Thanks for Malavai Quinn. <3 <3 <3 This is a love thread, haters make your own lol.

[orangenee]

He didn't make the call. He had no choice.

 

He's with me, the most powerful Sith ever, or at least one of them. Baras sucks.

 

Mind you Quinn did make things a little too easy for us didn't he..........

 

He's a crafty lad.

 

maybe a little love choke will be punishment enough.

[Lammia]

He's with me, the most powerful Sith ever, or at least one of them. Baras sucks.

 

Mind you Quinn did make things a little too easy for us didn't he..........

 

He's a crafty lad.

 

maybe a little love choke will be punishment enough.

 

How can he know you're the most powerful? He can't judge that. He can observe, but how many he had a chance to see up close as you? All Sith are super-people to him, worthy of his devotion, because they're Sith, they're embodiment of the Empire, they are the Empire.

 

He admittedly miscalculated on Balmorra, so learnt you're above average, but Baras is a Dark Council member. He's one of the Big Twelve. Hardly a no-one.

 

But your posts reminded me that I regretted we have no influence on the story, and regardless of what we do, he stabs us in the back. Good, bad, egoistic or patriotic, no matter. And a bit like with Theron, in a case where he can't complain about what kind of person/Stih you are, there is nonsensically lack of explanation why he's doing it.

[LordFell]

The original writer's views do mess up my head-canon on this.

 

To my perspective....

 

If the truth was that Quinn's primary loyalty was to Baras, then that flies in the face of my Juggernaut's assumption that Quinn "was controlled."

 

Where this gets extra bad is... if Quinn's flaw is that he is above all else, loyal... his new loyalty would probably demand that he come clean. The in-private conversation would probably have gone something like...

"it's all right quinn. i understand you were controlled by baras." *

"Actually, my Lord. My true loyalty, despite my heart's yearning, was to Baras."

<sound of windpipe being turned into cartilage jelly.>

 

* my Juggernaut was originally intended to be mute. But, this turned out to be impossible. Consequently, she speaks as little as possible, and I only ever use lower-case letters; to give the impression her voice is quiet, or that she's mumbling. She is, by nature, shy... and the fact that her mouth and tongue have been just wrecked by her years as a slave makes her even more shy.

 

[Jagaimee]

And...here we go. Had to leave out a little at the beginning at his request, but gave me the impression that the whole betrayal scenario/conversation that was changed had made more sense with the "kill" option that got taken out.... (Everything in the spoiler tag is C&P straight from his message to me, so it's straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak.)

 

 

"But the long and short of it is that Quinn is loyal to an absolute fault. And unfortunately his loyalty to Baras long outdates his loyalty to you, even though the bond you've forged with him may be more real and based on deeper things. Baras literally saved Quinn's life, and, even more important to him, his career, at a time when he was only just starting out really, and all his dreams and hopes and great potential we're about to be dashed. So when you and Baras begin to cross swords, it's a truly awful crisis for him. In my mind, therefore, there was no need for Baras to use the force to make Quinn betray you. I tried to leave it open to interpretation that Quinn could have secretly programmed the war droids so the SW would be able to defeat them, and sprang the betrayal otherwise faithfully. He'd then be able to have honored or seemed to have honored his duty to Baras, while being "faithful" to you. And he'd of course be willing to pay the ultimate price for this conflict of interest he's responsible for. In my mind, he would not expect to survive the event, and would never divulge his true intentions. He is a man who understands sacrifice for integrity and principle. Even if he has to live now estranged from the one he admires, respects and even loves most."

 

A'right, so... after re-reading and analyzing the writer's words...um...

Purple Quinn's a bit discouraged. And confused.

 

Essentially - please correct me if I'm wrong, I really want to be wrong - Quinn is more loyal to Baras than the warrior, plan and simple. Betraying and trying to kill the warrior is a conflict for him, because he does at least love (...superficially) the warrior, but in the end his loyalty to Baras wins out and he carries out the betrayal "faithfully." Good little minion. Baras saved his life and his career, and Quinn responded by being utterly loyal to him for...ten years? Druckenwell and that whole mess was ten years ago, and Quinn's been stuck in a dead-end job on a never-ending warzone ever since. He's THAT grateful to Baras?? (...then again, Baras *is* a Sith. Quinn's a dedicated Imperial officer; he knows how dangerous it is to forget about or dismiss a Sith's act of kindness even years later. As Iokath showed, Sith can be infuriatingly petty.) And that makes Quinn's words on Iokath, if you bring up the betrayal, almost hypocritical: "I thought we had moved past that." ...yeah, what? YOU didn't move past a Sith saving your life TEN FLIPPIN' YEARS before you met the Warrior. Just...wha?

