People On The Fence: What Would It Take To Keep You

[Rafkin]

1) Stop making me use a "one time" password on a weekly basis.

 

2) Stop the "reorganizing data" 2hour process every single patch.

[ekwalizer]

Too much damage has been done. I loved this game. I still enjoy playing it but Bioware no longer deserves my money because they are actively killing the aspects of the game that I enjoy.

 

They will never undo what they have planned, thus, I do not believe that I will ever return.

[peter_plankskull]

They will never undo what they have planned, thus, I do not believe that I will ever return.

 

Depends my friend, if we voice our opinion enough, and with enough people voicing the same mindset, they will listen one way or another depending on the issue. I mean if we all complained about lack of cm comment, you know they will be working harder than ever... operations on the other hand...

 

All jesting aside, I do feel like Eric is finally trying to communicate more, so hopefully we can operation or some form of pve group content at this point, and NOT star fortresses 2.0.

[Nempo]

I need to see unobtainable content become available again. I'm talking about recruiting Nico Okarr as a companion, the HK-55 Bonus Chapter, and old cartel packs that don't show up on the CM anymore.

 

The idea of limited-time rewards should be that those players gets it for free(or a reduced cost), and at least give others the option of buying it from the CM rather than making it totally unavailable. There's not much point in special snowflakes if no one plays the game to appreciate them.

 

Keeping these kinds of important story-driven recruiting missions, story-relevant companions, and even a bonus chapter unobtainable just punishes new players and returning players because they weren't in a position to subscribe at a certain time. Especially the completionists who want to experience every bit of the game's content going for 100% completion.

 

Seriously, if this kind of content was made available again, I'd stick around much longer and invest more into the game. But as it stands, I know I can't get certain companions, do certain missions, and obtain certain gear so it just feels...meh.

 

Not picking on you specifically, just that I head seen this posted by several people and the same thought always hits me: you don't play MMO's much do you? If you don't subscribe (for ANY reason) or weren't here from the start, or didn't stick around (IE took a break) than you will miss things and be incapable of getting 100% completion. The game needs money to keep the lights on, thus there will always be things tucked away that are only for the loyal customers. That is the way MMOs have always been.

 

Would you like an example that is actually somewhat extreme? EQ1 is STILL going, the servers are still on and people still play it in enough numbers that they can leave it running, I believe it is just a little over the 'break even' point and they figured they may as well let it stay up as enough people still play it. Most companies would shut it down but they keep it going and even patch it occassionally still. That game is FULL of things you can never get now as the mobs that drop them no longer exist (as expansions were released the world changed, the items those mobs dropped got updated for those who had them but no one new could get them) thus the 'BIS' weapons are no longer obtainable in the game!

Aion has had this same problem routinely. When the game launched there was a title you could only get if you were in the top 5 PvP ranks for both factions. When the game had it's first expansion they made those titles un-obtainable. Now, in Aion titles have stats...and the stats in those titles added PvP specific damage reduction/boosting as well as giving you more time in flight. I no longer play yet my main character over there still has this title that they have been crying about for years. They have good reason to, as those titles conferred 10-20% damage resistance (depending on the title rank) and 5-15% damage boost (again depending on rank) and add in extra flight time and you have quite the massive advantage over others. Most of the people with those titles have stopped playing sure but there are still a few out there.

WoW has more than a few things on the achievement list that only 1 person, 1 group, or 1 guild can ever get on the achievement list and other achievements you can only get during a set period of time before it gets locked forever.

 

Basically, stop treating this game as if it was a single player game, achievements will not all be completable...ever...unless you start at day one of launch on any MMO and never let your subscription lapse. It is the nature of the game style to change over time and previous things to no longer be achievable/get-able.

[Storm-Cutter]

4 or 5 new FPs. Ops scaling to group size, 3-4 PvP 8-player maps, 2-3 new GSF maps. - And the number players to make pops /pugs/ ops happen.

 

And something to keep my guild happy and not playing Grimm Eclipse at every opportunity.

 

That'll keep me for a while longer.

 

When I type my fanfic while waiting for PvP and GSF pops, knowing my friends are doing something else and aware that I've done 95% of the game already, I sometimes wonder where my sub is going and how long I'll remain in this abusive relationship.

 

- just my .02 worth....

[peter_plankskull]

4 or 5 new FPs. Ops scaling to group size, 3-4 PvP 8-player maps, 2-3 new GSF maps. - And the number players to make pops /pugs/ ops happen.

Jesus man... I can understand having a set bar and all, but that's a little high, even in theory. I mean we couldn't even get that during the 2.0 cycle, albeit close, and since then we have been getting skimmed down on content more and more.

[ekwalizer]

Depends my friend, if we voice our opinion enough, and with enough people voicing the same mindset, they will listen one way or another depending on the issue. I mean if we all complained about lack of cm comment, you know they will be working harder than ever... operations on the other hand...

