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Clear DPS problem for several classes please fix

ottffsse

By ottffsse
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ottffsse

ottffsse

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With new operation and raid content coming in 5.2 (which is great news) I think this issue has to be addressed. Anyways it has been months into 5.x and most people who seriously raid hard mode+ ops have long geared their characters to 240-242 top tier and done extensive tests and actual results in op raids also confirm this. There is a clear greater than 15% damage discrepancy output range between top and low / flop dps specs currently, sometimes greater up to 20% even!.

 

http://parsely.io/parser/stats

 

Plasmatech/Pyrotech and both sage sorcerer specs especially dot spec are severely lacking dps output for end game content. And a few rDPS specs (Saboteur / Engineering, Assault Specialist / Innovative Ordnance) are performing slightly better than top flight dps melee counterparts like Sentinal/Marauder Watchman/Annihilation or the not so top flight Shadow Serenity/ Hatred - which by all logic should be the reverse given it is in most cases somewhat easier to consistently dps at range than in melee. But that is a slighter discrepancy compared to what is happening with Plasmatech and the sorc/sages at the moment. "Sad" is the only word that describes those three specs with ample justice.

Edited by ottffsse
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Zhedzaban

Zhedzaban

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Could not agree more. I've mained a lightning sorc since launch yet whenever I want to do group play I gotta change to heals because no one wants to bring garbage dps. I've read some dps guides stating that even tho the sorc/sage dps is lacking, they bring so much utility to the raid. That really makes me laugh.

 

Lightning sorc for me is the most fun class to play, but outside of questing I don't play that spec anymore. It used to be less than adequate in warzones, well they are a complete joke now. C'mon BW give us the massive dps boost we need, I'd gladly trade off some 'utility' to get it.

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ottffsse

ottffsse

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Could not agree more. I've mained a lightning sorc since launch yet whenever I want to do group play I gotta change to heals because no one wants to bring garbage dps. I've read some dps guides stating that even tho the sorc/sage dps is lacking, they bring so much utility to the raid. That really makes me laugh.

 

Lightning sorc for me is the most fun class to play, but outside of questing I don't play that spec anymore. It used to be less than adequate in warzones, well they are a complete joke now. C'mon BW give us the massive dps boost we need, I'd gladly trade off some 'utility' to get it.

 

"Utility" in a raid or any setting today really means REFLECT. Get that. Guess who has no reflect? Along with already subpar dps output - you guessed it Sorcs and Powerechs yet again. They really ignored Sorcs and powertechs this patch unfortunately - no new useful abilities and scale up to damage while other disciplines got that.

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rylanadionysis

rylanadionysis

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You all do realize that there isnt a single piece of content in this game that requires the raid to have more than 30k total dps right? (yes even the hardest NiM bosses can be beaten before getting to enrage by less than 30k DPS, if youre getting to enrage in this patch, someone in your group is doing 2k DPS, seriously, that or your group is not correctly geared or experienced)

 

Seriously, not a one. Know what that comes out to? 7.5k DPS per DD (assuming main/offtank and 2 healers in an 8 man for 4 DD's)

 

You could quite literally run four lightning sorc DPS and complete any content even on the highest modes.

 

Why people are so obsessed with 9k+ is legitimately beyond me, bragging rights? Shaving 30 seconds off a boss fight at most? I mean lets be real here, there are no DPS checks the a quartet of the lowest averages could not complete successfully.

 

Not to say sorc doesnt need some fixing up, but labeling classes "garbage" is complete and utter stupidity.

Edited by rylanadionysis
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ottffsse

ottffsse

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You all do realize that there isnt a single piece of content in this game that requires the raid to have more than 30k total dps right? (yes even the hardest NiM bosses can be beaten before getting to rage mode by less than 30k DPS, if youre getting to rage mode in this patch, someone in your group is doing 2k DPS, seriously)

 

Seriously, not a one. Know what that comes out to? 7.5k DPS per DD (assuming main/offtank and 2 healers in an 8 man for 4 DD's)

 

You could quite literally run four lightning sorc DPS and complete any content even on the highest modes.

