Analysing; what went right and what went wrong; how to continue forward.

[Mr_Mrs_Fleetwood]

With such a focus on locking end game behind a sub wall (might I add, existing content that has been available for two years) and putting a grind to gear that extends normal gear acquisition per toon by a magnitude of roughly 25+ times what it does today, it seems more like EA has handed down a mandate to get the subs to a certain level or they will consider putting the team on other things.

 

One thing I really hate in relation to gear, is the crippling F2P restrictions on artifact items (the purple ones, I think they're artifact, right?).

 

Not to mention, this is a VERY small amount of content to call an "expansion" by most MMO comparisons. There is maybe 6-12 hours of new content which, quite frankly, is embarrassing to even term it an expansion. Furthermore, we have the "wait until you here what is coming - in January".

 

As much as I love this game, there's no denying the validity of this statement. It's £8.99 to subscribe for 30 days, of which 29.5 of those days will be spent bored. The one episode lasts roughly what, 40 minutes or so? It's not good value for money, unless you take long break periods, and subscribe only to play through several of the episodes.

 

Finally, as to your comment of new content coming, go back and look at titles EA has shut down in the past. It is not unheard of with them to release content and then 60 days later say it is shutting down. As I said in my previous post, one has only observe there standard operation procedures to know this can be a very realistic scenario.

 

A publisher like EA has far too many titles for me to go through searching for a few of said examples, perhaps if you know any off hand, you could name them so that I could look in to it, this wasn't something I was aware of prior to your comment.

[Setta]

There is so much stuff to cover, that there's no way I'm responding to all of it. So I'll just go over to what I believe are the underlining problems of the game, and why it's performing a lot worse than it should.

 

1a) Character Stagnation. There's a lot to be said here, when you compare WoW to SWtoR. For instance the most basic and most obvious, WoW has introduced new classes. It was released in 2004 (almost 2005), in that time, they've added the Death Knight, Monk, and now a Demon Hunter. SWtoR which came out in 2011, almost 2012, has added 0 classes, with no intentions of adding new classes at all.

 

Why is this important? Well aside from the obvious new shiney that people will flock to to play / try out. It changes the game's meta. PvP sees the biggest difference here as a new class now interacts differently with the rest. It has new synergies with other classes, creating new weaknesses for some or showing the strengths of other classes that may not have shined before as much. PvE also changes. A new class might be a better tank or healer for a certain raid boss. It may bring certain buffs or debuffs to a group, and generally changes how an encounter can be handled.

 

1b) Furthermore the characters we have are all the same. I haven't played WoW since WotLK, and I know that they removed the skill trees that they used to have, similar to what SWtoR did. Even though I think that's a stupid move on behalf of both companies, it helps the newbs, so w/e. However with WoW, you at least had things like Glyphs, which allowed some minor differences between characters. Crafting skills had their own unique bonuses that they provided as well. Here we don't have any of that. We have mods which is about equal to the WoW enchanting skill (as close as I can think of) and we have a poor talent tree, which they have as well. There's nothing else to distinguish 1 JK from the other given the same spec. Even when we got the new Cathar species, the devs were to lazy to actually change any dialogue relating to them. Even as early as the level 3-4 quest on Ord Mantell, where you're asked to retrieve medicine from a Cathar who stole it, the guy talks to you like you're a clueless bathoon, despite being a Cathar yourself. It's pure laziness all around. What's even funnier to me, is that we so far have gotten 2 new playable species, in an IP with hundreds of different ones. While WoW has added 5, in an IP with a lot of species, but no where near as many as SW.

 

2) Bugs. There are a lot of them. Look I understand that there will always be bugs. New patches bring them in, but SWtor is notorious for this. I once joked that this game has more bugs than Genosha, and I no longer think it's a joke. There are so many bugs out there it's not even funny. From people not being able to instance together properly in 16 mans. To doing a HM prevents a SM of the same instance. To all sorts of combat, quest, dressing room bugs and many, many more. The piss poor out dated engine is horrible, and presents all forms of problems, that the devs just can't seem to fix. There are still bugs from release. I've reported so many of them, through out my years of playing, and nothing. Maybe eventually something gets fixed but over all, it's a joke.

 

3) Lack of content. Don't get me wrong. I'm actually one of the few people that like the idea of re-scaling raids to max level. It allows new players, or returning players to experience a raid they would have missed otherwise. It allows me to visit raids I may have nostalgia for because I'd have 0 reasons to go back to under leveled content. Over all I think it's a good idea. However it should not be the bread and butter of your end game for multiple years. There needs to be meaningful end game content, which currently there isn't much off. The game supposedly wanted to focus on the story for it's end game content, ok fair enough. However even that is a complete failure. When you shoehorn everyone into a JK centered story. (I don't care if you think it works for your smuggler, you can be a special little snowflake all you want just know that you're wrong). It becomes increasingly difficult to take this story seriously. Not only that, unlike before where there were at least some minor differences between being a Republic or Empire hero this attempts to make no distinction at all. Worst of all is that our choices, which haven't really mattered much, make no difference at all now what so ever. We're not a champion hero leading a rebellion. We're an idiotic gun who's used by his followers. We're told where to go and what to do, and we go kill something. Regardless of your feelings on the matter you basically follow Lana's orders 90% of the time. Everything about the end game is just poorly written and poorly executed.

