jstankaroslo Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 https://youtu.be/zawBaUxBX7w?t=8m1s The guy says: "we didn't want to make the combat too hard to pull people away from story, on the other hand we didn't want to make it so simplistic that people'll find it lacking" sounds like a good balance to me. It was ok before. Since 4.0 however, so for the past 18 months I find it lacking in original leveling content I personally gave up on that (and unsubbed -probably my last day on the forums), then I'm watching this video on your facebook and can't help myself to create this one last post. revisit the gameplay from starter planets up to Ilum. see for yourselves. It's not okay now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airehn Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) The original content is 5 years old and no longer relevant. The game has changed since then, and BW has made it so that you can steam roll the old stuff, in order to get to current content. All MMO's do this. It doesn't make it right, and it doesn't make it wrong. It's just the way it is. Online games are not the same as old console titles that you can pop in years later and try to re create the same experience that you remember. Abilities get pruned, enemies get nerfed, and classes get balanced. You can't watch a video from 1.0 and compare it to 5.1. The game in the video no longer exists in that form. But as to your original question, they should have had those same concerns when they made ET and FE. The game doesn't feel the same for me as it did then. The chapters were good, yes, but 1.0 was just simply amazing. Sometimes I think about looking to see if there is a private server somewhere like players do for vanilla WoW. Edited February 21, 2017 by Airehn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuiwe Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 The original content is 5 years old and no longer relevant. The game has changed since then, and BW has made it so that you can steam roll the old stuff, in order to get to current content. All MMO's do this. It doesn't make it right, and it doesn't make it wrong. It's just the way it is. Online games are not the same as old console titles that you can pop in years later and try to re create the same experience that you remember. Abilities get pruned, enemies get nerfed, and classes get balanced. You can't watch a video from 1.0 and compare it to 5.1. The game in the video no longer exists in that form. But as to your original question, they should have had those same concerns when they made ET and FE. The game doesn't feel the same for me as it did then. The chapters were good, yes, but 1.0 was just simply amazing. Sometimes I think about looking to see if there is a private server somewhere like players do for vanilla WoW. 3,0 or so is perfect for me. Maybe with 4,0 changes to Tank companion skills and effectiveness. But I agree, the game is TOO EASY right now. And, no, the solution is not what they did with the Veteran mode. There has got to be a middle ground(that's what most people want anyways). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halinalle Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Problem is that you think that video is talking about 4.x. It's not about difficulty in 4.x. Back then you could easily overlevel everything on lower levels planets and only rarely take very minimal damage (99,99% of the time you didn't take any damage) and could therefore solo WBs and even some of the bosses in operations. Do you want that back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) Problem is that you think that video is talking about 4.x. It's not about difficulty in 4.x. Back then you could easily overlevel everything on lower levels planets and only rarely take very minimal damage (99,99% of the time you didn't take any damage) and could therefore solo WBs and even some of the bosses in operations.Blatantly false. What game were you playing? Because it wasn't this one. Back then you could not easily overlevel everything on lower levels planets. Before level sync there was never a situation where a character was leaving Coruscant and arriving on Taris at level 30. Back then taking damage actually hurt. H4s and planet Flashpoints were a challenge for level appropriate groups (Flashpoints in particular). Back then WBs and Operations bosses could not be solo'd unless you were returning as a OP level capped character; and even then most Ops boss fight mechanics required more that one player to complete. Do you want that back? Hell yes I want that back! Here are but a few choice examples of how real MMOs do it: Level Sync Is an optional mode players can toggle in and out of for mentoring purposes. SWTOR's take: implemented full time allowing the devs to recycle existing open world content so they don't have to add new open world content. Leveling Dungeons & Raids (Flashpoints & Operations) They forever remain as part of the leveling experience. When they are recycled the original content remains intact while what's recycled is level sync'd and added to the game as an optional progression route (WoW calls it Timewalking) ... it doesn't outright replace the game. SWTOR's take: implemented full time and outright replaced the game allowing the devs to recycle existing Flashpoints and Operations so they didn't have to add new ones. Progression Please allow me to reintroduce everyone to that most MMO of terms ... "on farm." On farm means knowing what you're hunting, knowing where to find what you're hunting, knowing what the trophy will be for completing the hunt, and then becoming adept enough over time to (re)execute the hunt so as to come away with the trophy with increasing ease and efficiency. Having content "on farm" is the greatest progression measuring stick for raiders ... guilds especially. It takes months to achieve and requires skill, teamwork and repetition (practice makes perfect!) Improved gear is merely an acquisition objective along the way that leads to