Iokath WPvP not encouraged and virtually nonexistent

[Rion_Starkiller]

First, don't you mean that those players are no longer susceptible to being ganked when they are either unsuspecting, fighting mobs, or otherwise engaged?

 

Or like... running orbs?

 

 

Second, if it is a PVE instance, there is no "PVP area", right?

 

And on PVP servers, everywhere is a "PVP area", correct?

 

The Ilum PVP AREA existed before forced PvE and PvP instances. Until 5.0, it rewarded Warzone comms. Regardless of instance, you still cannot summon your comps. When you take the teleporter to the PVP AREA, you get 8 seconds of stealth and red words flash across your screen "Entering PvP Area, You have 8 seconds to get somewhere safe!" (something like that)

 

Have you even been to Ilum?

Edited April 23, 2017 by Rion_Starkiller

[ivanhedgehog]

Not sure why you need to use a condescending tone, but I will respond anyway. Guild v Guild & Squad v Squad pvp happened organically, pre 4.0. One or 2 people would be out doing dailies in the pvp area, then would get jumped by a few stealth gankers. Those folks would form their own group and counter. More would join each side. Rumor would get out. Other squads and guilds would get involved. Snowball effect. It didn't happen all day every day, but it did happen.

 

With a PvE-only instance, those same people that were doing dailies are no longer under threat IN A PVP AREA on Ilum. Therefore, they take the shortest route to finishing their dailies (isn't it logical to take the shortest, easiest path?).

 

PvP is what the area was designed for. If anything, the central pvp area should not be accessible in a PvE instance.

 

EU pvpers seem to be capable of organizing their pastime, US pvpers want the devs to hold their hands. NOTHING is stopping pvpers from doing owpvp. If people wanted to do it, they would. if you have to annoy people for them to play with you, thats your problem. schedule and announce time for people to be at a certain area at a certain date and time in a pvp instance, if there are people that want to owpvp, they will come.

[Soljin]

EU pvpers seem to be capable of organizing their pastime, US pvpers want the devs to hold their hands. NOTHING is stopping pvpers from doing owpvp. If people wanted to do it, they would. if you have to annoy people for them to play with you, thats your problem. schedule and announce time for people to be at a certain area at a certain date and time in a pvp instance, if there are people that want to owpvp, they will come.

 

 

Man you are pretty rude most of the time... I'm guessing that's just your thing but in case you are not aware, there you go.

[ivanhedgehog]

Man you are pretty rude most of the time... I'm guessing that's just your thing but in case you are not aware, there you go.

 

trying to get the devs to change the game to allow you to gank people to try to get them to call help they may not have so that you can have your fun..the definition of rude. if you want to do pvp, que for a wz or invite people to fight..or go in a pvp instance. dont stab people in the back and hope they have friends to come help them.

 

or, you could ask the devs to only put pvp area quests in pvp instances..ie. the gree area orb quest. they did it with commanders, so they should at least think about it.

Edited April 23, 2017 by ivanhedgehog

[Soljin]

trying to get the devs to change the game to allow you to gank people to try to get them to call help they may not have so that you can have your fun..the definition of rude. if you want to do pvp, que for a wz or invite people to fight..or go in a pvp instance. dont stab people in the back and hope they have friends to come help them.

 

or, you could ask the devs to only put pvp area quests in pvp instances..ie. the gree area orb quest. they did it with commanders, so they should at least think about it.

 

When this game was in beta the OWPVP was strong! Lag was also strong, but regardless it was fun. It is true that if people want OWPvP they should just play in the PvP instance sure...makes sense.

 

It seems that not many are and those that transferred from PvP servers to servers like Harbinger that are now optional PvE/PvP miss the OWPvP interactions that occurred on their PvP server.

 

Do I blame them? No...Do I automatically assume they are all gankers that want to ruin other people fun...No. Some of them may be but I doubt it is the majority of them or even close.

 

Would I try to think up ideas that would bring back OWPVP to help that bunch, sure...do I want it to hurt PvE players ..No.

