EzioMessi Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 Are you seriously suggesting they should nerf DPS juggs and sins? No, they're suggesting DPS Juggs and Sins be made into actual DPSers instead of semi-tanks. I kinda agree, but only for guard. Taunts should be usable by all specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eli_Porter Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 (edited) No, they're suggesting DPS Juggs and Sins be made into actual DPSers instead of semi-tanks. I kinda agree, but only for guard. Taunts should be usable by all specs. Guarding as a melee DPS takes skill, since guard positioning and DPS are very awkward when combined (try chasing a target while guarding a sniper, good luck). Managing guard also lowers your DPS output, and makes you more susceptible to burst if you're not super fast with dropping your guard. And even if managed perfectly, the contribution of guard in a team that already has a tank is minimal when you consider all the factors in play. Edited May 18, 2017 by Eli_Porter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qronus Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 I like this guy. Same here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qronus Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 They should remove guards and taunts from everyone except tanks, and real tanks, not skank tanks, so as to give greater incentitive and greater value to the tanking role in PVP. ^This, times infinity! Make PvP great again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foambreaker Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 That's not the issue ... the issue is that Healers are not properly awarded for their utility to a PvP match. I main a tank, and I almost always top the WZ scoreboard while providing as much utility to my team as a mammary on a nun. Yet, on my Healer I will routinely get less than 8 medals even though I am more valuable to my team. This simply not true. If you cap an objective you get the EXACT same medals as a DPS who capped an objective. I hate to break it to you but healers are not special, in fact many times we have too many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qronus Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 (edited) I hate to break it to you but healers are not special, in fact many times we have too many. EVERY single wz can be won without killing a single opponent, without exception! Civil War = cap and guard Novare = cap and guard Stunball = grab and score Hypergate = cap and guard / run orbs / ninja enemy pylon Quesh Stunball = grab and score Voidstar = guard on defense / plant on offense Arena's can be won by immunity bubble timing / having more health than opponent in gas / CC them in gas away from mid, etc At no time are kills "needed". Ask yourself this question: How many times has your team had two turrets in civil war, only to lose because people went "kill hunting", bored with guarding for the win, and you lost one or both pylons? I'll take a boring win over a hotly contested loss ANY day! If you have a majority of healers on your team, the above strategies will give you the win. I'll take an abundance of healers over zero healers any wz. Edited May 18, 2017 by Qronus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vember Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 (edited) If a healer cannot even keep themself alive in a 1 vs 1with a DPS, how on earth could they possibly be expected to keep the other people on the team alive? Like I said, teamwork. An guarded healer with out peels and taunts should be fodder. When a healer is powerful enough to keep himself alive as well as his teammates without any outside help, then you get the stale, overpowered crap we have now. Because of the current power of a single healer, multiple healers pretty much ruins the pvp in this game right now as it stands. Edited May 18, 2017 by Vember Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellow_ Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 here's a list of things, in no particular order, that contribute much more to people not dying in warzones than the amount of HPS healers can put out: a constant trickle of improved defensive cooldowns and escapes in each major patch players who do no damage players who split their damage players who attack the wrong targets, don't use cc, and break other's ccs no matchmaking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VixenRawR Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 EVERY single wz can be won without killing a single opponent, without exception! Civil War = cap and guard Novare = cap and guard Stunball = grab and score Hypergate = cap and guard / run orbs / ninja enemy pylon Quesh Stunball = grab and score Voidstar = guard on defense / plant on offense Arena's can be won by immunity bubble timing / having more health than opponent in gas / CC them in gas away from mid, etc At no time are kills "needed". Ask yourself this question: How many times has your team had two turrets in civil war, only to lose because people went "kill hunting", bored with guarding for the win, and you lost one or both pylons? I'll take a boring win over a hotly contested loss ANY day! If you have a majority of healers on your team, the above strategies will give you the win. I'll take an abundance of healers over zero healers any wz. First off kills DO matter in hypergate a lot. I've seen double caps fail under the slaughter of the other team. Unless they double cap more than once. Only an idiot would lose a node when not dead. So unless the guards have the brains of a pigeon...good luck capping. People who win arenas with bubble should just uninstall the game. Arena's are stupid anyways. Who cares if you win. I just leave if its a sorc healfest. I have better things to do like get into a real warzone. I've actually had civil wars where our team ran in a pack of 8, predation spam and just moved from node to node slaughtering and capping. They were so disorganized because they didn't know what to expect that even t hough they capped the node we left empty a dozen times we were holding 2-3 nodes most the match. Doubt this is sound logic, but I actually convinced people to do this a lot a few years ago and it worked really well. Course if your dmg is bad it wont work to well...its fun to try something different though. It's fine I sometimes guard grass at snow. People are so bad it won't matter. I spent a civil war going and ganking people at grass and snow and kept both nodes while everyone fought in mid. I would usually make it back to the other node in time....course my sin no longer has phasewalk...