achieving the goal, which is progressing to the next level of difficulty. RNG? The only RNG in the old system was a d8 to d12 roll that determined a specific and guaranteed drop's stats. Otherwise there was nothing RNG about any of it. If you wanted a certian piece you knew exactly where to go to earn it. You could plan your character's progression that way. That's what real MMOs allow their players to do, and what we had prior to 4.0. Gear came from progression and progression came from practice ... first learning boss fight complexities then building synergy with other players by learning to mate our character's strengths and weaknesses with the strength's and weaknesses of other characters. We practiced in not so good gear until we became good enough to start dropping bosses which then gave us the gear we needed to progress to the next level of difficulty. The grind was in the content learning and teamwork mastering processes, not the gearing system. From a historical perspective circa 2014 ... it all started with the leveling planets where PvE characters leveled up in tiers on each planet: open world exploration + class / companion story & planet missions → planet heroic 2s → planet heroic 4s → planet flashpoint. In this original level progression system characters had a hard time outleveling planets, and if they did it wasn't by much. Players who preferred to focus on solo story could level through that while players who enjoyed leveling through challenging group content could do that as well. There was plenty of game there to accommodate both. Each planet had its own mini-elder game (H2s and H4s) and mini-end game (flashpoints). Group players (including 2 players + companions) would complete each planet's elder and end games before going to the next planet, while solo players would usually play up through elder game, go to the next planet for a few levels and come back to run the previous planet's end game flashpoint solo with a companion once they upgraded their gear. Running flashpoints solo at 5+ levels above the flashpoint's listed level range provided solo players with a challenge similar to what group players experienced when they were running it level appropriate, and still provided drops they could use because the flashpoint boss loot tables and comm system were balanced to carry a player through to the next planet's elder game. We similarly progressed through HMs and bonus or heroic zones like BH, SX, CZ and Ziost to reach PvE end game ... Operations: first normal, then HM then NiM. We progressed through content difficulty levels, with item levels and cleared end boss achievements being the gateway to more difficult content ... not some misplaced RPG-centric and promiscuously-focused XP grind. Throughout the entire MMO group PvE journey (not PvP, not GSF, not solo story) which culminated in operations, increasingly better gear was merely an earned reward intended to make further PvE group progression possible. Galactic Command is set up so that anyone can grind command ranks in disciplines that have nothing to do with PvE or group play to get Ops gear. The situation is akin to earning a drivers license from experience gained mowing lawns. That combined with frustration over the entire group play ecosystem's demise is why I won't pug ops any more. So between that and crates (which should stay in the CM where they belong), Galactic Command and MMO PvE progression are mutually exclusive in scope, scale and purpose. Being more suited as a solo track achievement system ... Galactic Command, CXP and RNG crates are ill-suited in any form as a MMO PvE progression system. Is the MMO Genre Dead? Nope. Truth is, the MMO genre is not dead ... just SWTOR's participation in the genre. Players who choose to not see past this game are free to do so, as long as they don't start taking pot shots at those who choose to not reside inside that bubble. All one has to do is stop drinking the koolaid to see it. Edited February 22, 2017 by GalacticKegger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Here are but as few choice examples of how real MMOs do it: Level Sync Is an optional mode players can toggle in and out of for mentoring purposes. SWTOR's take: implemented full time allowing the devs to recycle existing open world content so they don't have to add new open world content. Leveling Dungeons & Raids (Flashpoints & Operations) They forever remain as part of the leveling experience. When they are recycled the original content remains intact while what's recycled is level sync'd and added to the game as an optional progression route (WoW calls it Timewalking) ... it doesn't outright replace the game. SWTOR's take: implemented full time and outright replaced the game allowing the devs to recycle existing Flashpoints and Operations so they didn't have to add new ones. Progression Please allow me to reintroduce everyone to that most MMO of terms ... "on farm." On farm means knowing what you're hunting, knowing where to find what you're hunting, knowing what the trophy will be for completing the hunt, and then becoming adept enough over time to (re)execute the hunt so as to come away with the trophy with increasing ease and efficiency. Having content "on farm" is the greatest progression measuring stick for raiders ... guilds especially. It takes months to achieve and requires skill, teamwork and repetition (practice makes perfect!). Improved gear is merely an acquisition objective along the way that leads to achieving the goal, which is progressing to the next level of difficulty. RNG? The only RNG in the old system was a d8 to d12 roll that determined a specific and guaranteed drop's stats. Otherwise there was nothing RNG about any of it. If you wou wanted a certian piece you knew exactly where to go to earn it. You could plan your character's progression that way. That's what real MMOs allow their players to do, and what we had prior to 4.0. Gear came from progression and progression came from practice ... first learning boss fight complexities