Do we have ability overload?

[TUXs]

I suppose it'd be too much to expect that BW use a scalpel instead of a chain saw, given their general habits concerning mechanical changes.

 

OTOH, the trimming of abilities in 4.0 was pretty gentle.

Yeah, that's my fear...ask for one thing, they do something completely different (see GSF).

[CaptRogue]

Yeah, that's my fear...ask for one thing, they do something completely different (see GSF).

 

Gosh, you're just never happy are you TUXs??

(I kid, I kid! lol)

[LyraineAlei]

This is good IMO....offer the extra abilities as utilities instead. Perhaps their may be more balance issues if they up the amount of points you get, but you could then truly customize your build.

 

Originally when they announced Disciplines as to be a "build your own character" and said that they'd be adding more utilities and utility points instead of the reshuffling of points and whey ou get them, I thought they'd be adding more utility and utility points. Instead they did the same thing as with skill trees and moving things around (the levels when they're rewarded in this case).

[Transcendent]

If you like the idea, what kind of problems do you think this kind of system would present for the game?

 

Balance.

 

I can't see the combat team being able to factor in all of the variables to maintain balance, they struggle enough with what there is already and are far too slow to respond to imbalances in the meta between classes. I don't see how adding upgraded abilities (albeit less abilities overall) would aid them in creating balance.

 

Essentially, that's like reintroducing skill trees and creating hybrid builds, you would have some players using upgraded abilities and other using the "standard model".

 

This type of system works well for, for example Diablo 3, where you gain paragon points to put into offensive / defensive stats, however you're already working with a smaller set of abilities due to it being console friendly (and the combat is more fluid because of it imo).

 

It seems like the combat system in SWTOR, works well for SWTOR. I'm not sure copying or adapting ideas or similarities from other games in the MMO / RPG genre would translate very well with the different classes and disciplines we have. That would be a drastic change, even more so than removing skill trees or adding level sync.

 

Otherwise, I'd really love for ranged dps to gain cover mechanics aside from just using los.

[gabigool]

One thing I have felt since the launch of this game is that there are FAR too many abilities for each player in this game.

 

Now, I would not suggest they should remove abilities for the sake of simplicity for all, since obviously that would likely upset those folks that enjoy the diversity and range of choices/rotations. What I would suggest, however, is that perhaps there should be some kind of option to either upgrade a current ability or get a new one.

 

That change, if implemented, would give players a wider choice IMO....perhaps those that do not prefer more advanced play or PVP would choose a simpler build with upgraded abilities

 

That is not to say it would not have any problems...balance issues come into play. But, one could consider that perhaps this could be a path to offering a different rule set for PVP.

 

At any rate, what do you guys think? Would you be against a "simple mode" that would prune them down to 5 or 6 core abilities? If you like the idea, what kind of problems do you think this kind of system would present for the game?

 

Thanks for your time.

 

You can do this right now. Take everything off your bar except for a few abilities. You will be able to complete nearly every drop of content in the game. Don't see the problem.

[DreadtechSavant]

Not really, Do I use every ability? No but ones I don't use I bet other do. At the end of the day OP if you think there are to many just cut down on the ones there are or you just don't use. It not hard to remove any or even cut out a ability bar altogether.

[Vhaegrant]

One thing I have felt since the launch of this game is that there are FAR too many abilities for each player in this game.

 

Now, I would not suggest they should remove abilities for the sake of simplicity for all, since obviously that would likely upset those folks that enjoy the diversity and range of choices/rotations. What I would suggest, however, is that perhaps there should be some kind of option to either upgrade a current ability or get a new one.

 

That change, if implemented, would give players a wider choice IMO....perhaps those that do not prefer more advanced play or PVP would choose a simpler build with upgraded abilities

 

That is not to say it would not have any problems...balance issues come into play. But, one could consider that perhaps this could be a path to offering a different rule set for PVP.

 

At any rate, what do you guys think? Would you be against a "simple mode" that would prune them down to 5 or 6 core abilities? If you like the idea, what kind of problems do you think this kind of system would present for the game?

 

Thanks for your time.

 

Replacing upgraded abilities already happens. They used to leave you with both the old ability and the new one from the discipline path, but as they were on the same timer and the new ability was always superior it was a bit pointless.

 

The last couple of expansions have had ability pruning, for example operatives lost orbital strike, as part of a balance pass. I don't see this being any different going forward.

 

If you are just playing solo pve you can already run a much reduced rotation.

