RNG is Gambling

[RiVaN_]

As someone who grew up with an obsessive compulsive gambler (aka gambling addict) and who himself became a gambling addict in his youth I honestly believe that the GC system is a form of gambling. Only I'm gambling with my time, not money.

I have stayed clear of the cartel market after I spent my car payment on hypercrates. I felt that same rush I used to feel when I was playing the slot machines or watching a race or a ball game I had bet on. I spent an outrageous amount of money in the Cartel Market that first month it was open... I gambled away so much real world money, for what? The chance to "win" some shiny in game bling. I was stupid.

 

With the Galactic command system I'm now gambling with my time. My wife had to pull me away from the computer at 3am earlier this week because I had been grinding away for about 16 hours trying to get that next crate. I wasn't willing to leave the chair, I had to keep doing heroics to try fill that gold bar and get that next satisfying pop up window telling me I had a new crate.

 

Galactic Command is a gambling system, disguised as a frustratingly addictive video game mechanic plain and simple. I felt the call of that old demon around CR4 and I now know that I can't keep pulling that lever hoping for my next big payout. What makes me really sad is that children play this game and you are teaching them that gambling is a "fun" way of life.

[Menetes]

So are cartel market packs and hypercrates, its how you get people to spend more money, making them hope that although noone else has openeed anything good, YOU WILL BE THE ONE!

[Anishor]

Thank you sir for sharing your experience.

[Vember]

Getting out of bed is gambling with your time.

[JabbaWabbA]

Getting out of bed is gambling with your time.

 

?????????

[MadDutchman]

utilizing this logic, almost everything is gambling.

 

Life itself is gambling. You are constantly placing bets that circumstances and events will turn out as you want them to.

 

 

That rush you describe when you gamble is the same thing a kid feels when opening a Christmas present, or the discovery of anything new, unknown and exciting. I highly doubt you consider these gambling however. Where the issue comes in is when it becomes an addiction, and this can happen with almost anything. If we restricted any activity because it has the chance of being addictive, life would be very boring indeed.

 

It is up to parents to educate children on healthy choices in all things, including "disguised gambling" on video games. It is not possible for content producers to restrict material because kids might encounter it.

Edited December 9, 2016 by MadDutchman

[RiVaN_]

utilizing this logic, almost everything is gambling.

 

Life itself is gambling. You are constantly placing bets that circumstances and events will turn out as you want them to.

 

 

That rush you describe when you gamble is the same thing a kid feels when opening a Christmas present, or the discovery of anything new, unknown and exciting. I highly doubt you consider these gambling however. Where the issue comes in is when it becomes an addiction, and this can happen with almost anything. If we restricted any activity because it has the chance of being addictive, life would be very boring indeed.

 

It is up to parents to educate children on healthy choices in all things, including "disguised gambling" on video games. It is not possible for content producers to restrict material because kids might encounter it.

 

 

Given your statement I don't expect you to understand the difference between something that simply feels good and gives you a rush of excitement and something that is purposely designed to be be addictive. Slot machines are designed to keep you coming back, everything is a casino is designed to keep you in, to keep you coming back.

 

Christmas presents are a gift and the idea is that you are grateful that someone thought enough of you to give you that gift. It isn't designed to be a repetitive event.

If I keep giving aunt sally hugs she will keep giving me presents untill I get the one I like. That's not how it works and that logic is flawed.

But a system that is designed to give you a reward based in time committed and money spent is gambling. I'm not gambling when I open aunt Sally's gift because it is a gift, but I am gambling when I spend 16 hours and $15 on the chance that I might get a big payout in the SWTOR Galactic command machine.

 

Again I honestly believe that you won't get it, that you won't understand. But there might be some out there reading this who may some who have been grinding away for hours and hours not realizing the rut they are in. Maybe they will read this and remember that night at that casino in St Louis when they had to have dad Western Union them $50 bucks because they spent the gas money they needed to make that drive halfway across the country. Or that night the slept out in the rain in Atlantic City because they gambled away their hotel money and their friends weren't picking them up till the next day.

 

I don't expect everyone to understand the addiction, but it starts at a young age and for those with an inherent addictive personality this could be the trigger.

