Bioware, and "learning from mistakes"

[rheia]

"Flexibility and learning from mistakes really appear to be the theme of this latest expansion. "

-From the interview with Ben Irving and Charles Boyd

 

But is it really?

 

Let's take a walk down a memory lane, shall we?

 

Those of you guys who were around at the game's launch will remember how gearing worked at some point in normal operations and pvp.

 

To those who weren't: normal mode operations loot was auto-assigned to a random person based on their class. That often lead to the cases where someone received a columi gear token for the x time, while someone of the same class in the raid never got one. i.g. RNG at work.

 

In pvp, around 1.0 time we had 3 tiers of gear. centurion, which were upgraded by champion, which then was upgraded by battlemaster. You found battlemaster gear tokens (at random, and not guaranteed) in the loot bags. Which meant someone could keep on getting battlemaster bracers ad naseum, and, like one of my friends, never completed their battlemaster set (until they changed the system).

 

So what did Bioware do then?

 

Battlemaster Gear Tokens have been converted into Battlemaster Commendations, which can be used to purchase any Battlemaster gear. This allows players to purchase any piece of gear instead of requiring them to purchase the piece indicated by the token.

Battlemaster Bags now contain Battlemaster Commendations instead of Battlemaster Gear Tokens. They still also contain Champion Commendations.

 

-From Game Update 1.1 – Rise of the Rakghouls.

 

They scrapped the RNG system from PVP in 1.1!

 

And as for random autoassignment of loot in OPS?

 

Good news! We announced at the Guild Summit that we're removing this "pre-destined loot" system from Story difficulty in Game Update 1.2.

 

-by DavidBass

 

They scrapped the RNG from ops in 1.2!

 

In that light, how is reintroducing the the system they scrapped to make people happier, and in much more severe form, can be considered "learning from mistakes"?

Edited December 7, 2016 by rheia

[keitzy]

Ah the trip down memory lane. I remember being on fleet and how happy every one was when these anouncements were made.

I miss those days when I was GM of a Hm raiding guild. Raid leading, handing out gear to those that needed it. gearing up new players reall quick to get them raid ready. Drooling over rakata gear.

 

Fun times. I so miss them

[LogicalPremise]

There's two possible schools of thought as to why this was done. Either they plan to pair this thing with some sort of short-form episodic content, so that the 'grind' is not always the same stuff over and over, or they want to extend the lifespan of higher-level (NiM) raid content windows, so that they don't have to make as much ops related content.

 

The puzzling thing is the revamp to PVP, which honestly makes zero sense at all. Having no connection at all between PVP achievement and gearing does certainly open up ranked... but most people who aren't PvP focused are NOT going to enjoy ranked.

 

Some speculation as to the "why" behind this move is an interesting thing to consider.

[majopucik]

Nah you have to put in some recent stuff, not 1.x stuff

 

Like the stacking exploit and now we had a cxp stacking exploit

[DanNV]

For some reason, BW has decided to remake all of their 1.x mistakes. Last year it was all story with no endgame in sight. (Same problem they had at launch with similar results. People showed up, played the story and left.) This year it's promises of upcoming group content, but nothing real in sight and random gearing that failed miserably in 1.0. I was on a server that ended up with a good day being 20 people on fleet. I know how little fun it is when you can't find anyone to do group content with because the server is a ghost town. Expecting anything but the same result from repeating the same mistakes is foolish at best.

[Tsetso]

I don't think Ben Irving was here at launch. In fact i think not one of the current devs have anything to do with the vanila SWTOR

[Alphasgimaone]

Dallas>Eric

[kirorx]

Battle master bags lol argh

 

Just wait untill you are a level 1 command point character against geared up command point 300 characters.

 

Remember not having brackets and just having god like level 50's running around void star lol .

[DanNV]

I don't think Ben Irving was here at launch. In fact i think not one of the current devs have anything to do with the vanila SWTOR

 

Most of them weren't but the history is all out there. If the Devs can't bother to look at the company's past failures then they don't deserve to be designing games. Ben and Michael shouldn't be around for 5.0.1 but I doubt any senior management has the stones to fire them.

[Wayshuba]

More importantly what were the results of those mistakes in v1.x era:

 

They held a guild summit to appease the major guild leaders (our guild leader went as we had more than 300 people in the guild at the time), the acted like all was well and they knew how to fix it and didn't listen to ANY feedback or only heard the portions they wanted to hear.

 

As a result, of not listening following that we had:

 

Almost a 75% drop in subscriptions an an exodus happening so fast, even the MMO press entitled it the TORtanic.