 

If you keep your quick bars tidy and keep abilities that are shared across classes in the same places then you'll find things a lot easier. If anything I wish there were more abilities not less

[eriksarcasm]

Try having small girly hands. Keybinding all of some class abilities is just not possible unless you also use an MMO mouse, which I don't. Most don't fit nicely in my hand. So I end up half keybind, half clicker.. Which is probably the hardest way to play.

 

Have you tried the Red Dragon Perdition? It's very ergonomic, the 12 side buttons are arranged at angles which makes them easy to find in a rush, and it has pretty lights. It's not too big, I find it quite comfortable in my small sausage-fingered hands.

 

I use that mouse in conjunction with the controller half of the Venom-X, binding Shift and Ctrl to the 2 trigger buttons giving me 36 instantly available actions. I use the Advanced action bar setup which gives 4 action bars on screen, 3 of which can be triggered with shift or ctrl and a side button. The fourth action bar isn't for instant-use abilities like Quick Travel and OOC recharge, and can be clicked. So it really comes down to muscle memory as far as hitting a rotation. I also have the mouse wheel set to scroll to the remaining 2 quick bars (when I sub) which I use for Stealth and related abilities, Mounts, Toys and CC/tank abilities I never use.

 

You can also save and load various quick bar setups for different scenarios so you dont have to rearrange your bars every time you PvP, for example. I sometimes respec on my Shadow and like different QB setups for Infiltration and Serenity.

 

How do you move around and hit bound keys anyway? I could never get the hang of that.

[Wafflenator]

I've got to admit I've got a comfortable layout for my roughly 4 billion abilities across several bars, but I find the big problem for me is when it comes time to create alts of the same class. I confuse myself as to where to put those abilities to mirror my existing characters.

 

I think a certain game involving both War and Crafting has had relative success in their latest expansion with another fairly severe abiltiy-bloat prune. You'll always miss some abilities but sometimes it communicates a better intent from devs on what an optimal rotation is.

[Icykill_]

Have you tried the Red Dragon Perdition? It's very ergonomic, the 12 side buttons are arranged at angles which makes them easy to find in a rush, and it has pretty lights. It's not too big, I find it quite comfortable in my small sausage-fingered hands.

 

I use that mouse in conjunction with the controller half of the Venom-X, binding Shift and Ctrl to the 2 trigger buttons giving me 36 instantly available actions. I use the Advanced action bar setup which gives 4 action bars on screen, 3 of which can be triggered with shift or ctrl and a side button. The fourth action bar isn't for instant-use abilities like Quick Travel and OOC recharge, and can be clicked. So it really comes down to muscle memory as far as hitting a rotation. I also have the mouse wheel set to scroll to the remaining 2 quick bars (when I sub) which I use for Stealth and related abilities, Mounts, Toys and CC/tank abilities I never use.

 

You can also save and load various quick bar setups for different scenarios so you dont have to rearrange your bars every time you PvP, for example. I sometimes respec on my Shadow and like different QB setups for Infiltration and Serenity.

 

How do you move around and hit bound keys anyway? I could never get the hang of that.

 

I did look at the Red Dragon mice online. But that brand inst available in Australia and I hate ordering OS because it can cost more to ship than the actual product and if I have RAs it's too costly to send back.

Plus I'm over ordering mice I can't test my hand size on first. My hands are really small and I've got about 6 mice now and only one is semi comfortable. Unfortunately it's a FPS mouse, so I only have a few extra buttons, all in difficult spots for me, so I only use 2 of them.

I also hate full size keyboards. I prefer TKL mechanical keyboards so that my arms and neck don't get sore. The keys can sometimes be a bit smaller and easier to reach, but it's still to far for me.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Icykill_

[Icykill_]

I see that and raise you a tremor. My hands shake a little all the time, so I desperately need to keybind stuff. In the intensity of PvP, doing clicking, my hands can shake so bad that I can't get my mouse steady on what I need to click.

 

But yeah, for normal hands. Er, well, normal girly hands? Lol. I can see why that would be a pain.

 

LoL, I get that too. It really sucks.

I take some meds for a condition I have and they can sometimes cause my hands to shake. Add pvp adrenalin and caffeine and its all over the place. Happens the worst during my first 3-5 matches of the day if they are one after the other and intense. Then my body gets used to the adrenalin and I can ride the wave. Either that or I need to take a break from pvp till my hands stop shaking.