[Munithe]

I'm not sure why people are trying to argue against this, it very obviously is a form of gambling. It's the reason why China introduced the laws to force developers to release details of drop rates on loot boxes, and the reason why mobile games have been criticised for the way they target whales; i.e luring in vulnerable people who are susceptible to parting with their cash for a chance of something shiny. They end up spending thousands because they are hooked like a drug. It's a business strategy based on playing on people's susceptibility to addiction and it is a predatory strategy. Edited December 9, 2016 by Munithe

[martinbaker]

Star Wars: The Old Casino

[sparkdva]

I actually just don't get why developers have such a hard on for loot crates and rng boxes now. They are in almost every game now and some do them good other do them terrible. I don't mind rng boxes like overwatch, but when the main point of the game revolves around them like they do in tor and wow now It just becomes distasteful.

[Eshvara]

Star Wars: The Old Casino

 

I find this funnier than it actually is.

[Munithe]

Even in Overwatch it can be pretty bad because of the events with limited edition costumes. If you want a Mercy Halloween costume, you can grind hard and hope for the best, but if it's getting close to the end of the event and you still don't have it, the only way to get it is to spend a bunch of money until you get it. Edited December 9, 2016 by Munithe

[MadDutchman]

Given your statement I don't expect you to understand the difference between something that simply feels good and gives you a rush of excitement and something that is purposely designed to be be addictive. Slot machines are designed to keep you coming back, everything is a casino is designed to keep you in, to keep you coming back.

 

Christmas presents are a gift and the idea is that you are grateful that someone thought enough of you to give you that gift. It isn't designed to be a repetitive event.

If I keep giving aunt sally hugs she will keep giving me presents untill I get the one I like. That's not how it works and that logic is flawed.

But a system that is designed to give you a reward based in time committed and money spent is gambling. I'm not gambling when I open aunt Sally's gift because it is a gift, but I am gambling when I spend 16 hours and $15 on the chance that I might get a big payout in the SWTOR Galactic command machine.

 

Again I honestly believe that you won't get it, that you won't understand. But there might be some out there reading this who may some who have been grinding away for hours and hours not realizing the rut they are in. Maybe they will read this and remember that night at that casino in St Louis when they had to have dad Western Union them $50 bucks because they spent the gas money they needed to make that drive halfway across the country. Or that night the slept out in the rain in Atlantic City because they gambled away their hotel money and their friends weren't picking them up till the next day.

 

I don't expect everyone to understand the addiction, but it starts at a young age and for those with an inherent addictive personality this could be the trigger.

 

 

I think you missed the part where I stated that those activities would not gambling, however can still lead to an addiction. Have you never seen a couple 6-7 year olds scheming how to get the best load of Christmas presents from their parents/relatives? At that age of course it's cute, but it's the same idea.

 

And our entire Western society (of which I'm assuming you are a member) is based on getting a chance of greater rewards based on time and money spent. It's called capitalism.

 

The point I'm trying to make is everything from the food we eat to the shows we watch to the games we play are designed to keep you coming back. Imagine a restaurant that didn't try to make their meals worth having twice, or a game with 0 replayability. It is our choices that matter, the boundaries we set upon ourselves and our behaviour.

 

I would hate to see anyone leave because a game system is causing them issues, however it is entirely up to you to find the right balance, it would be counter-productive for BW to try to find it for the community, since there are going to be people for whom the game itself is the addiction. It is not reasonable for beer stores to all close down because some people are alcoholics, nor is game responsible for restricting any content that could be addictive. There would be no content at all then.

 

If the proximity to the gambling in SWTOR is too much for you at this time, it may be time to make a hard choice. As I said, I'd hate to see you go over it, but you must concern yourself with your own well being.

[MollyDresden]

I'm not sure why people are trying to argue against this, it very obviously is a form of gambling.

 

Yep. I think the livestream comments confirmed that even the devs fully realize it's a form of gambling and think that gambling = fun and that's why RNG = fun.

[Andryah]

As someone who grew up with an obsessive compulsive gambler (aka gambling addict) and who himself became a gambling addict in his youth I honestly believe that the GC system is a form of gambling. Only I'm gambling with my time, not money.

I have stayed clear of the cartel market after I spent my car payment on hypercrates. I felt that same rush I used to feel when I was playing the slot machines or watching a race or a ball game I had bet on. I spent an outrageous amount of money in the Cartel Market that first month it was open... I gambled away so much real world money, for what? The chance to "win" some shiny in game bling. I was stupid.