And then we had:

 

F2P introduced in a record pace after a game's launch that at least enabled it to survive.

 

So far, we have the CxP/RNG system, an massive uproar and tons of posts about unsubbing, an article on MassivelyOP showing the very selective hearing of the BioWare team.

 

So it follows we will now have:

A livestream addressing the concerns of the community on the CxP/RNG system. Unless they specifically say they are getting rid of it, going back to the 4.0 era, gear on the fleets, WZ commendations and crystals. (Which let's be honest, we know they are not going to because they just plain don't listen and feel it is perfectly acceptable to have a business model where upsetting your customer is good business).

 

Which will lead to - a continued rapid decline in the number of paying subs.

 

Which is then followed by.... ooops. No F2P to save you this time. Even worse, with the CxP system you basically told all the F2P and Preferred players to go away.

 

Not only have they not learned. They are going to repeat the exact same mistakes and get the exact same results. The question this time though is, could they survive losing 75% of the remaining player base?

Edited December 7, 2016 by Wayshuba

[TUXs]

It's all smoke and mirrors these days...stick around just a little bit longer and they'll make you happy...seriously...just a few months longer...they'll announce when they'll make an announcement about something that may be what you want to hear...but they can't say anything yet.

 

There is no learning, just dragging out the inevitable.

[Nothing_Shines]

Maybe they're going for a sort of palindrome overarching development cadence and their followup will be releasing a boxed, reissue of the physical edition of SWTOR launch version 0.0 in stores.

 

It's like poetry, sort of. They rhyme.

[Kirtastropohe]

It does boggle the mind that they would repeat the mistakes of the past, especially when the reasons for those failures are so incredibly clear. Equally frustrating is that everyone told them, before launch of 5.0, what was wrong with the system and what the results would be. The anger, frustration, and exodus going on is not a surprise to anyone with a brain, and I daresay the devs knew this would be the result as well. The question is: why did the go full steam ahead on a course that would indeed send the TORtanic into the iceberg again? Edited December 7, 2016 by Kirtastropohe

[rheia]

Nah you have to put in some recent stuff, not 1.x stuff

 

Like the stacking exploit and now we had a cxp stacking exploit

 

I put in the 1.x history because I felt it was relevant.

 

They did not introduce the new bugs on purpose, but RNG? They had full intent to do it.

 

It just boggles my mind how back when the system was on a drawing board nobody thought to look back a few years and say "Hey, guys. We tried a similar system before, and it wasn't well received. Maybe we need to rethink this."

[Nothing_Shines]

At Bioware Austin, no idea is so bad that we can't make it worse!

 

-Plaque in BWA main office lobby

Edited December 7, 2016 by Nothing_Shines

[Kromme]

"The Tortanic" pt 2....unfortunately refreshments will only be made available thru the Cartel Market...Sadly, most if not all, of the white knights never saw part 1 and the same can be said of probably 95% of the new development team. Hence history will repeat itself. Exception being that the ship is now out of lifeboats.

Anyway, as the gaming world turns I have invested far more in both time and money in other mmos and have learned the lessons that this type of entertainment intermittently delivers i.e. SWG, CoH/CoV, Vanguard, to name a few that have hit the proverbial iceberg. Sadly I think EA and it's subsidiaries only understand the profit margin and will not nearly and as passionately care about pulling the plug as we here defend our own points of view, albeit positive or negative in regards to the game we currently enjoy patronizing.

So +1 for the reminder to the powers that be; "those whom fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it..."

-peace-

[Shipwright]

The intense dislike of how it worked at launch is something I remember well.

 

That they are returning to essentially this system is frightening; I want the game to stick around and I simply cannot imagine endgame players staying around for this.

 

I got out of endgame and pvp a while ago, and the system will not truly hinder me. I'll be content to buy 228 gear from the GTN most likely.

 

But the system is dreadful; I have 1 character at level 70 ( many others are close), and seeing the system in action is not edifying. For me, the system basically does not exist. The GCX gains are so minimal that I think of earning credits and disregard GCX.

 

In principle the system irks me, but as i can still have fun I will stick around. I am not certain how many others will feel as I do.

 

Thursday they are having a live stream; what are the chances they will announce some remedy for this fiasco? Small perhaps. But this has created such ill will that I sincerely hope something good is done about this.

[Soljin]

More importantly what were the results of those mistakes in v1.x era:

 

They held a guild summit to appease the major guild leaders (our guild leader went as we had more than 300 people in the guild at the time), the acted like all was well and they knew how to fix it and didn't listen to ANY feedback or only heard the portions they wanted to hear.

