Sith Inquisitor and Jedi Consular Changes

[DynoByte]

Never underestimate how hard they will try to nerf Shadows and buff Sorcs ... NEVER!!! Unfortunately, this has almost always been the case. I just wonder if Sorcs just cry the most or if the devs just play Sorcs mostly either way ... It is sad. Shame on you again, this time after giving them our abilities you now are taking them a way from our class. Any time they make the Shadow viable or fun to play it seems very short lived. Shame on you ... Shame.

 

Sorcs are getting "buffed" in the worst way here. As a Sorc main since launch, I don't like the way Sorc is being taken. It is just nonsensical. Also, if you look at PvP, everyone complains about Sorcs being OP. I don't think any Sorc who plays PvP has the right to complain about the state of Sorc, as it is currently amazing. As someone who enjoys playing Sorc in NiM (because it is challenging at times), Sorc dps is in a horrid state, and judging by their statements, it is going to get worse. DPS must be able to do dps, and no amount of utility can make up for that in NiM. Sorcs need to do more damage, full stop. As a result we need to lose utility to balance it out. Don't blame Sorc players for the developers' misunderstanding of the current PvP and PvE climates.

 

I gotta say I'm kinda impressed ... You managed to complain about Sorc not having enough dps in PVE response to my post ... I do agree that combat changes are needed to balance PVP/PVE performance. I do enjoy playing Infiltration Shadow ... I have since beta ... However PVE dps for Infiltration Shadow in NiM Ops is fairly laughable at this point in time, It was actually very viable when 4.0 dropped but then nerfed heavy. I would invite someone to discuss making that viable once again also if possible. I am hoping for the best with 5.0 at this point even with them robing us of phase walk for an already obviously OP class in PVP.

[nepochop]

lol no phase walk....

 

You might as well introduce "Cover" or "Crouch" for Shadow tanks to just sit in place

[SnakeSinger]

Hang on, so what's this about Consular/Shadows not being allowed Telekinetic Throw anymore?! I don't see it listed up there as part of the changes but if that IS the case then that is not fair. At all.

 

Being as it's pretty much the only decent offensive Force ability that I've found use of, you're going to just take that away from us when we're already basically the worst class out of all the available ones because of the previous nerfs you've done.

 

Yeah, BioWare, that's REALLY fair.

 

Good job I don't play PvP or I bet my Shadow would be useless as a character now! Here's hoping PvE will still be managable

Edited November 10, 2016 by SnakeSinger

[La_Frite]

Playing an Assassin in PVP, I used Phase Walk like an anti-focus tool to escape from very dangerous situations. I think we need a new defensive cooldown to compensate for the loss of Phase Walk.

 

For example:

“X”: New Assassin/Shadow ability (with a cooldown):

Surrounds you in a shield that lasts Y seconds, absorbs a high amount of damage, and heals you for Z% of your maximum health when it collapses.

(Can be used while be stunned).

[vadess]

Assassin

After giving every class some additional mobility in Knights of the Fallen Empire, we felt that Assassins were left a bit too mobile.

 

Assassins are melee classes, they're supposed to be mobile! How else can they be effective stealth melee classes otherwise?:confused::confused:

[vadess]

P.S. Why do only deception assassins get a new move, instead of something for the entire class? Especially since you're taking away not one ability, but two, for all assassins?

[JLazarillo]

P.S. Why do only deception assassins get a new move, instead of something for the entire class? Especially since you're taking away not one ability, but two, for all assassins?

Because Deception is losing an additional ability, technically speaking. Since the "Charge" stances are becoming inherent, the Discipline will only have 3 abilities in 5.0, compared to 4 for the other two.

[Daewan]

Imperial Agent

Operative

Operatives will notice that some cunning new tricks have been added to their repertoire with Knights of the Eternal Throne. When used under the right circumstances, these new skills and abilities can certainly give the Operative a tactical advantage and make them a dangerous opponent on the battlefield.

 

(...snip...)

