Why all the hate?

[Xo-Lara]

That was really well said. I wish I could translate my thoughts into writing that easily. Well done.

 

Thank you.

 

Simple, some people think the game is a measure of real life self worth; getting RL ego boosts and taking RL depression hits.

 

This very very unhealthy practice leads to forum "discussions" that are way overblown, after all peope's self worth is on the line.

 

I think the problem is a habit and cycle of personal attacks. People are bound to take criticism personally when the critique shifts from the issue with the game to the players making the complaint. It happens all too often. When people can't make a counter point based on the issue they usually shift to their fellow players rather than accept they don't have leg to stand on.

[DanNV]

(snip)

 

The problem is that not every expression of displeasure is unreasoning hate but the company is prompting a significant rise in all kinds of displeasire. In this case, the best solution to the problem is to get at the root. Bioware's design principles have shifted to exploiting, cheating, and witholding from players. They have to stop that. No content dressing, whatever they try, that is based on that design principle will work. It will just breed more resentment, more frustration, more anger and probably more leaving customers. They need to go back to customer service basics and not insist that players will put up with whatever system they are given. All this RNG in bad places is one of the systems they need to overhaul or replace.

 

Good, well thought out post.

 

The only thing you missed is that they also have to make the game fun. Grinding for hundreds of hours to get the gear for the content you want to play (and were playing before the "expansion"" or spending a fortune crafting or a larger fortune buying the parts (that are generally inferior to the drops) is NOT fun. Hence the exodus, reduced server populations, longer queue times and for BW reduced revenue.

[Narrowsws]

Good, well thought out post.

 

The only thing you missed is that they also have to make the game fun. Grinding for hundreds of hours to get the gear for the content you want to play (and were playing before the "expansion"" or spending a fortune crafting or a larger fortune buying the parts (that are generally inferior to the drops) is NOT fun. Hence the exodus, reduced server populations, longer queue times and for BW reduced revenue.

 

That's exactly why I like the chapters, no grinding for 10-20 levels. You just jump right in. The boost is also really nice. I'm beaten this game on almost every toon at least once. Now I can just dive into the story. I'm sure if they're are no updates to the story in the next few months. I might become discouraged. I like the current thing they have.

[DanNV]

That's exactly why I like the chapters, no grinding for 10-20 levels. You just jump right in. The boost is also really nice. I'm beaten this game on almost every toon at least once. Now I can just dive into the story. I'm sure if they're are no updates to the story in the next few months. I might become discouraged. I like the current thing they have.

 

Once I've done the new chapters a couple of times, they're boring. Extremely boring. The grind I am talking about id Galactic Command. It was the final straw for me and many others. It's not going to get better, it just needs to go. Until BW gets that, things aren't going to improve, the game is not going to become fun again and populations will continue to decline.

[Xo-Lara]

Good, well thought out post.

 

The only thing you missed is that they also have to make the game fun.

...

 

Thank you.

 

Here's the problem. They can't make the game "fun". there is no blanket, catch-all sweet spot for fun. What is fun for one player is the opposite for another. For instance, the grind. There are players that love that grind you hate. Whether or not there is a lot of them isn't the point, they are out there. Changing everything to appease one group or the other is bound to cause a dust up no matter which way you go.

 

The company's best best is to provide a lot of options rather than rails. Don't try to make everyone play the game in the exact same way or squish incompatible playstyes together for development convenience. (*cough* PvP and PvE balance*cough*)

 

As I said years ago, I believe on this forum, Bioware needs to set up a rotation where each playstyle has a fixed focus relation to each other. PvPers will get content targeted for them after Raiders. Story people will be in the rotation after PvPers and so on. It may not be a fixed time, but it will be a fixed relation in that you always know when the focus should come back to your preferred style.

 

People would be more patient if they knew they were for sure going to get a turn. It would also help to cut down on backbiting.

[Andryah]

Simple, some people think the game is a measure of real life self worth; getting RL ego boosts and taking RL depression hits.

 

This very very unhealthy practice leads to forum "discussions" that are way overblown, after all peope's self worth is on the line.

 

I actually think this sums up the core behind the behavior accurately and succinctly.

