Five Words That Sum Up State of the Game

[Joonbeams]

All of the major issues in this game can be summed up with 5 words: Rewards Don’t Match the Expense. Look at the major gripes pre 5.0 and post 5.1 announcements. People don’t want RNG. People don’t want gratuitous grinding. But digging deeper what people really want is some reasonable assurance that their time won’t be wasted. Ironically, if keeping people subbed with existing content is the goal, then punishing subs with an insanely underwhelming loot table is having the exact opposite effect. As such, the announcements for 5.1, while appreciated, don’t go nearly far enough.

 

Do you really want people to play all of your content, over and over again? Well then make it worthwhile by getting rid of useless loot drops. Every bit of content in this game should drop something “useful,” albeit to varying degrees.

 

Here are some examples:

 

1. Gearing: far too few drops of gear. RNG “bad luck” should be the gearing exception, not the rule.

2. Ops/Ranked PvP/HM FPS/Veteran Modes: Hardest content should have highest chances at best gear and rewards and CXP, right now it’s the opposite

3. Cartel Market: Even CM packs drop far too little quality items, basically slot machines

4. Open World/Questing/Leveling: almost all loot drops from these activities are worthless

 

Devs, TAKE NOTE: All of this is easily fixed by updating the loot tables substantially. No new content is needed – I repeat NO NEW CONTENT is needed to fix the main issues. Keep GC, keep CXP, and even keep RNG if you must. But for the love of midichlorians, loot tables need HEAVY adjustment, for example in much the same way crafting has been adjusted – around 60% chance for a quality item from certain activities. As another example, all Ops bosses should have 100% chance of dropping unassembled gear pieces in this system. Fairness is what we're looking for.

 

THERE ARE NO OTHER ISSUES that should have your focus at this point other than radically modifying the loot tables to something that keeps people feeling like their time will be rewarded. This can be done in the next patch with a very routine amount of dev work. You will get everything you hoped to get with 5.0 - critical mass of people willing to stay subbed for existing content and a sprinkle of new story.

 

This isn’t to say that no new content is needed to strengthen this game in the long run – you’ve admitted as much. But for now, the fixes needed for this game are pretty simple and straightforward. Please do it.

 

Tl;dr: Fix the loot tables and most of 5.x issues go away....

[americanaussie]

I'll agree with that. Rewards don't match time. My time is more valuable. No, I dont want to be geared up in one night but one night to me maybe 2-3 hrs. I think I should receive crates like every 20 mins. Or just use command tokens to purchase armor. The removal of the bolster and the high number of premades/EXTREME high number of unassembled gear pieces needed to purchase gear coupled with low drop rate is ********. Even I'm getting tired and fed up. Edited January 25, 2017 by americanaussie

[Joonbeams]

I'm honestly not sure why this simple little change isn't even discussed. Everything else can be kept, just simply tweak the loot tables to give higher percentages of good loot drops and that's it - everybody wins.

[Nothing_Shines]

How about any loot drops?

 

I just ran through three Heroic Star Fortresses on my Jugg 70, because I was bored out of my *********** mind running heroics and then occassionally queuing for pvp and getting rekt wearing 230s, and every single boss I killed dropped exactly one thing: nothing. Decorations have been gone for a while from SFs, but now at 70? No vendor trash. No credits. NOTHING. They didn't even give CXP. I killed the exarch and he falls over and ... no chance to get the mount. No chance at artifact gear to sell on GTN. No blue mats. NO CXP. Not from the kill or from a crate drop. And he was level synced and still hard as balls. I could maybe see, if the missions still grayed out (and some missions STILL do gray out after more than a year, BWA), you nerf the loot so people don't farm them, but this took time and effort to overcome and all I got were repair bills.

 

And the grapple points were still bugged half the time. Bravo.

 

You invest how much dev time and resources into Heroic SFs for the 4.0 cycle and then render them completely pointless in 5.0? Why? Am I not supposed to play the game that way anymore? I thought KOTFE/KOTET was the game. Is it only the game when I'm sub-65? Or is this like the on-rails PVE Space missions that you decided you didn't want people playing anymore, so you rendered them non-rewarding? If the metrics show no one plays the HSFs, then we don't have to make any more or do anything with them ever again! Yay!

 

I mean, there's an endless list of ******** to use as an example of how completely alien BWA's thought processes are, but this is some **** I just randomly decided to do on this one toon, since I hadn't bothered to run him through them before he dinged 70. What other odd parts of the game have you just farted on and walked away from in just the last few months?

 

Ah, who am I kidding? No one cares. I'm not even sure I do.

Edited January 27, 2017 by Nothing_Shines

[RahaylaCora]

I agree. And I add that playing story chapters in veteran mode, in full 228 gear, sometimes being a pain and a money sink, drops rating 210 items (below the basic 220 craftable gear). Really, developers? Unbalanced rewards for the effort. Special goods, even random or rare, are a must to incentivate the players to replay certain game content.

