm snipers which are so bad in pve no one in their right mind takes them.

 

I think you need to tone down the 700ish dps nerf to more like 350

 

PS I don't play merc just no need to make them as useless as MM in PVE

 

I agree. I play Merc IO, and even though I really think Arsenal needed a nerf in damage output, since its clearly doing more than it should, almost the same as IO and in some fights even better, I agree that it was a little too much.

The way I see it, IO should be doing more dps in Single target fights than Arsenal, and less than Arsenal in fights with too many adds. But the way it is now, Arsenal is doing better than IO in most fights...

And if they really nerf Arsenal for like 600-700 dps, they will probably do something like it with IO too, which would bring the class to its knees.

So I've to strongly disagree with this changes in DPS for Arsenal, and consequently, for IO. Should at least rethink a few of those changes.

 

And btw people, STOP worrying about Utilities, they clearly said they WILL change it later on. This posts are for DPS BALANCE. Even if "balance" seems to be the only thing that doesn't happen around here...

 

Meanwhile...Op lethality will still be doing 12k in some fights....go figure.

Edited June 17, 2017 by azamba

[Deewe]

I don't think its that dire, nor that such a thing is really necessary.

Just wondering, do you play both higher tiers of PVP and PVE?

[DenariusJay]

I think what we are experiencing is we've gotten so used to Merc being the best at everything that we just accepted that they are suppose to be the best at everything. The dps output of Arsenal/Gunnery has always been bonkers, even in 4.0, specially considering how easy its rotation is (easiest in the game, for the most part, unlike carnage which requires tons of timing and setup to parse high)

 

People forget that even in 4.0 mandos dps was still really good, dare I say OP good, even in pvp. DCD's sucked, so it kind of balanced it out.

 

5.0 came with the god mode and unchanged dps (which may have been OP all along) I honestly think arsenal spec has been broken for awhile now. We just accepted it but BW internal balancing team has finally addressed the fact that arsenal/gunnery DPS output is out of line and *has* been out of line for quite awhile now, even pre5.0. It's just been this way for so long that we came to accept it. It's like breaking your leg and never having it set back correctly, eventually the re-healed leg becomes crooked but it becomes the new normal for you. That's what has happened to Gunnery/arsenal spec. BW is just rebooting/resetting the break, as it were. It just hurts when its been broken for so long to have to do it now.

 

The change is coming so late in the game that we perceive it to be unnecessary, when in reality it should've been this way when 5.0 first came out.

Edited June 17, 2017 by DenariusJay

[Darthanimus]

Again, the elephant in the room is you can't balance both PvE and PvP without separating the skills effects at some points.

 

Until then...

 

I totally agree, same gear, same abilities, totally different situation.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Yes they didn't get the utility nerfs many are calling for, but cmdos really are not the problem in pvp. It is the FOTM nature that is. Stacking any class causes problems. If fewer people queued on their cmdo alts one to three in a match would not be that big a deal. Personally the problem class is snipers, which can ruin a match without class stacking.

 

Any class stacking leads to problems, but none more than Mercs because mercs are OP all by themselves, so stacking only makes it worse. They wouldn't be so FOTM if they were so damn OP. I do agree that Snipers are a big problem as well, they are both OP but in somewhat different ways.

 

For melee pound for pound Snipers are a bigger issue than Mercs, but to say Mercs are not OP in PVP, singularly or in numbers, that's just not so. We all know not to hit them when thier reflects are up yada yada yada, but that still gives them 6 seconds of invincibility and 6 seconds unload 35k heatseekers into your face followed by 5 seconds of follow up burst or self heals. Passive h2fs have no place on any DPS spec for any reason. It would make any DPS spec OP because any way you cut it, it's two lives. If you have only one life as a DPS and your opponent has two as a DPS, that is an inherent unbalancing disadvantage. If you have more lives than your opponent, you didn't beat them at a thing,

[Jrbabar]

I think what we are experiencing is we've gotten so used to Merc being the best at everything that we just accepted that they are suppose to be the best at everything. The dps output of Arsenal/Gunnery has always been bonkers, even in 4.0, specially considering how easy its rotation is (easiest in the game, for the most part, unlike carnage which requires tons of timing and setup to parse high)

 

People forget that even in 4.0 mandos dps was still really good, dare I say OP good, even in pvp. DCD's sucked, so it kind of balanced it out.