 

As a result, of not listening following that we had:

 

Almost a 75% drop in subscriptions an an exodus happening so fast, even the MMO press entitled it the TORtanic.

And then we had:

 

F2P introduced in a record pace after a game's launch that at least enabled it to survive.

 

So far, we have the CxP/RNG system, an massive uproar and tons of posts about unsubbing, an article on MassivelyOP showing the very selective hearing of the BioWare team.

 

So it follows we will now have:

A livestream addressing the concerns of the community on the CxP/RNG system. Unless they specifically say they are getting rid of it, going back to the 4.0 era, gear on the fleets, WZ commendations and crystals. (Which let's be honest, we know they are not going to because they just plain don't listen and feel it is perfectly acceptable to have a business model where upsetting your customer is good business).

 

Which will lead to - a continued rapid decline in the number of paying subs.

 

Which is then followed by.... ooops. No F2P to save you this time. Even worse, with the CxP system you basically told all the F2P and Preferred players to go away.

 

Not only have they not learned. They are going to repeat the exact same mistakes and get the exact same results. The question this time though is, could they survive losing 75% of the remaining player base?

 

Yeah this pretty much sums up my thoughts....I think BioWare needs to be very careful what they say in this stream and I think they need to stop designing this game for BioWare and EA and start designing it for their players.....

 

Because right now they are not building this game for the people playing it......

[Jamtas]

This time, since they can't add FTP to game again what you will see is Preferred being added to GC to stave off the loss of subs and loss of preferred from end game.

This way, those that are unsubbing might still stick around a bit longer in case something changes, and still buy stuff off GTN in the meantime.

 

That will fix issue # 1 I had with GC- exclusion of preferred players

 

Then it will be issue 2: Either GC remaining exclusive way to gear and fixing the RNG elements - or - Let GC be a supplement to OPs gearing.

 

Then BW will have a good GC system - though it all comes at a net loss of subs due to their refusal to adjust based on feedback before rolling this out.

[Wayshuba]

Thursday they are having a live stream; what are the chances they will announce some remedy for this fiasco? Small perhaps. But this has created such ill will that I sincerely hope something good is done about this.

 

If Ben says tomorrow what he said on the MassivelyOP article, you can expect the exodus to accelerate. What he THOUGHT the problems were among players showed just how out of touch they are on this issue. If he adds insult to injury by saying we are going to add a vendor to fleet for you to buy the gear AFTER YOU HAVE PAINFULLY PUT YOURSELF THROUGH THE MISERY OF 200 LEVELS, he can go back to his desk and watch as the unsubbing keeps happening. Or, if it follows the pattern of the guild summit, the unsubbing starts to accelerate.

 

Honestly, anything less than they are going back to the 4.0 gearing system is not going to cut it. If he reads this, I hope he sees this line loud and clear.

 

Because if your goal with the CxP system was to keep long term sub revenue, it is going to have the exact opposite effect as people that have subbed for years continue to cancel their subs. In all honestly, you were told this was going to happen, you had a history in this game known as the TORtanic that it did happen.

 

Why you went forward with this would be a good explanation to hear given you completely ignored your paying customers, the MMO Newsites and some of your most referenced fansites. You blindly thought everyone but you were wrong, and it is turning out everyone BUT you was right.

 

Lastly, if I remember right, the last time this fiasco happened it cost quite a few people their jobs as well. Starting with the two founders of BioWare.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Wayshuba

[VirtualMorrigan]

I think they are already setting the tone with the rollback on Harbinger...

[TUXs]

At Bioware Austin, no idea is so bad that we can't make it worse!

 

-Plaque in BWA main office lobby

God, if that isn't the truth...lol

[curulz]

At Bioware Austin, no idea is so bad that we can't make it worse!

 

-Plaque in BWA main office lobby

 

nice!

[Clarian]

Different game and different team, but it reminds me of Dragon Age Inquisition, they lauded themselves for "listening to feedback" from Dragon Age 2 by bringing back features like...being able to equip stuff on your companions.

 

I mean, there are some mistakes that just should never have been made in the first place. Hard to give too much credit for learning from those.

[Clarian]

Maybe they're going for a sort of palindrome overarching development cadence and their followup will be releasing a boxed, reissue of the physical edition of SWTOR launch version 0.0 in stores.

That actually sounds good to me. I'd buy it if I could get my flamethrower and Ravage back.