Does anyone else feel like they are not playing Star Wars anymore?

[Cedia]

Thank you for posting what I was feeling in my gut but couldn't put into words.

 

I'm really hoping that this whole Zakuul thing is a temporary side adventure and we go back to our respective sides once it's over. (I know, but I can hope.)

 

EA needs to give them enough resources to create two stories like they did for Makeb. Because this one size fits none thing isn't working. It isn't Star Wars just because there are glow sticks.

[gabigool]

Frankly, when people say they feel they aren't playing Star Wars with KOTFE, I suspect they didn't come to this game from being KOTOR fans. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I have a feeling that it's what's going on.

 

FWIW I did not play either KOTOR game, but am a huge fan of Star Wars. KotFE feels nothing like Star Wars to me. I did not feel that way pre-KotFE.

 

I've read quite a lot of the books though, and I'd become comfortable in this time period. Interestingly enough, of ALL the SW books I've ever read, the only series I stopped reading was the Yuuzhan Vong stuff after a few books. I see some similarities between that series and KotFE.

 

To me this time period needs to be about the two factions clawing for resources and worlds through proxies. A la most of the leveling stories. Even Makeb, which I enjoyed very much. The planet was interesting and beautiful, and fun to explore. Oricon to me was simply part of the DM story line which I enjoyed immensely, especially the two Operations. The final encounters in both were epic.

 

SoR seemed to be where it began to veer off course for me, But the temporary truce worked IMO because of Marr, who was probably my favorite character this game introduced. All considered, I enjoyed playing through SoR once I was past the pirate crap.

 

But then came KotFE. Marr gets killed in the first 5 minutes and gets replaced by Koth.

 

So perhaps you are correct. But I think for me, I think it is more likely that it is such a radical shift from the the first 4+ years of this game, combined with the fact that every drop of that content may have well never happened.

 

I understand a studio might need to hit the reset button. But don't hit it right before you're about to make a change to less meaningful content. For me the essence of SW has been the eternal conflict of Light vs. Dark regardless of their manifestations. The absence of that - or more accurately the artificial re-characterization of everything pre-KotFE onto the "light" in this meta - has changed it into something I don't know, like or want.

Edited August 19, 2016 by gabigool

[DarthDymond]

I've seen "Star Wars is about the Empire vs the Republic" comments more than a few times, but I never really could get 100% onboard with that.

 

None of the movies featured the Republic fighting the Empire (even agreeing that the Sith Empire and the Galactic Empire are interchangeable thematically / narratively) - even in Ep 7 it's the "Resistance" that the story focuses on fighting the latest iteration of the Empire, with the New Republic barely a background presence.

 

The closest we get to two galactic superpowers fighting (like the Empire and Republic do in vanilla SWTOR) is the Republic vs Separatists in Eps II-III, but the Seps never struck me as thematically analogous to the Empire. So I just struggle with seeing Star Wars as being "about" Empire vs Republic. I think the Alliance vs Zakuul dynamic is a lot closer to the feel of the Rebels vs Empire setup I think of when I think of Star Wars.

 

I can certainly appreciate the thought that Star Wars is about the Light vs the Dark, and that this expansion seems to run counter to that by having the Jedi and Sith working together in your Alliance (and your character potentially saying they've moved beyond the Light and Dark) against Zakuul, whose knights don't fit as easily into the Light v Dark dichotomy.

 

...but I personally don't mind that deviation because I prefer "enemy mine" team-ups and shades of grey over straight-forward black-and-white dichotomies.

 

Again, I don't disagree that it's not very "Star Wars"-y to go that route (which is why I eventually understood and got onboard with the EU retconning Vergere into a Sith, for example), but my favorite Star Wars stories tend to be the ones that push that line - the Fel Empire and Imperial Knights in Star Wars: Legacy and the Jacen/Vergere arc in New Jedi Order (pre-retcon) in particular. So it doesn't bug me here.

Edited August 19, 2016 by DarthDymond

[Andryah]

I can certainly appreciate the thought that Star Wars is about the Light vs the Dark, and that this expansion seems to run counter to that by having the Jedi and Sith working together in your Alliance (and your character potentially saying they've moved beyond the Light and Dark) against Zakuul, whose knights don't fit as easily into the Light v Dark dichotomy.

