Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Truga]

@Xcore, since they're "preparing a statement" (that's how I understood the dreddit response), my guess is this is working as intended for now, and they're going to go into a long post about how animations matter etc...

 

Or, it's not working as intended, but very hard to fix, and will also be left in this state for a while.

[csslakai]

Yeah, I will be giving them howveer long it takes to level my sage to 50, and maybe 1 or 2 alts to fix this. Really not much to do besides questing and easy 4 man content.

 

I don't see how anyone can play competitive, challenging content PVE or PVP with this unresponsive system.

 

I love starwars and i love single player bioware games, so i'll give them some time, unlike warhammer ( they got 3 months of my time to waste)

 

But the fact that this is basically the same problem as warhammer, and the fact that EA rushed the game out before it was even close to ready is really disturbing.

 

I can tell you this, I will never buy another EA MMO again, and the only reason i did this time was the starwars name on it. But if they don't get this fixed fast,never again will EA fool me out of my cash

 

U have a point !

[mbernert]

This is a major issue for me as well, as I've posted numerous times, but try to have some patience with them.

 

I have some programming experience (nothing on a large gaming scale like this) but i don't believe this is so easy as an overnight fix. They have to identify the problem, then consider the long term effects of any option they may come up with to fix it. Could if effect quests, interactions between npcs? It might even be a very baseline fault of the engine coding itself. I really don't believe they can just say "oh hey, line 4,552 of page 55 in the code needs to have a variable reduced by .2". They know of the issue, they are considering/thinking/and or planning on what to do about it, of that I have no doubt

[Cherme]

Just want to add, that I also experiance this issue, and that it makes healing absolutely hell. Not sure how long i'll stick with this mmo if its not resolved.

[Khoranth]

@Xcore, since they're "preparing a statement" (that's how I understood the dreddit response), my guess is this is working as intended for now, and they're going to go into a long post about how animations matter etc...

 

Or, it's not working as intended, but very hard to fix, and will also be left in this state for a while.

 

They are not truly 'preparing a statement' on how to fix the problem. This problem existed for years and beta testers begged them to fix it, and they ignored the beta testers and released the game anyways.

 

Apparently they thought non beta testers would not notice( or not care about) unresponsive combat.

 

They have ahd over a year to prepare this statement, since they knew about years ago when the beta testers reported this issue.

[baznasty]

Best way I can explain it is like this:

 

For people who say there isn't an issue, the issue is there you just don't see it.

 

It would be the same as, let's say you have a very low end computer. You are able to play battlefield 3 and modern warfare 3 on that computer but both have to be played on "very low" settings. Now, because of your computer limitations you might say to someone, "I don't know what everyone is saying, COD looks just as good as BF3 to me." The reason you can say that, and it's true for you, is because your computer won't let you see the difference.

 

Now, someone like me and people with top-end computers can see immediately that BF3 is one of the best looking games ever made and CoD looks outdated. Lighting engine etc is a masterpiece. If you put them side by side with both of them on Ultra, anyone could tell that they are way different.

 

Same applies here, we are playing this game in such a manner that we can see things that the "casual" player doesn't see. We notice minor defects (although to me this one is major) that someone who isn't interested in squeezing every last ounce of potential out of their class may not see.

 

Again, the issue exists, you just may not see it.

[Saxifonte]

Ya know, the things they describe in here remind me of what I've been blaming on my computer/performance. I've been trying to get an upgraded PC after the upgraded video card didn't help the responsiveness or frame delay very much. It really surprises me that I'm not the only one having these problems.

 

The GCD should stomp on the animations, not the other way around. That needs to be fixed. Put the GCD timer on the client, rather than the server, and let the client tell the server what our character is doing instead of "asking permission" every time we do something (causing more lag to the server and back).

[sdream]

line 4,552 of page 55

 

Page 55? Oh boy, I hope they don't develop in either Basic or Assembler

[Thankyjack]

I agree with OP 100%.

 

In fact, I posted the same issue regarding Rift and, before that, Warhammer OL.

 

This is a great game and it's very early after release, but I am not sure these issues can be addressed. WoW has always had the most fluid movement and character control of all MMOs. It's the primary reason that people stay with WoW.

 

Hopefully, Bioware can address this issue, but I think anything outside of a new game engine would do little to improve this fluidity/control issue.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Thankyjack

[sdream]

The GCD should stomp on the animations, not the other way around. That needs to be fixed. Put the GCD timer on the client, rather than the server, and let the client tell the server what our character is doing instead of "asking permission" every time we do something (causing more lag to the server and back).

 

Bad idea. Client side GCD can be exploited with some clever hacking into client code >.> If it's just a matter of synchronization between client and server, there are ways to compensate for the latency.