 

Sniper

In Knights of the Eternal Throne, the Sniper will see several changes that reinforce its position as The Old Republic’s quintessential ranged damage dealer. With a slightly longer-range stun, and utilities that improve their chase and retreat capabilities, the Sniper is poised to handle more combat situations than ever before.

 

 

Bounty Hunter

Powertech

Knights of the Fallen Empire left Powertechs in a good position as one of the most well-rounded classes in the game. With Knights of the Eternal Throne, we wanted to push the Powertech fantasy in a way that really made it feel unique and different from the Mercenary.

 

(...snip...)

 

Mercenary

One of the things that has long been requested by players of the Mercenary class is a better way to survive attacks from their enemies. In Knights of the Eternal Throne, we have given Mercenaries several new toys to help keep them alive, while also polishing the class a bit to help differentiate it from the Powertech.

 

Sith Warrior

Juggernaut

For Juggernauts, we really wanted to strengthen their fantasy as Force-empowered, saber-wielding wrecking balls on the field of battle. To that end, in Knights of the Eternal Throne we have tweaked some of their existing abilities and added some new skills and abilities to help them realize the dream.

 

(...snip...)

 

Marauder

We found Marauders to be in a pretty solid place coming out of Knights of the Fallen Empire, so we focused on small changes that would reinforce the master-of-blades fantasy that the class already had going for it. With Ravage no longer being a channeled ability, we have elevated the fluidity with which the Marauder plays.

 

So after reading those (emphasis in bold is mine), it is pretty clear to me on reading this:

 

Sith Inquisitor

Sorcerer

Coming from Knights of the Fallen Empire, we felt the that the Sorcerer was in a really good place and so they aren’t receiving a whole lot of changes this Update. One big change that we made with Fallen Empire was to work on increasing the overall mobility and survivability of the Sorcerer. Additionally, we really wanted to separate the Sorcerer as a ranged class from that of the Assassin.

 

(...snip...)

 

Assassin

After giving every class some additional mobility in Knights of the Fallen Empire, we felt that Assassins were left a bit too mobile. So with Knights of the Eternal Throne we have reduced some of the Assassin’s mobility while simultaneously enhancing their identity as a powerful, stealthy melee class.

 

After reading this, I get the sense that your designers have no idea what archetype you want Inquisitors/Consulars and Assassins/Shadows to follow. You don't understand what 'fantasy' players are going for when they play this class, or if you do not like the archetypes that most people play to when they select this class.

 

I would like to remind you that tanks and healers exist in this game, and a good number of them are Inquisitors/Consulars/Assassins/Shadows. We play this class because of the Emperor, Darth Maul, Kreia, and Yoda. As a Shadow Tank/Assassin Tank, I play it because double-bladed sabers are pretty cool, and so is holding off a boss and watching 'dodge' and 'absorb' fly around on my screen because nothing can hit me. If there is some other fantasy that your designers have in mind, you should specify what your target audience is for these changes because what is listed here does not help me at all, and is actively ruining my power fantasy for my collection of tanks.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Daewan

[junkyardjeff]

i think they feel if they ignore us long enough we will go away. just want a reasonable explanation for this change with phasewalk other than too mobile. i use it for a dcd

[La_Frite]

The actual mechanic of "Renewing Darkness" is clunky:

- not efficient for DPS spec, because mainly we use Force Cloak, regen out-combat and go back in fight.

- force us to quite stealth to maximize the healing.

- force us to remove Guard on mate while stealthing and our mates are unguarded during some seconds.

I would prefer an instant self-healing when we use Force Cloak in order to maintain Guard on our mates or an other self-healing mechanic.

[RodneyMcNeely]

Shadow

After giving every class some additional mobility in Knights of the Fallen Empire, we felt that Shadows were left a bit too mobile. So with Knights of the Eternal Throne we have reduced some of the Shadow’s mobility while simultaneously enhancing their identity as a powerful, stealthy melee class.

• Double Strike: Now granted at level 1 as a Shadow exclusive.
  
• Force Technique: Now a passive buff.
  
• Guard: Now available at level 16. No longer requires Combat Technique.
  