 

Do I rail everyone that disagrees with me about the ideas...Not unless they are rude for no reason, mind you disagreeing and being rude should be two completely different things...

Edited April 23, 2017 by Soljin

[ivanhedgehog]

When this game was in beta the OWPVP was strong! Lag was also strong, but regardless it was fun. It is true that if people want OWPvP they should just play in the PvP instance sure...makes sense.

 

It seems that not many are and those that transferred from PvP servers to servers like Harbinger that are now optional PvE/PvP miss the OWPvP interactions that occurred on their PvP server.

 

Do I blame them? No...Do I automatically assume they are all gankers that want to ruin other people fun...No. Some of them may be but I doubt it is the majority of them or even close.

 

Would I try to think up ideas that would bring back OWPVP to help that bunch, sure...do I want it to hurt PvE player...No.

 

Do I rail everyone that disagrees with me about the ideas...Not unless they are rude for no reason, mind you disagreeing and being rude should be two completely different things...

 

if they want to owpvp, they would be in pvp instances. its like saying you want lunch and going to a hardware store. Then insisting that they start selling food. It cant be any simpler than going to the pvp instance. The people on the eu server had a huge owpvp event, they didnt seem to have problems.

[Soljin]

if they want to owpvp, they would be in pvp instances. its like saying you want lunch and going to a hardware store. Then insisting that they start selling food. It cant be any simpler than going to the pvp instance. The people on the eu server had a huge owpvp event, they didnt seem to have problems.

 

That wasn't an OWPVP event that was a bunch of one faction wrecking another...Which as it happens is usually how OWPVP turns out if not managed by a game system in some way.

[ivanhedgehog]

That wasn't an OWPVP event that was a bunch of one faction wrecking another...Which as it happens is usually how OWPVP turns out if not managed by a game system in some way.

 

so you are saying we have never had owpvp in this game? because the game system doesnt manage it at all. to tell the truth, many wz's are one group wrecking the other. Tell me it doesnt work out that way. a premade comes in and farms the other team, happens fairly often.

[Soljin]

so you are saying we have never had owpvp in this game? because the game system doesnt manage it at all. to tell the truth, many wz's are one group wrecking the other. Tell me it doesnt work out that way. a premade comes in and farms the other team, happens fairly often.

 

I was simply stating that was not a really good example of what OWPVP can be...That said OWPVP is a pretty broad term so technically that was indeed OWPVP.

 

With that said I have no desire to feed this back and forth attempt to achieve not much, so you win! Not sure what but it's all yours man later.

Edited April 23, 2017 by Soljin

[Andryah]

so you are saying we have never had owpvp in this game? because the game system doesnt manage it at all. to tell the truth, many wz's are one group wrecking the other. Tell me it doesnt work out that way. a premade comes in and farms the other team, happens fairly often.

 

And I think you hit the head of the nail right here..... people prosecuting these sorts of complaint threads WANT a studio managed OWPvP environment... essentially forcing players into OWPvP... which will not happen. They want the free form chaos of OW but with the sanitized boundaries and constraints of a WZ, and lots of rewards. It's not going happen.

 

I personally still see old school OWPvP at it's peak in the market ....in WoW (before they put in instanced PvP) where the two factions had a running free for all PvP battle going in and around Tarren Mill pretty much 7/24. THAT was true unbridled and rewardless OWPvP, and there were not rewards for it other then laughing and enjoying watching players on the other side taking dirt naps after getting rolled. The battles were generally very fluid, ebbing and flowing between the two factions local hub towns (with players entering and leaving the conflict constantly as the hours went on .. and honestly it was a blast simply to PvP in adhoc groups for the sake of PvP. Once the studio put in a ranking system for PvP.. things even amped up in Tarren Mill... until the studio began releasing instanced PvP. Once instanced PvP was layered over top of a point ranking system... OWPvP largely died in WoW, and frankly in most other MMOs as well.

