There seems to be a lot of hate with the new update, which I haven't played yet.

I didn't really understand any of this, did I miss an obvious Star Wars themed joke? (sad face).

(I did read your entire post.) It's always sad to see a player leaving the game, while many believe it makes no difference to lose one, undoubtedly what you're saying is what several others are feeling; others who will leave in silence. While the second paragraph which sets out your accomplishments was cringe worthy and just sounded like an ego stroke (completely pointless that will likely bring you more flak than the sentiment of the rest of the post), I am genuinely sorry to see you go. Take care with whatever you decide to do next, have fun in WoW, and hopefully at some point in the future the devs do a better job of retaining their players than they are doing now.

I kind of agree with you, but if BioWare think outside of the box, they could quite easily do a Valkorian type shake up. You could have had children of your own who are born into the Eternal Empire, at a time when it's collapsing due to the combined resources of a renewed Empire and Republic. Then you could start with something similar to the original 50 levels when the game launched. Trying to save your Empire and make your daddy/mummy proud! How it would work on a technical scale will leave a lot to be discussed, as nobody is going to want to piss away five years worth of work on their toon. So perhaps a level carry over/gear carry over or whatever? I'm not sure. I mean, the point I'm trying to make is that there actually are many viable options where they could go with this and still keep it really interesting. I'm just doubtful they have the intelligence, motivation or perhaps even funding to do such a thing.

Ahhh that makes sense, I've heard of that, I guess I just wasn't aware of what the abbreviation meant! Thanks for clearing that up. Aha, I'm impressed, somebody else who has played a Troika game! I do believe a couple of devs on Troika went over to Obsidian yeah, which is probably why I enjoy KOTOR 2 so much. I think that game is pretty underrated, despite it not being completed. I've heard of Drakensang, but never played it. I always thought that was more of an Eastern title aimed at the Asian markets that never really took off in Europe or the west.

It seems that 5.0 has received a mixed reception. To put it nicely.

5.0 update went live not too long ago, just finishing up the Makeb storyline on my Sith Warrior and low and behold, the quests are broken. Fantastic, first bug I ever encountered, right as the entire community is joking about what the Devs will break next! Ha, I should laugh really. Defend the generator from 12 deepdwellers. Well I killed 12 deep dwellers, and it hasn't moved on. It's still stuck at that quest step, no matter how many I kill. They just keep respawning. Well done guys!

I think that eventually they have to deviate from the story, and implement/strengthen the core multiplayer features. Most people play MMO's because well, let's face it, two reasons. We're all vain. We enjoy achieving awesome things on our characters and showing them off to our peers. Secondly, we like interacting with people of a similar interest to us - this game. That's why MMO's are here. Whoever said it previously was right, this is a single-player game being shoe-horned into an MMO genre, and it feels so out of place.

I think BioWare could have done this, could have nailed it, but overall their inability to process the communities feedback (however negative) has been their major downfall. They act like children being shouted at by their parents, and then refuse to talk at all. The end result is that they push out content that is slowly killing the game. Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt that with each new release, more players flock back, but more players also leave, and nobody stays around long enough for it to be a sustainable project. Very sad indeed.

Thank you everbody for the coherrent and well formulated replies, I will endeavour to respond some time tomorrow, I have read everything. Tonight however, I will leave it just with this: The analogy is so perfect. Pretty much summarises the game's essence. I always find myself coming back and getting hooked for say maybe 3 months at a time, then leaving for 8 months; and yet I really do enjoy the game. Thank you very much for the kind words, it means a lot. I'm not a regular here on the forums, I tend really to keep off forums, there's so much negativity to drown out any semblence of positivity; though with SWTOR it may be justified. I do remember reading a little while back about one of the Devs pretty much admitting that because they get so much criticism, they would stop communicating with the community. That seemed pretty ridiculous at the time, but I guess they really meant it. What kind of professional can't take feedback, whether positive or negative; on their own work? I think the Devs sometimes forget that the criticism comes so heavily because, first and foremost, the original 50 levels, while not completely perfect, where a fantastic platform to go on and do bigger and better things; and well, secondly, it's Star Wars. You take on a big IP, expect big expectations. EDIT: I found the source.