 

Why people are so obsessed with 9k+ is legitimately beyond me, bragging rights? Shaving 30 seconds off a boss fight at most? I mean lets be real here, there are no DPS checks the a quartet of the lowest averages could not complete successfully.

 

Not to say sorc doesnt need some fixing up, but labeling classes "garbage" is complete and utter stupidity.

 

That is not quite an accurate assessment of the situation I am afraid. Sure you need about 7.5K effective dps in a boss fight. That 7.5K is achievable in certain fights only if you are going maybe 9K+ or more on a static dummy but not if you you are around 8.5K average and bellow or thereabouts on static dummy which certain dps classes are at the moment.

 

Raid averages on parsley confirm this. As Operatives/ Snipers who average 10K on dummy average average best on actual ops bosses at the moment (at 8k+) in top tier while the average dps on ops bosses from sorcs sages is about 6.xK (lowest) even in top tier atm with powertechs slightly higher due to them having at least one spec that has average and not abysmal dps output. So no 4 sorcs/ pyrotechs dps will not in most likelihood clear dps checks on a few hm or in NiM. You can clear them in "theory" 7Kx4=28K dps but not in practice.

 

And this misses the point anyways as in relation to other specs certain specs at the bottom are "garbage" that is the point. I understand an average 10% even 12% dps discrepancy between top and bottom specs but not when it is pushing 17-over 20% which it is now.

Edited by ottffsse
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rylanadionysis

rylanadionysis

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That is not quite an accurate assessment of the situation I am afraid. Sure you need about 7.5K effective dps in a boss fight. That 7.5K is achievable in certain fights only if you are going maybe 9K+ or more on a static dummy but not if you you are around 8.5K average and bellow or thereabouts on static dummy which certain dps classes are at the moment.

 

Raid averages on parsley confirm this. As Operatives/ Snipers who average 10K on dummy average average best on actual ops bosses at the moment (at 8k+) in top tier while the average dps on ops bosses from sorcs sages is about 6.xK (lowest) even in top tier atm with powertechs slightly higher due to them having at least one spec that has average and not abysmal dps output.

 

And in relation to other specs certain specs at the bottom are "garbage" that is the point. I understand an average 10% even 12% dps discrepancy between top and bottom specs but not when it is pushing 17-over 20% which it is now.

 

The threshold for enrage is quite lower than overall 30k, i was using that as an example figure so I didnt have to round. 27.5 is more accurate, and even still, it would take the lowest of all DPS specs, in quartet, to fail that check. And not by much, mind, as this doesnt take into consideration any damage the tanks or heals might add (which is usually significant, attributing 3-5k raid wide depending on how pressured the heals are)

 

I get what youre saying overall, the sentiment, that some classes are weaker than others presently, to varying degrees, but the environment doesnt require them to be any higher than they are. If anything, those pushing 10k+ are overpowered vs the others being underpowered.

 

Snipes, mandos, operatives in DD specs, may need to be downtuned vs going the other way.

Edited by rylanadionysis
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Gyronamics

Gyronamics

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With new operation and raid content coming in 5.2 (which is great news) I think this issue has to be addressed. Anyways it has been months into 5.x and most people who seriously raid hard mode+ ops have long geared their characters to 240-242 top tier and done extensive tests and actual results in op raids also confirm this. There is a clear greater than 15% damage discrepancy output range between top and low / flop dps specs currently, sometimes greater up to 20% even!.

 

http://parsely.io/parser/stats

 

Plasmatech/Pyrotech and both sage sorcerer specs especially dot spec are severely lacking dps output for end game content. And a few rDPS specs (Saboteur / Engineering, Assault Specialist / Innovative Ordnance) are performing slightly better than top flight dps melee counterparts like Sentinal/Marauder Watchman/Annihilation or the not so top flight Shadow Serenity/ Hatred - which by all logic should be the reverse given it is in most cases somewhat easier to consistently dps at range than in melee. But that is a slighter discrepancy compared to what is happening with Plasmatech and the sorc/sages at the moment. "Sad" is the only word that describes those three specs with ample justice.

 

A sample of one parse? A sample of 3 parses?