 

However, the way it's worded here - "I tried to leave it open to interpretation that Quinn could have secretly programmed the war droids so the SW would be able to defeat them, and sprang the betrayal otherwise faithfully. He'd then be able to have honored or seemed to have honored his duty to Baras, while being "faithful" to you." There's the loophole and room for headcanon. So Quinn decided "Okay, so Baras told me to kill my wife. I can half-heartedly do so and claim 'seeeee? Tried to! Didn't work!'" That's...a bit better, but still iffy (how's Baras ever going to know?) because it rather implies that Quinn's loyalty can be neatly compartmentalized - "Right, I carried out Baras's orders, so now I'm content to watch him die, 'tis all good here!" - and almost makes the man seem like he has a split-personality disorder or something.

 

So, all in all, what was the writer going for? That Quinn really is as much of a spineless coward/traitor as his haters like to paint him as? Because that's looking pretty likely. I think my love for Quinn just plummeted a whole lot...am I reading this all wrong? Are there loopholes that I can't see? I know I can just resort to headcanon for the whole thing, but this is irritating me.

 

[feylyndiira]

A'right, so... after re-reading and analyzing the writer's words...um...

Purple Quinn's a bit discouraged. And confused.

 

<snip>

So, all in all, what was the writer going for? That Quinn really is as much of a spineless coward/traitor as his haters like to paint him as? Because that's looking pretty likely. I think my love for Quinn just plummeted a whole lot...am I reading this all wrong? Are there loopholes that I can't see? I know I can just resort to headcanon for the whole thing, but this is irritating me.

 

I'm still in the process of asking him questions about Quinn and my most recent ones that I haven't heard back from him on yet are "Why did Baras single out Quinn to 'save'? Why did he stick him on Balmorra...and what was he doing there all that time?". I get the feeling that there was more going on than Quinn just cooling his heels for 10 years. I also think there was quite a bit more interaction between Quinn and Baras during the SW story than what we are shown. We don't know what was said or done by Baras to ensure Quinn stayed loyal. He might have had something over him. There might have been way more to the whole Balmorra thing than just saving him then leaving him there for the next 10 years.

 

You also have to keep in mind that the story had to be written for every possibility from romancing him to treating him like dirt. Neil did give me the impression that the conversation was very different back during beta when you had the option to kill him and it made more sense than what they had to change it last-minute to. So I think a bit of head-canon is required in order to fill in the background blanks for each individual character to justify why it happened.

 

I'm kind of weird, I guess, in that all this is really giving me a needed kick in the pants to keep writing my fanfic even though my head-canon didn't line up with his story in some ways. I'm having fun doing the mental gymnastics to try to reconcile and integrate both into my story. I'm glad that I hadn't started writing the betrayal yet...even though I'd already had how it was going to go down with my head-canon in my mind...because now I'm thinking of so many more possibilities of how to handle it knowing what I do now.

[Lunafox]

I'm still in the process of asking him questions about Quinn and my most recent ones that I haven't heard back from him on yet are "Why did Baras single out Quinn to 'save'? Why did he stick him on Balmorra...and what was he doing there all that time?". I get the feeling that there was more going on than Quinn just cooling his heels for 10 years. I also think there was quite a bit more interaction between Quinn and Baras during the SW story than what we are shown. We don't know what was said or done by Baras to ensure Quinn stayed loyal. He might have had something over him. There might have been way more to the whole Balmorra thing than just saving him then leaving him there for the next 10 years.

 

You also have to keep in mind that the story had to be written for every possibility from romancing him to treating him like dirt. Neil did give me the impression that the conversation was very different back during beta when you had the option to kill him and it made more sense than what they had to change it last-minute to. So I think a bit of head-canon is required in order to fill in the background blanks for each individual character to justify why it happened.