Edited April 23, 2017 by Andryah

[Ratajack]

Or like... running orbs?

 

As I said, "or otherwise engaged".

 

 

 

The Ilum PVP AREA existed before forced PvE and PvP instances. Until 5.0, it rewarded Warzone comms. Regardless of instance, you still cannot summon your comps. When you take the teleporter to the PVP AREA, you get 8 seconds of stealth and red words flash across your screen "Entering PvP Area, You have 8 seconds to get somewhere safe!" (something like that)

 

Have you even been to Ilum?

 

Yes, I have been to Ilum, although not much since the implementation of PVE and PVP instances. The old PVP area may still have pop-up warnings if BW did not change the code in those areas, similar to the outlaw's den on Tattooine, but unless I am mistaken, in the PVE instances players are not flagged, effectively making them PVE areas, despite the pop-ups.

 

I've not been to Iokath yet, so I cannot say whether those pop-ups appear in either type of instance, but I would not be surprised if BW coded the instances on that world right from the get-go without those pop-ups since "warnings" would not really be needed.

Edited April 23, 2017 by Ratajack

[Ratajack]

When this game was in beta the OWPVP was strong! Lag was also strong, but regardless it was fun. It is true that if people want OWPvP they should just play in the PvP instance sure...makes sense.

 

It seems that not many are and those that transferred from PvP servers to servers like Harbinger that are now optional PvE/PvP miss the OWPvP interactions that occurred on their PvP server.

 

Do I blame them? No...Do I automatically assume they are all gankers that want to ruin other people fun...No. Some of them may be but I doubt it is the majority of them or even close.

 

Would I try to think up ideas that would bring back OWPVP to help that bunch, sure...do I want it to hurt PvE players ..No.

 

Do I rail everyone that disagrees with me about the ideas...Not unless they are rude for no reason, mind you disagreeing and being rude should be two completely different things...

 

If their true interest was in "true WPVP" and not simply ganking, why are they in the PVE instances and not in the PVP instances?

[Soljin]

If their true interest was in "true WPVP" and not simply ganking, why are they in the PVE instances and not in the PVP instances?

 

No idea man...If you are looking for a fight regarding forced PvP in PvE instances you are quoting the wrong dude...

[Soljin]

And I think you hit the head of the nail right here..... people prosecuting these sorts of complaint threads WANT a studio managed OWPvP environment... essentially forcing players into OWPvP... which will not happen. They want the free form chaos of OW but with the sanitized boundaries and constraints of a WZ, and lots of rewards. It's not going happen.

 

I personally still see old school OWPvP at it's peak in the market ....in WoW (before they put in instanced PvP) where the two factions had a running free for all PvP battle going in and around Tarren Mill pretty much 7/24. THAT was true unbridled and rewardless OWPvP, and there were not rewards for it other then laughing and enjoying watching players on the other side taking dirt naps after getting rolled. The battles were generally very fluid, ebbing and flowing between the two factions local hub towns (with players entering and leaving the conflict constantly as the hours went on .. and honestly it was a blast simply to PvP in adhoc groups for the sake of PvP. Once the studio put in a ranking system for PvP.. things even amped up in Tarren Mill... until the studio began releasing instanced PvP. Once instanced PvP was layered over top of a point ranking system... OWPvP largely died in WoW, and frankly in most other MMOs as well.

 

See I'm starting to think that no one in this debate even knows what developer managed/supported OWPVP can be.

 

Once again I will refer to SWG. Players set faction bases on a planet and were able to pick a time when the base would become open to attack by the opposing faction.

 

This would give both factions time to build resources and set a time for a gathering and plan...then go out and attack a base etc... During off hours the base was non-destructible but had opposing faction NPCs guarding and patrolling etc...

 

To destroy the base you needed several different profession types to interface the terminal inside the base to set the base destruction timer...

 

When you took down a base you received faction points which could be used for multiple things including turrets for the bases and other defenses and faction specific armor vendors etc...