then building synergy with other players by learning to mate our character's strengths and weaknesses with the strength's and weaknesses of other characters. We practiced in not so good gear until we became good enough to start dropping bosses which then gave us the gear we needed to progress to the next level of difficulty. The grind was in the content learning and teamwork mastering processes, not the gearing system. From a historical perspective circa 2014 ... it all started with the leveling planets where PvE characters leveled up in tiers on each planet: open world exploration + class / companion story & planet missions → planet heroic 2s → planet heroic 4s → planet flashpoint. In this original level progression system characters had a hard time outleveling planets, and if they did it wasn't by much. Players who preferred to focus on solo story could level through that while players who enjoyed leveling through challenging group content could do that as well. There was plenty of game there to accommodate both. Each planet had its own mini-elder game (H2s and H4s) and mini-end game (flashpoints). Group players (including 2 players + companions) would complete each planet's elder and end games before going to the next planet, while solo players would usually play up through elder game, go to the next planet for a few levels and come back to run the previous planet's end game flashpoint solo with a companion once they upgraded their gear. Running flashpoints solo at 5+ levels above the flashpoint's listed level range provided solo players with a challenge similar to what group players experienced when they were running it level appropriate, and still provided drops they could use because the flashpoint boss loot tables and comm system were balanced to carry a player through to the next planet's elder game. We similarly progressed through HMs and bonus or heroic zones like BH, SX, CZ and Ziost to reach PvE end game ... Operations: first normal, then HM then NiM. We progressed through content difficulty levels, with item levels and cleared end boss achievements being the gateway to more difficult content ... not some misplaced RPG-centric and promiscuously-focused XP grind. Throughout the entire MMO group PvE journey (not PvP, not GSF, not solo story) which culminated in operations, increasingly better gear was merely an earned reward intended to make further PvE group progression possible. Galactic Command is set up so that anyone can grind command ranks in disciplines that have nothing to do with PvE or group play to get Ops gear. The situation is akin to earning a drivers license from experience gained mowing lawns. That combined with frustration over the entire group play ecosystem's demise is why I won't pug ops any more. So between that and crates (which should stay in the CM where they belong), Galactic Command and MMO PvE progression are mutually exclusive in scope, scale and purpose. Being more suited as a solo track achievement system ... Galactic Command, CXP and RNG crates are ill-suited in any form as a MMO PvE progression system. Is the MMO Genre Dead? Nope. Truth is, the MMO genre is not dead ... just SWTOR's participation in the genre. Players who choose to not see past this game are free to do so, as long as they don't start taking pot shots at those who choose to not reside inside that bubble. All one has to do is stop drinking the koolaid to see it. I agree so freaking much with everything you've stated that I just have to quote you and tell you how brilliant this post is...in so many ways. GREAT post!!! The only part I take issue with was the part I snipped out. Over leveling in the past put you on God mode for lower level content. I prefer Level Sync how it is over how it was, but your reasoning for why it was done this way is 100% right. I believe Bioware was smart to introduce a way to make the H2 and H4 content easily accessible to end game players, because it was a LOT of missed/wasted content for leveling players...but you're right...replacing what they had rather than offering a new end game option was a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) I agree so freaking much with everything you've stated that I just have to quote you and tell you how brilliant this post is...in so many ways. GREAT post!!!Thank you. The only part I take issue with was the part I snipped out. Over leveling in the past put you on God mode for lower level content. I prefer Level Sync how it is over how it was, but your reasoning for why it was done this way is 100% right. To overlevel a planet the player had to play through everything: class story, planet story, side missions, H2s and H4s. With Legacy XP boosts they could bypass the side missions and heroics, and stick to the class and planet stories. But realistically the player had to want to outlevel a planet to do so. Level sync should be an optional mode that players can switch instances to play similar to open world PvP. As far as God mode ... who cares? Players worried about quest mobs being ninja'd? That was never a problem. Besides, sometimes after a rough day at the office, sitting down with a scotch and facerolling grey content - especially farming customs in the old flashpoints and HMs - was a welcome channel changer. I believe Bioware was smart to introduce a way to make the H2 and H4 content easily accessible to end game players, because it was a LOT of missed/wasted content for leveling players...but you're right...replacing what they had rather than offering a new end game option was a mistake.A reboot to 2.10 with 3.x and 4.x QoL changes would be perfect imho; then divest Ben, his team and the SoR, KotFE and KotET expansions into the single player KOTOR III that Bioware was aiming for. For this change I would suffer (and subscribe) through a year of no new content while they reconstituted the MMO department. Edited February 21, 2017 by GalacticKegger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Level sync should be an optional mode that players can switch