 

I'm kind of weird, I guess, in that all this is really giving me a needed kick in the pants to keep writing my fanfic even though my head-canon didn't line up with his story in some ways. I'm having fun doing the mental gymnastics to try to reconcile and integrate both into my story. I'm glad that I hadn't started writing the betrayal yet...even though I'd already had how it was going to go down with my head-canon in my mind...because now I'm thinking of so many more possibilities of how to handle it knowing what I do now.

 

This really has nothing to do with your comment, but you should tell him to write a novel about Malavai Quinn. He'd totally make a killing. Instant best sellers list guaranteed.

[feylyndiira]

This really has nothing to do with your comment, but you should tell him to write a novel about Malavai Quinn. He'd totally make a killing. Instant best sellers list guaranteed.

 

And I feel really dumb that I didn't realize who you were on Twitter until just now. :-P

[Lunafox]

And I feel really dumb that I didn't realize who you were on Twitter until just now. :-P

 

It's ok, my Twitter is under my actual name, totally not similar to my forum name I didn't actually recognize your name either until you posted about your questions. So, we're totally even.

[Nightfrogger]

I'm still in the process of asking him questions about Quinn and my most recent ones that I haven't heard back from him on yet are "Why did Baras single out Quinn to 'save'? Why did he stick him on Balmorra...and what was he doing there all that time?". I get the feeling that there was more going on than Quinn just cooling his heels for 10 years. I also think there was quite a bit more interaction between Quinn and Baras during the SW story than what we are shown. We don't know what was said or done by Baras to ensure Quinn stayed loyal. He might have had something over him. There might have been way more to the whole Balmorra thing than just saving him then leaving him there for the next 10 years.

 

You also have to keep in mind that the story had to be written for every possibility from romancing him to treating him like dirt. Neil did give me the impression that the conversation was very different back during beta when you had the option to kill him and it made more sense than what they had to change it last-minute to. So I think a bit of head-canon is required in order to fill in the background blanks for each individual character to justify why it happened.

 

I'm kind of weird, I guess, in that all this is really giving me a needed kick in the pants to keep writing my fanfic even though my head-canon didn't line up with his story in some ways. I'm having fun doing the mental gymnastics to try to reconcile and integrate both into my story. I'm glad that I hadn't started writing the betrayal yet...even though I'd already had how it was going to go down with my head-canon in my mind...because now I'm thinking of so many more possibilities of how to handle it knowing what I do now.

I can give you the warning about the betrayal if you want to give game quotes, there are a rediculous number of things he says depending on your choices, what you pick before the fight changes what he says after. I had to watch I think 8 different you tubes of it to see all of the dialog options. So you can probably find something you can make work with your headcannon. I know I did

 

Yes, I know my betrayal is way different then what Neil was thinking, but when I wrote it at the time I thought it could have been a valid possibility with so much clouding the whole affair. I am happy with where mine is and am not planning on changing it.

 

I am remembering a lecture in college about finding meanings in written works. Technically from a litterary stand point if you can come up with meaning in something and back it up with the story it is valid, reguardless of what the author intended. The whole is Moby Dick just a story about whaling or is it a satire of christianity arguement. Same idea.

[feylyndiira]

I can give you the warning about the betrayal if you want to give game quotes, there are a rediculous number of things he says depending on your choices, what you pick before the fight changes what he says after. I had to watch I think 8 different you tubes of it to see all of the dialog options. So you can probably find something you can make work with your headcannon. I know I did

Oh, I know. I was just going over all the dialogue options last night on TORCommunity and it's mind-boggling. I could've sworn that they still had the kill conversations there from the beta, but I guess I was wrong. I know that they still show some follow-up conversations with your companions later that happened if you killed him.

 

Yes, I know my betrayal is way different then what Neil was thinking, but when I wrote it at the time I thought it could have been a valid possibility with so much clouding the whole affair. I am happy with where mine is and am not planning on changing it.

Yeah, I've honestly bounced around with several possibilities. My head-canon as far as it goes is not set in stone because there are things in my story that I'm kind of letting play out by ear and unfold as I go. Plus, the more times I play through the story, the more little details I pick up on and want to try to integrate. So, I'm at a point where things could go either way, depending on how I handle what's left between now and then (my last chapter was Taris).

 

I am remembering a lecture in college about finding meanings in written works. Technically from a litterary stand point if you can come up with meaning in something and back it up with the story it is valid, reguardless of what the author intended. The whole is Moby Dick just a story about whaling or is it a satire of christianity arguement. Same idea.