[Andryah]

As I said years ago, I believe on this forum, Bioware needs to set up a rotation where each playstyle has a fixed focus relation to each other. PvPers will get content targeted for them after Raiders. Story people will be in the rotation after PvPers and so on. It may not be a fixed time, but it will be a fixed relation in that you always know when the focus should come back to your preferred style.

 

If you look at the expansions over the last 5 years, that is exactly what they appear to do.. and some people don't like content being in rotation like you suggest. Some of our more vocal negative narrative prosecutors like to point out they prefer WoW style expacs ever three years and would pay $60+ for them. Instead, SWTOR releases expacs yearly, and they tend to be focused on a specific segment of content at the expense of others.

 

The only content they have apparently dropped completely is OPs. Though I would say they have tabled GSF.. probably because there is not that much more to productively put into GSF. Players wanted SWG free form space play.. and when they did not get it with GSF... a lot of them walked away from GSF. But GSF is still popular and played by players and it is PvP.. so see next paragraph.

 

Of course PvPers will complain they get ignored too long and too often.. but in reality it's player vs player and the fact that players feel they need constant new additions to instancing in PvP seems kind of silly when the actual content you are after is killing any other player that you come across. PvPers have some valid concerns about class skill and discipline changes over time... but this is normal for PvPers in MMOs from my many years of experience playing many different MMOs... so I chalk that one up to "normal noise".

[Xo-Lara]

They need to be more transparent. The last releases have been haphazard in who gets their content next. it also will often radically changes direction mid stream. This is partially why many people don't feel like they will ever get a turn and battle it out on the forums trying to get their shot. Further, the people who communicate to the players have to constantly obfuscate to try to hide the musical chairs that has been going on in the background. That's not at all what I am advocating here.

 

What I am talking about is an open, declared rotation where everyone knows exactly where they stand and can rely on it. I know it isn't an easy thing to pull off, but this is the bed that the company has made for itself. Bioware will have to either lay in it or continue on with compounding outrage. It may take time to work through the rotation, but it should let players now they won't get automatically shifted to the back of the line for a last minute major, reactionary change.

 

To illustrate the problem, several players have cited that the company said they weren't going to take too long getting ops out. Later the company completely abandons making them. As a side note, if uprisings were the same thing they would have called them Ops. This kind of turn around gives players who like that content no confidence in the team or the game. No amount of uprisings talk will reassure them that they can take the company at it's word regarding larger group content. That means they will continue fighting for their share of the crumbs... or they will leave which is worse.

 

The team can't stop the complaining or the forum battles. They can however, stop the practices that are fueling them. It all goes back to fighting over the crumbs. If they share more of the pie and stop withholding from players so much, they will see a reduction in the amount of desperate, angry players. Once that goes down they can return to more normal levels of complaining.

[heythereqt]

I wouldn't call it hate, but there are a lot of things going wrong, and the community has every right to be upset. I'll list what I can think of at the moment. Keep in mind that I used to "white knight" on these forums and support the game as much as I could, but you can only be nickel and dimed and/or flat out lied to by a dev team so much before you turn to the other side.

 

Here we go:

Group content has been completely ignored for 2 years (with the exception of uprisings that should really be called glorified Heroics), despite constant posts on forums, reddit, twitch, and other outlets showing that players want more. PvP has received only 2 new maps in 3 or 4 years, and otherwise has been completely ignored. Expansions that added explorable worlds, daily hubs, and hours of other fun content were replaced with expansions that added instanced corridors, single-player-only gameplay, and chapters that have more animations than they do actual gameplay or content. 99.9% of any cool new mounts, weapons, and armors are exclusive Cartel Market items that require you to pay real money, rather than be rewarded for actually playing the game. GSF is completely abandoned. Strongholds and conquest are mostly abandoned, with almost any new decorations being exclusive to the cartel market. Events have been abandoned, with the only new one over the last 3 or 4 years being the DvL event--which just recycled all the content in the game as a means of keeping people subscribed. Companions that we loved, were customizable, and gained affection by playing the game were removed and replaced with companions that aren't customizable and require hours of clicking "give gift" to raise influence. To top things off, rather than keep the old endgame system and just give us new content (what everyone wanted), they gave us an RNG gearing system that requires weeks/months of grinding old content and doesn't guarantee any reward (what no one wanted).

 

TL,DR: Nearly everything that was once great about this game has either been completely abandoned or moved to the cartel market to make players pay more money. While I personally very much enjoy the new chapter stories and animations, it's not nearly enough to make up for everything else that was once great and is now left behind.