[HuaRya]

When I truly enjoyed this game the most was back when you could explore the leveling worlds and purple and orange gear would randomly drop. This crap green gear that only drops now makes 90% of the games real estate not worth visiting.

[Talon_strikes]

My five words that sum up the state of the game are: We need more endgame content.

[Wayshuba]

I would actually sum it up in seven words, which about covers everything: "Producers don't know what they are doing."

 

I am reminded of a great presentation given by Noaki Yoshida at the GDC 2014 (link for reference: http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1020179/Behind-the-Realm) - For those who don't know who he is, he is the man responsible for fixing the disaster that was the FFXIV online and turning into FFXIV: ARR and helping move this MMO into the Number Two position in the market.

 

In it there were two very important slides:

 

An MMO Is Like Running A Country

 

1.) If a Dev Team is the Government, The Players Are It's Citizens

If citizens disapprove of your policies, they will move to Canada

Yoshida-san referred to always remembering that even if you are WoW, there is a lot of competition in the space for the MMO player and if you dump all over them, like they did with FFXIV online, they WILL go elsewhere.

 

2.) Clarity, Vision, and Willingness to Listen Are Keys to Success

Without these, the government [devs] devolve into a dictatorship

Yoshida-san mentions that what do citizens do when they are in a dictatorship? They flee as soon as they can and as fast as possible. He attributed developer arrogance as the number one killer of good titles on the market. He also mentions how he is glad there is so much arrogance as Square Enix is able to differentiate themselves by actually listening to customers.

 

3.) Learn to Listen and Adapt. A Complaint is Worth Twice a Compliment.

The silent always leave first

If citizens are complaining it means they still care

Yoshida-san gives an example of wanting to implement a big change in the game. He proposes that you should run the idea before your player base before even committing development resources to it. He then says, if the feedback is too negative, you should abandon the idea before even starting on it. He reiterates, that if the complaints are piling up then you need to address them URGENTLY before they become silent (which means you have lost a customer).

 

4.) Creators Must be Players In There Own Realms

If the leader don't live there, why would their subjects?

Yoshida-san was adamant about this point. How can you know what improvements to make to your game if you don't even play it. At Square Enix, they insist on a certain amount on in game play time regularly among the development and creative staff so they have to live with the changes the make in game.

 

Lessons Learned

 

1.) Never forget the fans

Without them there would be no us

Here Yoshida-san reiterated how hard is is to get customers compared to working to keep them. He says that no change should ever go into a game that upsets customers. They are your citizens, without them you would not have a country.

 

2.) Fun comes first.

If it isn't fun, you are doing it wrong

The comment is self explanatory but he covers a lesson learned from FFXIV online, never put something in the game that makes players dread doing it. If you do, get it out immediately otherwise you risk your title failing. It is a game and games are supposed to be fun. He also mentions how he doesn't like players ever saying something isn't fun. If he reads those comments, he immediately prioritizes it to fix it so it is fun.

 

3.) Never Back Down

Always aim to amaze

Here he talks about realizing the value of what customers expect for their money and reiterates that their are dozens of other companies they could choose to spend that money with. Therefore, you should always strive to exceed what you deliver compared to your competition otherwise your players (and your revenue) will walk.

 

4.) Don't Forget Your Roots

It's what fans crave

This was his last point, do not forget that your customers make you who you are - not you. He reiterates that without your customers there would be no you. That the goal of running an MMO is to always strive to keep your customers because the growth in MMOs doesn't come from new features or expansions, but from good word of mouth from existing customers. He reminds everyone that MMOs are about community, and strong communities will grow games while toxic or weak ones (like they had with the original FFXIV online) will kill you.

 

Now this is from a guy who successfully turned a failing MMO into the second biggest on the market. Can you see how many of those eight points BW violated - especially with the GC System.

Edited January 27, 2017 by Wayshuba

[SteveTheCynic]

When I truly enjoyed this game the most was back when you could explore the leveling worlds and purple and orange gear would randomly drop.

Oh God I remember that.

 

It was my first Assassin ("original 'Sin"?), and she was level 20 or so, running around on Dromund Kaas for a BBA hit, and the dude squished me the first time (OK, I agree, I suck, but I think this was before 3.0 came out). I bought an interesting-looking stim from the medical droid, and on my way back to the fight point (in front of the Dark Temple), I fought a few random trash mobs.

 

One of them dropped a purple chest armour that she could use, that was better than whatever junk she was wearing.

[Vember]

When I truly enjoyed this game the most was back when you could explore the leveling worlds and purple and orange gear would randomly drop. This crap green gear that only drops now makes 90% of the games real estate not worth visiting.