 

So true! I personally enjoy reconciling what I think the author intended with my own ideas.

[grania]

Forgive me if this all sounds like gibberish, I'm half asleep.

 

I'm fairly confident Quinn and the warrior saved and protected each other multiple times before the betrayal, they had non-stop adventures before the betrayal occurred. That's all the arguing I feel like doing with Neil, because if his intent was for the warrior to love Quinn more than he loved her - mission accomplished, that is the sense I have of the story.

 

However the question it leaves me with, was Quinn always meant to be the love interest for the female warrior? I've heard that Corso was shoe-horned into that role after the story was mostly completed. Like, oopsie, women might play this game, pick a guy and give them mushy scenes together. Because Quinn stands out like a sore thumb from the other romances in the game.

 

Just because I obviously adore Quinn, and I've become comfortable with the story over the years, I'm really not sure why female warriors got a LI who loved them less. Especially in the context of the all the other romances. (Of course, had Pierce been picked to play the warrior's LI, I'd probably be playing WoW right now. )

 

Oh well. I can never really know what's in my real husband's mind, I just hope it's not "I really like my wife but I'd dump her if my boss told me to." How "romantic"

[feylyndiira]

Was doing a little thinking-in-the-shower and couldn't help but ponder something. Now this might open up a can of worms, but I hope not. I'm not trying to get political, just rattling a "what if" around in my mind.

 

 

But what if Quinn was female? Would the fact that he stood by Baras through everything make him a more sympathetic character? I ask this because we are always bombarded with stories of women who stay with and sometimes even defend their abusers. The recent news about Weinstein goes into this as well. So really, Baras is rather like Weinstein in that, though not sexually harassing Quinn, he is essentially holding his career...and possibly life....hostage. During his 10 years in Balmorra, who knows what was going on? It could have been an endless cycle of Baras constantly reminding him of how he owed him for his career and life. By the time the SW gains him as a crew member, he could have a serious case of Stockholm Syndrome where, no matter what Baras says or does, he's going to support him....whether overtly or secretly. And who knows what Baras offered him in exchange for the betrayal? Quinn went in knowing that his only options were to kill the SW or die. But once the SW spared him, perhaps that was the one thing that finally broke the conditioning.

 

I don't know....pretty much just turning things over in my head as they pop up. Hopefully will get more clarification on some things from Neil soon.

[grania]

Was doing a little thinking-in-the-shower and couldn't help but ponder something. Now this might open up a can of worms, but I hope not. I'm not trying to get political, just rattling a "what if" around in my mind.

 

 

But what if Quinn was female? Would the fact that he stood by Baras through everything make him a more sympathetic character? I ask this because we are always bombarded with stories of women who stay with and sometimes even defend their abusers. The recent news about Weinstein goes into this as well. So really, Baras is rather like Weinstein in that, though not sexually harassing Quinn, he is essentially holding his career...and possibly life....hostage. During his 10 years in Balmorra, who knows what was going on? It could have been an endless cycle of Baras constantly reminding him of how he owed him for his career and life. By the time the SW gains him as a crew member, he could have a serious case of Stockholm Syndrome where, no matter what Baras says or does, he's going to support him....whether overtly or secretly. And who knows what Baras offered him in exchange for the betrayal? Quinn went in knowing that his only options were to kill the SW or die. But once the SW spared him, perhaps that was the one thing that finally broke the conditioning.

 

I don't know....pretty much just turning things over in my head as they pop up. Hopefully will get more clarification on some things from Neil soon.

 

Sounds as legit as anything, to me. But why? Why would this be a good idea as a love interest/spouse for a player character in a video game? (I don't mean to sound like I'm accusing you or anything, lol. Just the decision to make a character like this be the player's romance option.)

 

I got it, he wanted to challenge warriors, specifically the female ones, to love an obviously flawed character. Gotta be it.

Edited October 15, 2017 by grania

[feylyndiira]

Sounds as legit as anything, to me. But why? Why would this be a good idea as a love interest/spouse for a player character in a video game? (I don't mean to sound like I'm accusing you or anything, lol. Just the decision to make a character like this be the player's romance option.)

 

I got it, he wanted to challenge warriors, specifically the female ones, to love an obviously flawed character. Gotta be it.