 

5.0 came with the god mode and unchanged dps (which may have been OP all along) I honestly think arsenal spec has been broken for awhile now. We just accepted it but BW internal balancing team has finally addressed the fact that arsenal/gunnery DPS output is out of line and *has* been out of line for quite awhile now, even pre5.0. It's just been this way for so long that we came to accept it. It's like breaking your leg and never having it set back correctly, eventually the re-healed leg becomes crooked but it becomes the new normal for you. That's what has happened to Gunnery/arsenal spec. BW is just rebooting/resetting the break, as it were. It just hurts when its been broken for so long to have to do it now.

 

The change is coming so late in the game that we perceive it to be unnecessary, when in reality it should've been this way when 5.0 first came out.

 

Amen!

[ShadessaWayland]

This does nothing to address the Merc survival issue... that is what needed the nerf.. not the damage..

 

not really we need that survival or we will be back ad 4.0

when we are just paper no thx

 

and no1 talk about opertive survival and there insane damage they can do with only there knive

[DarkHayze]

Mercenary taking the mother of all nerfs

I think they should put rather 3 stacks of decoy and perhaps nerf the healing rate of kolto surge or the amount of heal provided by the trauma regulators. On the dps, nerf the burst is somewhat interesting, especially regarding those heatseeker missiles that often crits near 30 and more k, but if feel like they're screwing over energy management a bit too much and the'yre nerfing way too much arsenal's dps over a sustained fight, seems that arsenal is back with lightning sorc and marksmanship. Regarding pvp, I'd say one of the most anoying thing I think they should nerf a bit is the electronet snare debuff

[Hoppinswtor]

The DPS nerf is a little extreme. I did the math and it's a 9 percent dps loss (roughly). Blazing Bolts accounts for one-third of the damage in the rotation, and it's effectively getting a 15 percent nerf. That's a 5 percent dps loss right there. Add in the increased usage of rapid shots due to the heat management changes and the 15 percent surge reduction on another third of the rotation (heatseekers/railshot/priming, adding up to another couple percent dps loss) and we're talking about a spec that's going to go from averaging 10k on a dummy to 9200 tops. It'll effectively be worse than lightning, which is averaging 9400 w/o chain lightning bug.

 

Get rid of trauma regulators completely, give it to PTs, and nerf the healing to 3 percent per stack. Keep the 15 percent surge nerf in place (heatseeker/RS burst is overtuned relative to other specs, so I'm fine with that particular nerf). Increase the cooldown of Electro Net to 2.5 minutes and have a utility that reduces its cooldown by 45 seconds (to replace Trauma Regulators). That's it. That's all you have to do, and everyone will be satisfied.

 

Also, PLEASE do not take into account the geniuses who are parsing Lightning with the Chain Lightning bug that you guys still need to fix. Lightning averages 10k on a dummy ONLY when chain lightning is used instantly every six seconds (this is a bug you should have fixed a while ago). Without this bug, Lightning averages a very poor 9400, which is 6-7 percent below your target (not 5 percent). I know this is off topic, but to bring Lightning to within "5 percent" of the average, just increase Thundering Blast base damage by 10 percent. It'll lead to about a 300 dps gain and also give Lightning the extra burst it so badly needs in pvp.

 

I have faith that you guys will turn this around though and deliver a balanced product But you HAVE to listen to your players. I have more than two months played on both my sorc and my merc, and my brain is always awailable for picking when it comes to the four DPS specs associated with those classes.

Edited June 17, 2017 by Hoppinswtor

[Red_rocks]

WHY ARE YOU NERFING THE DAMAGE? DO YOU THINK WE NEED TO BE AS BAD AS LIGHTNING SORCS OR MARKSMAN SNIPERS? WHY ARENT YOU JUST FIXING THOSE 2 SPECS INSTEAD OF MAKING ARSENAL SUCK TOO?