[Xo-Lara]

This is what I'v been saying lately. The problem is the underlying design principle that makes up the foundation for all content. Until they stop playing keep away and stop trying to crudely squeeze money from players, they are going to keep building more and more angry customers. Those will eventually turn into jaded customers who will refuse to buy and will attempt to stop others from buying. It will only get worse as more and more people "switch sides".

[BrotherJohn]

I get it people are frustrated. I myself left some time before anarchy storyline. Around that time they provided a generous boost to companions health. However not was all well in the Kingdom, a group of anti fun people set out to destroy the nerf, by complaining day and night here. The Dev's caved. I lost interest shortly after.

 

I warned people the nerf on companions ..would cause people to lost interest. However the chapters are great. I enjoy the solo play. I like being able to dive into each chapter without the need for an elite group each time. I can progress naturally through the story on my own.

 

I'd noticed though. People almost daily seem to be discouraged. I understand RNG sucks or more PVP content. Take it from someone who left before majority of chapters were installed. The game itself has improved. It may not be perfect. It's much better then it was at launch.

 

I couldnt disagree with you more and people are discouraged because they think the game is really in a state of utter disrepair.

 

the story is for a lack of a better phrase that isnt going to be blocked....... super market trash novelette turd writing

you never needed an elite group to run any of the older content, nor did you need to run ops but the old content gave a sense of star wars. all the stories were different yet followed the central theme. now we just have a pile of horse flop that is a railshooter for pve content. at times the content is so maze like its almost absurdly stupid.

 

the RNG system really just shows that the people that are developing swtor are amateurs at best and honestly should never be allowed to develop a game again.

 

all the things that make for a great MMO and they certainly had it at the start of the game, they have just turned their backs towards and noses in the air. its almost insanity what they think is fun and catching for a player in an mmo.

[tierzah]

heck the 1st time after 2.0 and taking away hybrids...I stop playin for nearly 2 years. for content the game is somewhat lacking. some peeps like it this way, others don't

[DarthDymond]

Sorry, but a lot of the 'hate' (as distinct from just constructive feedback) still seems to boil down to some level of "if a game doesn't include (or focus enough on) the type of gameplay I personally enjoy, then it is a bad game and deserving of scorn and derision."

 

My outlook is this: I don't enjoy FarmVille, but there are plenty of people who do. The developers of FarmVille aren't being arrogant or disconnected because they made a game that doesn't appeal to me - they just made that game for an audience that I happen to not be a part of. And that is perfectly fine - it is okay for games to exist, that other people enjoy, even if those games aren't for me.

 

And just as that's true for games I had no interest in from the start, that's also true for a game that is updated over time and ends up going in a different direction than I am interested (*cough*WoW*cough*). That doesn't make it a bad game, just one that's catering to a different audience than me. I don't have an ownership interest in the game, I'm a customer, and I'll continue to be a customer (including giving customer feedback) unless and until it is no longer a product I'm interested in subscribing to.

Edited January 16, 2017 by DarthDymond

[Xo-Lara]

Yeah but what people would be complaining about is akin to buying a bag of apples then opening it and finding oranges. It's not what you paid for. Many of the angry players were lured in on the promise of one game then given a different one after they had started paying. If MMOs weren't a fairly new industry they would probably be regulated to prevent that kind of bait and switch. Other industries aren't allowed to pull that.

 

I understand a certain amount of change is necessary to adapt. However, Bioware often made too many wide sweeping changes at once, not to mention wild swings of the nerf bat. If they hadn't changed so much of the previously developed game, they might have been able to squeak by. The old stuff people liked would have been exactly the same and still available. As it stands they often "fixed" things that weren't broken and ended up changing the game dramatically for a lot of playstyles.

 

Many people didn't pay to have the rug ripped from under them.

[DarthDymond]

The game has:

• Nine Operations (plus two single-boss Ops, and two Event-only single-boss Ops)
  
• Twenty-Seven Flashpoints
  
• Five Uprisings (with five more coming next week)
  
• Numerous World Bosses
  
• Seven 8v8 Warzones and Five 4v4 Warzone Arenas
  
• Galactic Starfighter PVP
  

...so, I'd say that even if it the game industry was "regulated" in such a way as to police what a game could call itself, this one would comfortably fit as an MMO.