 

A 20% loss in population between May 2015 and January 2016 didn't speak loudly enough?

 

Requests for some PvP love for over a year didn't speak loudly enough?

 

They are using metrics derived during the 12XP event to justify no new group (8p) content. They have decided that it is more cost effective to lose end game raiders and end game PvPers because that means they do not have to invest in developing those things.

 

IB4 someone chimes in with "they said they were working on a raid for 2017":

They said the exact same thing at the end of 2015 about a potential raid in early 2016.

They said with SOR that they would ***never*** go 14 months without a new raid again; we are approaching 23 months as of this moment.

 

I simply no longer have any faith in their desire to keep their word.

Edited October 25, 2016 by ekwalizer

[peter_plankskull]

I simply no longer have any faith in their desire to keep their word.

 

All I have to say is that there working on something better than cross server.

 

 

in 2018.

 

[ekwalizer]

All I have to say is that there working on something better than cross server.

 

 

in 2018.

 

I actually LOL'd. Well played. Well played.

[ChainLighning]

1. Operations not solo, but 8 man, 16 man true operations done the right way

2. Operations not solo, but 8 man, 16 man true operations done the right way

3. Improved Story, I do not find this story very good.

4. No RNG, or RNG with a check, meaning have some sort of safety net to ensure players get what they need. Don't mind a grind but from what we are seeing/hearing with 5.0, not a fan. Seen some really good ideas from people on these forums. Wish they would implement some of those ideas provided they are technically viable.

5. Open, honest, straight forward communication. This is, and has been, SEVERELY lacking.

6. Improved rewards for players who do complete the more difficult content. Doesn't need to be gear, but needs to be something other than an achievement and a title. Mounts, pets, decos, I don't really know, cosmetic gear, something. Some of that is there now, but seems like with the direction of things, this may be lacking.

7. Increase server populations, merges perhaps? Again, not sure on the answer but not sold this new content is going to do it

8. True sub benefits WITHOUT screwing over the F2P/Preferred players. I am not a fan of free to play models for the most part but acknowledge these are folks who have interest in the game. Little concerned the direction SWTOR is headed will alienate them and compound problems we already have. Perhaps I am mistaken

[Galahard]

I only wanted to comment on this line.

 

While i agree with what you've asked for:

 

It took them what 4 years to make the stories for the original game and the planets and all that "The first Story driven MMO" advertisement?

 

To do what your asking they would still be working on "Rise of the Hutt Cartel" and it'd be another three to four years before "Shadow of Revan" would be ready.

 

And while you may or may not be one of those people whom complain constantly about no expansion, can you image the hysterical poison community posting about no new content four four years, because it would have taken them around that long to do what your asking.

 

Sure it would be nice for them to do that, make all class independent stories for each expansion. Let's be realistic, from a business bottom line point of view it wouldn't be cost effective, and would you pay another 59.99 or 69.99 for a swtor expansion with 30 minutes of class story. Perhaps so if they (BW) starved you for new content for four years

 

Good point there, thanks for commenting, here is how I see the math with development could have worked out.

They worked 4 years on 8 stories, each story 3 chapters each, so that adds up to 24 chapters altogether.

Let's take chapters as a arbitrary unit and work with it (let's disregard now that each chapter is different length, we are speaking hypothetical future chapters anyway).

Based on the above, they could churn out 6 chapters a year (I am even discounting that they needed to work on the base game too (I mean the platform/mechanics etc), which they don't have to after launch, but also, they probably just worked conceptually on the stories in the first few years, because there was no platform to implement in yet, so let's presume those two even out, ok?)

If you only want 1 additional chapter in an expansion, that's 8 new chapters, 1 for each class in 1.25 years, pretty much what you would expect the time gap between expansions.

Of course there is the question if people would value those chapters for the classes they don't play?

Well, that would be the perfect reason to make the game more repeatable and keep people stay around and sub longer.

Let's take the original planets, which had around 80% the same content for a faction, and about 20% class content (per character).

If you wanted to experience all class stories, you nearly had to do that 80% four times per faction in order to be able to do the 20%. So that's 400% per faction, 800% for the whole game, of which 640% is repeated and only 160% of which is net new per player.

Compared to that, you have RotHC, which is only two faction stories, so you get only 200% repeat value and no more, and probably RotHC had the same development resource cost as the above model with 8 stories.

With SoR, they tried to come back a little bit to class content, but it's only one mission per class, though that one sorry class mission makes me want to play through those awful repeat SoR prequel flashpoints (all 4 of them!), just to be able to experience unique class content.

Why is it unique? Because at least you have some identity, whereas, if you are the Outlander, you have no identity, or just a vanilla, 'this is what we made for you, like it or not' identity.