 

This is the most idiotic thing ive ever seen.

Mercs arent doing too much damage.

Their defensives are retardly OP

You nerfed their damage

You left their retardedly OP defensives alone.

Are you stupid?

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

not really we need that survival or we will be back ad 4.0

when we are just paper no thx

 

and no1 talk about opertive survival and there insane damage they can do with only there knive

 

No DPS spec needs 3 lives. They're survival is grossly over powered, all the more so that it's a ranged class.

 

They shouldn't have touched the dps save for the surge buff, that's the only adjustment they should have touched DPS wise.

 

And trying to deflect the needed Merc DCD nerfs with Operative claims is just plain sad. Do better than that.

Edited June 17, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[scardera]

ok wait a minute insteed of buffing sorc and marksman you nerf our dammage to suck as bad as sorc ? wow you guys at Biofail are crazy lol UNSUB

[Gyronamics]

There's some liberal use of the word "we" around here.

 

Could it be that people are fronting in a class change thread where they have an axe to grind so any downside is a cause to be championed

 

I'm not saying it's as obvious as a floater in a bathtub when a fully negative change is posted and chirpy voices declare that "we" approve.

 

But it's close.

 

 

I'll repeat myself for the undisguised purpose of visibility.

 

Burst, Sustained and Resource management all being weakened to hit the target goal of X dps over 5 minutes as described in How Class Balance Happens

 

Except that hitting Burst and Resource isn't required in that at all, these are bonus penalties heading into the realm of making the class less purposeful and less player friendly "because".

 

I disagree with more than just that, classes with resource differences, multi target differences, capacities to engage, disengage, resist and recover from damage all getting grouped together by means of output for 5 mins on a highly suspected single target dummy which sticks in my mind for some reason.

 

And this is the start of it. Change DPS on the suspected single target over 5 mins to suit the label on the spec and I say real world performance involving interactions with PVE and especially PVP will still be drastically different between classes in the same bracket. But you will call it balanced by the measure you want.

Edited June 17, 2017 by Gyronamics

[scardera]

Bioware plan :

 

1 release tier 4 gears

2 wait everybody is geared with 248

3 Nerf there classes

4 Profit

Edited June 17, 2017 by scardera

[mitchsts]

the damage is not what needed to be nerfed. the over powered defensive abilities and utilities is the problem. the damage does seem overpowered, but that's mostly because mercenaries can sit and attack uninterrupted. i know you guys are trying, but you all just missed. i really don't know how either, that's all people complain about on the forums.

 

at least they picked the right class spec this time.

[zirtapozmrv]

Ofc the next step is utilities. Just like how happened with sorcs, nerfs, over and over again, until the merc are the new sorcs. Then everyone will start complaining how merc dps sucks. Now a big grats to all the whiners! And ofc well done BW for getting everything wrong. Maybe remove all the ranged burst specs from the game ha?

[vicadin]

Based on Bant's spreadsheet, these proposed 5.3 changes will put Mercenary Arsenal/Commando Gunnery below Sorcerer Lightning/Sage Telekinetics

 

Sorcerer - Lightning = 9324.83

Mercenary - Arsenal = 9163.96

[verfallen]

the servers are going to be rolling in tears come july lol.

 

Vindicative tears for some, but mercs...RIP seriously,

 

TBH arsenal always was a bit more powerful for a range burst spec. Safe for a small bit of 3.0 where lightning was in its golden age (and even then) and in 4.0 when MM was in its golden age, Arsenal always had a very good sustained dps for a burst rdps. Its also why, even tough IO had its bad moments, even in its no so bad it wasn't popular till they really buffed it in 5.0.

 

The 15%to crit was long overdue since everyone else lost theirs, but the BB bolt nerf is a bit sad. The lowest according to those chart should be around 9.5kish, and it should be marksman, then Lightning, then arsenal (lightning being a tad more mobile than arsenal).