 

That said, my personal pet peeves in the game are the crafting system, which I believe has been horrible, (oh so horrible) since release, and even with all the changes I've seen to the crafting system up to this point, it's not really making it all that much better. Also the development team removing content. I am F-N mind boggled by the idea of actually removing content. What the hell? Why?!! Look some of us liked some of the older armor sets, or weapons. Some of us liked the world vendors. Some of us liked coming back to a heroic quest giver to see the cut scenes that were created for those quests, rather than having an auto complete. Why oh why do you people keep removing content? What is the logic behind it?

 

All in all, I think the majority of the development team, and the staff should be fired. I know that if I was in a position to do that, I would in a heart beat. This IP has so much potential, and it's barely scra/ping by (these idiots sensor scra-ping btw, wow just wow..... F-N fail on so many levels), because of idiotic decisions made on a daily basis. I honestly have no idea how some of these people even have a job.

[Setta]

Maybe I should have written what went right earlier, but better late than never I suppose.

 

1) Eternal Championship. Over all I liked this design a lot. It got old after a bit, but I admit, when I was learning the content it did present a challenge at first. However now knowing the fights and over gearing it, it's just not the same. I wish there was a heroic difficulty on this or something. I'd love it if they expanded on this down the road.

 

2) The HK bonus chapter. This was the best chapter in a long time. Different combat, nice level design, funny dialogue. Over all just a very solid chapter. I wish that who ever designed this did the other chapters as well, with as much enthusiasm.

 

3) I said it before, that I did enjoy the raids being scaled up to max level. I also stated that it shouldn't be the bread and butter of their end game pve content, but the idea of raids being replayed for those that may have missed it because they weren't here at a certain point is a good call. I hope they continue to scale these, but perhaps increase the difficulty on some like EV / KP as well. As there are some interesting fight mechanics that are destroyed simply to people over powering the hell out of it.

 

4) Alliance Alerts. Ok, I don't really care for them in general, but I like the idea of new companions. Rather than just reusing companions from other classes. Sure a few of them were cool, like allowing my trooper to have a wookie but over all adding in an Arcona, a Whiphid, Nautolan, etc gives me hope for more diversity among companions.

 

5) Shared datacrons. A simple yet effective move. Hopefully shared codex entries will follow eventually.

[Transcendent]

Exactly as I explained in the paragraph above.

 

*cough* you may have copy pasted / misquoted on this post *cough* I definitely didn't say that :p

 

A small side note, definitely other things make me smile. However while watching countless players running Heroics all the time for the credits, I doubt they figure the return on time is greater by running SoR Prelude solo currently, if forward planning and predicting in advance certain changes in 5.0.

 

I tend to hop from one activity to another in this game, occasionaly I'll focus in on one specific thing for a short amount of time. Also, who doesn't like revisiting Manaan for the ambience?

[Mr_Mrs_Fleetwood]

1a) Character Stagnation. There's a lot to be said here, when you compare WoW to SWtoR. For instance the most basic and most obvious, WoW has introduced new classes. It was released in 2004 (almost 2005), in that time, they've added the Death Knight, Monk, and now a Demon Hunter. SWtoR which came out in 2011, almost 2012, has added 0 classes, with no intentions of adding new classes at all.

 

I'm so glad you brought this up, this is something I wanted to touch on in my OP but I felt I'd already touched on quite enough. This is a major issue, they don't keep the core aspects of the game fresh, leaving it to stagnate effectively turns potential subscribers off who come to the game to see that everything is exactly the same. It's such a shame, but I feel the key issue here is a touch of laziness on the Devs part. Possibly too worried about balancing issues.

 

1b) Furthermore the characters we have are all the same. I haven't played WoW since WotLK, and I know that they removed the skill trees that they used to have, similar to what SWtoR did. Even though I think that's a stupid move on behalf of both companies, it helps the newbs, so w/e. However with WoW, you at least had things like Glyphs, which allowed some minor differences between characters. Crafting skills had their own unique bonuses that they provided as well. Here we don't have any of that. We have mods which is about equal to the WoW enchanting skill (as close as I can think of) and we have a poor talent tree, which they have as well. There's nothing else to distinguish 1 JK from the other given the same spec. Even when we got the new Cathar species, the devs were to lazy to actually change any dialogue relating to them. Even as early as the level 3-4 quest on Ord Mantell, where you're asked to retrieve medicine from a Cathar who stole it, the guy talks to you like you're a clueless bathoon, despite being a Cathar yourself. It's pure laziness all around. What's even funnier to me, is that we so far have gotten 2 new playable species, in an IP with hundreds of different ones. While WoW has added 5, in an IP with a lot of species, but no where near as many as SW.

 

Agreed, I touch on this somewhat in my OP but it's nice to see a fresh perspective. I don't know about these glyphs, since I don't play WoW; but I have heard that WoW does add subtle differences to ensure that each class feels marginally different. As much as I enjoy the different class story between the Sage and the Inquisitor, the mechanics of each class are IDENTICAL aside from different animations for the skills.