*sigh* "Grab and score." Are you grabbing a fold of hutt fat and considering it a score? >.> I find a lot of times I just pull/push the ball carrier into acid or fire and thank them for bringing me the ball. Why fight your way up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VixenRawR Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 What I hate the most is when I end up in an arena where the other side has a tanking class + healer (non-Ranked) and my PuG doesn't even realize that guard and taunts exist. "Everyone focus healer" "That won't work, we need to force guard swaps or peel away the tank-" "FOCUS HEALERS" ~Everyone on our team dies and their healer never drops below 80% heath~ "THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT YOU'RE A SCRUB YOU SHOULD HAVE FOCUSED HEALER, LETS FOCUS HEALER THIS ROUND" "That's exactly what we did last tim-" "FOCUS HEALER" ~Same story~ "YOU'RE ALL BADS BYE, I HATE PUB PVP" -Story of every arena in swtor, ever At this point I can't even tell if the game needs guard+taunt to be tuned down, or a mandatory tutorial on how tank protection works, and why swaps are important. Your teams dmg was bad. You should "FOCUS THE HEALER" if you want to win. Unless the healer is bad, or the tank can't guard swap...then it wont matter as everyone will die. I find that no matter what...if I am healing and everyone is focusing the tank or dps...you just made my job a lot easier. I can just freecast and use perfect rotation without bothering to waste cooldowns on other abilities and lose healing potential. Tanks aren't taunting 24/7 They cant aoe taunt very often, and they can't single taunt the entire team. A healer being focused will weaken the tank causing the healer to focus heals off itself and onto tank as well. If you can get the dps caught into aoes thats even better. Focusing healer doesn't just mean sit there and blindly dps. You need to keep it interrupted constantly. Everyone spamming interrupts will quickly see a healer to run. Timing knockbacks is great. Sure use cc to separate the tank and healer but that is just used to focus healer and included. The only time you break off heals if they barrier, or phase far away or the enemy in the midst of aoe or dmg through guard is dropping well below 30% and you could turn and quickly burst it down before the healer in all its glory can do anything. That is when you could stun the healer and quickly take out the tank or a dps. Otherwise focusing the healer is better than people tunneling the tank or just splitting up dps across all targets. Interrupting innervate on a sorc is probably the BEST thing you can do. It allows for so much mobility and procing that you never want to see it get the full channel. Interrupting late into a heal cast (Not channel) is great because if they spam dark heal and you interrupt it towards the later half of the cast you just wasted all that time they spent casting, now they have to wait for it to come back too. The problem is people don't know how to focus a healer right. Btw if a tank guard swaps it most likely will just swap back to healer the moment it is damaged, If its bad it will just stay on healer and you will be wasting your time as the healer will be healing all the dps because it isn't being focused. I am sure maybe in some perfect team speak FOTM pos ranked arena team where everyone plays easy mode classes that will never die this might work in the hopes of getting one big coordinated attack off on the healer before guard is applied once more. Either way, if you can focus the healer right with good interrupts, cc, and burst...it should die even under guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zindoki Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 Healers are actually pretty weak in PVP compared to other games I've played. The ONLY reason you are seeing groups stay alive now is the plethora of DCDs that they have given all the DPS classes. DPS can self heal, mitigate tons of damage, more than most tanks can. Do you see PT tanks any more? or even PT dps? Do you see many DPS classes/specs without heals? All the DPS self healing is helping the healer keep the groups alive. If that was put back the way it was even in 4.0, there would be a huge difference. It's a very complex system and you can't single out one thing like the healer or a tank, it's the system as a whole. Example: the higher the dps output of dps in general, the higher value CC is (i.e. if dps is 20k dps burst, 4s stun = 80kdmg, if dps is 10k burst, 4s stun = 40k dmg, the cc is less valuable when dmg is lower, which is better gameplay imo) Example: group full of classes with large DCDs, if the healer gets overwhelmed the group can use DCDs to mitigate dmg until the healer brings them all backup, making it look like the healer is awesome, but really isn't. DPS with crazy heals for dcds (snipers, mercs, jugg [yeah i know but it's a solid healing dcd]) makes healers look better or gives them some breathing room Example: lots of cc going out meaning less damage coming in makes the healer look better. I can't tell you how many times I've died in seconds on my healer due to focus fire and cc. If coordinated properly and your team doesn't cc back, it's crazy. CC wins the games because it's so overpowered right now. Slows, stuns, roots, knockbacks, interrupts, there are way too many of these in the game at the moment, especially slows. If the one thing they would work on is changing slows right now I'd be happy. Remove 'auto' slows where they just are built into the attacks, and auto-roots which are built in. Make it waste a gcd to put a root, and have it not last ages and be spammable like they are now. Anyway, there are a lot of factors to consider, and it's a big balancing act between dps/heals/amount of health/dcds/ and cc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schoock Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 The problem is people don't know how to focus a healer right. It's funny you're lessoning someone about how they don't know how to play properly when in fact they had it right in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clouderino Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 (edited) "Coordinated interrupts and CC's are my worst nightmare" - A healer. Edited May 20, 2017 by Clouderino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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