• Combat Technique: Removed from Advanced Class. Now granted as Discipline passive in Kinetic Combat.
  
• Phase Walk: Removed from base class. Now Sage exclusive.
  
• Vaulting Slash: New ability for the Infiltration Discipline. High damage single-target skill on a 15s cooldown that is usable from stealth or within 15 seconds of landing a critical hit.
  

 

Each Advanced Class is receiving a new suite of Legendary Utilities, here are some of the Shadow’s:

• Stalker’s Swiftness: Shadow Stride grants Stalker’s Swiftness, allowing your next Spinning Strike to be used on any target, regardless of remaining health. Stalker’s Swiftness lasts for 10 seconds. Additionally, if the target of your Shadow Stride is defeated within 10 seconds of using Shadow Stride, the cooldown of Shadow Stride is reset.
  
• Restorative Shade: When entering stealth with Force Cloak you generate a stack of Restorative Shade and heal 4% of your maximum health every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. Stacks last for 6 seconds. When stealth is broken, each stack of Restorative Shade heals you for 4% of your health.
  
• Avenging Grip: Deflection grants Avenging Grip, reflecting 50% (or 100% for the Kinetic Combat discipline) of all direct single target tech and Force damage back at the attacker for 12 seconds. Does not absorb incoming damage.
  

This is bad. This is REALLY bad.

 

Edited November 13, 2016 by RodneyMcNeely

[Lillythiel]

Tanks are reactive professions. They don't need to chase after top numbers - they need to react to situations as they arise. As such, Vanguards can afford to save Storm for when it's needed, and choose to either utilize it as gap closer or for bonuses it gives.

The short answer: That's why I've mentioned other classes & skills as well.

 

The more complex answer: A 'role' defines the basic principle of a class, not the implementation of it. If you make an argument that is based on implementation aspects, the principle doesn't matter. But I already explained that and it seems you're either unable or unwilling to address that.

 

To make it more understandable: In regard of a group-based PvE encounter, it's questionable whether an Infiltration Shadow skipping the Force Cloak reset every 90s would result in a lower group DPS total than a vanguard tank skipping the Storm + 2x free Ion Pulses // Explosive Surges option every 15~20s.

 

So do yourself a favor and visit parsely.io to check how the tank disciplines perform using the Leap // Storm method I've mentioned.

 

I DARE you to show me parse that gets etra damage from Blade Blits+Force leap. I dare you. Show it to me. Show me that epic damage Force leap deals.

That's a bit too short-sighted. It's not just about the Force Leap itself, it's about the force points generated by this skill. And that was the initial point disucssing a comparison with Force Cloak being a part of your rotation.

 

In regard of damage, you have to first compare Force Leap with other abilities that produce force points. Here, you'll notice that it's always preferrable to use a Force Leap instead of a Strike. In addition, you have to keep in mind that Force Leap enables the use of Dispatch (with the right utility of course). So you must then check whether the combination of Force Leap + Dispatch results in a higher damage output than the combination of two different skills.

 

Force cloak never was used for defencive reasons in PVE. It was used to: 1)Get extra force regen; 2)Reset Blackout for more force regen; 3)Reset Reckless for more crits and Discharge. Not using it causes MASSIVE DPS loss over the course of the fight, completely destroying your already force-negative rotations, and forcing you to use AA much more than you should. This loss will get even more massive once Reaping strike comes into picture.

We already had this. I asked you to state what your definition of a 'massive DPS loss' is. Do you want me to find the corresponding quote or can you find it on your own?

Edited November 15, 2016 by Lillythiel

[Asaxor]

So, any BioWare developer already unveiled the reasoning behind removing phasewalk for sins? I mean, "we feel sins are too mobile" can't be the real reason, right? For PW is a defensive cooldown first and foremost, not a mobility tool. At least in PvP that is. So, in a time when for ages the bubble princesses were the only ones to have 2 escape tools that can be used while stunned, while others had none, not only are they finally giving others such escape tools (mercs for instance get one in 5.0) - no, they also take it away from sins. Because too much mobility lel. Edited November 16, 2016 by Asaxor

[Xienive]

Although I'll check out how this plays out before making my final decision, I really hate how this looks for Shadows/Sins on paper. Shadow was my first character I leveled and was my main for a long time, along with always remaining my favorite class. These days it's incredibly less fun than it use to be because of all the changes, and it appears it's only going downhill as a class that is becoming both less useful and less fun. Sad to see such a fun class become such a boring, stale one, over the years but if that's your goal then congratulations, you're doing a fantastic job.