 

With the Galactic command system I'm now gambling with my time. My wife had to pull me away from the computer at 3am earlier this week because I had been grinding away for about 16 hours trying to get that next crate. I wasn't willing to leave the chair, I had to keep doing heroics to try fill that gold bar and get that next satisfying pop up window telling me I had a new crate.

 

Galactic Command is a gambling system, disguised as a frustratingly addictive video game mechanic plain and simple. I felt the call of that old demon around CR4 and I now know that I can't keep pulling that lever hoping for my next big payout. What makes me really sad is that children play this game and you are teaching them that gambling is a "fun" way of life.

 

I think it would be more accurate to state that RNG inside MMOs represent a variety of "games of chance".

 

For many, this is no issue, but clearly as you have stated.... you do have a personal addiction to games of chance, regardless of the reward. So for you, you do have to be careful and mindful not to over-indulge. You have to be mindful and take care of yourself since you do have the vulnerability.

 

But not everyone has the same addiction you do, and I think it is important to acknowledge this. Other people may have other compulsions and vulnerabilities.... like alcohol, or any manner of other items or activities. The list is endless, and in a way.... each is taking chances with their well being and the well being of family if they do not address it and manage it.

 

In reality gambling.. is fundamentally a legal term today, used by governments to set boundaries and requirements (sometimes complete prohibitions) as to what can be done and how. It implies the need to protect the public good from both nefarious behaviors by those providing the gambling as well as protecting individuals who have compulsions to keep gambling.

 

Governments use different terms and approaches to different "addictions" because there are many, and they each need to be addressed in different ways systemically in society, as well as for managing well being and recovery of those susceptible.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Andryah

[Frenesi]

RNG is many things, but gambling isn't one of them. There's no risk involved, and once you dig deep enough, you will realize there's no reward either. Otherwise, our entire life is gambling...

 

Which does sound about right, ok

[RiVaN_]

Governments use different terms and approaches to different "addictions" because there are many, and they each need to be addressed in different ways systemically in society, as well as for managing well being and recover of those susceptible.

 

You make very good points.

I maintain the point that such a grand scale game of chance, where the developers have made the endgame progression revolve around on great big game of chance, is potentially a very bad idea.

Not for them, but for consumers.

Although it will allow EA to reap plenty of income, they are also exposing young people to this type of lifestyle earlier than they should be.

Perhaps SWTOR should now be treated like the lottery and have a warning label and come with the gamblers anonymous hotline number?

I kidd, but I'm 1/2 serious too. The "game of chance" aspect is currently out of control.

[Costello]

I agree there is an addictive gambling element to the game with this form of content.

 

It is no doubt planned for, the people you want playing this game are addicts, cause they will never stop. Should they win they get a rush and its all about the win. They will keep gambling cause they want to repeat the feeling (i.e. get another BIS) and if they lose (which they will do more often) they keep going cause they think the next one will be the winner, that their luck will change.

 

Now this will effect everyone differently, however there should be a warning given with the game that it does promote gambling so parents can decide if that is something they want their children involved in. Likewise if anyone has an addictive personality (i.e. they easily become addicted to things) that they too can make an informed decision.

 

But at the end of the day this would probably be counter productive as you want the addicts subscribing and even better if you can sell them 25% boosts cause that will let them get that hit even quicker.

[doelow]

I actually just don't get why developers have such a hard on for loot crates and rng boxes now. They are in almost every game now and some do them good other do them terrible. I don't mind rng boxes like overwatch, but when the main point of the game revolves around them like they do in tor and wow now It just becomes distasteful.

 

Because it works, and their business is not concerned with your well-being or ethics. They are concerned with money. If manipulating and exploiting human psychology is better for the bottom line, then so be it. That's simply the reality of it. Designing addictive, grind-focused, gambling systems is low cost but potentially massive profits. It becomes a time/money thing.

 

It's all about squeezing as much productivity as you can for the least amount of manpower (because manpower = wages you must pay out) and hooking "consumers" in with clever marketing and exploiting their psychology and impulses. Gaming has this kind of practice down to an art form at this point. It has really poisoned the hobby.

[eartharioch]

With the Galactic command system I'm now gambling with my time. My wife had to pull me away from the computer at 3am earlier this week because I had been grinding away for about 16 hours trying to get that next crate. I wasn't willing to leave the chair, I had to keep doing heroics to try fill that gold bar and get that next satisfying pop up window telling me I had a new crate.