 

...but I personally don't mind that deviation because I prefer "enemy mine" team-ups and shades of grey over straight-forward black-and-white dichotomies.

 

Yeah... well the whole dark vs light thing only really applies for force users. Everything else lore wise about the conflict in the movies is all generic (yet very creative) "good" vs "evil".... poached by Lucas directly out of the weekly movie serials in the theaters in the 40s/50s. He grew up on them, and was heavily influenced by them. His value add was to create a colorful sci fi fantasy lore framework to present it in that really caught on with fans back in the 70s and 80s. And I think it was not so much the movies as the broad and expansive merchandizing, books, games, etc.. to keep the themes alive after he quit making SW movies for 20 years.

 

We now have an expanded timeline of thousands of years for the SW universe... after only 39 real years of fandom. And that timeline covers all manner of "good" vs "evil themes, protagonists, antagonists, etc. So I think people would benefit from stepping out of their narrow movie theme fixation and let the SW universe continue to expand and evolve as it has done since 1977. At the end of the day, it is really nothing more then a well liked platform for the classic "good" vs "evil screenplays/books/games.

Edited August 19, 2016 by Andryah

[ThrakhathSpawn]

Its not the introduction of a new enemy, even if it were still Republic vs Empire, they would be making bad content.

 

The core of the issue - is a lack of good moral content. Star Wars was good vs evil, it had bad guys, it had good guys, it had men, it had women. It was light and dark, and not all gray.

 

With KOTFE, there isn't a character introduced that I've found my character being a man or woman made a difference. In content before SOR, things would be quite different based on this distinction. Gender has been removed, and the moral social structure of the game is much weaker. This creates a lot of blah. The difference of male and female make life far more interesting, remove it, and things get a *lot* more boring *fast*.

 

The reactions to choices no longer indicates a universal moral code either, its just you might offend koth or lana, but nothing is presented as bad or good in consequence.

 

I took a week of from playing the game, and the lack of male/female in the current meta of the game is what has stood out the most to me to cause a lack of "star wars magic".

[MikeCobalt]

This isn't "Star Wars" and Less & Less all the time. I'm just waiting for something Canon with a story to come around.

[dirtykid]

SWTOR has never been about Republic versus Empire, not even at launch. The closest thing we had to a "battle" was Ilum World PvP and that was taken out. Warzones were always skirmishes and class stories vaguely mentioned the galactic war starting again in passing. The expansions have always focused on a third faction. The Star Wars you want has never been this game.

 

 

how was this never about empire v republic? This was one of the games launch trailers

[BenduKundalini]

 

how was this never about empire v republic? This was one of the games launch trailers

 

Right? I shiver at what other opinions someone capable of falling to such fallacies may produce...

[Rolodome]

FWIW I did not play either KOTOR game, but am a huge fan of Star Wars. KotFE feels nothing like Star Wars to me. I did not feel that way pre-KotFE.

 

I've read quite a lot of the books though, and I'd become comfortable in this time period. Interestingly enough, of ALL the SW books I've ever read, the only series I stopped reading was the Yuuzhan Vong stuff after a few books. I see some similarities between that series and KotFE.

 

To me this time period needs to be about the two factions clawing for resources and worlds through proxies. A la most of the leveling stories. Even Makeb, which I enjoyed very much. The planet was interesting and beautiful, and fun to explore. Oricon to me was simply part of the DM story line which I enjoyed immensely, especially the two Operations. The final encounters in both were epic.

 

SoR seemed to be where it began to veer off course for me, But the temporary truce worked IMO because of Marr, who was probably my favorite character this game introduced. All considered, I enjoyed playing through SoR once I was past the pirate crap.

 

But then came KotFE. Marr gets killed in the first 5 minutes and gets replaced by Koth.

 

So perhaps you are correct. But I think for me, I think it is more likely that it is such a radical shift from the the first 4+ years of this game, combined with the fact that every drop of that content may have well never happened.

 

I understand a studio might need to hit the reset button. But don't hit it right before you're about to make a change to less meaningful content. For me the essence of SW has been the eternal conflict of Light vs. Dark regardless of their manifestations. The absence of that - or more accurately the artificial re-characterization of everything pre-KotFE onto the "light" in this meta - has changed it into something I don't know, like or want.

That's fair. It's possible that part of what you're noticing is a simple divergence from prior SWTOR stuff.