Edited October 25, 2016 by Galahard

[TX_Angel]

Depends my friend, if we voice our opinion enough, and with enough people voicing the same mindset, they will listen one way or another depending on the issue. I mean if we all complained about lack of cm comment, you know they will be working harder than ever... operations on the other hand...

 

All jesting aside, I do feel like Eric is finally trying to communicate more, so hopefully we can operation or some form of pve group content at this point, and NOT star fortresses 2.0.

 

No, the game has passed the point of no return, too much time has passed and the dedicated gamer base has moved on. They haven't worked on MMO stuff in two years, they aren't going back now.

[TX_Angel]

A 20% loss in population between May 2015 and January 2016 didn't speak loudly enough?

 

Requests for some PvP love for over a year didn't speak loudly enough?

 

They are using metrics derived during the 12XP event to justify no new group (8p) content. They have decided that it is more cost effective to lose end game raiders and end game PvPers because that means they do not have to invest in developing those things.

 

IB4 someone chimes in with "they said they were working on a raid for 2017":

They said the exact same thing at the end of 2015 about a potential raid in early 2016.

They said with SOR that they would ***never*** go 14 months without a new raid again; we are approaching 23 months as of this moment.

 

I simply no longer have any faith in their desire to keep their word.

 

+1 signed... All the truth is here, anything else is delusional hope with no basis in reality...

[Houzukimaru]

"What if *this aspect* didn't matter? What if we did *this* instead? Would that change your opinion?" all sounds exactly like the questions Musco asked in the focus group Q/A 2 months ago. Making Nightmare mode for old Ops where with top gear you have a challenge on your hands is meh, just new mechanics to work with. Top gear only from crates from doing recycled content? That's a letdown. Their complete lack of interest in PvP was what killed this for me, especially the look Musco gave when I asked about minor incentives for WPvP to try to encourage more user-driven engagements, it turns out it was less of an "Are you kidding me?" and more of a "With these changes coming that I can't tell you about, there's no incentives to offer."

 

What would make me stay is good PvP, still working on accepting that PvE gear is now the PvP gear and all gotten from the same source...

Edited October 25, 2016 by Houzukimaru

[cool-dude]

I need to see unobtainable content become available again. I'm talking about recruiting Nico Okarr as a companion, the HK-55 Bonus Chapter, and old cartel packs that don't show up on the CM anymore.

 

The idea of limited-time rewards should be that those players gets it for free(or a reduced cost), and at least give others the option of buying it from the CM rather than making it totally unavailable. There's not much point in special snowflakes if no one plays the game to appreciate them.

 

Keeping these kinds of important story-driven recruiting missions, story-relevant companions, and even a bonus chapter unobtainable just punishes new players and returning players because they weren't in a position to subscribe at a certain time. Especially the completionists who want to experience every bit of the game's content going for 100% completion.

 

Seriously, if this kind of content was made available again, I'd stick around much longer and invest more into the game. But as it stands, I know I can't get certain companions, do certain missions, and obtain certain gear so it just feels...meh.

 

Interesting point of view. I always saw the rewards you described as rewards that WERENT relevant to the story. Like the Shae Vizla companion. I'd bet cash that they are giving that to us, because she is no longer relevant and will not have a part in kotfe again.

[ParReincarnation]

As I said it before I will stay here forever, cause im a big fan of the Old Republic universe.

 

Anyways, my offer is still actual though... You know, if you gonna leave, just in case... You can give me some stuff

Edited October 25, 2016 by ParReincarnation

[americanaussie]

I'm starting to wonder if people whining about no group content can read or if they just like complaining for no reason. This doesn't apply to pvp but they have said that there will be group content and groups will earn rewards at a faster rate. There will be new ops. The only thing I've not heard is if they'll be new pvp.

[Beachdudeca]

Bioware would need to change its model which will not happen , all players should have access to the upper levels , and though they might be able to gate access to certain content via passes it should otherwise all be available ,

 

plus

 

the entire reward model should be rethought so that the RNG element is removed

 

Since that will not happen , I am out to play another game that is more in sync with what I want , me , playing Guild Wars 2 now , which lacks a sub , and is player friendly

[LyraineAlei]

I'm starting to wonder if people whining about no group content can read or if they just like complaining for no reason. This doesn't apply to pvp but they have said that there will be group content and groups will earn rewards at a faster rate. There will be new ops. The only thing I've not heard is if they'll be new pvp.

 

When I spoke of group content, I mean more specifics than "Wait until Jan 2017!" and Uprisings. Something like, "We're working on Uprisings as a short term pace offering until we finish a new Zakuul-based Operation that should be out at some point int 2017."