 

2) Bugs. There are a lot of them. Look I understand that there will always be bugs. New patches bring them in, but SWtor is notorious for this. I once joked that this game has more bugs than Genosha, and I no longer think it's a joke. There are so many bugs out there it's not even funny. From people not being able to instance together properly in 16 mans. To doing a HM prevents a SM of the same instance. To all sorts of combat, quest, dressing room bugs and many, many more. The piss poor out dated engine is horrible, and presents all forms of problems, that the devs just can't seem to fix. There are still bugs from release. I've reported so many of them, through out my years of playing, and nothing. Maybe eventually something gets fixed but over all, it's a joke.

 

Never encountered a bug in this game once. I am for the most part a casual player who doesn't bother with the multi-player aspect (because I'm provided no incentive to, seeing as it's overlooked so much) so that may be why; but that being said, I had no idea that there was a general consensus amongst the community that the game was so riddled with them.

 

3) Lack of content. Don't get me wrong. I'm actually one of the few people that like the idea of re-scaling raids to max level. It allows new players, or returning players to experience a raid they would have missed otherwise. It allows me to visit raids I may have nostalgia for because I'd have 0 reasons to go back to under leveled content. Over all I think it's a good idea. However it should not be the bread and butter of your end game for multiple years. There needs to be meaningful end game content, which currently there isn't much off. The game supposedly wanted to focus on the story for it's end game content, ok fair enough. However even that is a complete failure. When you shoehorn everyone into a JK centered story. (I don't care if you think it works for your smuggler, you can be a special little snowflake all you want just know that you're wrong). It becomes increasingly difficult to take this story seriously. Not only that, unlike before where there were at least some minor differences between being a Republic or Empire hero this attempts to make no distinction at all. Worst of all is that our choices, which haven't really mattered much, make no difference at all now what so ever. We're not a champion hero leading a rebellion. We're an idiotic gun who's used by his followers. We're told where to go and what to do, and we go kill something. Regardless of your feelings on the matter you basically follow Lana's orders 90% of the time. Everything about the end game is just poorly written and poorly executed.

 

I think a lack of 'fresh' content is a more fitting way of phrasing it. At launch, I personally felt that the game had incredible content for release; however as you say, since it isn't updated or kept relevant, therein lie the problems. The new direction with story doesn't bug me with regards to it being solo. What does bug me is the fact that it's the same regardless of which class you go. How are you ever supposed to immerse yourself in that, in the same way that you did for your first 50 levels? It's not possible. I didn't like that at all about the new updates at all.

 

That said, my personal pet peeves in the game are the crafting system, which I believe has been horrible, (oh so horrible) since release, and even with all the changes I've seen to the crafting system up to this point, it's not really making it all that much better. Also the development team removing content. I am F-N mind boggled by the idea of actually removing content. What the hell? Why?!! Look some of us liked some of the older armor sets, or weapons. Some of us liked the world vendors. Some of us liked coming back to a heroic quest giver to see the cut scenes that were created for those quests, rather than having an auto complete. Why oh why do you people keep removing content? What is the logic behind it?

 

The crafting system in my eyes isn't even a crafting system. It's like a MOBA where you're time-locked and have to twiddle your thumbs until companions complete missions. It's ridiculous, there's no feeling of achievement in it at all. We should be patrolling planets in search of planet specific resources and collecting them in some immersive way, on the watch for the opposite faction's people who may be after them too. Seeing little random deposits of crystals and right clicking them, waiting for 3 seconds and then moving on, doesn't count!

 

All in all, I think the majority of the development team, and the staff should be fired. I know that if I was in a position to do that, I would in a heart beat. This IP has so much potential, and it's barely scra/ping by (these idiots sensor scra-ping btw, wow just wow..... F-N fail on so many levels), because of idiotic decisions made on a daily basis. I honestly have no idea how some of these people even have a job.

 

I giggled.

[Mr_Mrs_Fleetwood]

*cough* you may have copy pasted / misquoted on this post *cough* I definitely didn't say that :p

 

A small side note, definitely other things make me smile. However while watching countless players running Heroics all the time for the credits, I doubt they figure the return on time is greater by running SoR Prelude solo currently, if forward planning and predicting in advance certain changes in 5.0.

 

I tend to hop from one activity to another in this game, occasionaly I'll focus in on one specific thing for a short amount of time. Also, who doesn't like revisiting Manaan for the ambience?

 

I just tend to do the original 50 levels (I take long breaks then come back, I've still not completed the Jedi Knight's main story arc, Imperial Agent, Smuggler or Soldier). So I'm enjoying my run through the Imperial Agent right now for the Dark vs Light event. Beyond that, I don't find much appeal in the game. The first 50 levels are phenominal, 10/10 for me. The rest dips dramatically. :/

[AlrikFassbauer]

Regarding combat animations in SWTOR :

 

So why do people find it so underwhelming? Perhaps subtle animation changes would suffice, perhaps it's down to the lack of large scale warfare that you would expect between the Republic and Empire open for the player to partake in.

 

I agree to that; but this is a long discussion as well. I'm a personal hater of the SWTOR model of "let us look Republic classes dumb and weak (although in fact having power) and let us let Imperial classes look exciting (meanwhile having the exact same power).

I really don't like this model of "let's show the humility of the Jedi through weak animations" like the infamous "throwing pebbles".

 

Yes, I admit it : I am biased.