 

I will say, however, one of the things you said stood out to me, in relation to the lack of playing KOTOR. KOTOR 1 and 2 both definitely have LS/DS choices in them and there are certainly distinctive themes about light and dark in both games, but KOTOR 2 does diverge a bit from the typical narrative of Light=Good, Dark=Bad, and Revan's character in general hints at breaking that mold. In fact, I feel like the way they portrayed Revan in this game made him seem like much more of a dichotomy-following force-user than the more nuanced character that he was implied to be in the lore of KOTOR 1 and 2.

 

So it may be that the departure there... the idea that light and dark being a dichotomy is up for a debate, is something that doesn't bother me about KOTFE because I was slowly drawn into it with KOTOR 1 and 2. In those games, the way they presented it (in particular, KOTOR 2) was gradual, with a lot of room for contemplation and even disagreement. The way they portray it in KOTFE is a lot more "this is how it is"; from the very start, you have the concept of Zakuul shoved in your face, for instance, whether you like it or not.

 

In other words, I wouldn't go so far as to call KOTFE "KOTOR 3" (it's nowhere near good enough for me to even consider giving it that title) but I wonder if that's what they were aiming for, was a true sequel to KOTOR, or a reboot of its themes, if nothing else. Essentially picking up where the themes of KOTOR 2 ended and taking it to its next step of evolution. As it is, without going into spoilers in case you ever want to go back and play the KOTOR games, one of the characters in KOTOR 2 isn't that far off from how Valkorion acts towards you.

 

I highly recommend playing the original KOTOR sometime. Even if you've already encountered spoilers, it's just really solidly put together as a game and story on every level. KOTOR 2 is an ok sequel and has some interesting themes, but got rush-released and even with the free restoration mod out there, it doesn't truly feel "complete," so I'd only recommend that one if you try KOTOR and love it.

 

Oh and... I think KOTOR 1 is pretty well in line with the kind of themes you feel are Star Wars. It's more KOTOR 2 that diverges from those themes.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Its not the introduction of a new enemy, even if it were still Republic vs Empire, they would be making bad content.

 

The core of the issue - is a lack of good moral content. Star Wars was good vs evil, it had bad guys, it had good guys, it had men, it had women. It was light and dark, and not all gray.

 

Since a few or even severalk years, "grey" is the new fashion in gaming. People want things to be "grey", especially more mature players. They also believe that hard borders between light & dark are "childish" and not "interesting" enough anymore (similar to colourfulness : Colourfulness is considered "childish" full scale - how many colourful games do you remember being made by bigger firms for the PC in the recent years ?).

 

In my opinion, PC gaming has severely degenerated : Only a few genres are dominating everything : War games, ego-shooters, horror and post-apoclyptic settings. And neither of them are colourful. But they all are grey. Remember the colour shift from Star Wars Battlefront 1 to SW Battlefront 2 ? That crap ?

 

If you want to play something colourful, then you ... are "adviced" to play "Hello Kitty" by those who bsolutely LOVE dark and grey gaming. Especially by PvP players. Dominating others is everything, according to them. Probablyan aftermath of school time, where they all were merely pupils, my wild guess is.

Or Mario. On consoles. Colourfulness is there on consoles and in iDevices. Not on the PC.

 

And, yes, I take this "colourfulness" as a symbol for a lot of the current trends in gaming now.

[ZETA_SCORPII]

The story now is way better than the trash one Lucas gave us.

[ZanyaCross]

The story now is way better than the trash one Lucas gave us.

 

5/10 Good attempt, but way too obvious.

[KaitoX]

My hope is that after KOTET is done,we can finally take a break from the whole third faction story and go back to the war between the Sith Empire and the Republic. I understand the whole "we must work together to destroy this new threat that will destroy us both) idea but I feel it loses it's uniqueness and importance when these "grand threats" just keep popping up one after another.

 

In my opinion,we could use a break from this and should go back to the original war for 1 or 2 expansions at least.We don't need a story line for each class but imo we need 2 faction storylines with force and non-force user variations where we aren't forced to play lightside if we want to get anything done.

 

I understand the whole working together with the opposite side temporarily to defeat a bigger threat but i didn't join the Sith Empire so I can hold hands with the Jedi all the time and i didn't join the Republic so i can hold hands with Sith all the time.