[fallenvirtues]

Best way I can explain it is like this:

 

For people who say there isn't an issue, the issue is there you just don't see it.

 

It would be the same as, let's say you have a very low end computer. You are able to play battlefield 3 and modern warfare 3 on that computer but both have to be played on "very low" settings. Now, because of your computer limitations you might say to someone, "I don't know what everyone is saying, COD looks just as good as BF3 to me." The reason you can say that, and it's true for you, is because your computer won't let you see the difference.

 

Now, someone like me and people with top-end computers can see immediately that BF3 is one of the best looking games ever made and CoD looks outdated. Lighting engine etc is a masterpiece. If you put them side by side with both of them on Ultra, anyone could tell that they are way different.

 

Same applies here, we are playing this game in such a manner that we can see things that the "casual" player doesn't see. We notice minor defects (although to me this one is major) that someone who isn't interested in squeezing every last ounce of potential out of their class may not see.

 

Again, the issue exists, you just may not see it.

 

I'm gonna go ahead and disagree...Just because we dont experience all of the problem or any of it, doesnt mean we are just casual, or not good players, or have poor receptiveness....We just dont experience it..

 

I think its pretty crappy that you automatically assume someone isnt as good as you or some @##$ like that because they dont have a problem...

 

My desktop at home is pretty damn powerful that I had assembled, I have been raiding and pvp'n in MMO's since 2004 and been pretty damn successful with it..And honestly, there were times in WOW where'd I hit the button and it glitched or didnt respond at all...saying that WOW is perfect in that department isnt entirely true

[Khoranth]

Best way I can explain it is like this:

 

For people who say there isn't an issue, the issue is there you just don't see it.

 

It would be the same as, let's say you have a very low end computer. You are able to play battlefield 3 and modern warfare 3 on that computer but both have to be played on "very low" settings. Now, because of your computer limitations you might say to someone, "I don't know what everyone is saying, COD looks just as good as BF3 to me." The reason you can say that, and it's true for you, is because your computer won't let you see the difference.

 

Now, someone like me and people with top-end computers can see immediately that BF3 is one of the best looking games ever made and CoD looks outdated. Lighting engine etc is a masterpiece. If you put them side by side with both of them on Ultra, anyone could tell that they are way different.

 

Same applies here, we are playing this game in such a manner that we can see things that the "casual" player doesn't see. We notice minor defects (although to me this one is major) that someone who isn't interested in squeezing every last ounce of potential out of their class may not see.

 

Again, the issue exists, you just may not see it.

 

The people who are not experiencing the problem are people who press an ability, then watch the animation, then press another ability.

 

They are watching the animation and waiting for it to end to use their next ability.

 

The people who are having problems are the ones who are using the GCD to choose when to press another button. Or people trying to use off the GCD abilities, without waiting for animations to end.

 

It is pretty obvious the animations are the problem, and some hidden GCD attached to animations that bugs your combat controls out if you press a button while it is still going.

 

I don't notice the problem questing or doing 4mans cause i watch my characters animations, cause the content is extremely easy so i don't 'play well' or maximize my character.

 

When i try warzones, i see the problem immediately, because i am actually trying to maximize my effectiveness.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Khoranth

[mbernert]

I'm gonna go ahead and disagree...Just because we dont experience all of the problem or any of it, doesnt mean we are just casual, or not good players, or have poor receptiveness....We just dont experience it..

 

I think its pretty crappy that you automatically assume someone isnt as good as you or some @##$ like that because they dont have a problem...

 

My desktop at home is pretty damn powerful that I had assembled, I have been raiding and pvp'n in MMO's since 2004 and been pretty damn successful with it..And honestly, there were times in WOW where'd I hit the button and it glitched or didnt respond at all...saying that WOW is perfect in that department isnt entirely true

 

Its hard to not assume that for the people who do say they don't see the problem.

 

An example: I picked up a shadow priest in trade a few weeks ago in wow, he was in full ruthless, wanted to get points. He was horrible, I tried asking him on skype what was going on, and I finally noticed the problem when the said he misclicked dispersion at the wrong time.

 

I talked with him for a while after that match, we didn't que again. But he had been playing wow, to a certain degree of success, for him at least, for quite a few years. My point being is some people have no idea just what exactly they are missing, and I don't think they ever will. That doesn't make them a bad person, or a horrible player, they just aren't a player who has to be optimal in what they do, and is very competitive.

 

I feel this way about every person who posts they don't see, understand or think this is a problem here.

[Xcore]

I'm gonna go ahead and disagree...Just because we dont experience all of the problem or any of it, doesnt mean we are just casual, or not good players, or have poor receptiveness....We just dont experience it..