[Kirayn]

[*]Phase Walk: Removed from base class. Now Sorcerer exclusive.

 

 

Stop this stupid changes! Sorcerer doesn't need such mobility because its ranged class. They just stand and attacks at distance. Sin needs this mobility to avoid dangers at a close distance!

[Deewe]

• Phase Walk: Removed from base class. Now Sorcerer exclusive.
  

As being mentioned by others it's not a good decision to make it sorc exclusive.

 

Then there' s quite an issue with Shadow Kinetic (tank).

I'm afraid phase walk was the only viable option for some bosses in OPs and some HM FP. Force speed isn't sufficient. As such your are shutting the door for them on theses contents.

 

It should at least have been replaced it with another skill or both increase the duration and lower the CD on force speed.

 

Again you are nerfing PvE for supposedly PvP balance, which you aren't even close to fix regarding you are focusing on the wrong problems.

 

Anyway why being unhappy? My sorc is a god in Huttball and look like I'll keep making my team winning by myself alone for a long time.

Edited November 22, 2016 by Deewe

[Threjyan]

I'm afraid phase walk was the only viable option for some bosses in OPs and some HM FP. Force speed isn't sufficient. As such your are shutting the door for them on theses contents.

 

o.0

 

wait, what?

 

 

sin/shadows tanks are gonna be so op in 5.0 for nim content (who strugles for hm fps/ops in any case, that PW makes the diference bwtween success or failure?), that PW will be so soon a thing of the past, no one will really care. sin/shwdows will be virtually indestructable in the right hands.

[Tsetso]

o.0

 

wait, what?

 

 

sin/shadows tanks are gonna be so op in 5.0 for nim content (who strugles for hm fps/ops in any case, that PW makes the diference bwtween success or failure?), that PW will be so soon a thing of the past, no one will really care. sin/shwdows will be virtually indestructable in the right hands.

 

To an extent yes. However changing movement skills in DCDs or in the case of dps sins in rotational skills shouldn't be the way to balance the class. It's not a big deal for sin tanks since they are bringing back the old cd of force speed but it's still clunky.

[CobaltCannon]

DO NOT TAKE AWAY THRASH WITHOUT REPLACING IT WITH ANOTHER LIGHTSABER ABILLITY!!

 

I am NOT A LEMMING or a SHEEPLE! I do NOT play my characters only one way!

 

I like to hit things with my lightsaber on my Sorcerer Healer when they get close, and sometimes I go up to enemies to hit them with my lightsaber, because it is fun and cool! It is a HUGE part of any Jedi or Sith character! The lightsaber is iconic to these character classes. I am not playing Gandalf The Grey!! I am playing Jedi and Sith, and I want to be able to use a lightsaber. Remember that the core of this game is MMO PvE. DO NOT forget that this is supposed to be a multiplayer RPG. You guys already botched that with Knights Of The Fallen Empire which turned the end game into a single player only game. The only thing we can do with it in multiplayer is that star fortress maze which becomes monotonous fast!

 

You are taking the Star Wars out of these Star Wars character classes. These Jedi and Sith force mastery classes should be masters of the lightsaber as well as the force. That lightsaber and it's use is an Icon that must be an equally important part to these classes as force use. You need to add in more lightsaber abilities. Look my Sorcerer healer has 3 ways to do the exact same thing: Shoot lightning at one target. Why do I need 3 powers to do that exact same thing: One instant shock, One cast lightning strike and one channeled lightning strike. You could chop that down to one instant cast, and one channeled ability then add in another lightsaber ability.