 

Galactic Command is a gambling system, disguised as a frustratingly addictive video game mechanic plain and simple. I felt the call of that old demon around CR4 and I now know that I can't keep pulling that lever hoping for my next big payout. What makes me really sad is that children play this game and you are teaching them that gambling is a "fun" way of life.

 

You're really stretching things...what you are describing isn't really gambling, it's the "just one more turn" feeling common in many games. I remember ditching class just to play "one more turn" of the original Civ game. You pay more one (or more) monthly blocks at a time, and even if you are desperate enough to buy CXP boosts, they aren't exploiting a gambling addiction. That said, the Civilization "just one more turn" effect was positive (I enjoyed each turn so I wanted to play another one) while GC is decidedly negative (you want to get one more crate because you *didn't like the one you just got).

 

If anything, GC is good (in a not-for-BW way) in that it can lead you into thinking about whether or not you really need something and if it's worth the expected cost.

[-Spc]

So pets are new gear ?

 

at level 34 i just got:

1. pet

2. level 10 empty orange item

 

Edited December 9, 2016 by -Spc

[RiVaN_]

You're really stretching things...what you are describing isn't really gambling, it's the "just one more turn" feeling common in many games. I remember ditching class just to play "one more turn" of the original Civ game. You pay more one (or more) monthly blocks at a time, and even if you are desperate enough to buy CXP boosts, they aren't exploiting a gambling addiction. That said, the Civilization "just one more turn" effect was positive (I enjoyed each turn so I wanted to play another one) while GC is decidedly negative (you want to get one more crate because you *didn't like the one you just got).

 

If anything, GC is good (in a not-for-BW way) in that it can lead you into thinking about whether or not you really need something and if it's worth the expected cost.

 

That's the thing, when one activity begins to interfere with another that is when it becomes a problem. You ditched class so you could keep going in a game. I stayed up until 3am on a day when I had to work the next day all for 1 more turn, one more level, 1 more crate.

The addiction is the problem, the game is the source and the mindset of, just one more is fed by the developers and we are all ok with it, we are all fine with feeding this addiction, this harmless vice.

To what end?

Where do we draw the line at companies exploiting human weakness?

Where is the line between ethical and unethical exploitation?

[Theeko]

Rng is Rng, every game is Rng

[eartharioch]

That's the thing, when one activity begins to interfere with another that is when it becomes a problem. You ditched class so you could keep going in a game. I stayed up until 3am on a day when I had to work the next day all for 1 more turn, one more level, 1 more crate.

The addiction is the problem, the game is the source and the mindset of, just one more is fed by the developers and we are all ok with it, we are all fine with feeding this addiction, this harmless vice.

To what end?

Where do we draw the line at companies exploiting human weakness?

Where is the line between ethical and unethical exploitation?

 

Where to draw the line *is* a valid question. But ask yourself, why are you playing a game at all? Hopefully it is because it brings you some benefit (relaxation, pleasure, whatever). *Anything* that brings us benefits could be technically called "addictive", so we do need to be careful when discussing whether or not somebody is trying to exploit our desire of benefits in a "bad" way.

 

As I pointed out, BW sells game time in monthly (or more) increments, so there is no *immediate* pressure to keep playing (or buying time). If your sub is about to run out, maybe you'll blow $15 on another month or $30 on a two-month time card, but then you have one or two months before BW hits you up again, and you have plenty of time to schedule your play time around more important things. "Real" gambling --- aka "casino" gambling (on-line or IRL) tries to exploit you as often as possible -- one more pull at the slot machine, one more hand, one more spin, whatever.

 

"Real" gambling tries to exploit immediate weaknesses in thinking (do you feel lucky, etc.). With swtor, we've seen enough of the odds to know that your chances of getting good gear in a decent amount of time are now *much* lower than before, so you can take your time to decide whether or not you want the 5.0 gear lifestyle. Before, you could figure out what your likely WZ/comm per hour rate (and thus gear acquisition rate) was, and you knew what you had to do to get ops gear. Now, it's [literally] a craps shoot.

[VirtualMorrigan]

So pets are new gear ?

 

at level 34 i just got:

1. pet

2. level 10 empty orange item

 

 

Just out of curiosity, what pet?