 

Quite possibly true. I mean look at other BW romances like Anders (turns out to pretty much be a terrorist) and Solas (wanted to destroy the entire world). In SWTOR there's crazy-psychopath DS Jaesa and "use 'em up then throw them away/kill them" Kaliyo. Compared to them, Quinn's a freaking sweetheart. I mean, I'll even give the team credit in that at least the romancable males are semi-sympathetic characters that you can almost feel sorry for in their tragic-ness.

[grania]

Quite possibly true. I mean look at other BW romances like Anders (turns out to pretty much be a terrorist) and Solas (wanted to destroy the entire world). In SWTOR there's crazy-psychopath DS Jaesa and "use 'em up then throw them away/kill them" Kaliyo. Compared to them, Quinn's a freaking sweetheart. I mean, I'll even give the team credit in that at least the romancable males are semi-sympathetic characters that you can almost feel sorry for in their tragic-ness.

 

I guess you're right. There are other questionable romance decisions made by BW. Quinn isn't alone in that category.

 

And I can see how Quinn being under Baras's thumb for so many years could have traumatized him in ways that aren't noticeable superficially. In fact, that makes the most sense of all. Of course he was affected by that situation. And Baras isn't a run of the mill scumbag either.

[feylyndiira]

Oh...one thing I wanted to bring up a few posts back when this started, but didn't (because I haven't asked him this outright, but can pretty much assume this is the case from his resume/IMDB entry)....

 

I'm pretty sure that Neil had zero to do with anything relating to Quinn or the SW after the vanilla story. He's not listed anywhere that I can find and it appears that he stopped working at BW:A right before the original game was released. So I'm assuming he had no hand whatsoever in the Iokath story. So any inconsistencies are on the heads of whoever took over the writing after the vanilla game. (Not to say that they weren't in contact with him for insights, advice, etc...just that I don't think he was the actual writer of anything after the vanilla story was done.)

[Elessara]

Quite possibly true. I mean look at other BW romances like Anders (turns out to pretty much be a terrorist) and Solas (wanted to destroy the entire world). In SWTOR there's crazy-psychopath DS Jaesa and "use 'em up then throw them away/kill them" Kaliyo. Compared to them, Quinn's a freaking sweetheart. I mean, I'll even give the team credit in that at least the romancable males are semi-sympathetic characters that you can almost feel sorry for in their tragic-ness.

 

I'm going to put this in spoilers because I don't want to clutter up the thread with something that's only tangentially related to the discussion. It's regarding what you said about Solas. And if you want to continue the conversation then please PM me.

 

 

 

Now, obviously I'm a fan of Solas but it always kind of irks me when people simplify what he's doing as saying, "Oh he just wants to destroy the world". He doesn't want to destroy the world. He wants to return the world to the way it was before he himself messed with it - i.e. he wants to remove the Veil. Given what happened when he put the Veil up, he sincerely believes that when he removes the Veil it will destroy the world as we currently know it and probably everyone (or most people) will die. The destruction and death are not his end goal, they're unfortunate side effects.

 

This does NOT make him less of a villain. And I'm not sure if it makes it better or worse that he doesn't actually want to kill everyone but he's going to do it regardless because he (quite arrogantly) thinks it'll make things better for the world as a whole. But it does take him out of the "Muhahaha I'm going to kill everyone because reasons" psychopath category which so many people (not necessarily you, just in general) like to put him in.

 

 

 

Back on the topic of Quinn. I don't really think these insights by the writer change anything for myself. Personally, headcannon (for me) has always allowed me to do two things: 1) Flesh out the parts of the story that aren't touched on and 2) Change parts of the story I don't like or I think don't make much sense. Also, insights by the writer aside, as we are not presented with this information explicitly within the story itself then it's not exactly cannon.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Elessara

[Nightfrogger]

Agreed...I would call him Darth Scumbag personally....

[Sarova]

A'right, so... after re-reading and analyzing the writer's words...um...

Purple Quinn's a bit discouraged. And confused.