 

this base setting system led to huge OWPVP interactions regularly and it was a great time from both sides, building and protecting a base or raiding bases.

 

This is one version of a developer managed/supported OWPVP system...with incentives for participating.

 

Seems like everyone thinks OWPVP should only be random people smashing into red players....

Edited April 23, 2017 by Soljin

[Ratajack]

See I'm starting to think that no one in this debate even knows what developer managed OWPVP can be. Once again I will refer to SWG Players set faction bases on a planet and were able to pick a time when the base would become open to attack by the opposing faction.

 

This would give both factions time to build resources and set a time for a gathering and plan...then go out and attack a base etc... During off hours the base was non-destructible but had opposing faction NPCs guarding and patrolling etc...

 

To destroy the base you needed several different profession types to interface the terminal inside the base to set the base destruction timer...

 

When you took down a base you received a large amount of faction points which could be used for multipe things and vendors at that time.

 

This is one version of a developer managed OWPVP system...with incentives for participating.

 

Maybe you have not played WoW, but WoW tried that approach in their Burning Crusade expansion. Most of the zones had "PVP objectives" to encourage WPVP. All of these objectives gave some sort of benefit tot he controlling faction, whether that was increased XP and/or damage, a graveyard closer to the raid instance, a "currency" drop off mobs in that zones instances, etc.

 

 

Some of those objectives were always subject to "attack" and control was up for grabs at all times, while some objectives were "control locked" for a certain amount of time once one faction or the other gained control, or the "open contest" time expired.

 

Those WPVP objectives ultimately proved worthless for "incentivizing" WPVP. Sure, there was a brief surge of activity that lasted maybe a week or two, but then people got tired of being ganked (either by level capped players with raid gear or a 40 man raid group of opposite faction members) while "simply trying to gain a simple bonus" and seeing anyone trying to take control of those PVP objectives is like pulling a platinum rarity item from the only pack you open.

 

Even in their "prime", during that brief week or two surge, there were no real "major" PVP battles. If the objectives were contested, most of the time it was less than 5 per faction, and even the objectives that were always "contestable" often went uncontested.

 

It seems that most people claim to be "PVP'ers" only want to PVP under their terms, whether that be in "instanced PVP" only when they feel like PVP'ing, or in OWPVP ganking those who have no real chance to fight back effectively. That is true in this game and in WoW, as well as all the other online games I have played or still play.

 

Sure, there are some who like WPVP and accept that they might be outnumbered 10-1 at times, but it seems most have no interest in WPVP unless they are on the 10 side, not the 1 side.

[Soljin]

Maybe you have not played WoW, but WoW tried that approach in their Burning Crusade expansion. Most of the zones had "PVP objectives" to encourage WPVP. All of these objectives gave some sort of benefit tot he controlling faction, whether that was increased XP and/or damage, a graveyard closer to the raid instance, a "currency" drop off mobs in that zones instances, etc.

 

 

Some of those objectives were always subject to "attack" and control was up for grabs at all times, while some objectives were "control locked" for a certain amount of time once one faction or the other gained control, or the "open contest" time expired.

 

Those WPVP objectives ultimately proved worthless for "incentivizing" WPVP. Sure, there was a brief surge of activity that lasted maybe a week or two, but then people got tired of being ganked (either by level capped players with raid gear or a 40 man raid group of opposite faction members) while "simply trying to gain a simple bonus" and seeing anyone trying to take control of those PVP objectives is like pulling a platinum rarity item from the only pack you open.

 

Even in their "prime", during that brief week or two surge, there were no real "major" PVP battles. If the objectives were contested, most of the time it was less than 5 per faction, and even the objectives that were always "contestable" often went uncontested.

 

It seems that most people claim to be "PVP'ers" only want to PVP under their terms, whether that be in "instanced PVP" only when they feel like PVP'ing, or in OWPVP ganking those who have no real chance to fight back effectively. That is true in this game and in WoW, as well as all the other online games I have played or still play.