[Icykill_]

We do have ability bloat, no doubt about it...but I also enjoy how many situational skills I have to use at my disposal. As much as I understand the request, I would be very disappointed to have too many trimmed...I use all of mine at different times...but I understand the request.

 

Some could be combined or streamlined a little. I also wouldn't want to lose heaps, but some classes really do have too many

[Icykill_]

Not really, Do I use every ability? No but ones I don't use I bet other do. At the end of the day OP if you think there are to many just cut down on the ones there are or you just don't use. It not hard to remove any or even cut out a ability bar altogether.

 

I've done that, but in pvp, it is best to have all of them at your disposal. Obviously things like sabre strike for Sorcs can get removed from bars.

[LordArtemis]

Well, I think it's a good discussion. Some good points for and against, some good concerns raised by some folks, and of course the obvious caveat that one could simply ignore certain skills....

 

....still, that leaves core abilities that are not upgraded. I was considering an option to have fewer core abilities and simply upgrade them.

[Rolodome]

LoL, I get that too. It really sucks.

I take some meds for a condition I have and they can sometimes cause my hands to shake. Add pvp adrenalin and caffeine and its all over the place. Happens the worst during my first 3-5 matches of the day if they are one after the other and intense. Then my body gets used to the adrenalin and I can ride the wave. Either that or I need to take a break from pvp till my hands stop shaking.

Oh man, I know what you mean. Caffeine really puts it over the top. I quit it years ago cause my tremor is an "essential tremor," meaning it's just kind of there all the time and isn't tied to any other known condition. So for me, it was like... I can quit caffeine and have my tremor be moderately less bad most of the time, or I can drink it and be over the top most of the time.

 

I'm almost jealous of people who can just drink caffeine and they get an energy boost and a bit of a crash later. I can do it to a point with sugar, but I don't think sugar lasts nearly as long and it doesn't do my tremor any favors lol.

 

I thought I was the only one getting all intense into PvP matches like how you describe (I'm not even joking, I think I was going into warzones imagining that I'm the only one getting super adrenaline going). I too need to stop sometimes cause my hands are shaking so bad. It makes me think about why, because I used to PvP in Rift and I don't remember getting as intensely into it as I do here. I never really thought about it before, but I would bet it has to do with the fact that there are a lot of moments in SWTOR PvP where being literally one second off on something can change a game. Like a sap cap, for instance, or even just stealing a point in general.

 

I mean, now I'm thinking about it, virtually every objective map has situations where one second can make a big impact. Odessen is probably one of the most forgiving in this way, which would make sense, cause it's also the one that I tend to get the least intense about.

[Cuiwe]

This all depends on what "ability overload" means to you. I compiled data from dulfy's guides and here are my findings:

(utilities = abilities that are used sparsely to achieve an effect / DCD or OCD abilities)

 

Guardian:

Vigilance: 10 rotation + 6 utility

Focus: 10 rotation + 6 utility

 

Sentinel:

Watchman: 8 rotation + 8 utility

Combat: 8 rotation + 8 utility

Concentration: 8 rotation + 8 utility

 

Sage:

Seer: 8 rotation + 8 utility

TkT: 6 rotation + 8 utility

Balance: 8 rotation + 8 utility

 

Shadow:

Infiltration: 8 rotation + 8 utility

Serenity: 8 rotation + 8 utility

 

Commando:

Gunnery: 6 rotation + 8 utility

Assault Specialist: 8 rotation + 8 utility

 

Vanguard:

Tactics: 8 rotation + 8 utility

PlasmaTech : 8 rotation + 8 utility

 

Gunslinger:

Sharpshooter: 8 rotation + 8 utility

Dirty Fighting: 8 rotation + 8 utility

Saboteur: 12 rotation + 8 utility

 

Smuggler:

Scraper: 8 rotation + 8 utility

Ruffian: 8 rotation + 8 utility

 

Average: 8,22 rotation + 7,77 utility ~ 8 rotation + 8 utility

 

///

 

To me that's not really much. Would I prefer it was something like 6 + 6? Yes. I always felt that finely nuanced classes or disciplines that REALLY play(let alone feel) different are what's required, not to just lug around 40 skills and have bars everywhere on the screen. This is bad, ok(50 skills, omg): https://bigbrothergamer.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/52364738.jpg

edit: also THIS GEM is just stellar(in a very, very ****** manner), can we forget this era, please?:

https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/113691/wow_raid_interface.jpg

 