 

Well, with 5.0, I read that some animations were changed again; I'm curious , in how far ...

 

With such a focus on locking end game behind a sub wall (might I add, existing content that has been available for two years) and putting a grind to gear that extends normal gear acquisition per toon by a magnitude of roughly 25+ times what it does today, it seems more like EA has handed down a mandate to get the subs to a certain level or they will consider putting the team on other things.

 

Too bad so few peopple play DDO; but thjat's, I think, mostlöy due to DDO's dated graphics.

In the field in which DDO imho shine, that is accessibility ( spelling ? ) I mean, I can play as a non-subscriber there and earn my ... equivalence to what is Cartel Coins in SWTOR ... and with the few "Points" I can earn there, I can get another "Adventure Module / Pack"ith which I can earn another Points ... You don't really need to buy that many Points via cards or through other means, really.

Compared to DDO, SWTOR was *very* restricttive, when I started it in late 2012. It was almost like a "culture shock". In DDO, for example, one can use higher-grade items ( like SWTOR "Artifact Quality" ) without any penalty.

 

Regarding diversity of classes and non-combat, DDO is - through being based on Dungeons & Dragoons - so much better than SWTOR. There are traps, for example, which *have* to be disarmed ... And "Hirelings" ( somewhat like Companions in SWTOR) can do that as well. There are dedicated Healers which can also damage Undead hordes with special abilities etc. ...

 

What DDO does *not* have, however, is this : Modern graphics and full speech dialogs & class stories.

In DDO, everything is very much instanced, and even although one can do almost everything in principle solo, it is group-focused, too ( it's an MMO, after all ).

 

DDO and SWTOR are the only MMORPGs I have played so far, and both are imho radically different from one another.

 

But what both - and my guess is : all MMORPGs - have in common is this : They are all basically nothing but Action-RPGs after Blizzard's "Diablo"-Model ( Blizzard basically invented the Action-RPG sub-genre ).

For a long time I have feared that the Action-RPG might become the norm even among offline RPGs, and i think that this time has come now. Or is now. You can very clearly watch this by counting the number of turn-based combat offline RPGs released in the recent 10-15 years.

Action-RPGs have become the norm, because from a programmer's point of view, they are h so much easier to program : Create one-fits-all model for a group of critters / mobs ( let's take the Ginx just as an example ), add various colours & stats to it, ready ! You merely need to have a huge database within the game to store all of those variations.

 

Traditional offline RPGs - especially those with turn-based combat - are so much more cost-intensive. Everything basically needs to be hand-crafted to create an even higher level of immersion than any Action-RPG is able to do.

People told me ages ago that Blizzard's "Diablo" had a great story; having played other offline RPGs, I say that it's story is not immersive and not well written at all.

 

SWTOR is what comes closest to an offline singleplayer RPG in the Star Wars universe right now. I never understood why LucasArts never tried to build more RPGs. Everything was there. They even didn't do any Star Wars Adventure Games. But apparingly, Adventure Games didn't sell. (Source : The article on the cancelled Sam & Max game, as published within the "Sumer of Sam & Max" short series, nowadays seemingly unavailable.)

 

Instead, Bioware had to turn an MMORPG into an "online SP RPG" to get it done - most likely, as I belideve, due to EA's business decision to *never* do anything ofline again, because online is *the* perfect DRM.

 

There's so much between these lines I didn't write down; for example, that "would not sell" became a self-fulfilling prophecy; that the hard steering on money spending has led to easier to program games (which need less moneys to spend), that Action-RPGs are basically extrovert games for extrovert people programmed by extravert people in an extrovert culture ( okay, I'm exaggerating now, but you get what you mean; if you want to play something itrovert, then play an immersive Adventure game, so much full of riddles, for example. Extravert people don't seem to be fond of too many riddles, I fear ).

 

Empty servers aren't a fault of the game. It's the fault of the current generation of MMO players.

 

Could you explain that ? I'm curious now.

Edited November 27, 2016 by AlrikFassbauer

[Mr_Mrs_Fleetwood]

Regarding combat animations in SWTOR :

 

I agree to that; but this is a long discussion as well. I'm a personal hater of the SWTOR model of "let us look Republic classes dumb and weak (although in fact having power) and let us let Imperial classes look exciting (meanwhile having the exact same power).

I really don't like this model of "let's show the humility of the Jedi through weak animations" like the infamous "throwing pebbles".

 

Yes, I admit it : I am biased.

 

Well, with 5.0, I read that some animations were changed again; I'm curious , in how far ...

 

I haven't read anything about 5.0, is there a link on the main page I can follow to get clued up about what's coming?

 

Too bad so few peopple play DDO; but thjat's, I think, mostlöy due to DDO's dated graphics.

In the field in which DDO imho shine, that is accessibility ( spelling ? ) I mean, I can play as a non-subscriber there and earn my ... equivalence to what is Cartel Coins in SWTOR ... and with the few "Points" I can earn there, I can get another "Adventure Module / Pack"ith which I can earn another Points ... You don't really need to buy that many Points via cards or through other means, really.

Compared to DDO, SWTOR was *very* restricttive, when I started it in late 2012. It was almost like a "culture shock". In DDO, for example, one can use higher-grade items ( like SWTOR "Artifact Quality" ) without any penalty.