 

Sure, there are some who like WPVP and accept that they might be outnumbered 10-1 at times, but it seems most have no interest in WPVP unless they are on the 10 side, not the 1 side.

 

I did play WoW actually and I remember the objectives you mentioned...Not the same thing at all. THey were static objectives that no one player had any investment in.

 

What I was talking about in SWG would be akin to an enemy faction attacking your guild stronghold if it were reachable by them at a time you set... Not really the same thing.

 

I think saying that most have no interest in OWPVP unless it's 10-1 is very bias and kind of close minded...But you have a right to your opinion so there ya go!

[Ratajack]

I did play WoW actually and I remember the objectives you mentioned...Not the same thing at all. THey were static objectives that no one player had any investment in.

 

What I was talking about in SWG would be akin to an enemy faction attacking your guild stronghold if it were reachable by them at a time you set... Not really the same thing.

 

I think saying that most have no interest in OWPVP unless it's 10-1 is very bias and kind of close minded...But you have a right to your opinion so there ya go!

 

If there are so many people who desire WPVP for the sake of WPVP and not simply when they have a massive advantage, either due to a level difference, a high influence companion, much better gear or simply a massive advantage in numbers, why are the PVP instances "ghost towns", as some have called them? Why are they not full of people who desire WPVP simply for the sake of WPVP?

 

If there are so many people who desire WPVP simply for the sake of WPVP, why does BW "need" to "incentivize WPVP" or "manage WPVP"?

 

You have yet to answer either of those questions, other than to essentially say "you are entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is biased and closed minded".

[Soljin]

If there are so many people who desire WPVP for the sake of WPVP and not simply when they have a massive advantage, either due to a level difference, a high influence companion, much better gear or simply a massive advantage in numbers, why are the PVP instances "ghost towns", as some have called them? Why are they not full of people who desire WPVP simply for the sake of WPVP?

 

If there are so many people who desire WPVP simply for the sake of WPVP, why does BW "need" to "incentivize WPVP" or "manage WPVP"?

 

You have yet to answer either of those questions, other than to essentially say "you are entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is biased and closed minded".

 

I think you may be operating under the assumption that this game has done enough to keep a PVP presence substantial enough to support anything but instanced War Zones.

 

In the early days we did have OWPVP it just failed due to poor choices in Ilum and the server struggling to support large numbers...The vast majority of the PvP oriented players left....

 

I have said in several other posts that in its current form OWPVP in this game is not likely, I have made suggestions about how we could possibly improve participation...What I have not done is said that I have a personal interest in OWPVP in this game...Because I could care less

 

I'm just trying to further the topic of this thread via ideas and discussion. I think it gets a bit twisted when people begin to expect me to solve the OWPVP issue or admit defeat in some way...Its not my thread or my problem, I'm just contributing to the topic.

 

I don't have the perfect answer or the absolute debate winning response...that is not the point. What have you contributed to this topic? other than trying to snuff it out because you clearly dislike OWPVP...

Edited April 24, 2017 by Soljin

[Kolskeggur]

I think you may be operating under the assumption that this game has done enough to keep a PVP presence substantial enough to support anything but instanced War Zones.

 

In the early days we did have OWPVP it just failed due to poor choices in Ilum and the server struggling to support large numbers...The vast majority of the PvP oriented players left....

 

I have said in several other posts that in its current form OWPVP in this game is not likely, I have made suggestions about how we could possibly improve participation...What I have not done is said that I have a personal interest in OWPVP in this game...Because I could care less

 

I'm just trying to further the topic of this thread via ideas and discussion. I think it gets a bit twisted when people begin to expect me to solve the OWPVP issue or admit defeat in some way...Its not my thread or my problem, I'm just contributing to the topic.

 

I don't have the perfect answer or the absolute debate winning response...that is not the point. What have you contributed to this topic? other than trying to snuff it out because you clearly dislike OWPVP...

 

So you're essentially arguing that the game should cater more to players that have long since stopped playing the game then... or what?