Yeah it's pretty unrealistic.

I haven't read anything about 5.0, is there a link on the main page I can follow to get clued up about what's coming? I don't even know what DDO is; is that bad? But yeah, to bring it back to the main point I agree that the restrictions are pathetic. After this length of time, you'd think they might consider releasing ROTHC for free, just to see an influx of people willing to see the new content. That could inspire a handful of subs, and more populated servers (for a while), I highly doubt anybody after this length of time who hasn't played ROTHC, is going to pay to play it now. So I see no reason to leave it as P2P. I can't remember who said it, but somebody likened the stagnation in SWTOR to that of WoW, and how WoW released new classes to help freshen up combat and tactics in the PvP arena. I think something like a new class would be fantastic for SWTOR, of course, I can't ever see it happening. I imagine that there'd be a lot of pressure on them to release an entire epic story arc for them, like they did with all the previous classes. I don't think so, I'm not a 'cultured' MMO player, by that I mean I've only played a handful of MMO's, but those I have played; I have played for years. I do think that there are radical differences in some MMO's to others. For example in WoW, the game seems mostly centred around PvP/Raids. SWTOR is centred around story, RuneScape is centred around social skills and games like Second Life were all about in-game crafting systems and economy; hell, League of Legends is basically a three lane, tower MOBA, which is very, very different to what the others are. The differences between MMO's is as stark as the differences between something like say, cheese. You have your cheddars, Applewoods, Brees, Stiltons and so on and so forth. While they're all essentially cheese, the texture, flavour and composition, differ from the subtle, to the not so subtle. This gives me flashbacks to a game (quite old game now) called 'Arcanum, of steamworks and magick obscura'. That was an offline, turn based RPG. Mostly voice acted as well, and boy was the voice acting fantastic. Absolutely phenominal game with an absolutely phenominal story. It was produced by what would now be considered an indie developer named 'Troika'. They went bankrupt or something and closed down, I can't recall what exactly happened. But basically the game wasn't quite as successful as it should have been and well, the publishers had enough. I think in general, heavy RPG's are the problem, not whether it's on or offline. They don't seem to be as successful as other games like say, off the top of my head, DooM, which are if anything, 'light' RPG's more focused on their gun fighting. Destiny is the same, for an online Version I'd say Elder Scrolls is a good example. That's a pretty light RPG environment, when it first came out it was riddled with as many bugs and problems (if not more) than SWTOR. But that's turned a corner of late and the Devs have done a fantastic job of bringing it back, it's gaining in popularity.

I just tend to do the original 50 levels (I take long breaks then come back, I've still not completed the Jedi Knight's main story arc, Imperial Agent, Smuggler or Soldier). So I'm enjoying my run through the Imperial Agent right now for the Dark vs Light event. Beyond that, I don't find much appeal in the game. The first 50 levels are phenominal, 10/10 for me. The rest dips dramatically. :/

I'm so glad you brought this up, this is something I wanted to touch on in my OP but I felt I'd already touched on quite enough. This is a major issue, they don't keep the core aspects of the game fresh, leaving it to stagnate effectively turns potential subscribers off who come to the game to see that everything is exactly the same. It's such a shame, but I feel the key issue here is a touch of laziness on the Devs part. Possibly too worried about balancing issues. Agreed, I touch on this somewhat in my OP but it's nice to see a fresh perspective. I don't know about these glyphs, since I don't play WoW; but I have heard that WoW does add subtle differences to ensure that each class feels marginally different. As much as I enjoy the different class story between the Sage and the Inquisitor, the mechanics of each class are IDENTICAL aside from different animations for the skills. Never encountered a bug in this game once. I am for the most part a casual player who doesn't bother with the multi-player aspect (because I'm provided no incentive to, seeing as it's overlooked so much) so that may be why; but that being said, I had no idea that there was a general consensus amongst the community that the game was so riddled with them. I think a lack of 'fresh' content is a more fitting way of phrasing it. At launch, I personally felt that the game had incredible content for release; however as you say, since it isn't updated or kept relevant, therein lie the problems. The new direction with story doesn't bug me with regards to it being solo. What does bug me is the fact that it's the same regardless of which class you go. How are you ever supposed to immerse yourself in that, in the same way that you did for your first 50 levels? It's not possible. I didn't like that at all about the new updates at all. The crafting system in my eyes isn't even a crafting system. It's like a MOBA where you're time-locked and have to twiddle your thumbs until companions complete missions. It's ridiculous, there's no feeling of achievement in it at all. We should be patrolling planets in search of planet specific resources and collecting them in some immersive way, on the watch for the opposite faction's people who may be after them too. Seeing little random deposits of crystals and right clicking them, waiting for 3 seconds and then moving on, doesn't count! I giggled.