 

I think its pretty crappy that you automatically assume someone isnt as good as you or some @##$ like that because they dont have a problem...

 

My desktop at home is pretty damn powerful that I had assembled, I have been raiding and pvp'n in MMO's since 2004 and been pretty damn successful with it..And honestly, there were times in WOW where'd I hit the button and it glitched or didnt respond at all...saying that WOW is perfect in that department isnt entirely true

 

This is part of the problem, accepting that something you yourself cannot perceive but is in fact true due indisputable and factual evidence is not always easy. I'm not going to call names or label you a casual, a noob or whatever else. However, I will state that you do have the same exact thing happening but simply and honestly do not notice it. This could be for various reasons but those are personal and not external (computer, game etc.)

 

It's much like a a tree falling in the forest, it does in fact make a sound. Even though the deaf person is camping in the forest and did not hear it, it did make a sound.. but it gets ridiculous when you walk him over to the felled tree and he still claims it didnt fall last night.

[Shuriko]

These issues are still present as Original Poster have described and shown with some help from the Community.

Do we have a estimate on when It will be or might be taken care of?

 

I do know that the game is abit young, but I still feel like these things are vital in order to keep players. If the charachters isnt doing what they are supposed to do after a keypress It starts to feel tedious and Frustrating.

[Komitar]

Agree with the OP. I thought maybe it was just me. When people ask me how combat is in the game, I always say it feels a bit clunky. But that is what it is. Its not as responsive as I would like. Some characters are more affected then others. My sniper isnt nearly as bad as my jugg.

[arcanewon]

Not sure if everyone read the thread, but there is a posted interview with Stephen Reid where he states that they are going to address the delay with the community soon...

 

Could be good.

[FrieAaron]

I'm gonna go ahead and disagree...Just because we dont experience all of the problem or any of it, doesnt mean we are just casual, or not good players, or have poor receptiveness....We just dont experience it..

 

The thing is it exists for everyone. Maybe you're not bad - maybe you've just gotten accustomed to it. Out of curiosity, how often do you pvp? I know for me in pve I don't really notice it anymore because I just know it exists. I know that for certain abilities that I use it just takes X amount of time before I can use a different one. But in pvp, where I use an ability and then make a split second decision like "I have to use my stun NOW" it's quite obvious.

[Zerbruz]

Hope bioware will announce their thoughts on this soon, its the biggest problem in the game at the moment.

[asbalana]

And no improvements were ever made when 100 people said on a forum once that a bug is game breaking or the game will die in 2 months.

 

I do remember when people went to the WOW forums to identify issues and problems after the release of Cata. The devs treated them with contempt and fanboys attacked. That is when they were not being ignored or having their threads and posts deleted. That was two million subs lost ago and the population is still dropping like a rock. I do hope that there is a response from BW and it is not "working as intended".

 

I have read any number of posts from top notch and competitive players (like the keybind everything guy/gal) in this thread. I am neither. I am BWs worst nightmare because I am an average player and am one drop in the main ocean of their subs. As such, I am seeing the issue identified by the OP and it is detracting from my gaming experience. I have cast spells and had them lag terribly before they actually fire. I have cast spells and had them misfire. I have cast spells (like mind maze against non droids) and have them fire with no effect at all (no stun after they hit). I have cast mind maze (a sixty second stun) against an npc and done nothing after (so as to not deal damage) to watch it's effect and seen the npc come out of it in three to five seconds. As a JC Shadow, I am not overpowering in the direct damage dealt by my attacks. I depend on stuns and dots and if I can't stun when I have to and lag when I try to apply my dots, I am toast. If an average player is noticing the issues raised by the OP and having his/her game play affected then indeed BW has a problem. I am not saying that it will kill the game or whatever. I am saying that the combat system with the problems identified (and a few others) will make my time playing the game much less. If a significant number of people (average players) who do not come to the forum are feeling as I do, it does not bode well.

[mutharex]

The thing is it exists for everyone. Maybe you're not bad - maybe you've just gotten accustomed to it. Out of curiosity, how often do you pvp? I know for me in pve I don't really notice it anymore because I just know it exists. I know that for certain abilities that I use it just takes X amount of time before I can use a different one. But in pvp, where I use an ability and then make a split second decision like "I have to use my stun NOW" it's quite obvious.

 

I don't PVP (I don't like instanced PVP) and don't notice it, so probably it's more noticeable in WZ. An easy fix would be allowing animation clipping when you are flagged for PVP.I'd look ugly but work while they identify and fix the real reason

[fallenvirtues]

The thing is it exists for everyone. Maybe you're not bad - maybe you've just gotten accustomed to it. Out of curiosity, how often do you pvp? I know for me in pve I don't really notice it anymore because I just know it exists. I know that for certain abilities that I use it just takes X amount of time before I can use a different one. But in pvp, where I use an ability and then make a split second decision like "I have to use my stun NOW" it's quite obvious.