 

I don't even know what DDO is; is that bad? But yeah, to bring it back to the main point I agree that the restrictions are pathetic. After this length of time, you'd think they might consider releasing ROTHC for free, just to see an influx of people willing to see the new content. That could inspire a handful of subs, and more populated servers (for a while), I highly doubt anybody after this length of time who hasn't played ROTHC, is going to pay to play it now. So I see no reason to leave it as P2P.

 

Regarding diversity of classes and non-combat, DDO is - through being based on Dungeons & Dragoons - so much better than SWTOR. There are traps, for example, which *have* to be disarmed ... And "Hirelings" ( somewhat like Companions in SWTOR) can do that as well. There are dedicated Healers which can also damage Undead hordes with special abilities etc. ...

 

I can't remember who said it, but somebody likened the stagnation in SWTOR to that of WoW, and how WoW released new classes to help freshen up combat and tactics in the PvP arena. I think something like a new class would be fantastic for SWTOR, of course, I can't ever see it happening. I imagine that there'd be a lot of pressure on them to release an entire epic story arc for them, like they did with all the previous classes.

 

But what both - and my guess is : all MMORPGs - have in common is this : They are all basically nothing but Action-RPGs after Blizzard's "Diablo"-Model ( Blizzard basically invented the Action-RPG sub-genre ).

 

I don't think so, I'm not a 'cultured' MMO player, by that I mean I've only played a handful of MMO's, but those I have played; I have played for years. I do think that there are radical differences in some MMO's to others. For example in WoW, the game seems mostly centred around PvP/Raids. SWTOR is centred around story, RuneScape is centred around social skills and games like Second Life were all about in-game crafting systems and economy; hell, League of Legends is basically a three lane, tower MOBA, which is very, very different to what the others are.

 

The differences between MMO's is as stark as the differences between something like say, cheese. You have your cheddars, Applewoods, Brees, Stiltons and so on and so forth. While they're all essentially cheese, the texture, flavour and composition, differ from the subtle, to the not so subtle.

 

Traditional offline RPGs - especially those with turn-based combat - are so much more cost-intensive. Everything basically needs to be hand-crafted to create an even higher level of immersion than any Action-RPG is able to do.

People told me ages ago that Blizzard's "Diablo" had a great story; having played other offline RPGs, I say that it's story is not immersive and not well written at all.

 

This gives me flashbacks to a game (quite old game now) called 'Arcanum, of steamworks and magick obscura'. That was an offline, turn based RPG. Mostly voice acted as well, and boy was the voice acting fantastic. Absolutely phenominal game with an absolutely phenominal story. It was produced by what would now be considered an indie developer named 'Troika'. They went bankrupt or something and closed down, I can't recall what exactly happened. But basically the game wasn't quite as successful as it should have been and well, the publishers had enough.

 

I think in general, heavy RPG's are the problem, not whether it's on or offline. They don't seem to be as successful as other games like say, off the top of my head, DooM, which are if anything, 'light' RPG's more focused on their gun fighting. Destiny is the same, for an online Version I'd say Elder Scrolls is a good example. That's a pretty light RPG environment, when it first came out it was riddled with as many bugs and problems (if not more) than SWTOR. But that's turned a corner of late and the Devs have done a fantastic job of bringing it back, it's gaining in popularity.

[CorellianWannabe]

What went wrong: Bioware's experimental story focused MMO didn't bring in the numbers that WoW has. MMO players wanted a WoW clone, not story, and were shocked to find out SWTOR isn't a WoW clone. Hence MMO players quit en masse.

 

Actually it was a clone, just a poorly-made one. Adding voice acting to 'please kill 10 moisture pirates' doesn't make the actual mission any more interesting than reading text. Since then they have decided that they can't compete with Warcraft (a bit late after hundreds of millions spent) and went with a single-player game with always-online DRM (which is likely the way of the future-can't pirate an MMO-type game very easily).

[AshlaBoga]

Adding new classes to SWTOR would only work if they made them Heroic Classes like Death Knights or Demon Hunters.

 

Otherwise they'd have to change code from the Prologue to freaking KOTFE.

[Mr_Mrs_Fleetwood]

Adding new classes to SWTOR would only work if they made them Heroic Classes like Death Knights or Demon Hunters.

 

Otherwise they'd have to change code from the Prologue to freaking KOTFE.

 

Yeah it's pretty unrealistic.

[Setta]

Again few things to cover so :

 

I don't know about these glyphs, since I don't play WoW

 

Glyphs functioned in two ways back in the day (it's different now). 1) They're similar to what our talent trees are now. Slightly modifying a few moves. Be it lower a cd, slight damage increase, or some other misc aspect. Back then Talent trees actually had choices so when you had a build like 31 / 20, or 30 / 21, or something else like 5 / 31 / 22, glyphs added an extra layer to abilities. Though I suppose now it wouldn't be all that different. The 2nd thing they did was alter an animation. For instance there was a mage crowd control called polymorph. It cc'd a person and turned them into a sheep. When glyphs came out, it allowed for a different animal, like pig for instance. So in this case imagine a Jedi Sage telekinetic throw changed from throwing puny pebbles to large devastating objects. Or if Bioware wanted to do something cool, they could make a holiday themed glyph for telekinetic throw and have snowballs as an animation instead of pebbles. It's not a huge thing but it helped separate you from the average Joe. Weapon modifications are probably the closest thing we have to it, but the animation is so negligible that other than the user no one really notices. This would be a lot more noticeable generally.