 

You should be giving them another lightsaber power, not taking one away. If you make each class so that there is only one way to play it, requiring power rotations to play it, then the game becomes monotonous, like working the assembly line at the JEEP plant or playing Pac Man and following the pattern.

[CobaltCannon]

Here's a quick suggestion for a new lightsaber power to give these classes.

 

For the Sith, give them an attack like Chancelor Palpatine used against the Jedi. He lunged forward in the air with the force spinning around like a drill bit and whacked at every Jedi in that area with his lightsaber. Look at the possibillity of a close range area attack like that.

 

For Jedi, give them also an area lightsaber attack similar to Yoda's in Attack of the Clones when he went crazy on Count Dooku. The Jedi can flip around spinning like a whirlwind hitting everything in an area with it's lightsaber.

 

Or give these characters their own "master form" strike similar to blade dance, but with a new animation that does high damage.

 

These characters should be masters of the lightsaber as well as the force. If the lightsaber is just going to be a stat stick, then we might as well go play World of Warcraft and play mages, or go play elder scrolls on line and play mages there.

 

Do Not destroy the image of what these characters should be like in order to appease raider and PvP players. You neglect the core of your player base by doing that. The core is MMO RPG.

[Asaxor]

These are fantastic ideas KoboldCannon. I also have an idea. Remember the UNLIMITED POWER force lightning from the film when Palpatine killed Mace Windu? I was a great scene. Now, Sith Sorcerers do have a raidbuff skill with the name Unlimited Power which is great because it always reminds you of the film. However, Jedi healers also need something awesome.

 

Pondering that, I remembered how in the Ilum story-line at the end you fight that one Sith Lord and he stuns you or whatever and then drains your life and when you're almost dead a bunch of Jedi Healers run into the room, heal you up and then drop dead to the ground. The ultimate sacrifice for a benevolent Jedi healer - for the greater good. And it occured to me that this is an ability Jedi Healers need.

 

Think about it, your raid group is fighting that difficult boss in a hardmode operation but both tanks are dead and currently the boss is in the process of one-shotting DPS because he's in enrage. At that point the group's Jedi healer activates ULTIMATE BENEVOLENCE and all dead allies are resurrected and everyone is restored to full HP but the healer himself drops dead to the ground, having made the ultimate sacrifice for the benefit of the group.

 

Then, after the fight, Satele Shan descends from above in the sky on a chariot made of gold and gives the raid group a pint of her own urine which bestows a powerful blessing.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Asaxor

[demotivator]

Jedi Consular

• Phase Walk: Removed from base class. Now Sage exclusive.
  

 

I am seriously puzzled at the point of that exclusive removal (I guess PvP as usual). What use do Sages/Sorcs have of Phase Walk? Maybe I don't see it because my only Sage is a healer so my sole use of that ability is more of a safety net in these fights will lots of knockbacks. On the other hand as a tank this is an awesome ability to close the gap on a boss especially when the mechanics force you away (knockbacks, avoiding AOE, tank swap...). Thanks, I guess?

 

Pissing off a whole discipline, what a great idea when there is already a shortage of tanks.

Edited November 28, 2016 by demotivator

[lcharas]

Taken from the Sage / Sorcerer changes:

 

Mental Defense (Redesign): Reduces all damage taken while stunned by 30%. Additionally, reduces damage taken from area effects by 30%

Shapeless Spirit (Redesign): Reduces all damage taken while stunned by 30%. Additionally, reduces damage taken from area effects by 30%

 

This utility was shared for both advanced classes. What happens to Shadow/Assassin Mental Defense / Shapeless Spirit?

Edited November 28, 2016 by lcharas

[Xienive]

"Shadows are just crazy mobile, they definitely need to make phase walk Sage exclusive." - Nobody

 

"Now that my class has less abilities, it really feels more polished and unique compared to the other advanced class." - Nobody

[Psychopyro]

So seeing this, and the patch notes, I wonder...

 

Did Infiltration/Deception force management just become a pain in the butt again? Seeing how our rotation was dependent on the force regeneration from blackout/force cloak/blackout on resets?