Edited August 21, 2016 by KaitoX

[Ralei]

 

I took a week of from playing the game, and the lack of male/female in the current meta of the game is what has stood out the most to me to cause a lack of "star wars magic".

 

That is an .... interesting..... opinion that makes me slightly suspicious.

[denavin]

It's star-warsy enough for me. I'm not a fanatic about every last part of the story. Part of the reason for setting SWTOR 3000 years prior to any of the movies/books was to give the content developers and story writers some leeway for variation.

 

Thank you ....Somebody that actuality read the lore for SWTOR and remembered that this story takes place 3000 years before Darth Vader or Luke Skywalker were even born. Its a different time, different ideal to A New Hope. There are Light Sabers, Blasters, Jedi, Sith, Storm Troopers ( that still can not hit the target), Good in the Republic and Evil in the Empire, Space Travel and of course let us not for get the Force.

 

No it does not conform to the current version of Star Wars but then again it was 3000 years in the past. "A Long Time Ago in a Galaxy Far Far Away" still applies to SWTOR.

[Ethern]

But regardless of whether it's 3000 years prior the main trilogy or not, my Dark Side V Sith Lord did not feel like a Sith lord at all.

When Jorgan told him "you saved a lot of lives today" that was the final nail in the coffin.

[lilathrone]

It both feels Star Wars for me, yet something new.

I love it, SW can't be always about the same republic - empire plot, it needs something new, and this is exactly what BW did, and in my opinion they got it right with Zakuul.

Many ppl complained about Force Awakens, because it's more of the same as prequel movies. They should do the same as BW dud, create something new in the Star Wars universe, it's far more risky, but you can't retell the same story over and over again forever.

[TUXs]

It both feels Star Wars for me, yet something new.

I love it, SW can't be always about the same republic - empire plot, it needs something new, and this is exactly what BW did, and in my opinion they got it right with Zakuul.

Many ppl complained about Force Awakens, because it's more of the same as prequel movies. They should do the same as BW dud, create something new in the Star Wars universe, it's far more risky, but you can't retell the same story over and over again forever.

It's not Empire vs Republic, it's GOOD vs EVIL. Read Ethern's post directly above yours for why it's failed in his opinion.

[Audoucet]

But regardless of whether it's 3000 years prior the main trilogy or not, my Dark Side V Sith Lord did not feel like a Sith lord at all.

When Jorgan told him "you saved a lot of lives today" that was the final nail in the coffin.

 

Me too.

 

Well, it was the final nail in HIS coffin, anyway.

[Wolfgangpiffath]

Pretty much what "Belpheghor" said:

 

"We all grew up watching Jedi and Sith fighting, not holding hands."

[Audoucet]

Pretty much what "Belpheghor" said:

 

"We all grew up watching Jedi and Sith fighting, not holding hands."

 

I actually think that my main problem with SW, is George Lucas' conversion, to Buddhism.

 

Originally, there was no "Light", just "The Force", and "The Dark Side of the Force", it was a more "Christian" view. The Force was just nature, not inherently good or evil, just like Eden's garden, and the Dark Side, was everything unnatural, brought to nature by intelligent creatures : Anger, greed, passion, fear of loss... Just like mankind ate the "Apple" in christianism, bringing "Evil" in the world, intelligent creatures created the Dark Side. Bringing balance was destroying the Dark Side.

 

The problem is, later, it was turned into a more Buddhist world view. And not even a real buddhist view, but a "buddhism viewed through christian lenses" view. Yin/Yang never was about good and evil, in actual Oriental philosophy. The classic Light-Side Jedi way, is actually really akin to actual Buddhism.

 

Now, and ever since the Mortis Arc, SW is about a strange balance between "the Light side" and "the Dark side", as if the Jedi were unbalanced, being not enough about death and suffering... Even though they are actually are, since THEY are the ones to accept death and a natural part of life, and THEY are the ones not trying to impose a certain lifestyle in the galaxy. I know I know, one can always bring some EU stuff to contradict me, but my point is that the core cosmogony has changed, around the time of Ep 1. And such a view is cemented by Disney's Rebels S3, and SW Ep7. I accept the change, they are the boss and I am nothing but a fan, but I don't like that change. Mainly because I don't see it making any sense, when looking at the actual facts.