 

Essentially - please correct me if I'm wrong, I really want to be wrong - Quinn is more loyal to Baras than the warrior, plan and simple. Betraying and trying to kill the warrior is a conflict for him, because he does at least love (...superficially) the warrior, but in the end his loyalty to Baras wins out and he carries out the betrayal "faithfully." Good little minion. Baras saved his life and his career, and Quinn responded by being utterly loyal to him for...ten years? Druckenwell and that whole mess was ten years ago, and Quinn's been stuck in a dead-end job on a never-ending warzone ever since. He's THAT grateful to Baras?? (...then again, Baras *is* a Sith. Quinn's a dedicated Imperial officer; he knows how dangerous it is to forget about or dismiss a Sith's act of kindness even years later. As Iokath showed, Sith can be infuriatingly petty.) And that makes Quinn's words on Iokath, if you bring up the betrayal, almost hypocritical: "I thought we had moved past that." ...yeah, what? YOU didn't move past a Sith saving your life TEN FLIPPIN' YEARS before you met the Warrior. Just...wha?

 

However, the way it's worded here - "I tried to leave it open to interpretation that Quinn could have secretly programmed the war droids so the SW would be able to defeat them, and sprang the betrayal otherwise faithfully. He'd then be able to have honored or seemed to have honored his duty to Baras, while being "faithful" to you." There's the loophole and room for headcanon. So Quinn decided "Okay, so Baras told me to kill my wife. I can half-heartedly do so and claim 'seeeee? Tried to! Didn't work!'" That's...a bit better, but still iffy (how's Baras ever going to know?) because it rather implies that Quinn's loyalty can be neatly compartmentalized - "Right, I carried out Baras's orders, so now I'm content to watch him die, 'tis all good here!" - and almost makes the man seem like he has a split-personality disorder or something.

 

So, all in all, what was the writer going for? That Quinn really is as much of a spineless coward/traitor as his haters like to paint him as? Because that's looking pretty likely. I think my love for Quinn just plummeted a whole lot...am I reading this all wrong? Are there loopholes that I can't see? I know I can just resort to headcanon for the whole thing, but this is irritating me.

 

 

I was really sad to read that our Grand Admiral is losing faith! Regarding the return story, I think the best thing is to ignore/pretend Iokath didn't happen as I don't think it was written by Quinn's original writer and even the Devs have agreed his return story was pretty bad. Quinn's return story was written so the haters (which as we know included swtor staff) would get their opportunity to kill Quinn, end of story. There was no or very little consideration in the return story for those of us who like/love Quinn's character. They have admitted this was a mistake and they are considering story options to rectify this in the future. They've definitely noticed this thread and realised that Quinn has a lot more fans than they thought. If Neil did not write the return, it might be professional suicide to criticise those who did write it.

 

I think it has been implied through the class stories that Quinn has issues understanding those who are force users - he either underestimates them (like on Tatooine with where he is rendered unconscious by a Jedi) or overestimates them (like with the Jedi on Balmorra or with Baras). Given that before meeting the SW Quinn's only love in life was his career and his debt to Baras (which I'm sure in 10 years Baras never let him forget); Quinn has probably seen what Baras's is capable of (such as killing via the force during holocalls for even minor offences) so there must also be an aspect of self-preservation too. I think the arrival of the SW puts a spanner in the works for Quinn – he is in awe of her/him and I think he is somewhat conflicted by his feelings and cannot reconcile them with his enforced debt to Baras. In addition Baras lied (like all good Sith). Quinn’s debt was not repaid; Baras saw an opportunity to plant someone who he could later use to kill the SW if necessary (he made repeated references to his ability to forward plan). Baras did not factor in that they would fall in love (or if not romanced – develop great respect for the SW) leading Quinn to consciously or subconsciously sabotage the assassination attempt on the SW.

 

Fortunately for me, Neil’s revelations make no difference to my own version of Quinn and his love for the warrior. He redeemed himself once the attempted assassination was over. I think it’s easier for me as I have no interest in any version of the story where Quinn is not romanced or redeemed; he is the only companion (of those that are killable) that I will not even consider killing. I have watched the alternate version but I haven’t allowed them to impact my version of Quinn’s story. The past is the past – it is the present and future that matters as far as the SW & Quinn are concerned. Maybe that helps you a bit?

 

[Nightfrogger]

I was really sad to read that our Grand Admiral is losing faith! Regarding the return story, I think the best thing is to ignore/pretend Iokath didn't happen as I don't think it was written by Quinn's original writer and even the Devs have agreed his return story was pretty bad. Quinn's return story was written so the haters (which as we know included swtor staff) would get their opportunity to kill Quinn, end of story. There was no or very little consideration in the return story for those of us who like/love Quinn's character. They have admitted this was a mistake and they are considering story options to rectify this in the future. They've definitely noticed this thread and realised that Quinn has a lot more fans than they thought. If Neil did not write the return, it might be professional suicide to criticise those who did write it.