 

I looted some orange boots from a random mob last night

[Asroha]

f****d up beyond all recognition

[FluxFader]

5 Words: Taco, burrito, nacho, chips, hungry

[SavantDreadtech]

When I truly enjoyed this game the most was back when you could explore the leveling worlds and purple and orange gear would randomly drop. This crap green gear that only drops now makes 90% of the games real estate not worth visiting.

 

I got level 66 purple gear (boots & grieves) from heroics on my level 70 consular. From most wanted heroic on Courscant and from proff of treason on Hoth. So still drop.

 

 

Anyway my 5 words.... I still enjoy the game.

Nothing else matters to me. Then again I am not part of the snowflake generation.

Edited January 27, 2017 by SavantDreadtech

[kodrac]

That's a lot more than 5 words. I can only think of 3. Galactic Command sucks.

[Hathenor]

90% of the people that are constantly complaining are Imps...as always.

[kodrac]

90% of the people that are constantly complaining are Imps...as always.

 

And that has relevance how?

[DanNV]

That's a lot more than 5 words. I can only think of 3. Galactic Command sucks.

 

Yeah, that about sums it up.

[ImmortalLowlife]

My 5 words...

 

1. LET
   
2. US
   
3. CUSTOMIZE
   
4. ALL
   
5. COMPANIONS!!!!!
   

[Wrath-PSA]

*bump

someone should sticky this post so it can be read by all developers, because beyond the general comments and blah blah there is actually good game saving tips and information.

[Andryah]

Rewards and Expense are not terms definable in any objective measure, in the context of MMOs. It quickly becomes a subjective discussion (which of course brings in arguing and personal attacks generally soon follow)....

 

.......Different people equate them to different things in an MMO, and that is fine. But to try to prosecute any MMO on the basis of one persons viewpoint and definition is largely trying to push a noodle across a table.

 

In the spirit of the thread, 7 words ---------> OP is not happy with the game.

Edited January 27, 2017 by Andryah

[OFAWFletch]

What we need is an insider in their Board meetings where they sit on their butts counting their Bonuses and projecting how much more $$$ they can milk out of us and that Insider have the gutts to stand up for the consumer, the subscriber.

And if that don't work, find some really strong laxative and put it in their Doughnuts.... LOL:D

Think about your Suscribers, READ the comments, suggestions. Make some real good changes that Benefits US for a change.

[Voblat]

No more enthusiasm to play

[Joonbeams]

Rewards and Expense are not terms definable in any objective measure, in the context of MMOs. It quickly becomes a subjective discussion (which of course brings in arguing and personal attacks generally soon follow)....

 

.......Different people equate them to different things in an MMO, and that is fine. But to try to prosecute any MMO on the basis of one persons viewpoint and definition is largely trying to push a noodle across a table.

 

In the spirit of the thread, 7 words ---------> OP is not happy with the game.

 

I really don't understand this - it's like there are multiple different people posting under this moniker at different times. You've made posts that have been very helpful to me in the past, but then there are ones like these. I'm basically arguing the SAME THINGS I've seen YOU argue in the past (and IMO, more constructively). For example:

 

...

They don't need to bring back boss loot.. though bosses should drop something that acts as a carrot... because let's be real here... most players these days automatically chase the carrots, even when they see them behind a barb wire fence (GC).

 

What they do need to do is to give players "certainty" and an ability to estimate the time needed to gain the gear they want. Using RNG against loot tables, without any safety cutout (a fail-safe mechanism) and thus leaving pessimistic players with no way to calculate effort to gear is a mistake. But it is easy to correct by treating GC like a reputation ladder with a vendor attached to it. That way.. even if the RNG is harsh to a player, they know that by the time they reach level-X in GC, if the item they need has not dropped, they can simply go over to a vendor and buy it. This also solves the alts issue if they make the ladder apply across a legacy on a server.

 

They don't need to abandon the 5.0 approach, but they do need to refine it so players can actually calculate how much effort and how long it will take to complete a gearing effort. AND.... some fine tuning and balance such that all content pathways that earn Cxp do so in a proportional basis to the degree of difficulty of said pathway.

 

Isn't this an argument to make rewards better match the effort?

 

Fair assessment in my view.

 

Time will tell on RNG as to if it is as bad as some predict. .... In the end, it boils down to the loot tables, not RNG.

 

...

 

RNG is not the issue, loot table design and filtering is the issue, and it's not nearly as tragic as some of you are pretending. I'm sure the studio knows this, which is why they are not commenting on all the foaming at the mouth over RNG.

 

Stop promoting BattleMaster RNG as = GC RNG. They are clearly very different.