instances to play similar to open world PvP. As far as God mode ... who cares? Players worried about quest mobs being ninja'd? That was never a problem. Besides, sometimes after a rough day at the office, sitting down with a scotch and facerolling grey content - especially farming customs in the old flashpoints and HMs - was a welcome channel changer.Don't misunderstand...I LOVED that too. I liked default attacking everything and walking through mobs without getting any agro. All I was trying to say was that Level Sync makes it so that everything could kill you now (yes, you'd need to be AFK for some of it), whereas previously, once you were 5+ levels ahead, it couldn't even touch you. Personally, I am quite happy with how Level Sync works...it's all still easy and I'm able to do the one thing I love more than anything else in an MMO...I get to help players of ANY level...but I also agree, it should be a toggle and it was added because Bioware was trying to recycle old content in the laziest way they could. Sadly...one size seldom fits all in an MMO... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstankaroslo Posted February 21, 2017 Author Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) Blatantly false. What game were you playing? Because it wasn't this one. Back then you could not easily overlevel everything on lower levels planets. Before level sync there was never a situation where a character was leaving Coruscant and arriving on Taris at level 30. Back then taking damage actually hurt. H4s and planet Flashpoints were a challenge for level appropriate groups (Flashpoints in particular). Back then WBs and Operations bosses could not be solo'd unless you were returning as a OP level capped character; and even then most Ops boss fight mechanics required more that one player to complete. Hell yes I want that back! Here are but as few choice examples of how real MMOs do it: Level Sync Is an optional mode players can toggle in and out of for mentoring purposes. SWTOR's take: implemented full time allowing the devs to recycle existing open world content so they don't have to add new open world content. Leveling Dungeons & Raids (Flashpoints & Operations) They forever remain as part of the leveling experience. When they are recycled the original content remains intact while what's recycled is level sync'd and added to the game as an optional progression route (WoW calls it Timewalking) ... it doesn't outright replace the game. SWTOR's take: implemented full time and outright replaced the game allowing the devs to recycle existing Flashpoints and Operations so they didn't have to add new ones. Progression Please allow me to reintroduce everyone to that most MMO of terms ... "on farm." On farm means knowing what you're hunting, knowing where to find what you're hunting, knowing what the trophy will be for completing the hunt, and then becoming adept enough over time to (re)execute the hunt so as to come away with the trophy with increasing ease and efficiency. Having content "on farm" is the greatest progression measuring stick for raiders ... guilds especially. It takes months to achieve and requires skill, teamwork and repetition (practice makes perfect!). Improved gear is merely an acquisition objective along the way that leads to achieving the goal, which is progressing to the next level of difficulty. RNG? The only RNG in the old system was a d8 to d12 roll that determined a specific and guaranteed drop's stats. Otherwise there was nothing RNG about any of it. If you wou wanted a certian piece you knew exactly where to go to earn it. You could plan your character's progression that way. That's what real MMOs allow their players to do, and what we had prior to 4.0. Gear came from progression and progression came from practice ... first learning boss fight complexities then building synergy with other players by learning to mate our character's strengths and weaknesses with the strength's and weaknesses of other characters. We practiced in not so good gear until we became good enough to start dropping bosses which then gave us the gear we needed to progress to the next level of difficulty. The grind was in the content learning and teamwork mastering processes, not the gearing system. From a historical perspective circa 2014 ... it all started with the leveling planets where PvE characters leveled up in tiers on each planet: open world exploration + class / companion story & planet missions → planet heroic 2s → planet heroic 4s → planet flashpoint. In this original level progression system characters had a hard time outleveling planets, and if they did it wasn't by much. Players who preferred to focus on solo story could level through that while players who enjoyed leveling through challenging group content could do that as well. There was plenty of game there to accommodate both. Each planet had its own mini-elder game (H2s and H4s) and mini-end game (flashpoints). Group players (including 2 players + companions) would complete each planet's elder and end games before going to the next planet, while solo players would usually play up through elder game, go to the next planet for a few levels and come back to run the previous planet's end game flashpoint solo with a companion once they upgraded their gear. Running flashpoints solo at 5+ levels above the flashpoint's listed level range provided solo players with a challenge similar to what group players experienced when they were running it level appropriate, and still provided drops they could use because the flashpoint boss loot tables and comm system were balanced to carry a player through to the next planet's elder game. We similarly progressed through HMs and bonus or heroic zones like BH, SX, CZ and Ziost to reach PvE end game ... Operations: first normal, then HM then NiM. We progressed through content difficulty levels, with item levels and cleared end boss achievements being the gateway to more difficult content ... not some misplaced RPG-centric and promiscuously-focused XP