 

I think it has been implied through the class stories that Quinn has issues understanding those who are force users - he either underestimates them (like on Tatooine with where he is rendered unconscious by a Jedi) or overestimates them (like with the Jedi on Balmorra or with Baras). Given that before meeting the SW Quinn's only love in life was his career and his debt to Baras (which I'm sure in 10 years Baras never let him forget); Quinn has probably seen what Baras's is capable of (such as killing via the force during holocalls for even minor offences) so there must also be an aspect of self-preservation too. I think the arrival of the SW puts a spanner in the works for Quinn – he is in awe of her/him and I think he is somewhat conflicted by his feelings and cannot reconcile them with his enforced debt to Baras. In addition Baras lied (like all good Sith). Quinn’s debt was not repaid; Baras saw an opportunity to plant someone who he could later use to kill the SW if necessary (he made repeated references to his ability to forward plan). Baras did not factor in that they would fall in love (or if not romanced – develop great respect for the SW) leading Quinn to consciously or subconsciously sabotage the assassination attempt on the SW.

 

Fortunately for me, Neil’s revelations make no difference to my own version of Quinn and his love for the warrior. He redeemed himself once the attempted assassination was over. I think it’s easier for me as I have no interest in any version of the story where Quinn is not romanced or redeemed; he is the only companion (of those that are killable) that I will not even consider killing. I have watched the alternate version but I haven’t allowed them to impact my version of Quinn’s story. The past is the past – it is the present and future that matters as far as the SW & Quinn are concerned. Maybe that helps you a bit?

 

 

I have to agree with this as well. The author probably did the original write up to encompass all possibilities of how he was treated, a kind of one size fits all deal. In my opinion his debt to him is just one of the many things he holds over Quinn. Quinn being in a relationship with you is just that much more that Baras could use against him to back him into this corner. More ways to twist his arm via threats like killing you slowly and horribly infront of him...in which case Quinn trying to do the deed himself would be far more kind. At this point he does know that Baras is a powerful sith and probably believes he could easily back up those threats by overpowering you. He has seen you in action yes... but I doubt he has ever seen Baras in action... and having him breath down your neck for a decade would mess with you.

 

Plus I also agree, I think he redeemed himself by sitting there and calming accepting his fate after he did this.

He did not beg, he fully expected to die after failing in the assassination attempt, I give him much respect for this.

 

 

[orangenee]

How can he know you're the most powerful? He can't judge that. He can observe, but how many he had a chance to see up close as you? All Sith are super-people to him, worthy of his devotion, because they're Sith, they're embodiment of the Empire, they are the Empire.

 

He admittedly miscalculated on Balmorra, so learnt you're above average, but Baras is a Dark Council member. He's one of the Big Twelve. Hardly a no-one.

 

But your posts reminded me that I regretted we have no influence on the story, and regardless of what we do, he stabs us in the back. Good, bad, egoistic or patriotic, no matter. And a bit like with Theron, in a case where he can't complain about what kind of person/Stih you are, there is nonsensically lack of explanation why he's doing it.

 

I've steamrolled through several Jedi at that point like it was nothing, two garbage cans on legs was going to stop me?

 

Sadly we don't really get enough back story to the Baras/Quinn dynamic. Or even THAT much about them individually, Baras seems more an administrator as opposed to an operator anyway. Quinn has seen me do stuff but not Baras, who could have just "stealthed" his way into his position so to speak.

 

Quinn definitely made the call though, it was a half-effort to kill me at best. A gamble even. He either kills me and likely gets disposed of anyway, or he doesn't and I might have disposed of him instead.

 

We spend most of the story on cleanup duty after all, tying off Baras' loose ends. We were getting a little too powerful for Baras' liking and a little too independent.

[Ralei]

Forgive me if this all sounds like gibberish, I'm half asleep.

 

I'm fairly confident Quinn and the warrior saved and protected each other multiple times before the betrayal, they had non-stop adventures before the betrayal occurred. That's all the arguing I feel like doing with Neil, because if his intent was for the warrior to love Quinn more than he loved her - mission accomplished, that is the sense I have of the story.