 

Never encountered a bug in this game once

 

I find that hard to believe. You haven't even seen a dressing room bug? That's so common right now it's not even funny. Chances are you've seen many, many bugs but just didn't realize they were bugs.

 

I think a lack of 'fresh' content is a more fitting way of phrasing it

 

Ya generally what I was trying to say, but ya that's a good way to phrase it.

 

The crafting system in my eyes isn't even a crafting system

 

Yep it's so atrocious.

 

I really don't like this model of "let's show the humility of the Jedi through weak animations" like the infamous "throwing pebbles".

 

Yes, I admit it : I am biased.

 

 

Lol, funny I was just talking about that as glyphs. With Bioware's changes to allowing people wear any form of armor, use any color crystal, weapon tunnings, dyes, I'm seriously surprised something like WoW's old glyphs haven't made it into the game. I know there are a number of animations I would love to change. It's also why I like Republic classes less than Imps (though I personally do like pubs more as a whole).

 

Compared to DDO, SWTOR was *very* restricttive,

 

I've played about a dozen MMOs. I've subbed to all dozen or so at one time or another. But I've also tried out the free version too just to see what it's like. I can say with out a doubt, SWtoR has the worst F2P model I've ever seen. It's not even a contest.

 

Adding new classes to SWTOR would only work if they made them Heroic Classes like Death Knights or Demon Hunters.

 

Otherwise they'd have to change code from the Prologue to freaking KOTFE.

 

I really don't see what's wrong with that. No one was necessarily asking for new classes at level 1, with 3 full story chapters. They had a chance to start a new class at Makeb, and KotFE. Those new classes could of had a personal story along with the over all story arc to separate them apart from the original classes, and let us the player get to know said class a bit better. A mercenary type character from Makeb who could of choosen to either join the Republic or Empire, similar to WoW Pandas.

 

A Zakuul Knight could of also worked. The first few chapters would of had to be different than that of the out lander, but honestly that shouldn't be a big deal. A stupid easy premise could have been that Arcann killed Valkorian and the outlander. You are a Zakuul Knight who is also Valkorion's illegitimate child.

 

All the playable races are humanoid anyways so you having some alien features shouldn't be a big deal, you got it from your mother's side. They could even limit the number of playable races if they really wanted too, I mean hell they removed the customization feature from Kofte companions. I wouldn't care if they put in a few restrictions for a new class, at least we'd have something new. Anyways I digress back on point....

 

After his death, Valkorian comes to find you. You begin to lead a resistance group, and come into contact with Senya, Lana and the gang. You escape a failed coup and land in the endless swamp and find the grave digger. Boom game picks up more or less where it is, with some minor alterations at the start and we have a new class. In fact come to think about it, you wouldn't even have to be a Zakuul Knight. You could be a mystic or some other force user (not to be confused with Voss Mystics) on the other side of the galaxy, since Valkorian obviously got around. Honestly there were so many ways this could of been spun that, it's just pure laziness that they didn't do any of it.

 

The other thing they could have done is add an extra advanced class to each class. Granted the later would take considerably more work as that's 8 extra classes that would need to be created with 3 talent trees of their own so a huge undertaking. Though still a viable option if the devs are to dumb to come up with a way to introduce a new class into the story itself. The lack of any attempt to try and spice up the game is the reason why this game is barely holding on for dear life despite the IP being as popular as it is.

[Dashtardly]

i think part of the problem with swtor as far as story goes, is that even those who play primarily for the story or characters are bound to be left disappointed at the end.

 

After corellia separate class stories are dropped and you just have a single faction story, regardles of class, until you reach kotfe. From there even separate faction stories are abandoned and one outlander is no different from another, whether jedi knight, smuggler, imperial agent, or sith inquisitor. Instead of being part of a galactic war against either the sith empire or republic, the two enemies are holding hands, singing kumbaya, and battling zakuul. The setup for kotfe is odd and no longer feels like star wars. Companion characters that fans came to love or hate during their class stories, have also been abandoned to make way for the lana and theron show.

.

 

^ this.

[Rolodome]

I don't pretend to be well-researched in SWTOR's history, but in my mind, the primary problems (as they come to mind at the moment) are:

 

- The model says it's F2P, but acts more like a sub game... really not friendly or welcoming unless you pay

 

- Too much of the content fails to emphasize grouping, if not actively discouraging it or disallowing it. Mob credit is still antiquated, grouping in general is an organizational hassle unless you're using a tool like group finder. This is a problem because without grouping, people lack that social pressure to keep logging in and it's the same reason having strong guild systems is so important.

 

- The very game feels dated. This is something that's hard to put into words, but I felt it as far back as when I tried the game in beta. I believe it has something to do with the way the character models move and the square-ish design of the UI. I know at least one person who was turned off by SWTOR based on its graphics alone. Granted, this is a guy who has strong feelings about not playing cartoons and invests all kinds of money into overclocking and performance upgrades. One could argue that WoW would have this same problem, but I tried WoW for about a month, years ago, and it just felt more real and responsive. SWTOR has some cool animations, but it's marred by the clunky feel behind everything.