[Drenovade]

Not picking on you specifically, just that I head seen this posted by several people and the same thought always hits me: you don't play MMO's much do you? If you don't subscribe (for ANY reason) or weren't here from the start, or didn't stick around (IE took a break) than you will miss things and be incapable of getting 100% completion. The game needs money to keep the lights on, thus there will always be things tucked away that are only for the loyal customers. That is the way MMOs have always been.

 

Would you like an example that is actually somewhat extreme? EQ1 is STILL going, the servers are still on and people still play it in enough numbers that they can leave it running, I believe it is just a little over the 'break even' point and they figured they may as well let it stay up as enough people still play it. Most companies would shut it down but they keep it going and even patch it occassionally still. That game is FULL of things you can never get now as the mobs that drop them no longer exist (as expansions were released the world changed, the items those mobs dropped got updated for those who had them but no one new could get them) thus the 'BIS' weapons are no longer obtainable in the game!

Aion has had this same problem routinely. When the game launched there was a title you could only get if you were in the top 5 PvP ranks for both factions. When the game had it's first expansion they made those titles un-obtainable. Now, in Aion titles have stats...and the stats in those titles added PvP specific damage reduction/boosting as well as giving you more time in flight. I no longer play yet my main character over there still has this title that they have been crying about for years. They have good reason to, as those titles conferred 10-20% damage resistance (depending on the title rank) and 5-15% damage boost (again depending on rank) and add in extra flight time and you have quite the massive advantage over others. Most of the people with those titles have stopped playing sure but there are still a few out there.

WoW has more than a few things on the achievement list that only 1 person, 1 group, or 1 guild can ever get on the achievement list and other achievements you can only get during a set period of time before it gets locked forever.

 

Basically, stop treating this game as if it was a single player game, achievements will not all be completable...ever...unless you start at day one of launch on any MMO and never let your subscription lapse. It is the nature of the game style to change over time and previous things to no longer be achievable/get-able.

 

Oh, I do understand that this is quite common with MMOs. I've been on and off of WoW since 2005, and on and off of swtor since launch in 2011. It kills me that during those breaks I miss things and can no longer obtain the level of completion that the perfectionist inside me so desires. I am simply saying that if this currently inaccessible content became available again, it would bring me back to swtor and I would invest more time and money into the game.

 

What I'm suggesting is nothing that hasn't happened before either. Old content has been brought back before in some MMOs, like tier 3 in WoW, companions, mounts, TCG items, etc. via the black market auction house.

Edited December 24, 2018 by Drenovade

[Drenovade]

Interesting point of view. I always saw the rewards you described as rewards that WERENT relevant to the story. Like the Shae Vizla companion. I'd bet cash that they are giving that to us, because she is no longer relevant and will not have a part in kotfe again.

 

Well, there is a bit of story involved during the recruiting of the companions Nico and likely Shae Vizla. Perhaps not relevant to the main storyline, but relevant nonetheless. There is also things like headcanon, in which case having certain companions, gear, or bonus chapters would be quite important to that player.

Edited December 24, 2018 by Drenovade

[Sarova]

Depends my friend, if we voice our opinion enough, and with enough people voicing the same mindset, they will listen one way or another depending on the issue.

Shareholders returns matter not our opinions, however I sure they're always up for using some good ideas that don't conflict with their profit margin.

 

I returned to the game last year after 2 years away as I heard there had been many quality of life improvements and wanted to try Ilum, Makeb, SoR and Strongholds. I enjoyed all of it - levelled all 8 classes and thought many of the companion interactions and stories were excellent. I was planning on doing all the various specs when KotFE happened. The biggest issue I have with KotFE is the the PROMISE that our companions would return through the story (there are also too many other inconsistency issues to list here). Most of companions never materialised. Despite numerous threads, EA/BW heads are just head-stuck-in-the-sand ignoring us.

At this point the only thing that will keep me playing and subscribing is honest and solid news about whether or not our companions will return and whether there will be a return to class related story, rather than the one story fits all (but doesn't really - Trooper being the best example). I will sub to do KOTET on my main then, if no news, I'm out.

Edited October 26, 2016 by Sarova

[peter_plankskull]

Kind of disheartening that a lot of the regular forum goers no longer have a ounce of faith in Bioware anymore.

[LyraineAlei]

Kind of disheartening that a lot of the regular forum goers no longer have a ounce of faith in Bioware anymore.

 

Sorry. I'm not sure I've ever truly been a BW Forum Defender, but I know that I've turned less positive that what has ben learned will stick (though releasing all of the chapters at once is a good sign, though Uprisings not so much since I was hoping those would be like MAcrobinoc/Seeker droid missions where they scaled in difficulty with larger groups)

[americanaussie]

Kind of disheartening that a lot of the regular forum goers no longer have a ounce of faith in Bioware anymore.

 

The forums of many many games are filled with a few players that complain.