 

I been leveling more then anything but my valor rank is almost 10..

 

What I am saying is I pay attention to my GCD's when it comes time to execute the next ability...Unless its a chain like Force Choke or etc, I am able to use my abilities back to back once GCD is up...I do have the same scenario for instant attacks like when I throw my saber...Even though its instant, it doesnt do damage until the saber hits and @#$% like that....So If I am able to use abilities right after one another when the GCD is up tells me I dont have the delay problem...

 

Now I will admit now after thinking about it a little more...I could be experiencing it slightly in PvP to where I am not really noticing only because things are a lot more high pace..But It hasnt effected my gameplay to where I notice

 

What I have noticed that especially while pvp'n is hitting my button and nothing happening...As I have stated from the beginning, that happens often while pvp'n and occasionally while pve'n and its annoying...

 

Overall, I like the combat system, but it is obviously broken and needs to be fixed...I do believe they will eventually take care of it and I have not lost hope...yet..But It's not gamebreaking nearly enough for me to stop playing

 

So go ahead and flame me and say its not true and I just dont notice it whatever you have to say..But I still stick my story and thats that

[Darren_Kitlor]

Stephen Reid answered this question recently:

 

Q: Ability Delay. Have you guys discussed this internally, and if so, is there an ETA for a fix on this issue?

 

Hey! It has been discussed internally, and we'll talk about it publicly soon. It's not a simple issue so we don't want to issue a quick, off-the-cuff response.

 

source:

Edited December 29, 2011 by Darren_Kitlor

[Khoranth]

I don't PVP (I don't like instanced PVP) and don't notice it, so probably it's more noticeable in WZ. An easy fix would be allowing animation clipping when you are flagged for PVP.I'd look ugly but work while they identify and fix the real reason

 

The problem is the animations carry on beyond the GCD ( or cast time) and if you try to use another ability while this 'hidden animation GCD' is still going, then you basically bug out your combat control and it makes the game won't respond to your key presses correctly.

 

When you are doing easy content, you are more likely to sit back, smell the roses, and watch animations, and play off animations instead of the GCD.

 

When you PVP, you are trying to activate abilities asap, so you really start to notice the problem then.

 

The easy fix for this is to just increase the GCD to match the 'hidden animation GCD'

So if i have a particular instant ability with a 2.5 second animation, then my GCD should take 2.5 seconds to spin up, so it matches up with the animation.

[Xcore]

I do remember when people went to the WOW forums to identify issues and problems after the release of Cata. The devs treated them with contempt and fanboys attacked. That is when they were not being ignored or having their threads and posts deleted. That was two million subs lost ago and the population is still dropping like a rock. I do hope that there is a response from BW and it is not "working as intended".

 

I have read any number of posts from top notch and competitive players (like the keybind everything guy/gal) in this thread. I am neither. I am BWs worst nightmare because I am an average player and am one drop in the main ocean of their subs. As such, I am seeing the issue identified by the OP and it is detracting from my gaming experience. I have cast spells and had them lag terribly before they actually fire. I have cast spells and had them misfire. I have cast spells (like mind maze against non droids) and have them fire with no effect at all (no stun after they hit). I have cast mind maze (a sixty second stun) against an npc and done nothing after (so as to not deal damage) to watch it's effect and seen the npc come out of it in three to five seconds. As a JC Shadow, I am not overpowering in the direct damage dealt by my attacks. I depend on stuns and dots and if I can't stun when I have to and lag when I try to apply my dots, I am toast. If an average player is noticing the issues raised by the OP and having his/her game play affected then indeed BW has a problem. I am not saying that it will kill the game or whatever. I am saying that the combat system with the problems identified (and a few others) will make my time playing the game much less. If a significant number of people (average players) who do not come to the forum are feeling as I do, it does not bode well.

 

This is a very good post even if its a block of text because it pinpoint the danger that SW:TOR is facing. The forum is a representation of the mood of the overall community, yes it is a calcuable % and representation of the people who never even come onto the forums but still share the same views.

 

This thread and this subject have created a staggering amount of recognition and support on the forums, that much is undeniable. The thousands of people who have followed this thread (i find it far more likely to be in the thousands than hundreds) are a mere fraction of the people who are in game, not following the forums but share the same sympathies.

 

Bioware need not be concerned about me being affected by this or even a few thousand forum goers but they do need to be concerned about the silent masses who simply leave, without a word but because of this same "seemingly" un-identifiable issue.

 

 

Nice post Asbalana, I'd like to add a reference to it in the OP.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Xcore