 

Lets call it data and stuff it in the argument, who's gonna look at the details right? Right?

 

Lets not use the theoryparse thread where ideal dps is worked out: http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8558149&postcount=2

 

Lets not do some first hand collecting of info by getting players who play specs well to parse properly for it.

 

Lets not do that, lets grab a low sample size list with no enforced standards and no checking of parsing and wave it about like its real data.

 

SOUNDS LIKE A PLAN.

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ottffsse

ottffsse

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Don't exaggerate please for most specs there are 30+ parses on each discipline but there are some exceptions. Where are all the pyrotechs I wonder...hmmmmm??? And it provides a more accurate realistic picture in comparison to bant theory numbers (which are not too different from the parses on parsely btw). Sure you will have more "skilled" and less skilled players doing the parses but even that averages out on all disciplines and some clear patterns are seen. Edited by ottffsse
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mmmbuddah

mmmbuddah

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You all do realize that there isnt a single piece of content in this game that requires the raid to have more than 30k total dps right? (yes even the hardest NiM bosses can be beaten before getting to enrage by less than 30k DPS, if youre getting to enrage in this patch, someone in your group is doing 2k DPS, seriously, that or your group is not correctly geared or experienced)

 

Seriously, not a one. Know what that comes out to? 7.5k DPS per DD (assuming main/offtank and 2 healers in an 8 man for 4 DD's)

 

You could quite literally run four lightning sorc DPS and complete any content even on the highest modes.

 

Why people are so obsessed with 9k+ is legitimately beyond me, bragging rights? Shaving 30 seconds off a boss fight at most? I mean lets be real here, there are no DPS checks the a quartet of the lowest averages could not complete successfully.

 

Not to say sorc doesnt need some fixing up, but labeling classes "garbage" is complete and utter stupidity.

 

Plasmatech doesnt even have that. ..... so they need a significant buff.

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ottffsse

ottffsse

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The threshold for enrage is quite lower than overall 30k, i was using that as an example figure so I didnt have to round. 27.5 is more accurate, and even still, it would take the lowest of all DPS specs, in quartet, to fail that check. And not by much, mind, as this doesnt take into consideration any damage the tanks or heals might add (which is usually significant, attributing 3-5k raid wide depending on how pressured the heals are)

 

I get what youre saying overall, the sentiment, that some classes are weaker than others presently, to varying degrees, but the environment doesnt require them to be any higher than they are. If anything, those pushing 10k+ are overpowered vs the others being underpowered.

 

Snipes, mandos, operatives in DD specs, may need to be downtuned vs going the other way.

 

This is what I was looking for:

 

http://ixparse.com/rating/?boss=&mode=HM&size=8M&class=&order=rating&dir=d

 

To this date even the 99% percentile of sorc/ sages can't hit 7K in actual hard mode ops boss encounter. So no beating enrage will not happen with multiple sorc/sage dps in some hm/ NiM encounters.

 

As for Vanguards, their actual average numbers are better in the graph as they have at least 1 spec that is "average" and not abysmal (Plasmatech) dps.

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Kiesu

Kiesu

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It amazes me how anyone thought giving ranged dps higher dmg output than melee would be a good idea, melee has more dps downtime anyway why reduce it even further? Edited by Kiesu
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bdatt

bdatt

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It amazes me how anyone thought giving ranged dps higher dmg output than melee would be a good idea, melee has more dps downtime anyway why reduce it even further?

 

Maybe I'm better at melee than ranged, but I don't feel this way. Even on fights with frequent switches, the global cooldown is plenty to reorient if you plan right. I suffer as ranged more moving out of red in the middle of a cast/channel.

 

So unless I want to eat some avoidable damage, ignore mechanics, or get irrelevant fluff, I find melee to have better uptime. Ranged will start to outshine as players outgear content and start trying to get top numbers ignoring mechanics and eating avoidable damage because it no longer matters.

 

Yes some fight mechanics punish having too many melee, but this was in response to the comment about uptime and raw output.

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Vember

Vember

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How would you improve Sorc/Sage, PT/VG dps?