 

IF you actually want to engage in productive discussion with the studio.... focus on the need for filtering on the loot tables that mitigate repeat drops of the same item. Focus on filtering to include Discipline (even though a player can change Discipline at any time and could undercut their gear in the process. If you just want to be negative for the sake of negativity.. then by all means double down on the fiction.

 

Aren't we on the exact same page here - focusing on the loot tables?

 

Sure.. let's take that as a reference example, because it proves the point I have been making for weeks on all the tantrums over RNG.

 

When initially released, the loot table was set very rich, and hence lots of payout.... even in an RNG setup. Pretty well proved how rich the drops in an RNG subroutine can be.

 

Then, they yanked way back on the loot table settings, making them lean to the point of not paying out desired items any longer.... even in an RNG setup.

 

The RNG subroutine was the same before AND after. It was the loot table that was messed with. Which is why I am holding off judgment until I can actually play it and see what the loot table for GC boxes actually looks like. Key words here..... LOOT TABLES. RNG has nothing material to do with loot drops.... it is always the loot table that is pivotal to how items drop.

 

Note: I am in no way saying they will not mess up the loot tables, both before release and after release. Given their track record, I have little confidence in their management of loot tables. Their RNG subroutines are simply doing what they do.... pointing randomly to an item in the relevant loot table.

 

People really should be putting their attention on the loot tables, and the uncertainties of what is in them and how they are weighted.

 

Again, same issue.

 

Let's crispen that up just a bit and take the editorial bias out of it.

 

RNG is simply a random number generated inside a server. It is not evil, though you could use it in bad ways.

 

...

 

The ISSUE is two fold, and not specific to RNG:

1) the current loot tables do not appear to have a rich setting on the stat based gear, particularly set bonus pieces. Some have noted this and appeal to the studio to richen the loot table percentages some. This would help, but would not guarantee a player that by X effort and Y time.. they WILL have their set bonus pieces. So while this may help.. it does not solve the core issue of players being able to fairly well predict how much time and effort they need to apply to get their gear set.

 

2) There is absolutely NO fail safe mechanism right now, such that a player can feel assured that they WILL get a full set of what they seek. There does need to be some form of fail safe for this, and I have advocated for the studio to put a ladder on GC levels (like they do with reputation) and provide a vendor that progressively unlocks items for direct purchase when you hit each step in the ladder. With this method, a player may get something sooner from a crate, but certainly can gain said item by simply reaching the correct ladder in the vendor loot table. Which means a player can fairly well calculate the time and effort to achieve item X, and then determine which content they want to play to level GC to hit the ladder. This has worked well with reputation levels for years now, and most players are willing to grind reputation for less vendor rewards then what is offered in GC. If they made the items BoL as well on the vendor, that solves the side issue of gearing alts. Launching without fail safes in place was an error on the part of the studio in my view. They have hinted that they understand this approach and are thinking about it, so that is a small amount of progress.

 

RNG is not bad in and of itself. And RNG for gear boxes is not bad in and of itself. What is currently bad is there is no fail safe to insure a player who is on the bad end of the RNG goddess to feel confident they can complete their efforts to get gear.

 

There is no need to throw the baby out with the bath water here. This is fixable without resorting to the harsh meme driven demands to remove RNG. The sooner you folks get off the RNG meme (on both sides of the discussion) and start focusing on coherent and workable suggestions (workable from the studio side, not just the players side) the sooner we may be able to pursade them to put in the needed fail safe(s) so we can all move forward with more certainty.

 

Once again, you're arguing that players don't have any certainty that their efforts will be worth the rewards. I make this same argument. You argue that it's not about RNG, I do the same. Anyway, won't keep harping, you get the picture.

 

And then, finishing with "OP is not happy with the game"? Why do you need to go there? I'm certainly no less happy than you are:

 

Good post OP.

 

That said, why exactly are we having to do Ben's job for Ben. He has an entire development team along with analytics infrastructure to be able to sit down around a conference table and pen-&-paper this themselves.

 

Balancing Cxp payouts so that any content choice is roughly in balance with any other content choice, with reasonable adjustments for risk/effort IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE. It's not even science... it's straight up data modeling and analysis.

 

Mind you, this was in response to a request for constructive feedback which the OP of that thread provided. No one from BW asked for help doing Ben's job.

 

...

 

They (the studio) need their feet held to the fire (in a constructive manner!!) until they fix all the mistakes they made with the rollout of GC and Cxp.

 

I'm trying to provide constructive feedback here exactly as you've stated yourself over things you also agree are broken - and yes, there are (other) people who can criticize aspects of this game, constructively, while still enjoying it and who can do it out of love for the franchise.

 

May the Force Be With You...

[Jplankey]

I spent a metric buttload of CC's on packs, nothing good. A few mounts, but mainly salvage and deccorations

[DanNV]

Playing isn't fun any more