[Xo-Lara]

That's nice but that doesn't the bulk of the complaints. The problem isn't the label. The problem is having your playstyle lifted from under you. Even I who am not a raider can see the raider's point about how the way they play the game has been disruptively changed. That has unfortunately happened across playstyles. That's what I mean by wide sweeping changes. I know no one can always predict the major effects of their decisions, but recent decisions have changed a lot of areas in the game to where the people who enjoy them don't find them fun anymore.

[Foambreaker]

Thank you.

 

 

 

I think the problem is a habit and cycle of personal attacks. People are bound to take criticism personally when the critique shifts from the issue with the game to the players making the complaint. It happens all too often. When people can't make a counter point based on the issue they usually shift to their fellow players rather than accept they don't have leg to stand on.

 

Yes, the idea that "I am right because you suck and are therefore wrong" is a big problem in gaming forums.

 

Of course the whole idea that anyone is right or wrong in a case where people are expressing personal opinion is just plain wrong.

[FerkWork]

Lol People talking about content mostly from pre 2015. Checks Calendar. Yup it still 2017 and

most of those have not been updated and no intention of XD. Should have gotten the Memo with 4.0 or even 3.0. They stopped doing the monthly story stuff as well so rip Story players XD. Uprisings are BW oh crap moment when the Episodic content gamble didn't work out. As fund wind down most likely Uprisings will be discontinued as well if there is a new "expac". As an MMO it died back in 2015 and it's corpse still attached to the new smaller SP and rehashed content patches known as KotFE and Kotet. The hoops people will jump through is funny though. Just relax as the expacs shrink further and content becomes more rehashed. Let people have hope if they wish. If you want to play a MMO there is always WoW or FFXIV. Speaking of which I need to download the newest FFXIV patch. I think it's bigger than all of KotET. Cross server hype though

Edited January 16, 2017 by FerkWork

[AlrikFassbauer]

As it stands they often "fixed" things that weren't broken and ended up changing the game dramatically for a lot of playstyles.

 

Very nicely worded / formulated.

 

Players get so caught up in eliminating their "enemies" that they can't present coherent and consistent complaints to the team. They also prevent other people with opposing views from doing that by derailing discussions. Then the net result is that things in the game continue on as usual while players undermine each other instead of work together.

 

This breeds lingering resentments against people who have a different perspective or complaint. This keeps players more focused on other players instead of their issues. People may leave in disgust before seeing whether or not their request made a difference and so on.

 

This reminds me of the "TV Tropes" entry of "Pandering To The Base" : http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PanderingToTheBase

 

So, just give the fans exactly what they want and everything will work out. Simple, huh?

 

Not quite. Generally speaking, the more intensely devoted fans in a fandom are usually outnumbered by the casual fans, but the more devoted a fan becomes, the more active (and louder) they become in the fandom. So while a few million casual fans might enjoy an episode without ever making it widely known, a handful of devoted and occasionally unhinged fans are screaming on a web forum about how the show is now Ruined FOREVER, which can be seen and heard by everyone... including the people making the show. The producers may then start pandering to these voices exclusively, believing them to be the voice of everyone watching (which they will often claim to be) — but "everyone" in this case may in fact consist only of a handful of people, and what this minority wants and what the other, less noisy fans want can differ drastically.

 

This presents a major problem. The property can end up becoming a private club, accessible only to a select few. Excluding the casual fans means they'll simply drift away to find something else to spend their time on, and raising the entry bar too high means you run the risk of locking out new fans who may have possibly been interested in the property, but now find it too difficult to access. While the vocal minority might now be satisfied (and you can't even count on that), they rarely translate to enough ratings and / or sales to justify the property's continued existence — and to make matters worse, even this hardcore minority may begin to drift away for numerous reasons (changing tastes, burnout, lessened interest, etc). This results in diminishing returns ending in eventual cancellation if unchecked.

 

Furthermore, the overall quality of the property can begin to suffer; just because someone is intensely committed to a particular work of fiction doesn't necessarily mean they know what makes good fiction work. The hardcore fans are generally fascinated by the backstory, trivia and continuity which can build up around a franchise, but this doesn't necessarily make riveting entertainment to anyone less interested in all of this stuff.