[ikinai]

I actually think that my main problem with SW, is George Lucas' conversion, to Buddhism.

 

Originally, there was no "Light", just "The Force", and "The Dark Side of the Force", it was a more "Christian" view. The Force was just nature, not inherently good or evil, just like Eden's garden, and the Dark Side, was everything unnatural, brought to nature by intelligent creatures : Anger, greed, passion, fear of loss... Just like mankind ate the "Apple" in christianism, bringing "Evil" in the world, intelligent creatures created the Dark Side. Bringing balance was destroying the Dark Side.

 

The problem is, later, it was turned into a more Buddhist world view. And not even a real buddhist view, but a "buddhism viewed through christian lenses" view. Yin/Yang never was about good and evil, in actual Oriental philosophy. The classic Light-Side Jedi way, is actually really akin to actual Buddhism.

 

Now, and ever since the Mortis Arc, SW is about a strange balance between "the Light side" and "the Dark side", as if the Jedi were unbalanced, being not enough about death and suffering... Even though they are actually are, since THEY are the ones to accept death and a natural part of life, and THEY are the ones not trying to impose a certain lifestyle in the galaxy. I know I know, one can always bring some EU stuff to contradict me, but my point is that the core cosmogony has changed, around the time of Ep 1. And such a view is cemented by Disney's Rebels S3, and SW Ep7. I accept the change, they are the boss and I am nothing but a fan, but I don't like that change. Mainly because I don't see it making any sense, when looking at the actual facts.

 

Actually Lucas based a lot of it off of the samurai Bushido code, not Buddhism. Nor is it a particular view of any religion. It was simply good vs evil, how one perceives this is mostly based on their personal views. The story is simply that of the heroes journey. A tale that has been told since before we wrote things down.

[Deewe]

Interestingly enough, of ALL the SW books I've ever read, the only series I stopped reading was the Yuuzhan Vong stuff after a few books. I see some similarities between that series and KotFE.

Glad to see I'm not the only one.

 

Both for stopping reading the Yuuzhan Vong and having a feeling of deja vu in KotFE.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Glad to see I'm not the only one.

 

Never read that, too. I vaguely read about what happened, but ... urgh.

[mathol]

Just a feeling I can not shake for a few month now: to me Star Wars is all about the Empire and Republic - "perfect army" and technical ingenious against human spirit and willingness to go as many extra miles as it takes to do the right thing.

It's about the Force and it's inherit duality and ethereal struggle for balance that will never resolve itself - the light and dark at constant opposites, pushing things to move, change and evolve.

It's about the Jedi and the Sith - both sides sacrificing in their own ways, paying the price to touch something grater than any single human.

It's although about the small stuff - the ships, the droids, the multitude of aliens - seeing the places that I love or heard about...

And lately there has been NON of that. Absolutely nothing - Zakuul is... Not Star Wars to me. I can't wrap my head around this "grand power with all new understanding of force" existing and not being mentioned or referenced anywhere else in Star Wars history ever again, it's like Bioware added an elephant in to a small tightly packed china shop!

There is no empire or republic now, and ideologically I'm not really sure if Zakuul stands for anything at all... Does it?

The force is some... Amorphous gray thing all of a sudden - everywhere in the Star Wars lore, including many thousand years later, it's polar, and here it... Not? Are they sure they are talking about the same Force thing? Or is it just some kind of "Zakuul magic" thing instead?

And finally the places, the ships, droids and aliens... Suddenly we have non of that - instead just.... Knight in armor, that does not even look much as anything SW to me... With gloving spears. And the same "sky troopers" that let's admit it - are boring. Nothing to make me thing of Star Wars lore what so ever.

What surprises me the most, is that they decided to stop doing SW environments and stories just when the movies came out - so many people who loved them would want to play a SW game... Except that the latest content does not invoke the SW vibe any longer. I sometimes feel that I could as well download a light saber mode for Skyrim and I'll get the same "Star Wars experience".

Sorry for the long post, maybe I'm just venting... But I can't shake the feeling and I find it frustrating. I just want the same feels that I got from riding over Tatooin dunes again, or seeing what Alderaan looked like before...

 

Well if it's any consolation, Star Wars the Old Republic - Knight's of the Fallen Empire, is actually not canon anymore after Disney cut Star Wars lore by the balls.

So that may be why?