 

- It's hard to be excited for the future. In part due to how stuff is marketed. I don't know if this was always the case, but 5.0 has been a fiasco to me. Information strung out like crazy, while dataminers release more feature details than BW ever does, even days before launch. Add to that... patching and bugs are such a mess that after enough time around, you start dreading what's going to break next time they patch the game. Oh and if a patch does break something... unless it's really game-breaking, you can expect to wait up to a month for the next patch to fix it.

[Tsillah]

The core issue I see all over SWTOR is that there is no followthrough.

Sure we have class stories, but they were abandoned for ultimately a single story line and thereby becoming just like every other MMO.

Sure we have raids (ops), but they were abandoned and we haven't seen anything new there in 2 years.

Sure we have lots of dungeons (FPs), but it's been a while and there's no reason for playing them more than once or twice.

Sure we have PvP, but other than a handful of warzones, nothing has been done since the start of the game to really deepen the PvP experience.

Sure, we did get GSF but with only a couple of maps and a clunky UI and imbalanced ships...none of which have been addressed for a long time.

Sure, we have player housing (Strongholds), but it's been a year and a half since we got a new one there and hook placement and decoration distribution haven't been addressed either.

Sure, we have guild options like ships and conquest, but when did we get any updates on that since their release? I guess never. Still the same old stuff

 

There's more but I think you get the picture. BWA are incapable of making something that is meaningful over time because they just drop things in the game and abandon them and though there is a variety of stuff that can dazzle new players, the game does nothing to keep people playing over time.

 

This also means that older players are generally not interested in helping out newer players and it means that a lot of older players have also left. There is a lack of depth in the game and in the player base because of it and for me, that's the main reason why retention is a problem. I personally believe there are resource issues, engine issues and such behind that but I also think they lack the intelligence or expertise to deal with long term projects.

 

BWA has made a game that has lasted 5 years so far, but most of the players haven't. So it's a rather one-sided affair. SWTOR is like that really hot girl or guy that just can't hold on to their partners because they lack depth of character. Just cause it's SW doesn't mean everybody will stay...

[Rolodome]

The core issue I see all over SWTOR is that there is no followthrough.

Sure we have class stories, but they were abandoned for ultimately a single story line and thereby becoming just like every other MMO.

Sure we have raids (ops), but they were abandoned and we haven't seen anything new there in 2 years.

Sure we have lots of dungeons (FPs), but it's been a while and there's no reason for playing them more than once or twice.

Sure we have PvP, but other than a handful of warzones, nothing has been done since the start of the game to really deepen the PvP experience.

Sure, we did get GSF but with only a couple of maps and a clunky UI and imbalanced ships...none of which have been addressed for a long time.

Sure, we have player housing (Strongholds), but it's been a year and a half since we got a new one there and hook placement and decoration distribution haven't been addressed either.

Sure, we have guild options like ships and conquest, but when did we get any updates on that since their release? I guess never. Still the same old stuff

 

There's more but I think you get the picture. BWA are incapable of making something that is meaningful over time because they just drop things in the game and abandon them and though there is a variety of stuff that can dazzle new players, the game does nothing to keep people playing over time.

 

This also means that older players are generally not interested in helping out newer players and it means that a lot of older players have also left. There is a lack of depth in the game and in the player base because of it and for me, that's the main reason why retention is a problem. I personally believe there are resource issues, engine issues and such behind that but I also think they lack the intelligence or expertise to deal with long term projects.

 

BWA has made a game that has lasted 5 years so far, but most of the players haven't. So it's a rather one-sided affair. SWTOR is like that really hot girl or guy that just can't hold on to their partners because they lack depth of character. Just cause it's SW doesn't mean everybody will stay...

I agree with this point. ^

 

What do they spend their time on when people want new content? Eternal Championship and Star Fortresses in 4.0 era (two new types of content, no follow through). Now we're getting Uprisings and DvL battle in 5.0... if the pattern continues, there will be no follow through on those either.

 

The game designer in me is all for rocking the boat a little bit and trying to innovate, but at a certain point, you can't help feeling they're throwing **** at the wall and hoping it sticks. If you innovate nonstop and abandon previous content types with every new expansion cycle, you just create a bloated game with 15 different fanbases and no support for any of them. Take GSF, for example... I don't know how many still play it and like it, but from what I hear, there are some. And GSF gets so little support that if GSF was the game, it would be considered maintenance mode, no question about it.

 

The playerbase is splintered across numerous different types of content and features, and the list only continues to grow. Instead of picking a few and/or trying to merge the mess together, they continue to add more new types of content to the list that they will never be able to regularly update.

[Deaconik]

Just to comment on the "developers don't have any idea what's going on" and "combat animations".

 

They are removing flamethrower, death from above and master strike(blade dance/ravage). The most iconic fighting abilities. They have no idea how much people love it, because when Eric states "oh, you still has the FT in your heroic moment!" that's just pure insult.

 

They are all the time just removing. Why not give a player a choice that would matter? How about a switch there to use instant/cast time FT? (instant by default) So whenever I play my pyro I can use the casting one as I play it only for fun and I don't care about DPS? And others? And what they did to the death from above is just... NO! Some random bag full of random missiles? Really? I know some people play tanks, but this is probably NOT what they meant...