Edited January 16, 2017 by AlrikFassbauer

[Xo-Lara]

Very nicely worded / formulated.

 

Thank you.

 

The problem here is that the changes weren't made to appease players, they were made to fit a certain vision or design philosophy. Unfortunately, it feels like that vision didn't take into account how players might feel about having their playstyle changed. No one is a prophet, but I feel the team too often tries to bluff their way through decisions that go badly, like the comanion nerf. Then they get backed into a corner later by subscription loss and have to make reactionary changes when they could have acted before the issue turned into a crisis.

Edited January 16, 2017 by Xo-Lara

[RagnarAugustus]

Someone within Bioware management decided to rip the rug from under players for their own personal vision and now players who don't fit into that vision are upset. Their money was taken in addition to having the rug ripped from under them. BUT, the most vocal complainers complain because they still want the game. They don't want to leave. So now they are stuck with two options, either campaign for change or walk off.

 

Both are disagreeable, but only one stands a chance, however remote, of seeing a return to having fun in SWTOR.

 

Precisely, I'd rather let the devs know what they did wrong and have the possibility of having it fixed than get mad, leave, and not have the game fixed. Over the past week I've seen solo PVE guys complaining about Galactic Command and RNG loot and those were the guys that GC was implemented to help so something is not right on many levels.

[RagnarAugustus]

While I understand they're is hate and anger, is it really that bad? I think not.

 

No it is actually worse if you're a raider because for us gearing is not an end goal it's the means to raid harder and harder content because we like the challenge. However with the RNG grind there is no planning to get your entire raid group geared to get back to HM\NM - and definintely no gearing an off spec for your main, it's all up to chance and the whims of RNGesus. And with all of the Operations nerfs in 4.0 to cater to a wider audience once you've raided at a higher level where failing to obey mechanics have actual consequences story mode is no longer very fun. But it is story mode in which we are trapped until we get lucky enough to have gear drop that I don't have to disintegrate. So really, we're stuck in story mode for the foreseeable future and that is frustrating.

 

5.0 is also alt hostile which further harms raiding guilds because we can no longer gear an off spec on our main or an alternate toon to fill in for our 2nd or 3rd ops progression groups should they have an absence. So now they have to try to find a PUG that probably doesn't want to band his head against Revan HM for 2 hours or cancel the op. I've seen so many raiders give up and quit, so many guilds say screw it and leave since 5.0 and that's not a good thing and the game is suffering for it. It's already difficult to find a raid even in group finder on Harbinger.

 

The solution to this is rather simple, keep Galactic Command for the non-raiding PVE solo guys to gear - perhaps with a CXP buff due to the grindiness of the system and reinstate 4.0 operations loot system in its entirety with zero changes. Everybody wins and everyone is happy. I know the PVP guys are unhappy and I think their needs must be met too but I won't propose any solutions for them (they are capable of doing so) since I don't PVP.

Edited January 16, 2017 by RagnarAugustus

[DanNV]

Precisely, I'd rather let the devs know what they did wrong and have the possibility of having it fixed than get mad, leave, and not have the game fixed. Over the past week I've seen solo PVE guys complaining about Galactic Command and RNG loot and those were the guys that GC was implemented to help so something is not right on many levels.

 

The problem is, it wasn't really designed to help them. That's just an excuse to try to keep them from revolting, too. The system is designed strictly to keep people subbed longer. That's it and how it was reported to EA share holders. That's why the only way to really get their attention is to stop paying them.

[Draaconis]

"Why all the hate?"

 

It is just how it is with online games of any kind. You have people that like to solo, some like groups, others like PVP, still others like doing some of everything. Then there are the bottom of the barrel whiners. They are typically not very bright or very good so they have to whine to enjoy the game. Instead of conforming to a game they are not very good at, they have to whine until it is changed to suit their inability to adapt.

[Xo-Lara]

The problem is, it wasn't really designed to help them. That's just an excuse to try to keep them from revolting, too. The system is designed strictly to keep people subbed longer. That's it and how it was reported to EA share holders. That's why the only way to really get their attention is to stop paying them.

 

This is what I suspect too. Although, I suspect that the hire ups are being given the same" Well, we can't show you fully but if you trust us it will be great" line. Players are being told they'll love what's coming, higher ups are being told they'll love future gains, and all of us end up not getting what was stated with another request for more time and patience.