grind. Throughout the entire MMO group PvE journey (not PvP, not GSF, not solo story) which culminated in operations, increasingly better gear was merely an earned reward intended to make further PvE group progression possible. Galactic Command is set up so that anyone can grind command ranks in disciplines that have nothing to do with PvE or group play to get Ops gear. The situation is akin to earning a drivers license from experience gained mowing lawns. That combined with frustration over the entire group play ecosystem's demise is why I won't pug ops any more. So between that and crates (which should stay in the CM where they belong), Galactic Command and MMO PvE progression are mutually exclusive in scope, scale and purpose. Being more suited as a solo track achievement system ... Galactic Command, CXP and RNG crates are ill-suited in any form as a MMO PvE progression system. Is the MMO Genre Dead? Nope. Truth is, the MMO genre is not dead ... just SWTOR's participation in the genre. Players who choose to not see past this game are free to do so, as long as they don't start taking pot shots at those who choose to not reside inside that bubble. All one has to do is stop drinking the koolaid to see it. it was worth making this thread just to get the post like yours. Very well said On my side of things: I know mmo is a dynamic environment and need to be constantly changing. I just wish that with the changes they paid attention to older (but still very very cool) content -so that those changes do not make it dull. They should follow their own original credo and make it well balanced game play again. And H2's and H4s accessibility for everyone: there are no H4s now (except Aurora Cannon). These were my favorite parts of the leveling planets, now gone. And why? to make more missions for farming crates (or whatever it is they give these days). They made them easy, quick, 'streamlined' so that we would not complain that getting crates takes too long Edited February 21, 2017 by jstankaroslo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Divona Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) @GalacticKegger great post. I have been here since beta and i loved 1.0-3.0 and some parts of 4.0 but it went downhill fast from there on. You brought back good memories when i really enjoyed doing dailys and even FP's for rewards and comms. But i have given up we wont see ever again that game we had many years ago here. I have accepted that this game is on maintenance mode for some time now. And i also accept that big diehard BWA fans do not want to see that. They would want this game to be online and servers available as long as possible no matter in what state game actually is. But knowing EA this game wont run much longer if it starts to bleed subs too badly. Edited February 21, 2017 by Divona Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halinalle Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) Blatantly false. What game were you playing? Because it wasn't this one. Back then you could not easily overlevel everything on lower levels planets. Before level sync there was never a situation where a character was leaving Coruscant and arriving on Taris at level 30. Back then taking damage actually hurt. H4s and planet Flashpoints were a challenge for level appropriate groups (Flashpoints in particular). Back then WBs and Operations bosses could not be solo'd unless you were returning as a OP level capped character; and even then most Ops boss fight mechanics required more that one player to complete. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMs4CPzU7xQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArSvpU2CEhI Want me to continue? I've always left Coruscant at 21/22. Reason why I hated doing Taris was because of that one quest near the end of planet storyline. Edited February 21, 2017 by Halinalle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Divona Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMs4CPzU7xQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArSvpU2CEhI Want me to continue? I dont get what does this mean? Some classes could solo WB's if the level range was greater than 10 levels. I did that myself a lot. Some SM opses while being outleveled was also possible to solo for some classes (need heals) and with very good gear. That was the thrill actually you could try whatever your gear and class could handle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMs4CPzU7xQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArSvpU2CEhI Want me to continue?Thank you, but no need as you illustrated my point perfectly, which was ... ... Back then WBs and Operations bosses could not be solo'd unless you were returning as a OP level capped character ... So I won't bother going past the first video of a 50 BH (level cap at the time) soloing a level 18 World Boss from Dromund Kaas. Edited February 21, 2017 by GalacticKegger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 I dont get what does this mean?What don't you get??? Player A) "It was always easy, you could solo WBs" Player B) "FALSE! NEVER EVER could you do that" Player A) *links videos proving you could* You) "I don't get it" Me) "Huh?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) Thank you, but no need as you illustrated my point perfectly, which was ... So I won't bother going past the first video of a 50 BH (level cap at the time) soloing a level 18 World Boss from Dromund Kaas. The first video was a level 50 vs level 50... edit: I thought it was...I swear I saw 50 vs. 50...but it's not there when I just looked. Edited February 21, 2017 by TUXs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) The first video was a level 50 vs level 50... http://www.ign.com/wikis/star-wars-the-old-republic/The_First edit: I thought it was...I swear I saw 50 vs. 50...but it's not there when I just looked.No worries Edited February 21, 2017 by GalacticKegger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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