 

C'mon, these designers/decision makers have no idea what people love about this game.

[CorellianWannabe]

I don't pretend to be well-researched in SWTOR's history, but in my mind, the primary problems (as they come to mind at the moment) are:

 

- Too much of the content fails to emphasize grouping, if not actively discouraging it or disallowing it. Mob credit is still antiquated, grouping in general is an organizational hassle unless you're using a tool like group finder. This is a problem because without grouping, people lack that social pressure to keep logging in and it's the same reason having strong guild systems is so important.

 

So peer pressure to keep playing a game a player might rather not play is a good thing... why?

 

Let's add guild drama to a player's experience-that will make everything better!

[Storm-Cutter]

Good effort OP, 10/10 with links to sources.

 

But if you're a regular here on the forums, you know that the dev team isn't interested in what players want, desire, need or request.

 

If they won't answer questions on some pretty important stuff, then you can only expect silence, no matter how

good your arguments are.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Storm-Cutter

[Setta]

Just to comment on the "developers don't have any idea what's going on" and "combat animations".

 

They are removing flamethrower, death from above and master strike(blade dance/ravage). The most iconic fighting abilities. They have no idea how much people love it, because when Eric states "oh, you still has the FT in your heroic moment!" that's just pure insult.

 

They are all the time just removing. Why not give a player a choice that would matter? How about a switch there to use instant/cast time FT? (instant by default) So whenever I play my pyro I can use the casting one as I play it only for fun and I don't care about DPS? And others? And what they did to the death from above is just... NO! Some random bag full of random missiles? Really? I know some people play tanks, but this is probably NOT what they meant...

 

C'mon, these designers/decision makers have no idea what people love about this game.

 

Thing is they've been removing content from the game with every expansion. People generally ***** and yell at them about this stuff, but they never listen. Somehow they think they know what's "fun" better than the players. I'm not saying that this will be the expansion to end it all, but I'd lie if I said I haven't noticed that there are less and less players with each coming expansion. This doesn't count the 1-3 month influx at the start (or during a new movie release), but generally after that dies down the numbers drop down to lower than they were before.

[Rolodome]

So peer pressure to keep playing a game a player might rather not play is a good thing... why?

 

Let's add guild drama to a player's experience-that will make everything better!

Nothing to do with drama. There was a time when I played an MMO for a while because that's what my MMO buddies wanted to go play. I was a lot less picky back then, too, but it is a factor to consider. It's nothing to do with guild members forcing each other to keep playing and everything to do with the communities you're a part of, the friendships you make, etc.

[Mr_Mrs_Fleetwood]

Thank you everbody for the coherrent and well formulated replies, I will endeavour to respond some time tomorrow, I have read everything. Tonight however, I will leave it just with this:

 

BWA has made a game that has lasted 5 years so far, but most of the players haven't. So it's a rather one-sided affair. SWTOR is like that really hot girl or guy that just can't hold on to their partners because they lack depth of character. Just cause it's SW doesn't mean everybody will stay...

 

The analogy is so perfect. Pretty much summarises the game's essence. I always find myself coming back and getting hooked for say maybe 3 months at a time, then leaving for 8 months; and yet I really do enjoy the game.

 

Good effort OP, 10/10 with links to sources.

 

But if you're a regular here on the forums, you know that the dev team isn't interested in what players want, desire, need or request.

 

If they won't answer questions on some pretty important stuff, then you can only expect silence, no matter how

good your arguments are.

 

Thank you very much for the kind words, it means a lot. I'm not a regular here on the forums, I tend really to keep off forums, there's so much negativity to drown out any semblence of positivity; though with SWTOR it may be justified. I do remember reading a little while back about one of the Devs pretty much admitting that because they get so much criticism, they would stop communicating with the community. That seemed pretty ridiculous at the time, but I guess they really meant it.

 

What kind of professional can't take feedback, whether positive or negative; on their own work? I think the Devs sometimes forget that the criticism comes so heavily because, first and foremost, the original 50 levels, while not completely perfect, where a fantastic platform to go on and do bigger and better things; and well, secondly, it's Star Wars. You take on a big IP, expect big expectations.

 

EDIT: I found the source.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Mr_Mrs_Fleetwood

[XiamaraSimi]

Thing is they've been removing content from the game with every expansion. People generally ***** and yell at them about this stuff, but they never listen. Somehow they think they know what's "fun" better than the players.

 

This has always been Biowares problem.

 

They cant comprehend that people dont love every idea they pull out of their butts, and get downright offended when people let them know they dont love their "Grand Artistic Vision XYZ"

 

How dare we not love XYZ!

Edited November 29, 2016 by XiamaraSimi

[CorellianWannabe]

This has always been Biowares problem.

 

They cant comprehend that people dont love every idea they pull out of their butts, and get downright offended when people let them know they dont love their "Grand Artistic Vision XYZ"

 

How dare we not love XYZ!

 

I thought it was "Grand Artistic Vision RGB".

[Crumpilumpigus]

If this game was B2P, it would have been a smash hit.

 

Subscription games are held to a much higher standard.