 

However the question it leaves me with, was Quinn always meant to be the love interest for the female warrior? I've heard that Corso was shoe-horned into that role after the story was mostly completed. Like, oopsie, women might play this game, pick a guy and give them mushy scenes together. Because Quinn stands out like a sore thumb from the other romances in the game.

 

Just because I obviously adore Quinn, and I've become comfortable with the story over the years, I'm really not sure why female warriors got a LI who loved them less. Especially in the context of the all the other romances. (Of course, had Pierce been picked to play the warrior's LI, I'd probably be playing WoW right now. )

 

Oh well. I can never really know what's in my real husband's mind, I just hope it's not "I really like my wife but I'd dump her if my boss told me to." How "romantic"

 

I think in the case of Quinn, it looks to me that his story was written with a male warrior in mind. (like most of the class stories and companions. I still want to karate chop things when I think about how when all of the various writers were coming up with force using love interests, they all picked young, female apprentices to obey and adore the force using male classes. I'll never get over that and it's a perfect example of unconscious bias that creeps into everything and overwhelms.)

 

Anyway ....

 

It's not a bad thing that they imagined Quinn's story for a man, but the bad part is how it looks like they didn't care enough to adapt that story for a female player. It could have been phenomenal. There could have been dialog options for a romanced player that was heart wrenching and dramatic and really told a great story and this thread would look waaayyyy different. But the collective "they" didn't care enough to include it. I'm sure the writers would have like to come up with that, but various people in the process made the decision that it wasn't a priority and it didn't happen. Just like a male force user LI didn't happen. Just like all the slave bikinis that only female toons could wear happened. Just like the difference in the male and female body type 4 happened. How all the dancers and holograms that were only female happened. and so on and so forth. It mirrors real life. Did one person say "Hey, this is kinda bad, maybe we should do this differently?" who knows.

 

Do women just not like types of media naturally in their female organs, or is it because we aren't stupid and can see when the creators don't care that we exist? Why is it so much effort to make things like this work for us?

 

now im stewin with my coffee

[grania]

now im stewin with my coffee

 

Uhg don't tempt me with this topic. You know how well conversations like this go on forums. If you're ever in the neighborhood stop by and we'll discuss it over whiskey sours.

 

In the meantime, I'm going to look on the bright side with what Sarova said the devs alluded to, in her spoiler. Not much else to do about it - it's either give up on a game I love or just keep waiting.

[Sarova]

Uhg don't tempt me with this topic. You know how well conversations like this go on forums. If you're ever in the neighborhood stop by and we'll discuss it over whiskey sours.

I tend try and look at it from the male perspective; I'll bet that over 90% percent of the staffing for swtor (that work on the game and story) is male. Men do not understand women in general let alone women might enjoy playing this game in particular. They are going to design and write it from the male perspective. If they don't they will have to spend lots of money getting in consultants to tell them how to write from a woman's viewpoint and becoming obsessed with being "politically correct" which helps no-one. It's no different in any other male orientated (sorry for the Brit spelling there) pastime and I suspect when they initially did their research MMOs were male dominated. Fortunately we have fanfic and forums to fall back on and which some of the writers are taking notice of. I think since Keith became producer, the swtor staff are taking more notice and are trying to do things a bit differently. And it takes time for things to change without turning the bias completely the other way. I have some faith that they will introduce stories that we'll all be happy with from next year without going too far one way or the other (a bit like when Krusty on the Simpsons got Princess Penelope & the boys were all ill as a result ).

 

At the moment it is what it is and I still enjoy playing. Lets face it, some of the romance stories, (including Quinns) in the game are pretty good

 

In the meantime, I'm going to look on the bright side with what Sarova said the devs alluded to, in her spoiler. Not much else to do about it - it's either give up on a game I love or just keep waiting.

Indeed.

 

All that thinking has made me forget I really fancied some chocolate! Also because we risked going completely off topic:

Google Saves the Day

And for Lammia (actually, is this one of yours)?

[grania]

All that thinking has made me forget I really fancied some chocolate! Also because we risked going completely off topic:

Google Saves the Day

And for Lammia (actually, is this one of yours)?

 

Ok first of all, squeeee Quinn wearing reading glasses, that's so cute I want to die. Second of all, how did one of MY screenshots end up in a google search? lolol Actually, two of them.. hm

Edited October 15, 2017 by grania