[Soljin]

So you're essentially arguing that the game should cater more to players that have long since stopped playing the game then... or what?

 

I don't even....well I....Nope.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Soljin

[stoopicus]

I don't even....well I....Nope.

 

Wow. That was some selective quoting that just got done right there

 

If that was your takeaway from what Soljin wrote, just lol.

[Rion_Starkiller]

1. I just don't understand why anyone would be against OWpvp-specific dailies+weekly to incentivize the pvp instances.
   
2. Just because a player gets jumped/ganked from doesn't mean the player can't turn it around on the attacker.
   

 

EU pvpers seem to be capable of organizing their pastime, US pvpers want the devs to hold their hands. NOTHING is stopping pvpers from doing owpvp. If people wanted to do it, they would. if you have to annoy people for them to play with you, thats your problem. schedule and announce time for people to be at a certain area at a certain date and time in a pvp instance, if there are people that want to owpvp, they will come.

 

@ivan: Planned OWpvp? Why can't it happen naturally? I can't imagine "scheduling" OWpvp. Is that really your answer?

Edited April 24, 2017 by Rion_Starkiller

[Soljin]

1. @ivan: Planned OWpvp? Why can't it happen naturally? I can't imagine "scheduling" OWpvp. Is that really your answer?
   

 

If this is directed at me then my response is that was one part of a bigger example of how OWPvP could be supported/managed.

 

It seems strange to me that out of all the concepts surrounding setting a destructible player owned PvP base that (scheduling) it was the part you focused on...

 

That part could easily be changed depending on the scenario...The reason for the base only going active for a few hours a week is so that the opposing faction doesn't destroy it at 2am off hours when nobody is online to defend...

 

Unfortunately you do have to put things in place to make sure the system is not abused or "exploited".

Edited April 24, 2017 by Soljin

[TUXs]

I think you may be operating under the assumption that this game has done enough to keep a PVP presence substantial enough to support anything but instanced War Zones.

 

In the early days we did have OWPVP it just failed due to poor choices in Ilum and the server struggling to support large numbers...The vast majority of the PvP oriented players left....

 

I have said in several other posts that in its current form OWPVP in this game is not likely, I have made suggestions about how we could possibly improve participation...What I have not done is said that I have a personal interest in OWPVP in this game...Because I could care less

 

I'm just trying to further the topic of this thread via ideas and discussion. I think it gets a bit twisted when people begin to expect me to solve the OWPVP issue or admit defeat in some way...Its not my thread or my problem, I'm just contributing to the topic.

 

I don't have the perfect answer or the absolute debate winning response...that is not the point. What have you contributed to this topic? other than trying to snuff it out because you clearly dislike OWPVP...

Keep going Soljin! Don't let the same negative people get to you...they've made their views known, keep making yours!!!

[Talon_strikes]

PVP does not necessarily mean WPVP, though. There is a huge difference between WPVP and instanced PVP.

 

I have no doubt that instanced PVP remains popular among some of the players. This would also explain why Fatman was heavily populated in its prime, ans why Harbinger is heavily populated now. Instanced PVP relies upon the LFG tool, which in turn relies upon having interested bodies queuing. I'd bet that even in its prime, most of the PVP activity on Fatman was instanced PVP, not WPVP.

 

It is the gankfest that is WPVP that seems to have very few interested players and which most players seem to be avoiding like the proverbial plague, even many of the players who enjoy and actively engage in instanced PVP. IMO, that is NOT a BW problem, nor something caused by BW "PVP mismanagement".

The reason for my bringing up the PvP servers was to discredit the ridiculous notion of "PvP servers died first!!!111!!11!!1!" narrative from the PvE snowflakes.

 

Instanced PvP is kind of off-topic, but I'll bite. The Fatman being the largest server (possibly only 2nd to Harb) was the fact that it was the community's go-to server for dead server refugees.

 

But overall, this IS a BW problem. "Gankers" never killed WPvP, BW did with their continual mismanagement of it.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Talon_strikes