One thing I really hate in relation to gear, is the crippling F2P restrictions on artifact items (the purple ones, I think they're artifact, right?). As much as I love this game, there's no denying the validity of this statement. It's £8.99 to subscribe for 30 days, of which 29.5 of those days will be spent bored. The one episode lasts roughly what, 40 minutes or so? It's not good value for money, unless you take long break periods, and subscribe only to play through several of the episodes. A publisher like EA has far too many titles for me to go through searching for a few of said examples, perhaps if you know any off hand, you could name them so that I could look in to it, this wasn't something I was aware of prior to your comment.

Interesting theory.

With regards to EA, you're absolutely right. They have an awful reputation, rivalled only by Activision, for caring about money more than quality. Of course if the crunch came they would abandon this game, but with the updates coming in now I have to disagree with your assertion that the end is nigh. I do feel as though things are stagnating, despite the updates; but I also feel that if things were that bad, EA wouldn't sanction any more work on the new storyline. How would you propose that the game recovers from it's stutter, five years ago?

No, posts which offer absolutely no purpose because there is zero thought pattern in them other than "STOP THREAD DEVS DONT LISTEN" will receive the appropriate response, which is exactly what your post was. If you want to disagree with something I've said, offer some other suggestion or just discuss in general, I am more than happy and willing to do so. I enjoy people challenging my ideas, I don't enjoy mindless people on the interweb who throw negativity about because they're disillusioned. If you don't enjoy what you see on the forum, then perhaps you should change to a different forum. Exactly as I explained in the paragraph above. Please do read it, and to accuse me of being defensive, and then add me to an ignore feature, is rather hipocrytical, don't you think? Enjoy revelling in your own one dimensional thought pattern, unable to accept another's opinion, I'm sure there's a psychological condition that explains when somebody laments another person, for things that they do themselves. I'm quite open for somebody to read what I've said, and tell me that I'm wrong, and where they think the game needs to head, or that my figures were wrong and that they've found the correct ones, you know what I mean? Something constructive. Something we can actually discuss.

Thank you for understanding, a lot of what I say comes across as abrupt and rude, but that's only because of my use of grammar, I don't want to sound rude or be rude in any way, it's just how I get my thoughts out! I completely understand the negatives, every game has them, and in a lot of cases peoples concerns and disappointments are well founded. I have no problems with anybody pointing holes in what I say or suggest, the only thing (that doesn't really bother me but) that really seems pointless, is people saying that this thread shouldn't exist because nothing will happen. Aha, fantastic, upsetting though; if that's all that makes you smile! I can understand where apathy may creep in, mostly from the response of several individuals on this thread already haha. But I do think it's important for us to remind the devs that we're out here in the vast expanse every now and then. Interesting theory, you know I read something not too long ago, I can't remember who by now and it's a bit late to go finding the source, but it was about how games development teams (in particular under the watchful eye of both EA and Activision) are treated like absolute dogs. They're called in abruptly at all hours because a new bug is found that needs fixing before their next meet up with the publisher; they're forced to work sometimes 70 hour weeks just to hit deadlines because publishers want the product done and out there earning money, rather than focussing on quality. So it's interesting that you mention the jaded aspect. If such working conditions are to be believed, then I imagine most of us would lose our love for the project, and then the end product suffers. It's such a shame.