Otherwise, I wouldn't really say that there is an ability bloat. Some abilities could be combined and some could be removed, but then again, you can remove skills yourself. Don't just put EVERYTHING on the skill bar and then complain about the skill bloat. Stances, mounts(only your favourite deserves a place on the skill bar imo) and various other gizmos have no reason to be there! So remove it! If you are smart like that, you can put your entire rotation onto those 2 skill bars you get as a f2p just fine. Example of a skill I'd combine: Deliverance and Benevolence. They are mostly the same skill after Rejuvenate proc. So, why have two? In short this a conclusion:

 

1. Guardian has more active skills, yet less utility skills(perhaps do something with it?)

2. Saboteur still has 150% of an average number of skills(skill bloat could be perhaps seen here)

3. Some skills could be combined

4. 6 skill rotation with up to 10 skills on a sideboard / utility sloat would be PERFECT. But 8 + 8 is good too, can't complain.

 

edit edit: look at the crap UIs on this page O.o : http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/900687-Extremely-cluttered-funny-or-themed-UI-screenshots/page2 . THAT is ability bloat and ... S.H.I.T. **** me, really?

Edited September 21, 2016 by Cuiwe

[LordArtemis]

This all depends on what "ability overload" means to you. I compiled data from dulfy's guides and here are my findings:

(utilities = abilities that are used sparsely to achieve an effect / DCD or OCD abilities)

 

Guardian:

Vigilance: 10 rotation + 6 utility

Focus: 10 rotation + 6 utility

 

Sentinel:

Watchman: 8 rotation + 8 utility

Combat: 8 rotation + 8 utility

Concentration: 8 rotation + 8 utility

 

Sage:

Seer: 8 rotation + 8 utility

TkT: 6 rotation + 8 utility

Balance: 8 rotation + 8 utility

 

Shadow:

Infiltration: 8 rotation + 8 utility

Serenity: 8 rotation + 8 utility

 

Commando:

Gunnery: 6 rotation + 8 utility

Assault Specialist: 8 rotation + 8 utility

 

Vanguard:

Tactics: 8 rotation + 8 utility

PlasmaTech : 8 rotation + 8 utility

 

Gunslinger:

Sharpshooter: 8 rotation + 8 utility

Dirty Fighting: 8 rotation + 8 utility

Saboteur: 12 rotation + 8 utility

 

Smuggler:

Scraper: 8 rotation + 8 utility

Ruffian: 8 rotation + 8 utility

 

Average: 8,22 rotation + 7,77 utility ~ 8 rotation + 8 utility

 

///

 

To me that's not really much. Would I prefer it was something like 6 + 6? Yes. I always felt that finely nuanced classes or disciplines that REALLY play(let alone feel) different are what's required, not to just lug around 40 skills and have bars everywhere on the screen. This is bad, ok(50 skills, omg): https://bigbrothergamer.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/52364738.jpg

edit: also THIS GEM is just stellar(in a very, very ****** manner), can we forget this era, please?:

https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/113691/wow_raid_interface.jpg

 

Otherwise, I wouldn't really say that there is an ability bloat. Some abilities could be combined and some could be removed, but then again, you can remove skills yourself. Don't just put EVERYTHING on the skill bar and then complain about the skill bloat. Stances, mounts(only your favourite deserves a place on the skill bar imo) and various other gizmos have no reason to be there! So remove it! If you are smart like that, you can put your entire rotation onto those 2 skill bars you get as a f2p just fine. Example of a skill I'd combine: Deliverance and Benevolence. They are mostly the same skill after Rejuvenate proc. So, why have two? In short this a conclusion:

 

1. Guardian has more active skills, yet less utility skills(perhaps do something with it?)

2. Saboteur still has 150% of an average number of skills(skill bloat could be perhaps seen here)

3. Some skills could be combined

4. 6 skill rotation with up to 10 skills on a sideboard / utility sloat would be PERFECT. But 8 + 8 is good too, can't complain.

 

edit edit: look at the crap UIs on this page O.o : http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/900687-Extremely-cluttered-funny-or-themed-UI-screenshots/page2 . THAT is ability bloat and ... S.H.I.T. **** me, really?

 

It's a fair and informed point, but I would counter with something more general. Really, just looking at the "feel" of it all, which is why I opened it up for discussion.

 

After all, how it feels is naturally subjective. I feel it is a bit bloated, others may or may not. I think there is room for some consolidation, or perhaps moving some to utilities.