 

Back in the days of Everequest, Necromancers and Shaman DoT's did the most damage of any abilities in the game, by a huge margin. But they delivered that damage over time, which made sense. Nowadays, dots FULL damage does less than a single direct damage attack, which is just stupid. So dot damage needs to be drastically increased OR their run time needs to be cut by 75%.

 

But Plasmatech's biggest problem is their crap survivability and terrible energy management system.

Edited by Vember
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Lionflash

Lionflash

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But Plasmatech's biggest problem is their crap survivability and terrible energy management system.

 

Maybe it's time for sonic rebounder to also include your character for a few seconds. Every other class has a vanish/leave me alone button except VGs/PTs

Edited by Lionflash
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Vember

Vember

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Maybe it's time for sonic rebounder to also include your character for a few seconds. Every other class has a vanish/leave me alone button except VGs/PTs

 

Everyone else also has a reflect, but not PT. Makes no sense for Sonic Rebounder to not affect them as well.

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ottffsse

ottffsse

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Yeah that should be the "theory".

 

Dot specs should have higher sustain than burst dps specs, with the melee dot specs serenity, watchman, and ruffian being on par with Ruffian spec as it is currently.

 

Ranged dot sorc, sniper and merc should be slightly bellow in terms of consistent dps output then the melee dot specs (3-5%) but higher than burst specs, melee or ranged.

All "burst" dps specs slightly bellow (5-10%) of the dps output of the dot specs ... but this depends on the calibre of the burst (for instance mm/ss sniper even in it's current state has its uses for burst dps scenarios) , again, with melee slighly theoretically higher than ranged dpsers.

 

This is approximate estimations. But it would certainly be more "sane" than the current range.

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Costello

Costello

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It would be nice if the combat team (intern) realized that any fight that forces you off target for whatever reason and there are plenty cause a significant drop in non dot spec mdps.

 

I appreciate its a poor intern but he seems to work out all the damage specs through theory crafting not taking into consideration that sometimes its simply impossible to do that in the live game. But sadly I don't think they have the skill or the desire to balance the classes or even make every class viable in pve content.

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iDahj

iDahj

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I can live with the different dot spread moves on my merc. My issue is the cost in using the abilities use them more than every so often and your heat gets blown. I would just have a small heat refund on a per enemy the dot is spread to and maybe make it costlier to use, to punish someone trying to use them vs single target more.

 

Maybe that would make io merc too good against the ops bosses with lots of adds.

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realleaftea

realleaftea

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The 1.5m ranking (to preserve the current state):

 

Assault Specialist / Innovative Ordnance: 8,34

Saboteur / Engineering: 8,10

Ruffian / Lethality: 6,33

Combat / Carnage: 4,20

Dirty Fighting / Virulence: 3,85

Infiltration / Deception: 3,15

Watchman / Annihilation: 2,55

Tactics / Advanced Prototype: 0,64

Scrapper / Concealment: 0,58

Gunnery / Arsenal: -0,42

Vigilance / Vengeance: -1,27

Concentration / Fury: -2,05

Focus / Rage: -2,27

Serenity / Hatred: -2,85

Sharpshooter / Marksmanship: -5,73

Balance / Madness: -7,52

Plasmatech / Pyrotech: -7,67

Telekinetics / Lightning: -7,95

 

Plasmatech/Pyrotech and both sage sorcerer specs especially dot spec are severely lacking dps output for end game content. And a few rDPS specs (Saboteur / Engineering, Assault Specialist / Innovative Ordnance) are performing slightly better than top flight dps melee counterparts like Sentinal/Marauder Watchman/Annihilation or the not so top flight Shadow Serenity/ Hatred - which by all logic should be the reverse given it is in most cases somewhat easier to consistently dps at range than in melee.

Annihilation DoTs only last for 9sec or less, so it wouldn't be fair to put it in the same category as other 24s DoT specs. And in most cases, melee classes can deal consistent damage in PvE as well. In regard of PvP, other aspects are way more important than a 1,5m DPS parse. Nevertheless, it's still fair to state that the overall discrepancy needs to be addressed.

Edited by realleaftea
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