And therein is the same futility in your own response to my thread, your negative attitude to a member of the community attempting to offer constructive feedback, will accomplish nothing, because my thread will still run unto it's 'conclusion'. Another member of the prestigious 'intellectuals' who have deemed it necessary to paraphrase my opening paragraph. Wonderful. A revelation that I'm sure none of us already knew! Thank you for your eye opening insight. Another eye opener. This was something I most certainly was not aware of, here I thought that Coca-Cola were running the show. This is where I point out then as with the previous person to post something like this, you've highlighted the redundancy of your own post. Sometimes they listen. Hence why I made this thread. I feel like you need to re-read my thread, unfortunately. Let me take the opportunity to paraphrase for you, something you might take the time to read; I offered a personal opinion on what two other games did successfully, and then suggested core feature improvements; not to be mistaken with "special interest groups who want one form of MMO content over another". Ahh the age old nemesis of the Human Race (besides aging), being unable to please everybody. Listen, the forums are for discussion, not shooting down any constructive thread you see because your attention span doesn't warrent you the ability to read it all, retain the information for long enough to form a coherrent response, and then continue with said response. If you'd like to spout negativity, then I suggest you go to some sort of rants forum somewhere on the interweb. Thanks.

No, I understand completely, it's two different cuttle of fish, but the principle of what I was saying, I stick to. I think they do, I mean, we're all just guessing, unless you're able to provide me with a detailed list of people working on the game (again, I'm trying not to sound rude, I don't mean for it to come across as abrupt as it sounds), then everything right now is just speculative conjecture. But if they finished up KOTET and stopped the periodic chapters for a little while, then they could in turn work on each core facet of the game, it would take time, there's no denying it. But since as you say the game is five years old, then a little bit of freshening up would do it justice. EA would have to provide time, I think more than money. The team currently working on the game, I like to think are professional enough and talented enough to do what the community wants, you're right however in assessing that BioWare is just a pet doing what their master, EA, wants. EA have to give BioWare more time; and we all know that EA and Activision are two of the worst publishers around for pushing products out just to monetize the fan base. So time is improbable right now, but we can always hope, and make plenty of noise. I agree with you again, I'm just saying it'd be nice for it to happen; and as slim chance as it is now of ever happening, it'd be even slimmer if the community didn't voice their concerns and/or opinions constructively. Again, you're probably right. I think the ability is there, and I even believe the will is there, at least on BioWare's end, this for me is more an issue with EA.

I have to disagree here. While given the context of the sentiment you're correct, if SWTOR was massively profitable, then it would be in EA's interest to maintain and improve upon it. So change is (perhaps not probable, but) possible. I'm not sure how to take this. I understand where you're coming from, but for me the number of people working on a product while certainly important, are not decisive factors on the quality of the product. Take CD Projekt Red, developers of the highly acclaimed Witcher series. They accomplished so much with those games on what is comparitively speaking, a tiny, tiny development team. Sure, I understand the counter-argument, MMO's are a world apart in terms of mechanics and technical difficulties, balancing difficulties etc, etc. But the principle is the same. The determination and quality of the devs will show through (not suggesting that the devs should be worked like dogs, either!).

Indeed, but I don't feel that this should be something to put the players off. Business models change all the time, games reinvent themselves all the time. WoW's graphical updates, RuneScape's combat system overhaul; SWTOR with enough of a community push, can accomplish things. More dialogue from BioWare would be great; but as long as they're aware of what the players want, then we can always hope, I see no sense in the ultra negative mind-set. It's one thing to say 'what will be will be'; but if this is the case then people should be playing the game (I understand this next part will sound rude, but I assure you, I don't intend for it to be), not hovering on the forums spreading a 'give up' attitude. I like to see the forums as a platform for feedback and suggestion (depending on the sub-forum!). One can only hope!

I'm sure I'm talking about WoW. This is what my step-son told me who is an avid WoW player; I'm not personally sure and so unfortunately can't elaborate further, but I know there was a recent expansion that mixed things up a lot, and this is what he told me, so I'm just a second hand source of information on this topic, I'm afraid.

Haha, there are just too many epic fight scenes to pin-point the best.